FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Is Ellie not supposed to have romantic life because her lesbianism makes you uncomfortable?
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The Naughty Dog Agenda - RobinGaming
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Normal meaning games with no visible minority representation?
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Just so we're clear: whenever Anita Sarkisian makes criticizes a game, she is attacking the first amendment/artistic authorship. Whenever an actual game developer chooses to feature a minority character prominently, it is to fulfill an "agenda," that is being forced upon gamers.
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Barsinister
Banned
Ellie is not real. There is no way to answer this that will make you happy. It all depends on the story that ND is telling.
Geki-D
Banned
I feel like this is a double standard a lot of people keep doing. It's pretty clear that ND actually WANT their game to be like this and that's their choice. If you don't like it, then don't get the game. If you want them to change it, then you're not better than Sarkeesian.
That's why it doesn't really bother me.
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JimmyRustler
Gold Member
Well, this wohle movement isn‘t that new to begin with. To me personally only Mass Effect Andromeda was the first game I went like... hold on...
Guess we‘ll see just how much people care in the coming year - assuming this trends keeps on going. Perhaps already end of this year when Battlefield V and AC Odysee are released.
EDMIX
Member
"No one's attacking devs"
Other then the guy that was just warned for attacking devs....
Consider my post is aimed that anyone like that person please. No where am I saying everyone in the thread is doing this.
EDMIX
Member
"If you want them to change it, then you're not better than Sarkeesian."
THIS 1000%
Some on here don't get they basically are Male versions of Sarkeesian.
Helios
Member
We're at page 6, can we stop with this line of thinking ? Minorities have been represented in games since forever, this is not something new.
Ar¢tos
Member
Persona 5. To plat the game you are forced to have a girlfriend, no boyfriend option, and it was very uncomfortable to me the whole thing.
You are clearly not gay to dismiss such things and call trolls to those that care.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
You are not really forced to have girlfriend, you can finished the game without ever romancing anybody.
Ar¢tos
Member
Finish the game, yes. Get platinum, no.
I only plat games I really like, and that was the part of getting plat that really annoyed me. It's the trophy "my best partner".
Ka-Kui
Member
I didn't have time to read the entire thread. I'm sure great comments have been made from both sides so forgive me if I sound redundant.
Just to share my thoughts and feelings. I've been a fan of Naughty Dog ever since the original Crash Bandicoot, I've followed their games without question, because for me whatever the genre Naughty Dog will entertain me.
And that's all that I'm here for when Ibplay games. This is my hobby, I'm playing games to kick back and relax with what I like doing. I'm not here to work or fight for a cause or make a statement.
Now I don't mind when developers do so, but at the point when it becomes noticeable and jarring, I'm no longer in the zone when I'm playing games.
I started noticing this first with The Last of Us, but it didn't bother me that much. Bill is gay? Ok, that felt natural and not forced at first. Almost every single leadership role in the game is portrayed by women? Ok I didn't notice it until later. Ellie is revealed to be gay too in Left Behind? Errr... ok.
Then came Uncharted 4. Nathan Drake just being unreasonable and not sharing what he's doing with his wife because... toxic masculinity? Nadine kicking the heroes asses and getting away with it? Nadine and Chloe possible being a lesbian couple?
It's at this point I've decided I can no longer seperate the agenda pushing while trying to enjoy their games. So I'm simply not going to buy their games. It's not for me anymore.
If that's the kind of messaging you like then more power to you. If that's the kind of games Naughty Dog wants to make then I don't want to stop them. I believe developers should make what they truly want.
I'm sure The Last of Us II will be a fantastic game, but my love story with Naughty Dog is over. I won't be able to enjoy the game while knowing about Naughty Dog's forced agenda pushing for me to simply immerse myself in their game world anymore and for issues to not stick out like a sore thumb.
It's come to the point now in western games medium, where if I see any two females with a close relationship I just safely assume they're not friends but a romantic couple. I wonder how females feel about that? In the world of western video games there's no such thing as female friendship.
Just to share my thoughts and feelings. I've been a fan of Naughty Dog ever since the original Crash Bandicoot, I've followed their games without question, because for me whatever the genre Naughty Dog will entertain me.
And that's all that I'm here for when Ibplay games. This is my hobby, I'm playing games to kick back and relax with what I like doing. I'm not here to work or fight for a cause or make a statement.
Now I don't mind when developers do so, but at the point when it becomes noticeable and jarring, I'm no longer in the zone when I'm playing games.
I started noticing this first with The Last of Us, but it didn't bother me that much. Bill is gay? Ok, that felt natural and not forced at first. Almost every single leadership role in the game is portrayed by women? Ok I didn't notice it until later. Ellie is revealed to be gay too in Left Behind? Errr... ok.
Then came Uncharted 4. Nathan Drake just being unreasonable and not sharing what he's doing with his wife because... toxic masculinity? Nadine kicking the heroes asses and getting away with it? Nadine and Chloe possible being a lesbian couple?
It's at this point I've decided I can no longer seperate the agenda pushing while trying to enjoy their games. So I'm simply not going to buy their games. It's not for me anymore.
If that's the kind of messaging you like then more power to you. If that's the kind of games Naughty Dog wants to make then I don't want to stop them. I believe developers should make what they truly want.
I'm sure The Last of Us II will be a fantastic game, but my love story with Naughty Dog is over. I won't be able to enjoy the game while knowing about Naughty Dog's forced agenda pushing for me to simply immerse myself in their game world anymore and for issues to not stick out like a sore thumb.
It's come to the point now in western games medium, where if I see any two females with a close relationship I just safely assume they're not friends but a romantic couple. I wonder how females feel about that? In the world of western video games there's no such thing as female friendship.
TwiztidElf
Member
I don't really care for the brouhaha on this at all. To me the game looks amazing, and the way it's being presented is fine with me.
But here's a fiction angle that I haven't seen mentioned.
Ellie has a natural immunity to the zombie virus right?
So if she's lesbian (and not bi), then her options for reproduction in an apocalyptic environment are limited.
I wonder if this would be tackled in the game? (ie: people encouraging her to reproduce to see if her offspring are also immune?)
But here's a fiction angle that I haven't seen mentioned.
Ellie has a natural immunity to the zombie virus right?
So if she's lesbian (and not bi), then her options for reproduction in an apocalyptic environment are limited.
I wonder if this would be tackled in the game? (ie: people encouraging her to reproduce to see if her offspring are also immune?)
A.Romero
Member
I don't get the outrage. They have the right to to do whatever they want and sell it and we have the right to buy it or not.
I saw the trailer and didn't cause any reaction on me. Woman, man, straight, homosexual, doesn't matter.
Come on guys, we need to let the medium grow. Part of that is for it to experiment and carve it's own path.
I saw the trailer and didn't cause any reaction on me. Woman, man, straight, homosexual, doesn't matter.
Come on guys, we need to let the medium grow. Part of that is for it to experiment and carve it's own path.
Windom Earle
Member
When Ellie was revealed to be lesbian in the TLOU DLC I didn't even think about it, it was natural. The way it was shoved into our faces as the first thing in the Sony press conference was just a big fat YIKES.
Extreme feminism and PC culture is something that comes and goes. We had it for a while in the 80s, now it's back. I don't trust overly "woke" SJWs, more often than not they have skeletons in their closet and their virtue signalling means nothing. On the contrary, it does more harm than good. Fighting hate with hate does not work, even though these children like to pretend it does.
Anyway, I am out of this thread, I like to talk about video games instead of this ResetEra type crap.
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nowhat
Member
I don't think this is really conclusively explained at least so far - it may be that she is naturally immune. Or, it may be fungus in the infected that bit her had mutated to become non-lethal.
But assuming she is naturally immune, it may very well be an inherited trait, and that may very well lead people wanting her to be an "Eve" of sorts, as you suggest. Then again, I don't know how "out" Ellie is with her condition, the tattoo on her arm is obviously to cover the bite mark.
Again if you do this it is totally fine but do not be a hypocrite about it and hire a fucking racist guy who hates white people.
I can decide what I buy and after this video I will not support them anymore and it has nothing to do with the kiss or that Ellie is gay. I do not care but the stuff outside the game the going forth to this political agenda is tiring and I will not support it anymore. Honestly I feel really sad that one of my most favorite studio is acting like this outside of the games they create. Seriously fuck them.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Wasn't something inside her head and if they removed it they can create cure but Ellie would die in process?
nowhat
Member
I just watched a video where Marlene talking about it at the end - there may the text logs that elaborate on this, but basically the fungus grows on the brain, and that it had mutated/changed somehow in Ellie. Finding a cure or at least figuring out what happened would involve removing her brain, which would surely cause her to die.
I guess wanting to removing her brain and trying to work with that is understandable within the circumstances, I don't think gene therapies and such are readily available during the apocalypse. But the fact that the fungus wasn't able to completely infect her would suggest it's possible she's genetically special, which may be an inheritable trait.
I guess wanting to removing her brain and trying to work with that is understandable within the circumstances, I don't think gene therapies and such are readily available during the apocalypse. But the fact that the fungus wasn't able to completely infect her would suggest it's possible she's genetically special, which may be an inheritable trait.
Helios
Member
You say that but PC culture and progressive agendas are actively against creativity and a detriment towards any art form.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Oh okay that makes sense.
When both started the journey they thought it was in the blood. Lot of people say that Joel didn't give Ellie any choice but I would argue Fireflies are the ones didn't giver her any choice because by the time Joel woke up they already put her to sleep and ready for operation. I personally still think what Joel did was the right choice.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
I stopped reading at 'Str8'.
InterMusketeer
Member
There's 250+ posts in this thread right now and only one member attacked Druckmann. It was immediately taken care of by moderation. I guess I don't understand why you need to waste even more time on that then. Seems like an overreaction.
No. There's a difference between "I don't like thing, they should change it" and "Thing is causing harm in real life and should be changed for social reasons." No one's argued the latter. Some seem to think we are talking in dog whistles. That's why the conversation keeps coming back to homophobia.
GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
It's got nothing to do with two girls kissing. I don't know how many times people have to explain this, and I don't know if you've listened properly to what Robin said in the video either. What strikes me most is that it's not actually that difficult to differentiate the two conversations:
Do we want diversity in games? Absolutely ... YES PLEASE.
Do we want diversity forced into games to pander to a feminist agenda ... NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
There are rules writers follow, such as 'don't moralise or get on your soap box'. As soon as either of those appear in a film/book/game, people notice immediately because they're always absent. Some will understand why they notice and others will just get a sense there's something wrong.
These are basic rules of writing and this 'agenda' is breaking them deliberately, ruining everything it touches.
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Vampire On Titus
Member
So have you actually watched the video and read through this thread? Because it seems like you're side-stepping a lot of legitimate criticism.
Ar¢tos
Member
There is no agenda.
There is a bunch of close minded people that accuse everything that doesn't please them as being part of an "agenda".
Writting has evolved through time and continues evolving, this is just an example of that.
InterMusketeer
Member
What do you think of the arguments layed out in the video that argue otherwise?
Vampire On Titus
Member
Why are people so hung up on the term? Call it an agenda. Call it an increased move toward political pandering and didactic moralizing. Call it whatever you want, what's being described is a new direction for ND that Druckmann is plainly open about. A direction that fans are worried, with good reason, will lead to worse writing & worse games.
Again this isn't about LGBT themes in a game, I just replayed Life Is Strange this week w/ a friend of mine. My 3rd run of the game overall. The Red Strings Club is one of my favorites this year and prominently features a gay couple as the two playable characters. It's not about having a problem with gay people, it's about avoiding shit like this.
Again this isn't about LGBT themes in a game, I just replayed Life Is Strange this week w/ a friend of mine. My 3rd run of the game overall. The Red Strings Club is one of my favorites this year and prominently features a gay couple as the two playable characters. It's not about having a problem with gay people, it's about avoiding shit like this.
Ar¢tos
Member
I'm sure if someone cherry picks enough, they can even justify Hitler actions in WW2....
What you see as an agenda i see as a natural way to start adding more power to female characters and a way to slowly display same-sex relationships as a natural thing.
How else you suggest we get normal looking and feeling gay characters, that are more than background extras, in games?
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
Thank you!
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Good. Then there should be no issue with "naughty dogs agenda"
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
I have no idea what this rant has to do with lesbians being allowed to exist in video games.
Helios
Member
You're right, silly me. It's weird how we've had all these games in the past 20 years showing diversity and nobody had any problem with it but somehow now there are people enraged by it. I wonder what could it be... If only we had a video in the OP and 6 pages worth of discussion detailing why people are upset. But I guess we should just resort to the usual: everyone's racist and homophobic.
Jon Neu
Banned
What you call "evolve" it's just the result of said agenda (let's force SJW tropes in our videogames because our new religion is the truth and everybody has to follow it, or else we call them racist, homophobes or the thin veiled "closed minded people"!). If that's what you call evolve, I hope the species die before continue that "evolution".
Which is obviously not an evolution at all, it's actually the contrary, because you are forcing politics in videogames in a very artificial way that takes away the credibility and diminishes the quality of your product. It's not only that you are basically making videogames with the "Love Jesus or you will die in hell" type of pandering, which is already a deal breaker in itself with it's cringeness. But you are also doing a disservice to the quality of the game itself by treating it as a simple medium for propaganda.
When you start designing a videogame with all the SJW mathematics of how many "strong independent women" should have, how many poor "minorities" it should have, how many gays and how many evil white men has to contain so the morally self masturbatory progressives of the world can feel awesome with the game, maybe you are not doing the game any favors, but just your own holier than thou ego.
bosnianpie
Member
Even though it’s very obvious that a culture of political correctness exists within Naughty Dog I fully support their right to push TLOU in the direction they want. It’s up to me if I want to support this or not. Same goes for developers that are accused or racism, sexism etc. I don’t want them to change anything because of a Twitter mob.
I don’t think this will add or take away anything from my experience. However, I think this was a very predictable and boring move. Just another case of pushing gay characters into pop culture, as we seen many times before. There’s nothing bold about it in this day and age, just a way for ND to proclaim that they ”keep up with the times”.
I would love to see more heterosexual romance in games, feels like we haven’t seen a realistic portrayal of that in a while.
I don’t think this will add or take away anything from my experience. However, I think this was a very predictable and boring move. Just another case of pushing gay characters into pop culture, as we seen many times before. There’s nothing bold about it in this day and age, just a way for ND to proclaim that they ”keep up with the times”.
I would love to see more heterosexual romance in games, feels like we haven’t seen a realistic portrayal of that in a while.
Vampire On Titus
Member
Without straw-manning and shitting on the fans? Without ousting one of the most talented devs in the industry and taking over her series? Without taking cues from a stark raving social constructionist who literally believes the fact that women are weaker than men (on average) is a myth? Without hand-picked token hires who are plainly bigoted on social media?
The way so many other games have done it without all this shit?
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InterMusketeer
Member
Ehhh...
I don't think the examples and arguments he presents are farfetched at all. Perhaps you can explain what exactly you disagree with, since you've been rather vague in your posts.
Call it an agenda or not, whatever he's doing, it's far from natural, lol. It's like he's forcing himself to change characters, literally going back to change characters' gender to fit with his new mantra. Come on man, even if your agree with him, it's not natural how he goes about it.
I thought Bill (from TLoU) was a nicely written gay character. Would you consider him a background character? I think this depends entirely on what you want for gay characters in games. Personally I'm just not interested in a character where the most important thing about them is their sexuality. If you want a high-profile game that specifically explores gay relationships, then I just don't really agree with you.
So I'm kind of on the same boat as Robin. I'm fine with gay characters in games, but I wouldn't ask for them or cheer when they're included either.
I have no idea what lesbians being allowed to exist has to do with this thread, so we can both feel confused together.
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
The only people who are racist and homophobic are the people who have a problem with a lesbian kiss in a video game trailer.
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Um what guy is racist and hates white people?
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
What exactly do you think was behind the decision, and how do you know this?
Vampire On Titus
Member
At this point you're either a troll or a moron. Either way it's not worth anyone's time to continue and engage with you.
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
I just quote a post that said verabtim, "when LGBT characters are in games, it breaks my immersion."
FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
It's not worth any game developer's time to listen to the trash in this thread. Good thing they aren't!
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FunGamezRFun2play
Banned
Well clearly that Asian trans man hates white people, because he made facetious comments on twitter. It must be so awkward when he has scenes with Ashley Johnson and Troy Baker.
Red Crayon Aristocrat
Member
What was behind the decision was the desire to spite Gamergate and anyone who thinks along those lines, a lot of developers were I'm sure very saddened by the negative view mainstream culture had of games and gamers post-GG (see the infamous "go home gamer girl!" episode of Law and Order SVU) so they go way out of their way to diversify games now in order to send the message to the mainstream that games aren't just a hobby of angry young white straight men.
And you know it's the case with Prey because no less than 3 times you encounter references to gay couples, two female (at least if you play as a female Morgan Yu, not sure about a male one) and one male, three times? Not once, not twice, but three times? On a space station of a few hundred people? What are the actual odds of that? That can't be a coincidence.
Older, similar games like System Shock 2 and Bioshock didn't feel the need to loudly announce side characters' sexuality (there is one moment later in Bioshock Infinite's Rapture DLC where you see a male couple holding hands, but that's to setup Rapture's laissez faire attitude about things by contrast of Colombia's.
So when a game has blatant virtue signaling that's a clear indicator of a post-GG world and reminds me of what a mess modern gaming culture is, yeah that takes me out of the game.
And look, I'll just be honest, there's a movement going around in modern culture to actively promote homosexuality in the media, to not only make it seem like it's more common than it really is, but to send the message that it's superior to hetetrosexuality, it's that whole progressive stack thing where the more unique you are (ie gay instead of straight) then basically the more worthwhile you are as a human being, which is a creepy concept I do not at all agree with, I am a white, straight, male, I am not better than someone who is not those things, but someone who is not those things is not better than me either, a person shouldn't be judged negatively or favorably by things like their race, sexuality or gender, a person should be judged by who they are as an individual.
Not to get too out there and off topic, but someone earlier posted this panel from the Gabby Rivera America comic, THAT is exactly the kind of shit I'm talking about, what else can you can call that other than gay propaganda? It's sending the message loud and clear "hey kids, be gay! It's awesome!" and I admit it, that makes me uncomfortable, I don't think it's right to try to manipulate people that way.
I don't like propaganda, I don't like social engineering, I don't have a problem with LGBT characters or stories, so long as they're not coming from those angles, brainwashing is creepy no matter what people are being brainwashed into.
And now this kind of crap is seeping into video games, this is the problem.
F
FunGamezRFun2play
pick the quality up please. I don't want to have to remove anyone from the thread but you don't seem to be interested in engaging with the debate and more interested in taking a position not based on good faith but strawmen you're standing behind. If you're unable to do this then just leave the thread. Participation on these subjects require nuance and subtelty, neither of which you are displaying.
Redshirt
Banned
No one is going to be brainwashed into being homosexual. There's no mainstream effort to make homosexuality seem superior to heterosexuality. These are irrational fears.
Having just watched the video again this morning (and for the first time sober), his entire message strikes me as irrational fear as well.
The YouTuber mentions an "over-emphasis on female characters" and concern that a diversity "agenda may compromise the story" but then fully admits that no ND game has actually ever made him feel that way.
He simple fears for TLoU 2 because of The Kiss, because of ND pandering to people who like the idea of Chloedine, because of a social media presence that alienates him but could easily be ignored and so on and so forth.
Having just watched the video again this morning (and for the first time sober), his entire message strikes me as irrational fear as well.
The YouTuber mentions an "over-emphasis on female characters" and concern that a diversity "agenda may compromise the story" but then fully admits that no ND game has actually ever made him feel that way.
He simple fears for TLoU 2 because of The Kiss, because of ND pandering to people who like the idea of Chloedine, because of a social media presence that alienates him but could easily be ignored and so on and so forth.
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