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[DryvBy]

Source: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/05/opinions/video-games-shooting-opinion-bailenson/index.html

My immediate response when I saw this:


This was something yesterday that popped up all over gaming media. Are we back in the 1990s and journalists are questioning video games again? This is a lot different than a generic "we should look at what media we consume like violent movies and games". This is the type of opinion that we had hearings about in the 90s after Night Trap and it's laughable violence. And Mortal Kombat. And Doom. This is talk that video games are training yards for killers.

 

[JimboJones]

Are we back in the 1990s and journalists are questioning video games again?

Looks like it! That "virtual bootcamp" looks like it's running on the original Half Life engine lol. CNN didn't actually use that footage did they?

Edit: derp thats the intro to Opposing Force, I knew I recognised it.

 

[Dunki]

So CNN is indead fake news? Good to know. Man I can not undestand how American media has become so extreme in either or and nothing in between. ITs like the good old rock music is from hell or how D&D trains murder etc XD

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

Sure... and online cookbooks make 5 star chefs, Facebook and Twitter create incredible communicators, and internet porn has made me the best lover any woman can ask for. :-/

 

[dolabla]

D Dunki

Yeah, the MSM in this country is mostly Pravda'esque trash.

CNN can fuck off, along with the rest of the MSM and politicians who push this garbage.

We are indeed going backwards.

 

[Barakov]

This really is a nuclear take. Until a game controller flies out of my hand like a real gun, then it's BS.

 

[WaterAstro]

Using a gun takes a lot of training that can never be replicated in the virtual world unless there's a peripheral that is exactly like a gun, like a replica, that give it a real kick when shot.

Well, that kind of peripheral would be dangerous for consumer use, so it'll never happen.

 

[checkcola]

Nikolas Cruz, that's who we're talking about, right? I think its safe to say he had mental and behavioral issues. There were warning signs that were known by the school, his own family, local police, even the FBI, oh and his own words on social media. Because of his issues, he clearly should have not had access to weapons, and there should have been intervention because of statements he had made on social media.

 

[Soul of Cinder]

Trust me im a rocket scientist - KSP engineer.

 

[waxer]

I imagine all the media attention. How caught, where they found evidence, where people likely to hide, police response etc is far better training than holding a controller.

 

[LOLCats]

CNN is shit now. They have been for a while but i stopped watching it completely around the last elections.

 

[Horsemama1956]

I could see that.

 

[FallingSputnik]

Using a gun takes a lot of training that can never be replicated in the virtual world unless there's a peripheral that is exactly like a gun, like a replica, that give it a real kick when shot.

Well, that kind of peripheral would be dangerous for consumer use, so it'll never happen.

Yeah I've played plenty of video games where you get to shoot a gun, but I have no idea about how a real gun works, other than you have to pull a trigger.

 

[TheDuskwalker]

I miss when Fox News was the only Fox News of news. Now they all want to be The Onion.

 

[F0rneus]

I mean who doesn't remember the Fatality Murders after Mortal Kombat came out? Kids were out there tossing spears at each other yelling COME HERE. Hell one kid, got part of his face removed and replaced by a cybernetic eye to be like Kano. Sadly, it was successfully argued he was just trying to be half-Terminator, and games weren't banned.

But on a more serious note, the article isn't about all videogames. It's about potential ultra-realistic VR games in the future and it's written by an expert on virtual reality. I feel like a lot of takes here, saw a 360 controller and jumped to conclusions. Guy even says that these games will not make people violent, but he fears they could be used by people who are already violent.

 

[Blam]

Jesus Christ come on CNN the fuck is this stupid clickbait.

 

[WaterAstro]

Yeah I've played plenty of video games where you get to shoot a gun, but I have no idea about how a real gun works, other than you have to pull a trigger.

If you don't have the right grip and prepare yourself for the recoil, you might end up hurting yourself.

If a mass shooter tries out a gun for the first time at the scene of the crime, that person isn't going to be that effective and might end up killing themselves with an assault rifle.

 

[ickythingz]

CNN is either desperate or does not understand even simple psychology. My guess is, they know they are dying and are trying every desperate thing they can to stay relevant. CNN will be dead soon enough.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I remember the congressional debates back in 93-94 when people and moms specifically (like mine for example) were losing their shit over Lethal Enforcers, Night Trap and Mortal Kombat.

I was in 7th grade and I specifically faked sick that day so I could watch them on TV

It was funny watching the boxart for all of the titles constantly be shown on the screen. They were giving the games even more massive free publicity. Obviously it didn’t hurt sales

Well maybe for Night Trap. And Lethal Enforcers was always kind of shitty.

 

[F0rneus]

CNN is either desperate or does not understand even simple psychology. My guess is, they know they are dying and are trying every desperate thing they can to stay relevant. CNN will be dead soon enough.

Did you even read the article. Or are just offended because...?

Again this is not about videogames. It's about future extremely realistic VR simulators and it's written by a Stanford professor who is an expert in VR, who fears that future games, with an extreme level of realism could be used by people to train to commit violence in the same way the US already uses VR to train their soldiers.

He even says that the games themselves won't make anyone violent. He even explain how these games could be safely sold to the public.

But no one read the article. It's all outrage and FAKE NEWS with no nuance.

 

[Crew 511A]

I've been a cop for 16 years. If someone considers video games to be a substitute for real training, they are sorely mistaken.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I've been a cop for 16 years. If someone considers video games to be a substitute for real training, they are sorely mistaken.

Oh really?

 

[DiscoJer]

The military might occasionally use VR, but 99% of actually training in real life. The only way you are really going to get good at shooting a weapon is by actually shooting a weapon.

But what that said, this whole thing is a moot point. You don't need to be a good shot if you are shooting up people in a school. There's no consequences for a miss. You only need to be a good shot if someone else is shooting back.

 

[Bryank75]

That's why all those footballers hone their skills on Fifa.

 

[Fbh]

The OP should reflect that the article is specifically about VR and not gaming as a whole.

Even so. I think it's silly.
If we are going to restrict VR games because criminals could use it to train then let's also ban paintball and airsoft and shooting ranges.
While we are at it let's also ban acting classes because scammers could use them to polish their scamming skills

Now yes is realize the article doesnt say ban. But it suggest changing the games so much (bullets that fly in curves like in the wanted movie, shooting moving our wrists instead of having a trigger, etc) that it goes against the whole point of VR.

 

[NickFire]

Another example of the left (CNN) eating its own (most public gaming figures).

 

[gioGAF]

Seriously, fuck CNN. They will do anything they can to sensationalize whatever they can get their hands on to get some attention.

We are back to the video games being at fault bullshit. How about they talk about people taking some damn personal responsibility? How about they take some personal responsibility? I would argue that their coverage of mass shooters is one of the biggest factors leading to mass shootings in the first place!

 

[EviLore]

Flight sims have been used for training/learning purposes for ages. Racing sims can be very accurate now and some pros use them. Both are much, much further along in replicating their respective real world counterparts than VR shooting is, and I don't feel like I get any benefit on the track from using a sim with FF wheel + pedals + laser-scanned tracks and all that (nor would I hand a sim master my car keys), so I'm not too concerned about being sniped by the radicalized VR Call of Duty champion any time soon.

The headline is needlessly sensationalist. It's reasonable to think that VR shooting training will *eventually* have some practical utility, sure. As immersive as it can sometimes be, though, we're nowhere near the point where we need to have a conversation about regulation. There's way too much of a physical component. Something like airsoft is a way better training tool and no one's worried about that, right?

 

[F0rneus]

Flight sims have been used for training/learning purposes for ages. Racing sims can be very accurate now and some pros use them. Both are much, much further along in replicating their respective real world counterparts than VR shooting is, and I don't feel like I get any benefit on the track from using a sim with FF wheel + pedals + laser-scanned tracks and all that (nor would I hand a sim master my car keys), so I'm not too concerned about being sniped by the radicalized VR Call of Duty champion any time soon.

The headline is needlessly sensationalist. It's reasonable to think that VR shooting training will *eventually* have some practical utility, sure. As immersive as it can sometimes be, though, we're nowhere near the point where we need to have a conversation about regulation. There's way too much of a physical component. Something like airsoft is a way better training tool and no one's worried about that, right?

Yeah but airsoft cannot offer the level of ballistic accuracy, he's talking about here. Especially in future extremely realistic VR games. I think there's a cool discussion there. Not sure how I feel about his suggestion that they'd mess with those ballistics for the mass release. Like...I'd be down for a very realistic VR game with perfect replicas of gun behavior in like a virtual shooting range. Especially if we could get gun shaped controllers for these. Like pick a gun and shoot them, with perfect real-life ballistics. That'd be boss. But at the same time I kind of see his point. If the ballistics are off, at the highest degree of realism then a potential shooter can't use them for training. Which is kind of...I dunno. A grey area?

But we are pretty far off from that level of fidelity. But once we get there...Not sure what I'd feel about it.

 

[UltimateUnknown]

If a possible mass shooter wants to shoot people up, oh I don't know, maybe DON'T HAND HIM A GUN!

 

[Strife In a Teacup]

Looks like it! That "virtual bootcamp" looks like it's running on the original Half Life engine lol. CNN didn't actually use that footage did they?

Edit: derp thats the intro to Opposing Force, I knew I recognised it.

Believe it or not, even around 2001 they had rigged up Super Nintendos with a rifle controller for practice in the US Army on a target shooting game. Probably custom.

And there's the America's Army, game, not sure if that's still around. Which is a FPS used straight up as a recruiting tool.

 

[Northeastmonk]

Bohemia Interactive, makers of the ArmA games, make the VBS3. A simulator that the armed forces use. Granted that's probably not VR, it's not where I'd go for this so called boot camp.

https://bisimulations.com/products/virtual-battlespace

There have been tank VR arcade machines for many years now and they aren't necessarily making tank pilots out of the players that spend the money to play the game.

 

[Gray Rentable]

HAHAHAHA what the fuck CNN. Are you really pushing this?s

Even in my violent third world country we understand that America's problem isn't video games, it's the availability of weaponry.

 

[F0rneus]

HAHAHAHA what the fuck CNN. Are you really pushing this?s

Even in my violent third world country we understand that America's problem isn't video games, it's the availability of weaponry.

But it's not about videogames. It's about extremely realistic VR experiences in the future. Especially with VR becoming more and more available. This ain't about CoD.

 

[DryvBy]

Looks like it! That "virtual bootcamp" looks like it's running on the original Half Life engine lol. CNN didn't actually use that footage did they?

Edit: derp thats the intro to Opposing Force, I knew I recognised it.

My favorite training mission from any game.

 

[Gray Rentable]

But it's not about videogames. It's about extremely realistic VR experiences in the future. Especially with VR becoming more and more available. This ain't about CoD.

If you take a look at the tweet, that's a white xbox controller.

Are you defending CNN? They've proven time and again to be sensationalist.

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

The only way you can prevent this and protect freedoms is for parents to be involved and discerning which probably IS NOT happening in the life of a mass shooter.
The failures are in the home from a young age.

 

[LaughingStock]

The USA has a mass shooting culture problem. And easy access to guns. I doubt videogames have anything to do with that. No matter how realistic.

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

The USA has a mass shooting culture problem. And easy access to guns. I doubt videogames have anything to do with that. No matter how realistic.

I think subjecting young brains to frenetic and violent imagery is a significant piece of the puzzle.
Because of the studies on early childhood development we know there's a negative cognitive impact.

 

[royox]

I think subjecting young brains to frenetic and violent imagery is a significant piece of the puzzle.
Because of the studies on early childhood development we know there's a negative cognitive impact.

Then why it's not happening the same in every other country?

Also videogames aren't the only media with violence. There's the TV and movies.

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

Then why it's not happening the same in every other country?

Also videogames aren't the only media with violence. There's the TV and movies.

It's a piece of the puzzle. It isn't the completed puzzle.
Violent television and movies also have a negative impact.

We're just seeing a massive and widespread failure in parenting that isn't helped by our lax gun laws.
American parents fail. Troubled American children have easy access to guns.

 

[ElDuderino]

If these games are training simulators for mass shooters why aren't parents criticized for buying/letting their kids play them. Im not going to let my 11 year old play Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto. Guns, video game makers, and retailers aren't the problem in my opinion.

 

[Bryank75]

Toy guns, Nerf and water pistols have to go... Lego too since someone might use their creative, object obsessed man-brain to make a lego gun.
Actually I love when people make lego models of guns from games. They are so impressively accurate.

Is it just another attack on boys, when they (media) have already helped the real cause of these violent events... Kids with no father-figure.
Boys need discipline, order and purpose, they crave it. What do they have now?

 

[Northeastmonk]

The USA has a mass shooting culture problem. And easy access to guns. I doubt videogames have anything to do with that. No matter how realistic.

Check this out:

For an amazing experience you'd need this type of setup, but I can't even imagine how much all that would cost. It sure does look cool.

 

[F0rneus]

If you take a look at the tweet, that's a white xbox controller.

Are you defending CNN? They've proven time and again to be sensationalist.

But...the article has nothing to do with console games. And I'm not defending CNN. I'm telling you to actually read things before blindly reacting and getting triggered.

 

[Gray Rentable]

But...the article has nothing to do with console games. And I'm not defending CNN. I'm telling you to actually read things before blindly reacting and getting triggered.

so CNN is blameless in presenting the article as something it is not? That is a console controller right there.

 

[F0rneus]

so CNN is blameless in presenting the article as something it is not? That is a console controller right there.

The picture has nothing to do with the article, nor was it uploaded by the writer of the article. There's an interesting conversation to be had about the future of virtual reality here. Let's talk about that.

 

[Gray Rentable]

The picture has nothing to do with the article, nor was it uploaded by the writer of the article. There's an interesting conversation to be had about the future of virtual reality here. Let's talk about that.

The writer was never my problem. My point still stands that CNN is a dirty rag.

Then I return to my original point, video games, virtual reality or not, is not the root cause of the problem. It is the availability of weaponry.

The ease of access needs to be addressed. Articles like this one are nice intellectual exercises.

 

[Achelexus]

Do they really think that being good at FPS means you can shoot well irl? Rofl

 

[EviLore]

Yeah but airsoft cannot offer the level of ballistic accuracy, he's talking about here. Especially in future extremely realistic VR games. I think there's a cool discussion there. Not sure how I feel about his suggestion that they'd mess with those ballistics for the mass release. Like...I'd be down for a very realistic VR game with perfect replicas of gun behavior in like a virtual shooting range. Especially if we could get gun shaped controllers for these. Like pick a gun and shoot them, with perfect real-life ballistics. That'd be boss. But at the same time I kind of see his point. If the ballistics are off, at the highest degree of realism then a potential shooter can't use them for training. Which is kind of...I dunno. A grey area?

But we are pretty far off from that level of fidelity. But once we get there...Not sure what I'd feel about it.

Ballistic accuracy doesn't matter in the context of mass shootings. Firearm ballistics don't really need to be taken into account by anyone other than military snipers. Bullet drop is negligible for the typical long gun at 100 yards, and handguns are sights/handling limited well before ballistics ever come into play. Long-range mass shootings are a relative rarity as well: the UT bell tower shooting and the DC beltway sniper are the only ones that come to mind (the recent Las Vegas tragedy involved spraying full-auto fire down into a crowd). If you're doing weird things to ballistics in video game/VR land you're going to have a terrible product; for all intents and purposes bullets go where you point them, which is obviously the default way to model things.

It's not like you need special training to be able to shoot a gun into a crowd of people. The severity of mass shootings is usually more about the weapon(s) the shooter has, how many innocent people are in the vicinity when they go off, and their willingness to murder, not how good of a shot they are.

Re: virtual shooting ranges, I mean, real life shooting ranges are widely accessible in the US (the mass shooting capital) whether you're a gun owner or not.

Aside from the proliferation of guns, the psychological element -- desensitization to violence/killing -- arguably matters a lot more as well. That's a concern for VR, absolutely, but also for other forms of media.