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[RionaaM]

I see things has escalated quickly.

I can't believe someone actually made a "she was probably asking for it" argument though.

I can believe it. If it exists, someone will defend it on GAF. Luckily they tend to be banned pretty quickly. In this case, that guy has added personal insults to the mix, which is very important when you're trying to excuse something indefensible.

 

[Fliesen]

How do you expect women to deliver proof of sexual harassment? Walk around with a camera all day?

And even when they do (like in those catcalling videos) people will downplay the harassment ("just compliments!") or say it's selectively edited.

Even if there's proof, the goalposts will be shifted further.
Because then it'll be weak proof, wrong proof, fake proof, it'll only prove "bad flirting", it will "miss context". Let's not kid ourselves here :/

 

[Zakalwe]

It actually amazes me when people make comments like "I can't believe he said that", "who would say that", etc... not because it isn't awful, but because it's so damn common.

I pick and choose my friends so that part of my life is cultivated nicely, but outside of them I hear this kind of talk all the time.

People acting like it's rare, the reality is it's everywhere. This is probably why so many thin-skinned men rush to defend the accused over the potential victim, they don't want themselves to be held up to the same scrutiny.

 

[Kurdel]

I pick and choose my friends so that part of my life is cultivated nicely, but outside of them I hear this kind of talk all the time.

You hear people, within a professional context, ask inappropriate sexual questions all the time? Where do you live?

 

[boiled goose]

Like you said, everyone has a different sense of humor and a female might not laugh and smile if everyone told her she was sucking the boss off. Regardless, you are entitled to think whatever you like but we'll never see eye to eye here.

That joke regardless of gender is not appropriate for a professional settings. PERIOD. Even if the target doesn't find it offensive, other people might and it creates a toxic, not inclusive work environment.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

How do we know that it's tolerated? We don't know whether this happened on company time, if anyone noticed it or if she reported it to someone at ND.

We know so little about the situation that I find it weird to attack ND instead of just the prick who made that comment

I agree completely.

 

[DataGhost]

I'm going off the bat and I'd need to have proof of this. I understand all these allegations coming out can be true. But I don't want this to become another Trump has sexually assaulted me thing or the Twitter campaign about people being raped to stand up against it.

If it's a true allegation and it actually happened then that's gotta get fixed pronto ND needs to clean house of anyone who is treating people like this, but if they are false then that's just muddying the waters for the people who do have a legit allegation, and then that opens up people to throw back that they are lying, and it'll ruin it for everyone.

Unfortunately, there likely isn't proof. Not everything is on the record. However, I choose to give a bit more credit to a reporter who could potentially staging their career vs an ex employee who could simply be frustrated. This doesn't mean I don't trust David, but without more to go on, that leads to a dead end. I'm just thankful these incidents are coming out now due to recent events.

 

[MysteryQuesadilla]

Harassment is a chain of repeated hostile acts aimed at psychologically weakening the individual who is the victim. Not sure that it 's the case here.

Most workplaces don't define it as "repeated" acts and I'm not sure why it would be. If you make a single improper comment or motion towards a coworker or associate, that can be defined as sexual harassment.

 

[TheFatMan]

Damn I hope ND is doing some internal investigation at this point.

It's getting harder for them to write this off as something they can brush under the rug because of no proof at this point.

How they respond to this sort of thing will tell us a lot about them as a company.

 

[Zakalwe]

You hear people, within a professional context, ask inappropriate sexual questions all the time? Where do you live?

UK.

I worked at a finance company, around 250 staff. Our department had people between the ages of 20-60.

I was there for 3 years. This it was rife. "Just office banter".

I see guys cat call in London all the time, just yesterday a girl was sitting at the window of the coffee shop I was in and a guy walked up to the window and just leered at her. I saw him and blurted out "what the fuck are you doing?" far too loudly, he just smiled and walked off.

Guys asking girls for a fuck in the street, seen a guy standing far too close to a woman on the tube while it was nowhere near crowded, this stuff is everywhere.

 

[Bonfires Down]

For once I actually agree with with gaf that this shit is unacceptable.

 

[Boke1879]

I'm wondering the age of this person and why they felt so damn comfortable to say this.

I know people say crass and crude shit all the time to people THEY KNOW. But this person just felt the need to say it.

I wonder if we're going to be dealing with a generation of people that have had very limited social interactions with others of the opposite gender and they just feel saying shit like this is ok.

 

[darkside31337]

I wouldn't be shocked to hear that actually there are other companies and websites that have these dirt bags in their groups though,

unfortunately I feel there will be a shower of these events coming soon, makes me feel sick.

Some of them were even at Polygon.

The idea that entire companies of 200+ people should be judged based on the actions of a single person or a few people is something I find insane.

I totally believe her, theres no reason she'd make it up. I also can't believe there are people in here defending this kind of behavior. Its unfortunate this is commonplace everywhere though.

 

[GitarooMan]

I don't know what work environments some of you guys work in, but in any that I've worked in that would not remotely fly as a "joke" in any context. That's an absurd take.

 

[Fliesen]

I'm wondering the age of this person and why they felt so damn comfortable to say this.

I know people say crass and crude shit all the time to people THEY KNOW. But this person just felt the need to say it.

I wonder if we're going to be dealing with a generation of people that have had very limited social interactions with others of the opposite gender and they just feel saying shit like this is ok.

are you implying it has gotten worse? because i don't think any previous generation was any more progressive / respectful towards women than the current.
it's just a shame that we haven't progressed quite as far as we thought we had.

 

[manhack]

While this stuff is widespread, it is not common at every workplace. Most of the places I've been would not put up with people who act like this and there is a reason I'm not at the places that do.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

UK.

I worked at a finance company, around 250 staff. Our department had people between the ages of 20-60.

I was there for 3 years. This stuff was rife. "Just office banter".

Finance industry in the UK is abhorrent and known for this kind of adolescent BS.

The assholes you see in finance aren't ubiquitous across all industries and sectors in the UK.

I work in engineering and I can guarantee that anyone caught saying something as gross as this would be reported and fired on the spot. This kind of shit isn't tolerated elsewhere.

 

[Blam]

How do you expect women to deliver proof of sexual harassment? Walk around with a camera all day?

I mean I'm not asking that. Sure it'll be difficult to get proof of sexual harassment especially in a case like this, but I guess I'm just expecting too much.

every woman should wear a body cam just so that when sexual harassment happens Blam can have proof that it did

Dude you're acting like I said sexual harassment doesn't happen. I didn't say that at all. I just want more proof of these things happening. If it's possible. Nice job skewing my words.

Unfortunately, there likely isn't proof. Not everything is on the record. However, I choose to give a bit more credit to a reporter who could potentially staging their career vs an ex employee who could simply be frustrated. This doesn't mean I don't trust David, but without more to go on, that leads to a dead end. I'm just thankful these incidents are coming out now due to recent events.

Yeah I'm not dismissing this at all. It's just I don't want this to get out of hand that's all. I completely get where you're coming from, and I'm also thankful that these incidents are coming out since they shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

[Sweep14]

Most workplaces don't define it as "repeated" acts and I'm not sure why it would be. If you make a single improper comment or motion towards a coworker or associate, that can be defined as sexual harassment.

Well the dictionaries I checked all talk about a persistent disturbing or repeated attacks when defining harassment so there needs to be a form of repetition for those acts to qualify no ?

 

[Inspectah_Deck]

I'm trying to be respectful here but you guys know people get capital punishment based on accusations or little to no evidence right? Innocent men/women receiving capital punishment. It's part of the reason why some people are against the death penalty. It's extremely dangerous to just go out and believe what anyone says. Everyone is due a fair trail and everyone is innocent until proven guilty. That's how it works.

You realize that she didn't drop a name?

 

[Zakalwe]

Finance industry in the UK is abhorrent and known for this kind of adolescent BS.

The assholes you see in finance aren't ubiquitous across all industries and sectors in the UK.

I work in engineering and I can guarantee that anyone caught saying something as gross as this would be reported and fired on the spot. This kind of shit isn't tolerated elsewhere.

It's not limited to a professional setting, though.

My main point is that even if you're not seeing it at work the amount of men with this mindset is probably quite staggering.

 

[Toxi]

You see this everywhere. Movies. Music. Any industry with a fanbase. There will always be a shocking number of people willing to excuse literally any behavior as long as they are entertained.

 

[D1renegade]

Is this what shooting your shot looks like?

Definitely inappropriate and too distasteful for a work setting. But I think it’s less of an issue if they were off the clock and out having drinks or something.

 

[Renna Hazel]

That joke regardless of gender is not appropriate for a professional settings. PERIOD. Even if the target doesn't find it offensive, other people might and it creates a toxic, not inclusive work environment.

Correct, it's not OK. I was just merely pointing out that one thing can be harassment to someone, even if that one guys friend is cool with it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I mean I'm not asking that. Sure it'll be difficult to get proof of sexual harassment especially in a case like this, but I guess I'm just expecting too much.

It is expecting too much, because unless someone happens to record it somehow, you are not going to get proof beside what people say happened.

 

[DataGhost]

Well the dictionaries I checked all talk about a persistent disturbing or repeated attacks when defining harassment so there needs to be a form of repetition for those acts to qualify no ?

So doing it once is fine?
Going by your definition as long as you only do it once, you're free to do it.

That's a terrible mentality to have. This is harassment plain and simple. Even if it's a one time thing. Not everything is by the textbook definition

 

[Phoenix RISING]

jfc the complete lack of self awareness on some people (the dev not her) is astounding. Like how ****ed up or developmentally stunted do you have to be to think it's okay to ask something like that in a professional setting, even if you are joking?

When I was in academia, this would cost you your job if you were an administrator, or jeopardize your tenure (if you are tenured, well, it's a lot more difficult to oust you).

Since I have moved out of the Ivory Tower to corporate, men say these things on the regular, and it's even worse when no women are present. And that's just at the regular worksite. If work requires travel, and we're among women that we don't see every day? WHEW!!!

The things that came out of this one guy's mouth when we were eating lunch at a mall three years ago...vile. Since, he's had two promotions and just got married. SMH.

I wonder if we're going to be dealing with a generation of people that have had very limited social interactions with others of the opposite gender and they just feel saying **** like this is ok.

I blame porn culture.

 

[Shifty1897]

Very rarely does a GIF speak on multiple levels. Good job.

 

[Fliesen]

Is this what shooting your shot looks like?

Definitely inappropriate and too distasteful for a work setting. But I think it's less of an issue if they were off the clock and out having drinks or something.

Which wasn't the case here. She had just "introduced herself as a reporter" to (un)said dev. - so why even bring that up?
It'd be even less of an issue during sexual roleplay between two consenting adults. But why don't we just stick with what has happened?

 

[bigpumbaa]

People saying it’s the actions of a few individuals don’t seem to understand that these “big comments” (spoken to an outsider, member of the PRESS no less) are indicators of a corporate culture of acceptance of “Little comments” internally, and with less exaggerated language.

It’s about tolerating this shit and letting it get this bad. This isn’t one comment to one reporter, it’s a sign that this is something that’s cultural at ND.

Sexual harassment isn’t the weather. It’s not like a strong case of sexual harassment just happens out of nowhere randomly and happens again.

Our culture supports this overall, and more specifically NDs culture has to have supported or at least ignored/empowered this sort of talk.

Again. I don’t even have to know any other accusations to know this stuff doesn’t just pop out of nowhere. Especially to an EXTERNAL REPORTER. It didn’t happen because he was dumb or had a momentary lapse of judgement. It happened because he thought he would get away with it and had previously.

Or, even worse, it’s been normalized to him.

 

[DataGhost]

Is this what shooting your shot looks like?

Definitely inappropriate and too distasteful for a work setting. But I think it’s less of an issue if they were off the clock and out having drinks or something.

Less of an issue? Sexual harassment is sexual harassment. I don't see why it would be less of an issue

 

[MysteryQuesadilla]

Well the dictionaries I checked all talk about a persistent disturbing or repeated attacks when defining harassment so there needs to be a form of repetition for those acts to qualify no ?

No. You cannot use a "well actualllyyyy..." type defense if your boss/HR department notes an incident that conflicts with any company policy. Also, just because it was (maybe) a one-time "bad joke" doesn't magically make it not sexual harassment as it's implied the person making the comment is implying this person will get a professional favor for sexual acts.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

It's not limited to a professional setting, though.

My main point is that even if you're not seeing it at work the amount of men with this mindset is probably quite staggering.

Well in the context of your previous post, a professional setting it what we're all discussing because that's one of the few areas where bad behavior like this can and should be checked.

It's not surprise to anyone that we live in a global society filled with a staggering number of shitty people. But your original claim seemed to suggest that behavior like this was common even in formal and professional settings, which it clearly isn't (outside of some sectors like finance and banking).

 

[Zakalwe]

Well in the context of your previous post, a professional setting it what we're all discussing because that's one of the few areas where bad behavior like this can and should be checked.

It's not surprise to anyone that we live in a global society filled with a staggering number of shitty people. But your original claim seemed to suggest that behavior like this was common even in formal and professional settings, which it clearly isn't (outside of some sectors like finance and banking).

It's common in pub work, restaurant work, construction, etc... It's common in tech, media, etc... so yes, it is rife. It's not just finance.

My ex works in post production and gets it daily.

And that's besides the point really. This next post says it perfectly:

People saying it's the actions of a few individuals don't seem to understand that these ”big comments" (spoken to an outsider, member of the PRESS no less) are indicators of a corporate culture of acceptance of ”Little comments" internally, and with less exaggerated language.

It's about tolerating this shit and letting it get this bad. This isn't one comment to one reporter, it's a sign that this is something that's cultural at ND.

Sexual harassment isn't the weather. It's not like a strong case of sexual harassment just happens out of nowhere randomly and happens again.

Our culture supports this overall, and more specifically NDs culture has to have supported or at least ignored/empowered this sort of talk.

Again. I don't even have to know any other accusations to know this stuff doesn't just pop out of nowhere. Especially to an EXTERNAL REPORTER. It didn't happen because he was dumb or had a momentary lapse of judgement. It happened because he thought he would get away with it and had previously.

Or, even worse, it's been normalized to him.

It's normalised and it's everywhere.

 

[Boke1879]

are you implying it has gotten worse? because i don't think any previous generation was any more progressive / respectful towards women than the current.
it's just a shame that we haven't progressed quite as far as we thought we had.

No definitely not, but just look at this industry as a whole and the people who play games.

These are the kids growing up saying racial and sexual slurs during online games. Hell watching big youtubers now say those things and defending them etc.

These are the kids and young adults that will go on to get said jobs in this gaming industry and many others.

 

[mcfrank]

Most workplaces don't define it as "repeated" acts and I'm not sure why it would be. If you make a single improper comment or motion towards a coworker or associate, that can be defined as sexual harassment.

The legal definition, at least in California, is that it is persistent. I work in management and have to attend training once a year, and that word is always used.

 

[ComputerBlue]

People saying it's the actions of a few individuals don't seem to understand that these ”big comments" (spoken to an outsider, member of the PRESS no less) are indicators of a corporate culture of acceptance of ”Little comments" internally, and with less exaggerated language.
.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Maybe among groups of friends but not with just any old co-worker. If you've worked in an office you probably at some point got involved or were witness to something similar to what's happening in the entertainment industry and that's not usually the case from my experience. It's very often one or two very bad apples that keep it among themselves until they slip up and say it to the wrong person who finally has the courage to come out and try to put an end to it.

I think it's far more likely in smaller workgroups than large ones such as ND. Inexcusable if they knew it let it go either way though.

 

[Soul of the Beast]

So.......when is The Last of Us II coming out?

 

[DataGhost]

People saying it’s the actions of a few individuals don’t seem to understand that these “big comments” (spoken to an outsider, member of the PRESS no less) are indicators of a corporate culture of acceptance of “Little comments” internally, and with less exaggerated language.

It’s about tolerating this shit and letting it get this bad. This isn’t one comment to one reporter, it’s a sign that this is something that’s cultural at ND.

Sexual harassment isn’t the weather. It’s not like a strong case of sexual harassment just happens out of nowhere randomly and happens again.

Our culture supports this overall, and more specifically NDs culture has to have supported or at least ignored/empowered this sort of talk.

Again. I don’t even have to know any other accusations to know this stuff doesn’t just pop out of nowhere. Especially to an EXTERNAL REPORTER. It didn’t happen because he was dumb or had a momentary lapse of judgement. It happened because he thought he would get away with it and had previously.

Or, even worse, it’s been normalized to him.

Agreed. If the company culture allows these comments and let's them off add tiny jokes, this is a problem. It's unfortunate the company, Naughty Dog, in question is known and officially stated to be non tolerant of this behavior. It may be the fact they actually don't see these as sexual harassment and this forgive these minor incidents.

 

[Zakalwe]

No definitely not, but just look at this industry as a whole and the people who play games.

These are the kids growing up saying racial and sexual slurs during online games. Hell watching big youtubers now say those things and defending them etc.

These are the kids and young adults that will go on to get said jobs in this gaming industry and many others.

Gamer culture is toxic a lot of the time, but from my experience with young adults over the last few years they're far more switched on to things like gender politics, sexual identify, etc... things that come with the inherent idea of respect and acceptance.

Anecdotal, of course.

 

[TangoAlphaLima]

Milkshake Drake?

 

[DataGhost]

The legal definition, at least in California, is that it is persistent. I work in management and have to attend training once a year, and that word is always used.

I believe this is a problem of California's legal definition because by that definition one off incidents here and there will be tolerated, which shouldn't. Then we would have people consistently behaving like this, doing it but making it not seem persistent.

 

[Theslammer]

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Maybe among groups of friends but not with just any old co-worker. If you've worked in an office you probably at some point got involved or were witness to something similar to what's happening in the entertainment industry and that's not usually the case from my experience. It's very often one or two very bad apples that keep it among themselves until they slip up and say it to the wrong person who finally has the courage to come out and try to put an end to it.

I think it's far more likely in smaller workgroups than large ones such as ND. Inexcusable if they knew it let it go either way though.

Either this or it's a young person who recently started, had a looser mouth with his friends, and hasn't figured out how professional culture is and that not every John or Jane wants to hear that.

If someone thinks a company with 200 people won't have at least one saying inappropriate things, that person is kidding himself. It doesn't mean it's acceptable, but I'd basically have to conclude every industry and every company on the planet is bad since this stuff is more pervasive than people realize.

 

[SteveO409]

Naughty dog is dead to me

 

[Kin5290]

Which is still sexual harassment. Joke or not. That's super inappropriate on a work place.

Unless the journalist has provided more context we still don’t even know if this shitty joke was made in a work setting.

Also, depending on the context, an unwelcome sexual advance (which this appears to have been) is not necessarily sexual harassment, namely if this happened in a social setting. Sexist as hell, for sure, but not anything similar to sexual harassment.

 

[MysteryQuesadilla]

The legal definition, at least in California, is that it is persistent. I work in management and have to attend training once a year, and that word is always used.

This wouldn't make even a one-time incident ok in any professional setting.

 

[Glendemonium]

GAF - There are a few complete assholes that work at ND, they should close the entire studio down and make hundreds of employees lose their jobs.

Logic - Well obviously it isn't cool that this is happening and action should be taken, but there are plenty of innocent people just doing their jobs that aren't involved in this in the slightest, we should investigat-

GAF - BURN. IT. DOWN. IT'S. ALL. TAINTED.


:\

Heh, accurate. It's childish to punish an entire entity for the actions of one (or a few).

But seriously the company just needs to do an investigation, get the name of the supposed harasser, the employee may or may not work there anymore as far as we know. Also this should be a lesson to anyone who gets harassed just to stand up and take action now, don't put it off career be damned.

 

[jacobeid]

Hot take: If you have to rely on various definitions to determine whether or not something constitutes sexual harassment, maybe that thing shouldn't have been said at all.

 

[Zakalwe]

Unless the journalist has provided more context we still don't even know if this shitty joke was made in a work setting.

Also, depending on the context, an unwelcome sexual advance (which this appears to have been) is not necessarily sexual harassment, namely if this happened in a social setting. Sexist as hell, for sure, but not anything similar to sexual harassment.

Is she likely to be speaking about it the way she is if it was any way reciprocal?

I mean, what's the most likely outcome here?

It's not like she's named a name and we need to gather evidence to make sure the accused is treated justly, this is a comment on the toxicity of male privilege that is common in our culture.

Hot take: If you have to rely on various definitions to determine whether or not something constitutes sexual harassment, maybe that thing shouldn't have been said at all.

You'd think, huh?

 

[AkimbO_Arcana]

To those asking for proof: Have you ever heard of the term 'definatory power' before?