called out for being trumpist and sexist? They did the same with Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Ghostbusters etc. Its has become so transparaent when they are doing this
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
RT's critic-ordered vs RT's audience-ordered Star Wars films list
- Thread starter Xisiqomelir
- Start date
Baskin Robbins
Member
Rogue One eats the other movies and spits them out because they taste awful. (TFA, TLJ and Solo)
TFA is fine where it is at. It was the first Star Wars in quite awhile so it's natural it should be where it is. What is dumb is how anyone is called out for giving it negative reviews. It certainly wasn't a flawless film. But at least compared to TLJ it was definitely going somewhere! Till Rian Johnson stuffed Star Wars into his diaper. That bast.
TFA is fine where it is at. It was the first Star Wars in quite awhile so it's natural it should be where it is. What is dumb is how anyone is called out for giving it negative reviews. It certainly wasn't a flawless film. But at least compared to TLJ it was definitely going somewhere! Till Rian Johnson stuffed Star Wars into his diaper. That bast.
Last edited:
prag16
Banned
TFA was good, but not awesome imo. It did a lot of good things, but the issue to me was that its good-ness was contingent on TLJ delivering on its promises.
TLJ did not do that. TLJ retroactively made TFA worse.
Last edited:
Baskin Robbins
Member
JJ gave them the keys to the kingdom(Disney/Rian) and Rian Johnson melted the keys down into a dildo to fuck the fans over with.
Last edited:
Warm Machine
Member
Phantom Menace had higher RT when it first came out. They have been adding reviews to it over the years.
Saw Solo (went because family obligations).
740pm the theatre was EMPTY.
The movie itself - it's not bad, it's your bog standard Hollywood caper story. Could have easily been set in the Wild West or in our times. Entertaining while you watch it, but 200 percent by the numbers.
Not any worse than TFA or TLJ IMHO.
740pm the theatre was EMPTY.
The movie itself - it's not bad, it's your bog standard Hollywood caper story. Could have easily been set in the Wild West or in our times. Entertaining while you watch it, but 200 percent by the numbers.
Not any worse than TFA or TLJ IMHO.
PuppetMaster
Member
The Last Jedi killed all my interest in mainline Star Wars.
So more interested in what they do with spin offs now.
Rogue One was fantastic
So more interested in what they do with spin offs now.
Rogue One was fantastic
Last edited:
a multicultural team of v
Member
Im almost (not really but its how I make the pain go away) appreciative that Disney fucked up the Star Wars franchise so bad that I am never spending another dollar on Disney Star Wars again - it has given me an impetus to go back and enjoy all the """""""""""""""Legends""""""""""""" Star Wars media from the 90s. I recently reread the Thrawn trilogy, and purchased a copy of Rebel Assault 2 for the PSX lol
Cybrwzrd
Banned
The only Star Wars movie worse than TLJ, and I think it is up for debate, is the Christmas Special. The Christmas Special at least doesn't actively try to abuse the audience. The prequel trilogy were campy popcorn munchers at least. I probably wont bother with Solo, or any more Star Wars until it hits Netflix after watching Rian Johnson sodomize the corpse of my childhood for two and a half hours.
Weilthain
Banned
Airola
Member
Solo wasn't a bad movie.
It was ok just like The Last Jedi was,
which was ok just like Rogue One was,
which was ok just like The Force Awakens was,
which was better than what Episode 3 was,
which was better than what Episode 2 was,
which was worse than what Episode 1 was,
which was worse than what The Return of the Jedi was,
which was ok just like The Empire Strikes Back was,
which was ok just like A New Hope was.
I've said this before but I haven't ever been that big of a Star Wars fan. I got lots of Star Wars toys before I had seen any of the movies. The time I spent with the toys was more exciting than any of the movies were. I have a place in my heart for some certain scenes in the original trilogy, mainly from The Return of the Jedi. And my heart beats for Caravan of Courage and The Ewok Adventure the most.
It was ok just like The Last Jedi was,
which was ok just like Rogue One was,
which was ok just like The Force Awakens was,
which was better than what Episode 3 was,
which was better than what Episode 2 was,
which was worse than what Episode 1 was,
which was worse than what The Return of the Jedi was,
which was ok just like The Empire Strikes Back was,
which was ok just like A New Hope was.
I've said this before but I haven't ever been that big of a Star Wars fan. I got lots of Star Wars toys before I had seen any of the movies. The time I spent with the toys was more exciting than any of the movies were. I have a place in my heart for some certain scenes in the original trilogy, mainly from The Return of the Jedi. And my heart beats for Caravan of Courage and The Ewok Adventure the most.
Last edited:
MoFuzz
Member
It took people on YouTube 5 hours to break down everything that's wrong with the movie. In brief though:
- It constantly and blatantly violates the literary principle of Chekov's Gun by rendering the previous movie a complete waste of time. Everything that was set up in TFA is now meaningless or is of no consequence. Why did they choose to tell us that story to begin with?
- It is riddled with plot holes, continuity errors, and baffling story choices (Canto Bight)
- The characters are all unrelatable, with no arcs or consistency. They do and say things because the script says so, not because it's a part of who they are as people.
- Holdo & Leia team up to slap, belittle, and mock Poe, even though he has saved the Resistance forces multiple times, simply to show that they won't tolerate any "mansplaining" on their watch.
- Rose Tico, as a whole
- DJ, as a whole
- It destroys the character of Luke Skywalker as depicted in the original trilogy, and along with TFA, renders all of the struggles of the old cast (Luke, Han, Leia) pointless.
- Repeated and forced humour, especially in scenes where the tone should be far more tense or dramatic.
- It breaks universal rules that have been place for decades (using hyperspace as a weapon, force ghosts interacting with live characters and objects) just for something that either looks cool, or is used as some cheap nostalgic gimmick. Future conflict will now be meaningless as a result, because they will naturally begin with the question of why didn't they do _________ in this situation?
- Subversion for the sake of it, with no meaningful results to show, at the conclusion. It subverts so often, that you begin to suspect it, part way into the movie. By the finale, it has to show off how clever and masterful of a film it really is by subverting its own subversion. (Luke is fighting Kylo! Oh wait, he's not even there! Oh wait, he's fine! Oh wait, he died from trying too hard!)
- The much espoused "themes" of the movie are self-contradictory. Finn is berated for attempting to sacrifice himself to save others, when Holdo and Rose's own damn sister did the exact same thing earlier in the movie, but are cherished, and regarded as heroic. On top of that, capitalism and slavery are both very bad, but as long as we freed the space horsies, and leave the kids to rot in prison, it makes it all worthwhile!
- It directly insults its own fans and tells them that they were silly for liking any of these things in the first place. Rian Johnson seemingly forgot that he was writing and directing episode 8 of a 9 part series in an established world with rules.
I've only scratched the surface, and could keep going for days, if you want. If you acknowledged this initial list of problems , and still thought to yourself "I don't care, it looked and sounded great" or "It didn't bother me" then that's totally fine. For myself, and seemingly other long time fans though, this was beyond redemption and about as close to a slap to the face as you can get.
Last edited:
Doom85
Member
- how did this undo the previous movie? So it wasn't important that Rey and Finn begin their journey, and was Starkiller Base just an inconvenience and its destruction is meaningless? Kylo Ren killing his father and going further into the dark side, not important?
- so it's a Star Wars movie, we are talking about a series whose first movie has the IDIOTIC scene of the Imperial officers not shooting the escape pod. They know droids exist so any officer with half a brain would either open fire or immediately deploy TIE Fighters to follow it. The entire reason the heroes even have a chance to win. Heck, even the greatest films are guilty of this, in Citizen Kane no one was close enough to hear him whisper, "Rosebud" which the entire film revolves around. You can either obsess over inconsistencies and let it ruin movies for you (people need to realize, CinemaSins has said he does what he does for COMEDY, it's not actual film critique) or you can learn to, you know, NOT do that
- the characters act very consistent. I'd elaborate but you didn't either so I guess that's that
- So superior officers are supposed to obey the orders of those under them, what? Poe disobeyed orders from a superior which lead to many lost lives, he was lucky a demotion was all he got. And yes, Holdo should have been more open, but Poe was out of control, as soon as he saw the escape ships he jumped to conclusions and started knocking things off her desk. Which is also consistent for him, he's been Force-tortured and been in two battles in about two days, it's no wonder he's not thinking straight.
- Rose and DJ, well can't argue with you on that since you don't elaborate on it AT ALL
- yeah, Jedi never go into exile, he should have always stayed on the front lines like Obi-Wan and Yoda-OH WAIT. And he even had a more believable reason to not go back, he was so ashamed that he had briefly considered for a second killing Ben (which is not out of character for him to BRIEFLY consider it if it would save countless lives, stop putting Luke on some perfect pedestal) that he couldn't face Leia and Han, you even see him try to tell her before she stops him
Also, so achieving peace for about 1.5-2 decades or so is meaningless? Gee, I guess someone should have told all our WWI veterans that their efforts were meaningless. Sorry fellas, another war started so everything you did was for naught! I mean, there was a period of peace, and history shows us that wars are just a constant throughout time, but regardless of all that you all wasted your time and energy in that war. Just thought you should know.
- yeah, the OT and PT was devoid of that! Certainly no translator droid going around providing comedy at all, no siree.
- it's almost like large ships cost money or something! Yeah, a small fighter lightspeeding a large ship wouldn't be enough, you would need countless fighters doing that, and a large ship would cost a ton of money and that's assuming it succeeds. Holdo might not have made it if Hux hadn't incorrectly assumed she was retreating, they could have opened fire or done a quick lightspeed jump themselves (which would be risky without a calculated course but a short jump would likely not hurt them). Also, why would either side generally use such tactics? The Resistance is fighting a war of attrition, they can't afford to sacrifice what large ships they do have to take out a portion of the First Order's forces. And the First Order outnumbers them and wouldn't see the point in throwing away soldiers and resources for a conflict they feel sure to win.
Yoda cost a single bolt of lightning to strike a tree, he likely can't directly attack people. Also, so what, it's ironic that Vader claims the Force is more powerful than BLOWING UP A PLANET yet fans want these weird restrictions on what the Force can do which would make Vader look like an idiot for saying that.
- you're just ranting now, no meaningful results? So you think Luke and Snoke's deaths affected nothing? Weird that you get mad about how they handled Luke considering how little you seem to regard how much impact he could have on the conflict. Also, yes how dare a lead character actually just be their own character and not yet another, "you're so-and-so's kid. I mean, you could have been special on your own, but we felt we had to shoehorn this overused cliche in anyway!"
- we don't know for sure if Finn's ramming would have succeeded. If you think it would, fine, but there's no conclusive evidence either way. Also, right? Clearly Finn and Rose should have thrown those kids out on the streets where I'm sure things will go super duper for them, or take them with them into a WAR ZONE. How dare they settle for just freeing the animals, clearly they had such great options for rescuing kids! Also, you know, timed mission and all? Freeing the horses gave them a method of transportation and the herd dispersing could throw off their pursuers, a bunch of kids with them would kinda slow them down considerably.
- if you take everything personally like that, then sure, that's what the movie does. I mean, I don't remember the movie ever saying that specifically (Kylo says "let the past die" but he's, you know, THE VILLAIN so I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say we're not supposed to agree with him_ but if you feel attacked by a film for "reasons", not much I can do about that.
- so it's a Star Wars movie, we are talking about a series whose first movie has the IDIOTIC scene of the Imperial officers not shooting the escape pod. They know droids exist so any officer with half a brain would either open fire or immediately deploy TIE Fighters to follow it. The entire reason the heroes even have a chance to win. Heck, even the greatest films are guilty of this, in Citizen Kane no one was close enough to hear him whisper, "Rosebud" which the entire film revolves around. You can either obsess over inconsistencies and let it ruin movies for you (people need to realize, CinemaSins has said he does what he does for COMEDY, it's not actual film critique) or you can learn to, you know, NOT do that
- the characters act very consistent. I'd elaborate but you didn't either so I guess that's that
- So superior officers are supposed to obey the orders of those under them, what? Poe disobeyed orders from a superior which lead to many lost lives, he was lucky a demotion was all he got. And yes, Holdo should have been more open, but Poe was out of control, as soon as he saw the escape ships he jumped to conclusions and started knocking things off her desk. Which is also consistent for him, he's been Force-tortured and been in two battles in about two days, it's no wonder he's not thinking straight.
- Rose and DJ, well can't argue with you on that since you don't elaborate on it AT ALL
- yeah, Jedi never go into exile, he should have always stayed on the front lines like Obi-Wan and Yoda-OH WAIT. And he even had a more believable reason to not go back, he was so ashamed that he had briefly considered for a second killing Ben (which is not out of character for him to BRIEFLY consider it if it would save countless lives, stop putting Luke on some perfect pedestal) that he couldn't face Leia and Han, you even see him try to tell her before she stops him
Also, so achieving peace for about 1.5-2 decades or so is meaningless? Gee, I guess someone should have told all our WWI veterans that their efforts were meaningless. Sorry fellas, another war started so everything you did was for naught! I mean, there was a period of peace, and history shows us that wars are just a constant throughout time, but regardless of all that you all wasted your time and energy in that war. Just thought you should know.
- yeah, the OT and PT was devoid of that! Certainly no translator droid going around providing comedy at all, no siree.
- it's almost like large ships cost money or something! Yeah, a small fighter lightspeeding a large ship wouldn't be enough, you would need countless fighters doing that, and a large ship would cost a ton of money and that's assuming it succeeds. Holdo might not have made it if Hux hadn't incorrectly assumed she was retreating, they could have opened fire or done a quick lightspeed jump themselves (which would be risky without a calculated course but a short jump would likely not hurt them). Also, why would either side generally use such tactics? The Resistance is fighting a war of attrition, they can't afford to sacrifice what large ships they do have to take out a portion of the First Order's forces. And the First Order outnumbers them and wouldn't see the point in throwing away soldiers and resources for a conflict they feel sure to win.
Yoda cost a single bolt of lightning to strike a tree, he likely can't directly attack people. Also, so what, it's ironic that Vader claims the Force is more powerful than BLOWING UP A PLANET yet fans want these weird restrictions on what the Force can do which would make Vader look like an idiot for saying that.
- you're just ranting now, no meaningful results? So you think Luke and Snoke's deaths affected nothing? Weird that you get mad about how they handled Luke considering how little you seem to regard how much impact he could have on the conflict. Also, yes how dare a lead character actually just be their own character and not yet another, "you're so-and-so's kid. I mean, you could have been special on your own, but we felt we had to shoehorn this overused cliche in anyway!"
- we don't know for sure if Finn's ramming would have succeeded. If you think it would, fine, but there's no conclusive evidence either way. Also, right? Clearly Finn and Rose should have thrown those kids out on the streets where I'm sure things will go super duper for them, or take them with them into a WAR ZONE. How dare they settle for just freeing the animals, clearly they had such great options for rescuing kids! Also, you know, timed mission and all? Freeing the horses gave them a method of transportation and the herd dispersing could throw off their pursuers, a bunch of kids with them would kinda slow them down considerably.
- if you take everything personally like that, then sure, that's what the movie does. I mean, I don't remember the movie ever saying that specifically (Kylo says "let the past die" but he's, you know, THE VILLAIN so I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say we're not supposed to agree with him_ but if you feel attacked by a film for "reasons", not much I can do about that.
MoFuzz
Member
Your main talking points have been repeated ad nauseam elsewhere and I can offer a counter argument to each one of them, but that was never the intent here. TLJ's been out for six months, and I've typed entire essays on it in previous threads, some of which were in direct response to your own posts. I didn't intend to have this turn into another TLJ bitch fest, but when people state that they are unsure as to what it was that audiences generally disliked about this movie, in comparison with other SW movies, I chose to throw my two cents in and try to quickly go over some of the major headaches that people had. I did start by saying I would try to be as brief as possible, and that further elaboration by people who have done exhaustive analysis has taken upwards of five hours. I even closed by saying that if you like all of this, that's fine. However, there's clearly a lot of people who did not enjoy these aspects of the movie.
I would be very interested to know what you think the flaws of this movie are. Since you came up with counter arguments for every single one of my criticisms, I think it's safe to say that you didn't find any of these to be a problem. So, what could be improved about the end product then? Surely, you aren't making the case that it was perfect.
There are reasons why TLJ appears at the bottom of the list, when it comes to the RT audience score. Whether you and I agree on the fine points of the movie or not, a lot of people did not like Episode VIII. If you're saying that none of my criticisms are valid, why do you think people have reacted negatively to it? Why has it replaced Attack of the Clones as the most hated entry in the series for so many?
Doom85
Member
I don't fully trust the RT score, there was those Facebook groups that claimed they used bots to lower the score as they hated "forced diversity" and "the removal of the EU" (criticisms of the movie are fine, but I find both of these ridiculous especially the former). IMDb's score is much higher for example.
It's not that your criticisms can't be valid, but some of them I feel could easily apply to so many films including the OT if you looked hard enough and I would rather enjoy movies than not enjoy them. Yes, there are bad films to me, but I would rather focus on the positives over a film than the negatives. I Hate Everything did a wonderful video on The Last Jedi and he talks how he thinks modern audiences are starting to get too cynical in how they look at movies. Rather than trying to appreciate the larger picture of the movie, they would rather focus on finding every little fault in it but also failing to use that much scrutiny towards the positives. As he points out, CinemaSins and the like are meant to be comedic (CinemaSins makes this clear countless times throughout his videos), they are not made to actually be how you look at films.
I wouldn't say The Last Jedi is perfect, but I did see 38 films last year and it was my 4th favorite film of the year (my top 10 going from #10 to #1 being Kong: Skull Island, Your Name, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri, A Silent Voice, Get Out, War for the Planet of the Apes, TLJ, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Blade Runner 2049, and Logan). If there are some criticisms they would be: Finn and Rose at the casino planet (only there though, I enjoyed their part on Snoke's ship) was average, but not bad (certainly above SW Ep. 1 and most of 2*) but definitely the weakest section of the film, but it does last like 8-9 minutes tops. I do think Holdo should have ultimately told Poe everything BUT I can sympathize with her somewhat based on Poe's lack of emotional restraint. DJ was a little hard to understand at times but now that the film is out on video with the option of subtitles it's less of an issue (and I do appreciate the rare occasional character who doesn't speak perfectly since the world isn't populated only by people who speak clearly all the time). The deleted bit with Finn accusing Phasma of betraying the First Order and her shooting the stormtroopers should have been left in (only that part, the actual theatrical version of her fight with Finn was far better looking than the deleted version) although I'm willing to let it slide if she ends up alive in 9 (and hey, Ep. 6 wasted Boba Fett in a lot of people's minds).
I was hoping for some exploration on the possibility of Grey Jedi BUT I do realize just because a movie didn't go the route I thought would happen makes it bad. I mean, I predicted Kylo would kill Snoke and take control of the First Order in this film as that made perfect sense to me, someone who aspires to be like Vader would likely kill his master but since you don't want to repeat Return of the Jedi it would result in Kylo falling further into darkness. But quite a few of my predictions were off and that doesn't bother me.
All of this pales in comparison to what the film did achieve for me. The intense first dogfight in the movie with the heroes barely destroying the Dreadnought (and the nice touch of the First Order officer giving Paige's ship a look of respect as he dies). The interesting new direction for Luke with what is arguably Mark Hammil's greatest performance. Speaking of, Adam Driver goes from good in 7 (but mainly with the mask on, with it off he felt kinda awkward in his performance) to an excellent performance throughout the whole film. The interesting dynamic between Rey and Kylo in their Force-connected talks (although man, did Reylo shippers start getting arrogant because of this, they act like you're ridiculous if you interpret their moments as platonic). Certain beautiful visual moments at the Jedi Temple like the distant shot of Rey training as Luke looks on, or the infinite Reys in the cave (and a clever conclusion to the mystery, as Rey asks to see her parents but sees herself. As Kylo tells her later, she had fallen into her own lie about who her parents were so the answer she was looking for was in her the whole time and the cave visually represents that) and others elsewhere like Holdo ramming Snoke's Ship or Leia staring ahead before they close the door on Crait, it's a visually gorgeous film. Kylo's clever method of betraying Snoke (convenient the pieces were there for him to do so, but virtually all of fiction uses conveniences). Rey and Kylo's intense battle of the guard. Luke's heroic walk as he goes outside and everyone looks in awe, and how he proceeds to completely humiliate Kylo, allow the Resistance to escape, and inspire the galaxy once again. Rey and Finn's emotional reunion showing that Kylo was wrong, Rey is not alone. Luke passing away peacefully as his tale comes full circle, looking at the twin suns. The final shot of the boy staring into the galaxy with dreams in his head inspired by what Luke has done for all the people. And of course, all accompanied by John Williams bringing his A game with another fantastic musical score.
I just find it sad that so many people can't appreciate the positives of the film, and I don't think that blame rests with anyone involved with the film, it's just the way some people are looking at movies nowadays. I had a talk with my brother-in-law where he said he thought Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 was pretty weak. After I talked about so many moments of the movies that made me laugh, smile, warmed my heart, or made me tear up, he admitted he had honestly forgotten quite a few of those. He felt he should rewatch it as he felt he let the things that didn't work for him completely overshadow what did work for him. I think a lot of people nowadays have this issue. There's too many absolutes, films are either terrific or terrible and certain people seem incapable of putting a film anywhere between. Not everyone certainly, but it does strike me as a problem with modern movie audiences.
*which are films (Ep. 1 and 2 that is in case you miss the asterisk) littered by some of the most bland acting in a major Hollywood blockbuster ever, a complete lack of suspense as most of the movies show the Jedi calmly owning everything (compare to the new films which has actors able to emote more and show them clearly stressed in their fights), the fact that virtually all of Episode 1 adds nothing to the story (which is why I never understood 2 being considered the worst, it at least had relevance even if some was executed poorly, primarily the Anakin/Padme parts, Obi-Wan's section offered an interesting mystery and Ewan McGregor is like the one actor in the prequels who gave us a good performance. 1 should have removed Qui Gon as he is unnecessary, the focus should always have been on the bond between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme but by wasting practically an entire movie focused on a character who dies at the end and whose death doesn't really affect the character development of the others at all, they should have had Obi-Wan as his sole mentor from the start), and the fact that Ep. 1 (not 2 or 3, they toned it down after 1) features the actual Mary Sue of the series. I mean, I find a woman in her 20's capable of flying a ship (and people obsess over this, but oh man, it lets her wipe out TWO fighters and offer Han some advice, hardly that impactful compared to what Luke and Anakin did in their ships), wielding a staff (which gives her familiarity with hand weapons so her learning a lightsaber quickly didn't seem unreasonable to me), figuring out a mind trick (Luke also figured out Force Grab at the start of 5 with no guidance), not getting Force mindread (even though Obi-Wan flat out says it won't work on weak-minded people so anyone Force-sensitive would have been able to resist Kylo, but a master like Snoke was able to mind read her), beating a dude with a major injury in his leg (I mean, FINN could have been able to beat Kylo honestly, but I'll chalk this up to Force improves your combat somewhat even though we know the Force is only so relevant to lightsaber proficiency as Grievous was a beast with his lightsabers), and knowing a second language (I mean, Jakku seemed to have a lot of aliens on it, I could believe she's had to learn a few languages to get by).
I find that more reasonable than the 9 year old boy (to emphasize, NINE YEARS OLD) who is a slave thus should have limited time for activities outside of working for Watto but yet he has built his own podracer, already participated in a few races and not died despite how deadly we see it is, wins a podrace against seasoned pros and despite having a delayed start due to Watto's sabotage, can also fly a Naboo fighter somewhat competently (no Anakin, this is not podracing, I refuse to believe the experience of using a podracer give you enough skill to actually fly a fighter, plus what kind of fighter was this that a kid could see what he was doing? Was a Jawa using that one?) which he proceeds to use to win practically the entire war by himself by blowing up the mothership by himself which disables all the droids (it's irrelevant if it was by accident, it's still convoluted), had the Force potential to surpass Yoda, and is the center of a prophecy. Like, GEEZ. Are we sure if we look into his eyes hard enough the cure for cancer won't be there, wouldn't surprise me at this rate. Yeah, Vader was a deadly warrior, but the OT had no reason to make me believe he was so ridiculously special on such a high scale.
And to be clear, just like with TLJ, I'll also address positives. Ep 1 has Darth Maul and a great musical score. Ep 2 has an interesting story when it's focused on Obi-Wan and the vast reduction of Jar Jar's presence was highly appreciated. Both films have quite lovely looking location design even if the CGI aged poorly. Episode 1 is a weak film but it's not one of the worst movies ever by any stretch of the imagination (I mean, in terms of blockbuster films, Batman and Robin came out 2 years before that, so let's keep things in perspective) and 2 is adequate, a film that has plenty that is fairly good (Obi-Wan's parts) and plenty that is not so good (Anakin and Padme's parts).
It's not that your criticisms can't be valid, but some of them I feel could easily apply to so many films including the OT if you looked hard enough and I would rather enjoy movies than not enjoy them. Yes, there are bad films to me, but I would rather focus on the positives over a film than the negatives. I Hate Everything did a wonderful video on The Last Jedi and he talks how he thinks modern audiences are starting to get too cynical in how they look at movies. Rather than trying to appreciate the larger picture of the movie, they would rather focus on finding every little fault in it but also failing to use that much scrutiny towards the positives. As he points out, CinemaSins and the like are meant to be comedic (CinemaSins makes this clear countless times throughout his videos), they are not made to actually be how you look at films.
I wouldn't say The Last Jedi is perfect, but I did see 38 films last year and it was my 4th favorite film of the year (my top 10 going from #10 to #1 being Kong: Skull Island, Your Name, Three Billboards Outside Ebbing Missouri, A Silent Voice, Get Out, War for the Planet of the Apes, TLJ, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Blade Runner 2049, and Logan). If there are some criticisms they would be: Finn and Rose at the casino planet (only there though, I enjoyed their part on Snoke's ship) was average, but not bad (certainly above SW Ep. 1 and most of 2*) but definitely the weakest section of the film, but it does last like 8-9 minutes tops. I do think Holdo should have ultimately told Poe everything BUT I can sympathize with her somewhat based on Poe's lack of emotional restraint. DJ was a little hard to understand at times but now that the film is out on video with the option of subtitles it's less of an issue (and I do appreciate the rare occasional character who doesn't speak perfectly since the world isn't populated only by people who speak clearly all the time). The deleted bit with Finn accusing Phasma of betraying the First Order and her shooting the stormtroopers should have been left in (only that part, the actual theatrical version of her fight with Finn was far better looking than the deleted version) although I'm willing to let it slide if she ends up alive in 9 (and hey, Ep. 6 wasted Boba Fett in a lot of people's minds).
I was hoping for some exploration on the possibility of Grey Jedi BUT I do realize just because a movie didn't go the route I thought would happen makes it bad. I mean, I predicted Kylo would kill Snoke and take control of the First Order in this film as that made perfect sense to me, someone who aspires to be like Vader would likely kill his master but since you don't want to repeat Return of the Jedi it would result in Kylo falling further into darkness. But quite a few of my predictions were off and that doesn't bother me.
All of this pales in comparison to what the film did achieve for me. The intense first dogfight in the movie with the heroes barely destroying the Dreadnought (and the nice touch of the First Order officer giving Paige's ship a look of respect as he dies). The interesting new direction for Luke with what is arguably Mark Hammil's greatest performance. Speaking of, Adam Driver goes from good in 7 (but mainly with the mask on, with it off he felt kinda awkward in his performance) to an excellent performance throughout the whole film. The interesting dynamic between Rey and Kylo in their Force-connected talks (although man, did Reylo shippers start getting arrogant because of this, they act like you're ridiculous if you interpret their moments as platonic). Certain beautiful visual moments at the Jedi Temple like the distant shot of Rey training as Luke looks on, or the infinite Reys in the cave (and a clever conclusion to the mystery, as Rey asks to see her parents but sees herself. As Kylo tells her later, she had fallen into her own lie about who her parents were so the answer she was looking for was in her the whole time and the cave visually represents that) and others elsewhere like Holdo ramming Snoke's Ship or Leia staring ahead before they close the door on Crait, it's a visually gorgeous film. Kylo's clever method of betraying Snoke (convenient the pieces were there for him to do so, but virtually all of fiction uses conveniences). Rey and Kylo's intense battle of the guard. Luke's heroic walk as he goes outside and everyone looks in awe, and how he proceeds to completely humiliate Kylo, allow the Resistance to escape, and inspire the galaxy once again. Rey and Finn's emotional reunion showing that Kylo was wrong, Rey is not alone. Luke passing away peacefully as his tale comes full circle, looking at the twin suns. The final shot of the boy staring into the galaxy with dreams in his head inspired by what Luke has done for all the people. And of course, all accompanied by John Williams bringing his A game with another fantastic musical score.
I just find it sad that so many people can't appreciate the positives of the film, and I don't think that blame rests with anyone involved with the film, it's just the way some people are looking at movies nowadays. I had a talk with my brother-in-law where he said he thought Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 was pretty weak. After I talked about so many moments of the movies that made me laugh, smile, warmed my heart, or made me tear up, he admitted he had honestly forgotten quite a few of those. He felt he should rewatch it as he felt he let the things that didn't work for him completely overshadow what did work for him. I think a lot of people nowadays have this issue. There's too many absolutes, films are either terrific or terrible and certain people seem incapable of putting a film anywhere between. Not everyone certainly, but it does strike me as a problem with modern movie audiences.
*which are films (Ep. 1 and 2 that is in case you miss the asterisk) littered by some of the most bland acting in a major Hollywood blockbuster ever, a complete lack of suspense as most of the movies show the Jedi calmly owning everything (compare to the new films which has actors able to emote more and show them clearly stressed in their fights), the fact that virtually all of Episode 1 adds nothing to the story (which is why I never understood 2 being considered the worst, it at least had relevance even if some was executed poorly, primarily the Anakin/Padme parts, Obi-Wan's section offered an interesting mystery and Ewan McGregor is like the one actor in the prequels who gave us a good performance. 1 should have removed Qui Gon as he is unnecessary, the focus should always have been on the bond between Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Padme but by wasting practically an entire movie focused on a character who dies at the end and whose death doesn't really affect the character development of the others at all, they should have had Obi-Wan as his sole mentor from the start), and the fact that Ep. 1 (not 2 or 3, they toned it down after 1) features the actual Mary Sue of the series. I mean, I find a woman in her 20's capable of flying a ship (and people obsess over this, but oh man, it lets her wipe out TWO fighters and offer Han some advice, hardly that impactful compared to what Luke and Anakin did in their ships), wielding a staff (which gives her familiarity with hand weapons so her learning a lightsaber quickly didn't seem unreasonable to me), figuring out a mind trick (Luke also figured out Force Grab at the start of 5 with no guidance), not getting Force mindread (even though Obi-Wan flat out says it won't work on weak-minded people so anyone Force-sensitive would have been able to resist Kylo, but a master like Snoke was able to mind read her), beating a dude with a major injury in his leg (I mean, FINN could have been able to beat Kylo honestly, but I'll chalk this up to Force improves your combat somewhat even though we know the Force is only so relevant to lightsaber proficiency as Grievous was a beast with his lightsabers), and knowing a second language (I mean, Jakku seemed to have a lot of aliens on it, I could believe she's had to learn a few languages to get by).
I find that more reasonable than the 9 year old boy (to emphasize, NINE YEARS OLD) who is a slave thus should have limited time for activities outside of working for Watto but yet he has built his own podracer, already participated in a few races and not died despite how deadly we see it is, wins a podrace against seasoned pros and despite having a delayed start due to Watto's sabotage, can also fly a Naboo fighter somewhat competently (no Anakin, this is not podracing, I refuse to believe the experience of using a podracer give you enough skill to actually fly a fighter, plus what kind of fighter was this that a kid could see what he was doing? Was a Jawa using that one?) which he proceeds to use to win practically the entire war by himself by blowing up the mothership by himself which disables all the droids (it's irrelevant if it was by accident, it's still convoluted), had the Force potential to surpass Yoda, and is the center of a prophecy. Like, GEEZ. Are we sure if we look into his eyes hard enough the cure for cancer won't be there, wouldn't surprise me at this rate. Yeah, Vader was a deadly warrior, but the OT had no reason to make me believe he was so ridiculously special on such a high scale.
And to be clear, just like with TLJ, I'll also address positives. Ep 1 has Darth Maul and a great musical score. Ep 2 has an interesting story when it's focused on Obi-Wan and the vast reduction of Jar Jar's presence was highly appreciated. Both films have quite lovely looking location design even if the CGI aged poorly. Episode 1 is a weak film but it's not one of the worst movies ever by any stretch of the imagination (I mean, in terms of blockbuster films, Batman and Robin came out 2 years before that, so let's keep things in perspective) and 2 is adequate, a film that has plenty that is fairly good (Obi-Wan's parts) and plenty that is not so good (Anakin and Padme's parts).
ruvikx
Banned
The Last Jedi was a genuinely bad movie, i.e. no offense to the people who enjoyed it but when analysed impartially & compared to every other blockbuster since the dawn of cinema, it's a straight-up bad film. That's actually an understatement & I'm surprised others find it 'surprising' how many normie moviegowers think the movie is literal sh*t, i.e. it has very little to do with politics aka a rejection of liberal bias (diversity & feminism are totally expected in a tentpole Hollywood movie these days, i.e. a female lead is literally a cliché at this juncture), but on the contrary everything to do with bad acting, bad script, bad plot, bad direction, bad special effects (for example, from a vfx standpoint the stampede casino sequence was absolutely cheap in every way imaginable) & a horrible disregard for the lore of the universe (butchering Luke Skywalker by making him drink green goo was a f*cking insult).
There's even the most cringeworthy Leia spacewalk (unpardonable, considering anyone with their head screwed on correctly would KNOW it would become an internet joke aka meme) & 'humor' worthy of a bad amateur youtube attempt at a Spaceballs parody which destroyed any credibility the movie aspired towards within the first 5 minutes (honestly, who the hell can even seriously partake in discussions about the plot after that grotesque sequence between Snoke & General Hux?). The tone deaf attitude & total lack of self-awareness from Rian Johnson & his acolytes only made matters worse, i.e. he delivered a turd worthy of the worst crap Hollywood has ever produced at such a budget (we're talking 1998 Godzilla levels of awful) whilst Rian & his backers feigned ignorance (& acted belligerent on social media) vis-à-vis 'why' people didn't like the movie.
There's even the most cringeworthy Leia spacewalk (unpardonable, considering anyone with their head screwed on correctly would KNOW it would become an internet joke aka meme) & 'humor' worthy of a bad amateur youtube attempt at a Spaceballs parody which destroyed any credibility the movie aspired towards within the first 5 minutes (honestly, who the hell can even seriously partake in discussions about the plot after that grotesque sequence between Snoke & General Hux?). The tone deaf attitude & total lack of self-awareness from Rian Johnson & his acolytes only made matters worse, i.e. he delivered a turd worthy of the worst crap Hollywood has ever produced at such a budget (we're talking 1998 Godzilla levels of awful) whilst Rian & his backers feigned ignorance (& acted belligerent on social media) vis-à-vis 'why' people didn't like the movie.
SirKicksalot
Member
I wish modern blockbusters were as good as Godzilla 1998. Such a comfy movie!
ruvikx
Banned
You're right, i.e. I was probably being unfair on Godzilla. I'm thinking something ala Daredevil (with Ben Affleck) combined with Catwoman (Halle Berry!) & failed attempts at humor = The Last Jedi. I mean for f*cks sake, in a world in which movies such as The Lord of The Rings trilogy exist (i.e. films I use as an example because they totally respected the source material & delivered eternal masterpieces), The Last Jedi should burn.
The critics humiliated themselves by giving it 90%+, i.e. there's no excuse.
Doom85
Member
Thank you, ruvikx, for proving my point. Refusing to acknowledge anything good about the film. Throwing out grand statements ("analysed impartially & compared to every other blockbuster since the dawn of cinema", god I would cringe if I heard someone actually say that in real life) to try to beat down anyone who thinks otherwise. Acting as if Rian Johnson and his team should look at film-making exactly like him. Making it clear that he didn't give the movie a chance mere minutes in (again, I could let my enjoyment of the entire OT be ruined by thinking about how insanely ridiculous the idea that those Imperial officers don't know about droids, and if they do then they are idiots on the highest level, and likewise I can do it to Citizen Kane by pointing out how the entire premise can't happen since no one could have heard his dying words, but you know, I don't let my jimmies get rustled by such small details). Obsessing over really bizarre choices of details to obsess over (Luke drank colored milk in 4! Are people's sensibilities so fragile that they can't handle the character not eating anything but the most beautiful looking food and drink. Well, good thing we never got a good look at what Yoda gave him to eat in 5 then, or maybe people in the 80's wouldn't freak out over such an irrelevant detail). And finally, acting like critics should feel humiliated for feeling differently about a MOVIE.
It's these kinds of absolutes that make it so hard to take a lot of criticisms of TLJ seriously, people are so clearly obsessed to an unhealthy extent to tearing every aspect of the film from limb to limb and clearly are incapable of acknowledging any positives it comes off as disturbing to be quite honest. I feel bad by people who disliked the movie but without being ridiculous about it as they get outspoken by all these obsessed "fans". It wouldn't surprise me if message boards were in a similar state in the prequels' days, anyone who wanted to point out positive aspects of the films or engage in real discussions were drowned out by overgeneralizations and fanboy-complaining that no real discussion could be had and I imagine even those who liked the prequels felt down during those times as they risked facing such overstated absolutes thrown at them. It's the way it is now, Honest Trailers called this out saying it's the fanbase itself that's making it not fun to talk about the movie. People's fandoms were "ruined" by this movie but whether knowingly or unknowingly they seem intent on making sure no one's fandom is in a good spot by being so ridiculously vicious towards the movie that anyone who liked it feels miserable as they can't have any real discussions about it. The Last Jedi may have "ruined" Star Wars for some, but quite a few of those same people are ruining Star Wars for others. It's a messed up state of affairs, and I just see Palpatine clapping and saying, "good, GOOD!"
Also, yes let's praise Godzilla 98, a film made by a director who actually DID SAY he hates the franchise it was attached to. That's not contradictory at all! Heck, like a lot of people today, he also got mad that critics DARED to think differently about his movies, and put Siskel and Ebert as obvious character stand-ins in his movie, and then Siskel and Ebert call him out asking if you're going to do that why did they survive the movie? The director couldn't even be competent at being petty!
It's these kinds of absolutes that make it so hard to take a lot of criticisms of TLJ seriously, people are so clearly obsessed to an unhealthy extent to tearing every aspect of the film from limb to limb and clearly are incapable of acknowledging any positives it comes off as disturbing to be quite honest. I feel bad by people who disliked the movie but without being ridiculous about it as they get outspoken by all these obsessed "fans". It wouldn't surprise me if message boards were in a similar state in the prequels' days, anyone who wanted to point out positive aspects of the films or engage in real discussions were drowned out by overgeneralizations and fanboy-complaining that no real discussion could be had and I imagine even those who liked the prequels felt down during those times as they risked facing such overstated absolutes thrown at them. It's the way it is now, Honest Trailers called this out saying it's the fanbase itself that's making it not fun to talk about the movie. People's fandoms were "ruined" by this movie but whether knowingly or unknowingly they seem intent on making sure no one's fandom is in a good spot by being so ridiculously vicious towards the movie that anyone who liked it feels miserable as they can't have any real discussions about it. The Last Jedi may have "ruined" Star Wars for some, but quite a few of those same people are ruining Star Wars for others. It's a messed up state of affairs, and I just see Palpatine clapping and saying, "good, GOOD!"
Also, yes let's praise Godzilla 98, a film made by a director who actually DID SAY he hates the franchise it was attached to. That's not contradictory at all! Heck, like a lot of people today, he also got mad that critics DARED to think differently about his movies, and put Siskel and Ebert as obvious character stand-ins in his movie, and then Siskel and Ebert call him out asking if you're going to do that why did they survive the movie? The director couldn't even be competent at being petty!
Lanrutcon
Member
When you have to type multiple essays to explain why a movie isn't bad then the movie is probably bad.
Doom85
Member
Even though people have done the exact same thing when criticizing the movie, but hey, double standards are fun!
MoFuzz
Member
Look, you clearly seem to hold this particular movie in high regard, and no sane person can tell you what you should or should not like. That in and of itself though, is not a determining factor in a movie's quality. It's also not a true indicator of a person's character, outside of a sarcastic context.
It's important to recognize though that the same thing applies in reverse. We don't get to be arbiters of other's feelings towards something, we get to do that for ourselves. Any of us are free to like or dislike anything ever, but outside of that, there has to be a standard created in what constitutes good or bad content. You can like Transformers, Suicide Squad, or The Room, but it should be more than fair to say that people don't hold them in the same regard as The Godfather, Pulp Fiction, or Shawshank Redemption. That's because there are subjective and objective traits to something like film.
If everything is subjective and up to interpretation, why bother with reviews at all? Why listen to your friends, your family, your favourite critics? Why visit enthusiast sites such as this to get people's different opinions? We do this so as to reflect back on something and say "Yes, that works", or "Nope, never do that again". How do you think theories are formed and taught to aspiring young minds? Ideally, they're carved painstakingly out of what was successfully done before, with a different spin on it, and ideally improved in some way. You distill things down until you have something greater than what you had before. That's how archetypes are formed.
The I Hate Everything argument of "Trying to Find the Good in Everything", while endearing, is not really grounded in anything other than an emotional response. It's also painfully ironic that a channel called I Hate Everything goes out of its way to chastise people for daring to hate on something. I mean, where does the guy even get the balls to say "It's okay to hate A , B, and C, but don't hate D, how could you say that?" Okay bud, I'm glad you were there to decide that for me. I'd love to hear where exactly the threshold lies for what constitutes good or bad in his book. At what point does it go from I Hate Everything to I Love Everything Unconditionally?
It's one thing to be bitter and cynical towards every piece of content ever, but it's another thing entirely to try and be honest and consistent, past our own biases, and really try to hone in on when something is truly deserving of praise, or needs improvement. Regardless of how people may think that Russian bots, fanboys, misogynists, racists, bigots and trolls can spoil content for others, I promise you that they had nothing to do with the litany of problems that encompasses The Last Jedi.
Plot holes, continuity errors, poor character arcs, inconsistent themes and dissolved plot threads do not care whatsoever about The Fandom or their expectations. However, they do get in the way of a coherent, immersive and well told story.
Last edited:
Platinumstorm
Member
I honestly can care less about "audience opinion". When you look at metacritic user reviews you see why the "audience opinion" doesn't give accurate scores; littered with 10s and 0s in as binary of opinions as can be.
Last edited:
Doom85
Member
The thing is though, I don't think some of these people who hated the film (some, not all) aren't being biased. It's suspicious when that many people claim they can't find anything positive to say about the film and you can't help but wonder if how much of the film they even properly remember (as I pointed out with my brother-in-law and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2) as they choose to focus completely on their negative impressions and are unable to think of anything positive to say (I mean, I think X-men 3 butchers the Dark Phoenix Saga but I also can acknowledge that Kelsey Grammar was a perfect pick for Beast and even the scenes focused on him are particularly better than the rest of the film). Like, yeah, if that's REALLY how people want to look at films, that is their free right to do so, but at the same time I have the right to think that sort of views on cinema sound like a depressing way to watch movies and it's also frustrating to not be able to have conversations with people who are capable of realizing that film discussions shouldn't be absolutes without having others interject that they think the film is literally 100% trash. I mean, how can you have a discussion with someone like that, who refuses to stop for a moment and actually think about the film as a whole? Heck, maybe revisit it even. Yes, sometimes first impressions aren't always what you ultimately have in life. I thought American Beauty was quite excellent the first time I saw it......and then I rewatched it later and realized it was more heavily flawed than I realized, and I think the opposite can happen as well. Of course, don't bother with a revisit if you've already convinced your opinion of the film won't change, because that means you're not watching the movie, you're watching the version of the movie you've established in your head.
Also yes, I would have the same frustration with people who had that attitude towards Transformers and Suicide Squad. Transformers had groundbreaking effects for 2007 and I can't help but suspect the Academy Awards were biased against giving an Oscar to a "toy film" as The Golden Compass winning Best Effects is laughable (I mean, the polar bears didn't look bad, but the amount of details on the Transformers was INSANE). Suicide Squad featured good performances by Will Smith, Margot Robbie, Viola Davis, and (arguably) Jai Courtney of all people. Are they good films? I'd hesitate to say that anytime soon, BUT I think it's ridiculous to call them 100% trash as well. If somebody doesn't want to try to consider that a film could have anything positive, how can you even talk to someone like that? They're clearly committed to their absolute narrative and it's just annoying to hear the repetition of their absolutes. Likewise, anyone who puts films on an absolute pedestal (like the OT) are equally as frustrating. Like okay, Forrest Gump is one of my favorite movies ever, but I will acknowledge Bubba was barely fleshed out as a character.
PlatinumStorm: thank you! Exactly one of the points I made!
Also yes, I would have the same frustration with people who had that attitude towards Transformers and Suicide Squad. Transformers had groundbreaking effects for 2007 and I can't help but suspect the Academy Awards were biased against giving an Oscar to a "toy film" as The Golden Compass winning Best Effects is laughable (I mean, the polar bears didn't look bad, but the amount of details on the Transformers was INSANE). Suicide Squad featured good performances by Will Smith, Margot Robbie, Viola Davis, and (arguably) Jai Courtney of all people. Are they good films? I'd hesitate to say that anytime soon, BUT I think it's ridiculous to call them 100% trash as well. If somebody doesn't want to try to consider that a film could have anything positive, how can you even talk to someone like that? They're clearly committed to their absolute narrative and it's just annoying to hear the repetition of their absolutes. Likewise, anyone who puts films on an absolute pedestal (like the OT) are equally as frustrating. Like okay, Forrest Gump is one of my favorite movies ever, but I will acknowledge Bubba was barely fleshed out as a character.
PlatinumStorm: thank you! Exactly one of the points I made!
prag16
Banned
Man, let it go. There are legitimate criticisms of this movie. Many of them have been listed in this thread. You have the right to engage in low effort hand waving of every last ones of them, but that doesn't make you justified in doing so, and you can just bludgeon people endlessly with massive walls of text and expect to get anywhere. Dismissing people you disagree with out of hand as biased won't get you anywhere either.
And remember I'm someone who liked the movie. (It's a watchable 6.5/10, but not a good Star Wars movie, and it's missteps turned TFA from a potential 8/10, to a 7/10 at best).
Last edited:
Doom85
Member
And I don't think anyone is justified in being dismissive about pointing out that some people likely are biased one way or the other towards certain films. Also, MoFuzz was the one who first gave a list of impressions of the film so not sure why you would act like I'm the only one heavily discussing the film. Forgive me if I just would like more open discussions about the film just as I would imagine you would find someone praising every single element of the film with zero criticisms frustrating.
Also, if a person legitimately isn't biased, then why would my remark bother them, I specifically said it was only SOME PEOPLE, if it doesn't apply to a person then it doesn't apply to a person, and if it does, well.....then it does! I mean, for the record on other websites, not Neogaf, I've been told I'm not a fan several times, told I could enjoy the movie but couldn't say it was actually a good film, and finally was told if I had to delude myself into liking the newest Star Wars movie just to have meaning in my life that I should just end it all for my own good. Because I DARED to like The Last Jedi. So forgive me if I wasn't too worried about offending anyone by saying that some people are probably biased especially since I never claimed that even applied to most of the posters here. If that's all you had to hear for having an opinion on this film, trust me, you got off easy.
prag16
Banned
I couldn't care less what morons you've been encountering in other garbage corners of the Internet. I'm concerned about what's going on here and now (or at least one this site in general) and nobody is doing what you're complaining about. But you're still here, hand waving and dismissing every legitimate issue brought up here.
Doom85
Member
Offering counter-arguments to criticisms isn't hand-waving or being dismissive. Something like Lanrutcon's post is though.
MoFuzz
Member
This is surely true if you want to cherry pick specific instances, and that goes for any site, be it Rotten Tomatos, IMDB, Metacritic or whatever.
If you actually take the time to separate the wheat from the chaff though, it's extremely easy to find and read the analyses that are well written and make clear coherent points followed by examples to back it up. There is absolutely a number of armchair critics who approach things with a more level headed perspective, and to make the assumption that no value can be derived from audience reviews is being overly simplistic about it. There are trolls and haters with every piece of content out there. It's the internet, ffs. It doesn't mean that we get to ignore all of their criticism though.
Where were all of the racist trolls bombing Black Panther's Rotten Tomatoes score? The movie features both Africans and women performing heroic deeds and displaying their power. Shouldn't it have been absolutely eviscerated by the racists and misogynistic manbabies? Oh wait, it's sitting at an 80% audience score. Whoops, so much for that narrative.
Last edited:
Platinumstorm
Member
Um, I guess if you want to suggest that there are so many people who are overtly racist that they would waste their time bombing a movie's review scores, ok, vs something people spend money on. 0_o
MoFuzz
Member
Well, I certainly wasn't the one who made that ignorant claim originally, but let's not pretend like that wasn't one of the excuses that has been propped up by the movie's fans when trying to justify it's low audience score.
Last edited:
Doom85
Member
Actually, that was going to happen, Facebook groups promised to do just that to Black Panther, but Facebook deleted said groups and Rotten Tomatoes issued a response stating they would have security prevent such a thing.
ruvikx
Banned
Dude, that scene was done deliberately for sh*ts & giggles at the expense of Luke Skywalker's credibility, like a Saturday Night Live spoof (like much of the rest of the movie). Your entire defensive argument (& massive wall of text) with regards to The Last Jedi could also apply to every other film - good or really f*cking bad - since... forever, i.e. "are Batman fans so fragile they cannot handle neons, Schwarzenegger's camp & George Clooney's butt in Batman & Robin?! They're biased & ruining cinema for the rest of us! waaaaa" etc. etc.
Star Wars needs its own Christopher Nolan moment, IMO.
Punchpudding
Member
andythinkpad
Member
Critic's pandering to Disney is ridiculous. User list is the true list.
andythinkpad
Member
They are going to lost 50-100 mil on Solo, what sequel?
Kellyc poisons every action movie she is in.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This is how I know this is all about having a war with the media now. To think that TLJ and Solo are worse than Episodes 1-3 is crazy to me. It doesn't make much sense to listen to regular people on the internet when it comes to scoring things nowadays. Because regardless of the agenda, the scores get heavily swayed if a collection of people decide to vote something down. There are forums and groups on Twitter that do this on purpose to make a point.
I mean come on! The Phantom Menance is now better than The Last Jedi?
I mean come on! The Phantom Menance is now better than The Last Jedi?
Last edited:
Grinchy
Banned
I hated TLJ, but nothing is worse than TPM (Sorry again, KevinKeene lol)
Doom85
Member
The Phantom Menace doesn't even have much of a reason to exist. It's a film where the lead is not Anakin, Obi-Wan, or even Padme (you know, the logical choices) but Qui-Gon, a character who dies at the end of it and doesn't factor much into the rest of the trilogy so you're left wondering why they didn't just start the trilogy with Obi-Wan having just become a Jedi Knight and meets Anakin himself. Let's see, anything else relevant happen in the film? Well, the Trade Federation is introduced, I guess that's important, but they're in a war with Naboo that will have zero impact on their actions in 2 and 3 so.....kinda pointless as well. Let's see, ooh, we establish Anakin has a mommy who he loves! Maybe that pays off later, AH, it does, the Sand People kill his mom and he goes too far and kills all of them including innocent children! Great, this is his fall to the dark side, wait he's still a Jedi? And Padme just kinda forgets he said anything? And Yoda seems to know something but not really care? Er.....okay. And oh, he actually goes evil because he believes it may be the only way to save Padme. Huh, so the mom factor wasn't even that relevant. And oh hey, one of the most obnoxious characters to ever grace a blockbuster film!
Seriously, I have always been puzzled by how many people put 1 over 2. At least 2 moved actual important plot points forward, 1 is just a large waste of time for the story. I even heard a well-liked fan cut of the prequel trilogy (forget its name) is about two hours long and only shows the last five minutes of TPM at the start of the cut, that's how irrelevant the film was considered to be.
MoFuzz
Member
Someone posted this graph elsewhere, which gives a visual reference as to what's being discussed.
Tagging the OP, in case they wish to add to the first post.
Xisiqomelir
Tagging the OP, in case they wish to add to the first post.
Xisiqomelir
MoFuzz
Member
I know it's being touted as "rankings", but the important takeaway with RT scores is that they aren't a direct marker of the film's quality, but moreso a tracker of how many people liked or disliked the film, generally speaking.
All this means is that a lot of people disliked The Last Jedi, even though Attack of the Clones (just as one example) could in fact be a worse overall film.
Last edited:
I thought TFA did a decent job of establishing new people, tying in some old, and leaving us in suspense for the next one. I was genuinely excited for TLJ. Then they failed to deliver on explaining Rey's ability to use the force, bastardized Luke, killed the main villian without ever explaining his back story, talked down to fans by shitting on Poe, and without any explanation decided Leia is the most powerful force user ever after being sucked into space in an explosion. Basically, I saw TFA as a solid foundation for a new direction, then TLJ just bulldozed the foundation over and shit all over the rubble.
prag16
Banned
Yeah this is what I've been saying... TFA built a slightly shaky, but possibly promising foundation. Despite being an entertaining film in a vacuum imo, TLJ did not solidify and/or build on that aforementioned foundation, but instead burned it to the ground.
MoFuzz
Member
I think people like myself gave it a pass for being the first entry in a longtime, with the intention of entertaining the audience, while reminding them of the fun, simple pleasures of what the series used to be through nostalgic devices.
While it was endlessly derivative and seemingly ignored the resolution of Ep. VI, it at least gave us story threads that were assumed to be important and would be carried forward into future sequels. Was that the right move from the get go? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm of the mindset that they should have just started far away from the original characters if they wanted to do a soft reboot.
Anyways, it's hard to tell the overall direction from one product. Once you've produced 4 films in 4 years, and 2 of them are direct sequels, the audience now has a pretty clear picture as to what the overall gameplan is, and I think people are rejecting that. Benefit of the doubt only goes so far, before you want results.
Last edited:
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Someone posted this graph elsewhere, which gives a visual reference as to what's being discussed.
Tagging the OP, in case they wish to add to the first post.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS! This clearly shows in visual form how terrible the internet can be. Just look at this graph. Explain to me how Episode 8 is "THAT" much worse than every other Star Wars movie in existence. A 45 point difference!
No other movie seems to have a difference more than 15 points. Even with SOLO fans and critics seem to some what agree on it.