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[ZanDatsu]

I do think games are moving in a more positive direction in regards to the things you're talking about, particularly indie games. It's encouraging to see and I think the trend will continue. Good post btw, and sorry to hear you've had to deal with so much shit just for expressing yourself in an honest (and brave) way.

 

[HStallion]

How so?

I think it's fairly obvious most aren't interested in the open minded discourse they go on and on about and claimed GAF lacked and made it such a terrible place.

 

[Steel]

You've got to be joking.

LiberalGAF doxxes, jeers and harasses centrists and right leaning users, labeling them and lumping them into a neat little pile you called racist, sexist, GamerGaters, and white supremacist, and as soon as the climate changes you ask for empathy?

I tend to avoid political discussions on GAF ever since I got called every name in the book for revealing I voted for Gary Johnson, so you won't here anything from me, but I have no empathy for you. This is digital karma and respect goes both ways.

Doxxing was always banned on GAF. But play the victim, bend your versions of events to make yourself the hero.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Nonsensical straw man like this is a very good representation of the old NeoGAF. You'd have people dogpiling the guy you quoted and he would probably be too banned to call you out on this bullshit, so you'd feel like you won the discussion even though your argument makes no fucking sense.

That's why you guys feel safe in a heavily moderated echo chamber. Not because it's "humanly decent" or respectful or anything like that, but because it's easy to beat opposing views.

You keep framing this as some sort of reasonable debate between people who just have differing opinions. But one side has their identity and lived experience at stake, and the worst that can happen to the "other side" of this false dichomtomy is that someone might laugh at them and revoke their posting privileges on a web forum.

This isn't an academic forum or the floor of a debate. It's a private message board community where moderators can toss whomever they please for being too hurtful or too stupid to abide by community standards.

Apparently, many people here (predominantly young cishet white gamebros who "don't want to talk about politics all the time") never had the experience of being told their opinion isn't uniquely interesting or important. I'd hope that getting mocked on NeoGAF would be a good learning experience for them—maybe cause them to wonder about what it's like to be ignored and shunned all the time—but nope. Tears and impotent rage about "dogpiles" and "bullying." Way to self-actualize.

 

[decisions]

Hey Lime,

Sometimes I thought you came off as overly self-righteous/condescending towards people who disagreed with you on certain things and I don't appreciate that.

However, I believe the heart of your message is very important. As a SWM, I want stories and characters of all kinds, I want you to get the same feeling I do when I identify with a protagonist immediately based off their look, and me to get the same feeling you do when you come to empathize with a protagonist who doesn't share many physical attributes with you. Both lessons are important, and they can both be taught by games.

I hope you stay on the website, I just hope more dissent is allowed. I look forward to discussing games with you, maybe you saw me outed as a *gasp* "small-l" Libertarian on here who doesn't really think Colin Moriarty is a terrible person, but I really do agree wih a lot of what you say ans look forward to talking with you on here and appreciate the effort you put into your posts.

 

[Takuan]

Good post, Lime. I agree and appreciate the olive branch.

It comes down to the golden rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated.

I have no problem with characters being whatever the developers want them to be. Whether that be a minority action hero, a bald white space marine, or a half naked warrior princess. Its their game and their vision after all.

That doesn't mean we can't be critical of design, or concept, and yes that includes the race and sexual orientation of the character. That said, the discussion around this should remain civil and not turn into a "witch hunt", or some sort of outrage where we try and get an artist fired or developer blacklisted. That is the stuff I would love to see stopped.

In my view a black woman in a Tankini is as valid a character design as Kratos. We can debate the decision to show skin or not till the cows come home, but in the end it is art, decided on by the developer.

I guess what I am getting at, is I would love to see discussion here remain friendly. For example, some people think characters like Cammy are cool, and hot, and powerful, others think she is objectification. Thats perfectly fine, but we need to learn to agree to disagree and not demonize each other.

TL;DR, you're a Nazi! /s

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Haha so many people in this thread complained about the aggressive one sided nature of discourse and things like dog piles and are now looking more than a little foolish.

Yeah, a lot of dog piling going on in here. It's very hypocritical.

 

[Zia]

Glad all of the dipshit, right-wing cumstains have found a safe space in neuGAF.

 

[Razmos]

You keep framing this as some sort of reasonable debate between people who just have differing opinions. But one side has their identity and lived experience at stake, and the worst that can happen to the "other side" of this false dichomtomy is that someone might laugh at them and revoke their posting privileges on a web forum.

This isn't an academic forum or the floor of a debate. It's a private message board community where moderators can toss whomever they please for being too hurtful or too stupid to abide by community standards.

Apparently, many people here (predominantly young cishet white gamebros who "don't want to talk about politics all the time") never had the experience of being told their opinion isn't uniquely interesting or important. I'd hope that getting mocked on NeoGAF would be a good learning experience for them—maybe cause them to wonder about what it's like to be ignored and shunned all the time—but nope. Tears and impotent rage about "dogpiles" and "bullying." Way to self-actualize.

Very good post.
People with privilege getting "bullied" and they don't like it, I'm shocked. They get a little taste of what the other side deals with all the time and cry about how unfair it is.

Is it any wonder they get compared to spoiled crybabies like Trump? And the all the negative connotations that brings with it?

I find it very hard to empathise with "the other side" when they refuse to do the same and have no idea of what their views actually mean and how they impact on others lives.
What kind of discussion can come from that?

 

[LordRaptor]

Which version of Lime is this? The one from the Denmark or maybe the Midwest US or LA? We lose track sometimes.

You are a professional victim that lies and exaggerates to get sympathy. Your place of residence changes based on how much of a victim you want to be that day. Good riddance.

This x100.

How's the weather in Denmark, Illinois, Lime.

Classy guys.
Not a single fucking word about his post, just an ad hominem.

 

[HariKari]

You keep framing this as some sort of reasonable debate between people who just have differing opinions. But one side has their identity and lived experience at stake, and the worst that can happen to the "other side" of this false dichomtomy is that someone might laugh at them and revoke their posting privileges on a web forum.

The poster in question was pushing back on a particular posting style used in threads. They are not asking for the person to be silenced, only that they use the actual tone on display here rather than what traditionally happened.

 

[cubicle47b]

Glad all of the dipshit, right-wing cumstains have found a safe space in neuGAF.

This is the part of the old NeoGAF we can do without.

 

[HStallion]

Bu.. Bu... But guys you should go out of your way to listen and converse with Lime even if they're difficult. I thought we were all about open discourse and free speech now?

 

[cubicle47b]

The poster in question was pushing back on a particular posting style used in threads. They are not asking for the person to be silenced, only that they use the actual tone on display here rather than what traditionally happened.

Well put.

 

[WickedLaharl]

You are a professional victim that lies and exaggerates to get sympathy. Your place of residence changes based on how much of a victim you want to be that day. Good riddance.

I was thinking the same thing. I also remember op being.mad at air conditioners which leads me to believe they don't argue in good faith.

 

[Croatoan]

You keep framing this as some sort of reasonable debate between people who just have differing opinions. But one side has their identity and lived experience at stake, and the worst that can happen to the "other side" of this false dichomtomy is that someone might laugh at them and revoke their posting privileges on a web forum.

This isn't an academic forum or the floor of a debate. It's a private message board community where moderators can toss whomever they please for being too hurtful or too stupid to abide by community standards.

Apparently, many people here (predominantly young cishet white gamebros who "don't want to talk about politics all the time") never had the experience of being told their opinion isn't uniquely interesting or important. I'd hope that getting mocked on NeoGAF would be a good learning experience for them—maybe cause them to wonder about what it's like to be ignored and shunned all the time—but nope. Tears and impotent rage about "dogpiles" and "bullying." Way to self-actualize.

I think you mistake what people want to discuss.

What most peeps are talking about is this.

Person 1: Captain America should be black

Person 2: I disagree, make a new character that is black.

Moderater bans person 2 for racism

or

Person 1: Cammy's outfit is pure male gaze and designed for misogynists

Person 2: I think Cammy's outfit makes her look sexy and powerful and I like it.

Moderator bans person 2 for being a sexist.

That is what people are talking about when they say they want to discuss things, not obviously bigoted stuff like should gay people have rights, or why do we need more blacks in games.

 

[FrostuTheNinja]

I think it's fairly obvious most aren't interested in the open minded discourse they go on and on about...

At least you're admitting your faults. Good on you.
On topic, it sucks when you become the instigated, doesn't it? Learn from it, become a better person and stop thinking that your world view is paramount to everyone elses. Inclusivity has been and will probably always be an issue because when you elevate one group, another becomes marginalized. The sooner we stop letting minor variables define us, the better.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

This is the part of the old NeoGAF we can do without.

"New" NeoGAF isn't much different from reading this thread.

 

[HStallion]

At least you're admitting your faults. Good on you.
On topic, it sucks when you become the instigated, doesn't it? Learn from it, become a better person and stop thinking that your world view is paramount to everyone elses. Inclusivity has been and will probably always be an issue because when you elevate one group, another becomes marginalized. The sooner we stop letting minor variables define us, the better.

Hey I'm just asking questions. Don't dog pile my free speech.

 

[Razmos]

I think you mistake what people want to discuss.

What most peeps are talking about is this.

Person 1: Captain America should be black

Person 2: I disagree, make a new character that is black.

Moderater bans person 2 for racism

or

Person 1: Cammy's outfit is pure male gaze and designed for misogynists

Person 2: I think Cammy's outfit makes her look sexy and powerful and I like it.

Moderator bans person 2 for being a sexist.

That is what people are talking about when they say they want to discuss things, not obviously bigoted stuff like should gay people have rights, or why do we need more blacks in games.

Those are bad examples as I can't really imagine people being banned for saying that and I don't remember any cases of that.

 

[Tyrael]

Lime, I'm sorry that you have suffered these things here. I don't post too much because english it's not my first language, but I think that all of us must try do make this community the most inclusive as possible after all these things that happened.

It's always sad to see a lot of members giving up and leave a community, so it is up to us to keep this forum a place of respect and understanding.

 

[cubicle47b]

"New" NeoGAF isn't much different from reading this thread.

I agree. I'm hoping for better once the dust settles.

 

[Metalingus5150]

I think you mistake what people want to discuss.

What most peeps are talking about is this.

Person 1: Captain America should be black

Person 2: I disagree, make a new character that is black.

Moderater bans person 2 for racism

or

Person 1: Cammy's outfit is pure male gaze and designed for misogynists

Person 2: I think Cammy's outfit makes her look sexy and powerful and I like it.

Moderator bans person 2 for being a sexist.

That is what people are talking about when they say they want to discuss things, not obviously bigoted stuff like should gay people have rights, or why do we need more blacks in games.

LOL this is not what would happen

 

[off duty ninja]

Classy guys.
Not a single fucking word about his post, just an ad hominem.

Yea, I am done with snark. If I don't like something someone posts and don't have a valid reply I am going to move on rather than snark back at them.

I agree with some that lime is an interesting user to make this post due to some of the shitty, snarky comments they have made over the years but at the end of the day by retaliating as such we only lower ourselves to that same level.

I am committed to being a better, more empathetic poster and I hope others (from all areas of the ideological spectrum) will try to do the same.

 

[cm osi]

wow this is really a U turn

 

[Trey]

Y'all know this entire thread is representative of exactly what Lime is talking about? You specifically cast aside their entire appeal to humanity in order to air your own grievances with them specifically. If this had been any other poster - one that you didn't have an axe to grind with - would you even have responded?

 

[BennyBlanco]

You are a professional victim that lies and exaggerates to get sympathy. Your place of residence changes based on how much of a victim you want to be that day. Good riddance.

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Y'all know this entire thread is representative of exactly what Lime is talking about? You specifically cast aside their entire appeal to humanity in order to air your own grievances with them specifically. If this had been any other poster - one that you didn't have an axe to grind with - would you even have responded?

Like I said, those dog piling Lime are being huge hypocrites.

 

[Iorv3th]

I agree with you Lime that people should listen to opinions and viewpoints from those different than their own and those that feel marginalized. At the same time I don't think everyone has to unequivocally agree with you either. There will be many that do listen and agree, but don't let those that don't ruin your experience (unless they are being purposely shitty then they should be banned). Nobody should be sending death threats or hateful messages though, shouldn't be tolerated here (or anywhere).

Glad all of the dipshit, right-wing cumstains have found a safe space in neuGAF.

Sounds like something a "right-wing cumstain" would say.

 

[off duty ninja]

Bu.. Bu... But guys you should go out of your way to listen and converse with Lime even if they're difficult. I thought we were all about open discourse and free speech now?

This is just as bad as those you are mocking you know...

 

[HariKari]

LOL this is not what would happen

You're absolutely right. He left out the 20 memetic replies and constant quoting after the bait was taken, hoping a mod would agree.

 

[Croatoan]

Those are bad examples as I can't really imagine people being banned for saying that and I don't remember any cases of that.

You must have not been there for the dog piles during the objectification "talks" in certain threads pertaining to a youtube channel.

 

[HStallion]

This is just as bad as those you are mocking you know...

That's the whole point. A lot of people crying about people not listening them and labeling them extreme because of their dissenting take on a situation are sure acting like what they apparently despise.

 

[protonion]

Oh brother!

It's stuff like that that made neogaf so bad the last years.

YES! Racism is the worst thing ever. Rape, sexual assault etc also. These people are garbage and should be jailed at least.(rape should be death penalty imo)

The thing is, many here lumped all those together with people that just didnt care (not even wanting) that games had mostly men as protagonists or women with revealing clothes.

No! No developer has to give any explanation about his choices. NONE! EVER!

You have no right to demand or guilt guide his view about what the protagonist should look like. Nor making me feel bad for enjoying some digital boobs.
Oh my God the Quite threads.
I play some mgsv, go like "woah sexy" and forget it 1 minute later. And here thousands upon thousands of posts going for weeks making me feel sexist, misogynist, rapist in the making and I dont know what else.

What kind of social life do you have?
Get out more.

The old mod team was not right for this job.

 

[Nabbis]

I don't know why some of you take these guys seriously. Lime and some of the other posters have been doing this crap for years, it's pretty clear that they either don't understand normal human interaction or they keep playing a long troll game.

 

[HStallion]

Oh brother!

It's stuff like that that made neogaf so bad the last years.

YES! Racism is the worst thing ever. Rape, sexual assault etc also. These people are garbage and should be jailed at least.(rape should be death penalty imo)

The thing is, many here lumped all those together with people that just didnt care (not even wanting) that games had mostly men as protagonists or women with revealing clothes.

No! No developer has to give any explanation about his choices. NONE! EVER!

You have no right to demand or guilt guide his view about what the protagonist should look like. Nor making me feel bad for enjoying some digital boobs.
Oh my God the Quite threads.
I play some mgsv, go like "woah sexy" and forget it 1 minute later. And here thousands upon thousands of posts going for weeks making me feel sexist, misogynist, rapist in the making and I dont know what else.

What kind of social life do you have?
Get out more.

The old mod team was not right for this job.

So a more draconian rule set and even murkier moderation policy really means things will be even more open and transparent?

 

[Razmos]

So a more draconian rule set and even murkier moderation policy really means things will be even more open and transparent?

Or to put it less strategically: being able to post more shit without being banned

 

[Trey]

Oh brother!

It's stuff like that that made neogaf so bad the last years.

YES! Racism is the worst thing ever. Rape, sexual assault etc also. These people are garbage and should be jailed at least.(rape should be death penalty imo)

The thing is, many here lumped all those together with people that just didnt care (not even wanting) that games had mostly men as protagonists or women with revealing clothes.

No! No developer has to give any explanation about his choices. NONE! EVER!

You have no right to demand or guilt guide his view about what the protagonist should look like. Nor making me feel bad for enjoying some digital boobs.
Oh my God the Quite threads.
I play some mgsv, go like "woah sexy" and forget it 1 minute later. And here thousands upon thousands of posts going for weeks making me feel sexist, misogynist, rapist in the making and I dont know what else.

What kind of social life do you have?
Get out more.

The old mod team was not right for this job.

But you'd want them to explain glitches or poor story choices or why they tacked on multiplayer? Player-dev communication is very important, and these discussions fall under that umbrella.

 

[cubicle47b]

So a more draconian rule set and even murkier moderation policy really means things will be even more open and transparent?

I don't expect the moderation to be more open and transparent. I do expect it to be less of a witch hunt.

 

[off duty ninja]

That's the whole point. A lot of people crying about people not listening them and labeling them extreme because of their dissenting take on a situation are sure acting like what they apparently despise.

I don't disagree and I can't tell others how to post. I just hope each of us can look in the mirror and recognize our own faults here. I realize that I have been extremely dismissive of a lot of views simply because they don't line up with my life experience. I am now realizing that is exactly the same thing each of us does and when people shit on each others experiences it really hurts. I don't want to hurt anyone so I am not going to be that poster anymore. Not that I think I ever was too terrible but I know I've had my moments.

 

[Lionel Richie]

You keep framing this as some sort of reasonable debate between people who just have differing opinions. But one side has their identity and lived experience at stake, and the worst that can happen to the "other side" of this false dichomtomy is that someone might laugh at them and revoke their posting privileges on a web forum.

This isn't an academic forum or the floor of a debate. It's a private message board community where moderators can toss whomever they please for being too hurtful or too stupid to abide by community standards.

Apparently, many people here (predominantly young cishet white gamebros who "don't want to talk about politics all the time") never had the experience of being told their opinion isn't uniquely interesting or important. I'd hope that getting mocked on NeoGAF would be a good learning experience for them—maybe cause them to wonder about what it's like to be ignored and shunned all the time—but nope. Tears and impotent rage about "dogpiles" and "bullying." Way to self-actualize.

There are two things I believe are separate issues here. It absolutely sucks that this particular user got death threats or shit like that, I believe everyone who posted here agrees on that and nobody condones that. Thing is, we don't control idiotic people who are able to do this, I wish it wouldn't happen and I feel bad it happens, but I don't feel sorry over it. Because it wasn't in my control. I don't control "my side" in the discussion, I can only speak for myself.

And that is valid for every single "hurtful" thing that you mentioned. It's not right to group people who would call anyone a black person the n word with people who feel slightly annoyed with having yet another white privilege discussion in a thread about a videogame. My point is that having a slightly dissenting opinion about anything doesn't make you "the other side" and it shouldn't. Things just got too hysterical, you'd have witch hunts over the smallest transgression without the possibility of an argument. People became slaves to their ideologies and would churn out over the top reactions to the smallest things. The fact that it was heavily backed by the moderation would make people lose touch with reality. Everyone who voted for Donald Trump is a fucking nazi (I'm not american and I wouldn't vote for him, relax). If you want that, fine. But that's just not healthy. That's not how the world works at all.

So yeah, this is a floor of a debate, or at least it should be. If someone can't discuss anything in a mild and respectful nature without feeling attacked, that person doesn't need internet hugs. That person needs professional help (and I don't mean that in an asshole way, I literally think the inability to discuss even the toughest personal subject is worth going to therapy for).

 

[HStallion]

I don't expect the moderation to be more open and transparent. I do expect it to be less of a witch hunt.

So really Draconian rules that are way more extreme, vague on what they do and don't cover from unseen mods all as the result of the owner fucking up in his personal life means less of this?

 

[Crossing Eden]

Oh brother!

It's stuff like that that made neogaf so bad the last years.

YES! Racism is the worst thing ever. Rape, sexual assault etc also. These people are garbage and should be jailed at least.(rape should be death penalty imo)

The thing is, many here lumped all those together with people that just didnt care (not even wanting) that games had mostly men as protagonists or women with revealing clothes.

No! No developer has to give any explanation about his choices. NONE! EVER!

You have no right to demand or guilt guide his view about what the protagonist should look like. Nor making me feel bad for enjoying some digital boobs.
Oh my God the Quite threads.
I play some mgsv, go like "woah sexy" and forget it 1 minute later. And here thousands upon thousands of posts going for weeks making me feel sexist, misogynist, rapist in the making and I dont know what else.

What kind of social life do you have?
Get out more.

The old mod team was not right for this job.

Wow it must be SO difficult for you to see people pointing out how misogynistic Quiet is as a character, or for people to point out that you're being catered to all the time. You poor marginalized individual. /s You're a perfect example of the link below. I and many others don't have the advantage of expressing apathy when we aren't represented, nor are we "one of the good ones" who sit quiet and throw our hands up as if things can't improve. Look where we are, look at the past e3, the medium IS improving, because of people like Anita Sarkeesian who spoke up and then got harassed for doing so.

Great post Lime. No one deserves to be harassed because they bother to speak up about aspects of video games like representation. This is one of the greatest threads in the history of this forum because of how true it is.

 

[Staf]

I agree with the message, but boy is it the wrong messenger.

 

[grandwizard]

Lime I just wanted to say I appreciated your posts even in the face of tons of backlash. People acting like they couldn't share their opinions here at all because of they'd get put on blast when they shared shitty one, well that's a forum. Lime being a high profile poster I completely understand the reasoning to move away and just looking at the posts in here referencing location like that matters at all it makes perfect sense.

 

[RastaMentality]

Oh my God the Quite threads.
I play some mgsv, go like "woah sexy" and forget it 1 minute later. And here thousands upon thousands of posts going for weeks making me feel sexist, misogynist, rapist in the making and I dont know what else.

What kind of social life do you have?
Get out more.

The old mod team was not right for this job.

This is your deficiency and no one else's

I consume a ton of problematic media, and I'm not left with those feelings after I read criticism.

 

[Astral Dog]

i like being nice 😄

 

[Laughing Banana]

You are a professional victim that lies and exaggerates to get sympathy. Your place of residence changes based on how much of a victim you want to be that day. Good riddance.

Good grief :/

 

[PulseONE]

I agree with you OP

As a gay guy who lives in a country where I can go to jail for it, gaming and GAF have always helped me to feel like I'm somewhere else and that not everyone in this world are assholes respectively

Hopefully that part of GAF doesn't change too much

 

[Spman2099]

Wow, there are a lot of pretty sickening replies to a very measured, reasonable OP. Speaking as a person that thinks the previous version of GAF was, at times, heavy handed... some of you guys kinda suck.

There was a lot of ugliness just below the surface, it seems.