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[JCK75]

If you don't think too much SJW influence does not harm the final product I dare you to sit through the Flash Season 4.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

You wouldn't complain of it if it was Ellie kissing the guy. Stop fooling around. A presentation is just like any other trailer for movies or series, which casually depicit affection.

I am not a defender of agenda or any of this bullshit, but I don't like to pretend to be offended because Twitter witches and political groups are constantly forcing things into media.

It was totally fine. I'll call the shots. Stop being hypocritical in this case. You all know we are not in the 50s, and media trailers every now and then show couples kissing. So... Stop.

It's not about two people of the same sex kissing. For the love of God, please watch the video several times because you clearly haven't listened to it properly.

 

[Nymphae]

If you don't think too much SJW influence does not harm the final product I dare you to sit through the Flash Season 4.

The Marvel diversity mandate has really done wonders for them as well. I don't believe they've had a success with any of these insanely hamfisted SJW projects (female Thor, black female iron man (who built her suit in her college dorm ), female wolverine, trans punisher...if this list reads like a joke it's because it is one lol).

But hey they're gonna keep pumping this shit out even if they're losing money because god forbid they are on the wrong side of history.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Naughty Dog should've just created a whole new IP to push Neil Drukmann's agenda. It feels wrong that they're taking an established, best-selling game to do it instead. The original had a strong focus on the relationship between Ellie and Joel. Now we're getting something completely different just because of that creepy bastard's lesbian fetishism.

Drukmann was lead writer & creative director for The Last Of Us since the beginning. He already made a new IP, it was TLoU.

This argument would make far more sense applied to Uncharted. Which was always Amy Hennig's baby. It is more than a little ironic, that for all the feminist grandstanding, by all appearances Naughty Dog ousted one of the most talented female developers in the industry. Apparently, over differences with Neil Drukmann and Bruce Straley concerning the direction of Uncharted 4. This would be the first Uncharted game post-Anita talks. Which Drukmann admits influenced him greatly. Obviously nobody knows for sure regarding the exact nature of these "disagreements," but if I were a betting man...

Numerous trusted sources close to Naughty Dog have verified Hennig’s departure from the studio. She was writing and leading development of Uncharted PS4. Her final day at the studio was Monday, March 3.

Sources claim Hennig was “forced out” by The Last of Us’ Neil Druckmann and Bruce Straley, and explained that Uncharted may now come under their control.

SOURCE

Several people who have worked for Naughty Dog say Druckmann and Straley stopped seeing eye-to-eye with Hennig, and that they had fundamental disagreements on where to take the Uncharted series. When Hennig left, she signed a non-disparagement agreement with the studio that would prevent both her and Naughty Dog from making negative public comments about what had happened, according to people familiar with the arrangement.

SOURCE

Personally I'd take Amy over Neil any day. She's delivered consistently great results for decades now.

 

[TGO]

I suppose you can say it was nothing.
But I think the fact they replicated the room at E3 was probably done to put you in the trailer as a person in that room kinda indicates that scenes importance not to mention it completely put a downer on the Sony's E3 because of all the moving around.

If you don't think too much SJW influence does not harm the final product I dare you to sit through the Flash Season 4.

I don't think it was that bad, the all girl episode where they was cheering feminism was cringey.
What was bad was the cross over with all the other shows
It was comical how many LGB was in the shows when combined.
Unrealistically comical, I think there's only 4 across the whole arrow/flash/supergirl universe of characters that you wouldn't say are displaying diversity
DC legends has become a joke and Supergirl has gone full on feminist
And I hear we have a lesbian Batwoman coming to Arrow soon.
Nobody has a problem with the characters but when the whole cast starts becoming overwhelming LGB you have to question it, especially when the story starts push the point.

 

[Deleted member 738645]

If you don't think too much SJW influence does not harm the final product I dare you to sit through the Flash Season 4.

I liked it a lot.

/shrugs

 

[Hendrick's]

Why is it that a conversation about whether forcing political correctness into a medium is hurting that medium, always turns into a discussion about whether someone is homophobic, sexist or racist? Why do we get this disconnect? They are two completely different conversations. From what I'm seeing, some people legitimately engage with the question, deciding they agree or disagree based on 'thinking', whilst others take the easy route of demonising the person (or the idea). Which of the previous types are likely to be simply virtue signalling? It's not really a difficult choice is it ...

What is contradictory about this sentence? 'I'm all for including everyone in games but I'm completely against forcing everyone into games for the sake of it.' At what point in that sentence does your brain *snap* and cause you to ignore the context?

In writing, there are some basic rules. Neil himself likes to quote one of them, which is 'simple story, complex characters.' There are many others too. 'Avoid cliques', 'always write from your own experiences' and 'do not moralise or get on your soap box'. That last one is the reason many people are getting tired of this 'forced inclusion'. We're not used to seeing that in our medium because it's 'to be avoided'.

Maybe it would serve this conversation better if we did look at it from that perspective.

When the devs themselves, along with gaming "journalists" are all demonizing their own customers via social media, it's hardly surprising that forum posters immediately hop on the same crutch.

 

[julio_grr]

Actually, the more I read this thread, the more i think for Naughty Dog to show this kiss was the smartest move they could make, from a marketing point of view.
The fact people are still discussing this months after tells a lot. It seems impossible they would not have discussed this point when making the choice to begin the trailer with this kiss. People discussing TLOU2 all over forums and social media is like free advertisement for them. Bad buzz is still buzz, as the saying goes.

We'd probably be laughing about it, because it would be yet another game where a guy takes revenge because someone was killed or kidnapped or whatever.

I do hope TLOU 2 is not just about revenge. Finger crossed.

 

[Toe-Knee]

Watched it already. It was on point on many levels and I'll repeat what I've been telling everyone else; forced, fabricated "diversity" isn't very "diverse" and the message is lost. This video isn't meant to convey "I'm not going to play this game" because Robin enjoys the series, he's essentially saying that Naughty Dog trying to cram social justice propaganda down our throats is alienating opposing thought for the purpose of their own mere personal satisfaction.

It's ironically turning into hate itself and, even though game developers have every right to make whatever experience they want for players, this issue can change with enough backlash. My issue with the E3 kiss was not depictions of LGBT romance, but PDA in front of a mass audience. It's arguably inappropriate, and even if they showed straight people doing that it still would have had some sort of negative reaction in my opinion.



I'm just going to be honest, I think you don't have a problem with it because you agree with their agenda.



Who said that same-sex couples are "weird"? We're just saying that any form of PDA in front of a mass audience that is in turn out of place should be considered inappropriate, no matter the sexuality involved. This form of "agenda", make no mistake, is propaganda.

So do you have an issue with the kiss during wedding ceremonies?

 

[Hendrick's]

If you don't think too much SJW influence does not harm the final product I dare you to sit through the Flash Season 4.

That show was horrible long before season 4.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

"There seems to be an agenda here" vs "Everyone boycott this product because it does something I don't like!"

Can you spot the difference?

No, because both approaches seek to malign, and discourage others from liking the product in question.

Different means to achieve the same ends.

 

[joe_zazen]

This is essentially where I'm at too. You read Madame Bovary, Anna Karenina and good old Jane Austen and consider these incredible female characters who demonstrate the entire breadth of the human experience, and then you compare it to a lady kicking chaps in the balls and swinging through the jungle.

I personally don't think games should attempt any sort of message at all. I think it is a poor, limited medium for such a lofty goal. It's like trying to sail the Atlantic on a piano. Games are a craft, not an art - the magic is in the design and the mechanics and the physical interaction between the player and the sprites on the screen. As a caveat, I'd say something like Bioshock does a good job of conveying a mood - so the concept of individuality and objectivism is neatly portrayed.

I suppose the one good thing you could say is that Naughty Dog is paving the way for other types of character to be portrayed in an utterly banal, simplistic manner; and I guess that's a good thing if you're into utterly banal, simplistic characters.

A murder sim that tries to make the world a better place is so American. The only thing these games normalize and the only agenda they push is that the killing of ‘bad’ people is important and satisfying. It makes what the country does in the rest of the world enjoyable for the nation by mythologising it and it helps recruitment by training the nation’s youth to believe in it. Dropping a gay woman into the role of righteous American fighter is utterly unimportant given the broader context of normalizing ‘necessary’ killing in this world of extrajudicial drones, institutionalized torture, and a 1 trillion dollar military.

I want a game where you play as an american (or British) agent killing and torturing in order to over throw a democratically elected govt in order to install a compliant sooge so your country’s oil companies can extract the nation’s wealth. There is a message gsme for you.

 

[Hendrick's]

Actually, the more I read this thread, the more i think for Naughty Dog to show this kiss was the smartest move they could make, from a marketing point of view.
The fact people are still discussing this months after tells a lot.

It's been less than a month, but your point is valid. I doubt it will affect sales negatively or positively though.

 

[Pejo]

I have no problem with TLoU's stuff since it was actually baked into the story since the expac for the first game, it makes sense, and seems realistic within the game world.

Where I had a problem was Nadine from UC4. Nate is basically a one man army for 3 games then continually gets his ass handed to him (once with his brother helping) by the strong female archetype. It was just a little too "on the nose", where it could have been done more believably if she used her wits to trap him into various disadvantageous situations, but they went full on with the physical prowess angle.

 

[MayauMiao]

I have no problem with TLoU's stuff since it was actually baked into the story since the expac for the first game, it makes sense, and seems realistic within the game world.

Where I had a problem was Nadine from UC4. Nate is basically a one man army for 3 games then continually gets his ass handed to him (once with his brother helping) by the strong female archetype. It was just a little too "on the nose", where it could have been done more believably if she used her wits to trap him into various disadvantageous situations, but they went full on with the physical prowess angle.

Nadine in UC4 was ridiculously strong to the point it broke the immersion of the game cinematic fight.

I can almost expect her throw a fireball given her unrealistic ability to take out 2 very experience men.

 

[Toe-Knee]

Nadine in UC4 was ridiculously strong to the point it broke the immersion of the game cinematic fight.

I can almost expect her throw a fireball given her unrealistic ability to take out 2 very experience men.

She was clearly trained in martial arts. Any martial artist trained to a high level can easily take down 2 brawlers regardless of gender.

Also Nate was never great with physical combat he excelled with guns.

 

[MayauMiao]

She was clearly trained in martial arts. Any martial artist trained to a high level can easily take down 2 brawlers regardless of gender.

Also Nate was never great with physical combat he excelled with guns.

And yet Nathan alone can still beat a highly military trained Zoran Lazarevic in Uncharted 2.

 

[aevanhoe]

Good video.

It is obvious that Druckmann has an agenda, which is fine. It is his game to make. The market will decide whether they like it or not.

The absurd notion that pointing the agenda out is somehow indicative of being on the wrong side of history though it what bothers me. I personally have no issues with Ellie being gay or sharing a kiss in game. That is part of what makes her a interesting character. I do kind of find it jarring that it would be the central focus of that trailer though. It felt forced. Like it was only there for the (negative) attention it would get (which in a way is good marketing I guess).

I believe the idea was to juxtapose scenes of love with scenes of violence, possibly foreshadowing the loss of that love. It's a nice contrast, and I think the trailer is more interesting because of it. The fact that the 'love' scene is about two gay women is just staying true to Ellie's character.

I don't really understand why people have a problem with this. If the gameplay and story suffer because of some "agenda" or whatever, the game will be bad. But we won't know that until the game is out.

Let's be honest here - people say they don't really have an issue with gays, but the truth is - if they're bothered by this trailer, they probably do.

 

[Aquamarine]

.

 

[joe_zazen]

Let's be honest here - people say they don't really have an issue with gays, but the truth is - if they're bothered by this trailer, they probably do.

Maybe you mean the kiss? I found the trailer’s violence digusting (in the sense that it made me queasy) because of the high fidelty violence.

Working towards photorealistic murder simulation seems a bizzarre thing to devote your professional life to.

 

[Nymphae]

Maybe you mean the kiss? I found the trailer’s violence digusting (in the sense that it made me queasy) because of the high fidelty violence.

Working towards photorealistic murder simulation seems a bizzarre thing to devote your professional life to.

They balance that with a devotion to promoting LGBTQAAI+BBQ I guess.

 

[Norse]

Naughty dog took the easy route. Had they any balls they would have made them men kissing instead of the safe, more accepted women kissing.
Again, I don't have an issue with the in-game stuff, it was how they hired the reporter and the transgender person. They clearly didn't practice fair or equal opportunity to others. It gives the appearance that they are on the far left. Far to either side is bad imo.

 

[MrRogers]

I bet good money, that like kathleen Kennedy and star wars, Druckmann's name in 5 years or so will go down in infamy as the man who destroyed naughty dog. He will continue to push his progressive agenda that he openly admits too and will go further past the views than what is palpable to the moderate gamer. I dont doubt he is a good game director, TLOU is proof of that, but his hubris, virtue signaling and pride will bring him down. The quality of products will decline too, im certain TLOU 2 will be inferior to TLOU in all the areas that matter.

 

[Hendrick's]

Naughty dog took the easy route. Had they any balls they would have made them men kissing instead of the safe, more accepted women kissing.
Again, I don't have an issue with the in-game stuff, it was how they hired the reporter and the transgender person. They clearly didn't practice fair or equal opportunity to others. It gives the appearance that they are on the far left. Far to either side is bad imo.

They know their consumer base is still overwhelmingly heterosexual men and that this would probably hurt sales. You are right though, they seem to only want to push things to a point where it won't hurt the bottom line. I'm not sure if this is necessarily cowardice or just the result of being a Sony 1st party studio though.

 

[B_Signal]

I bet good money, that like kathleen Kennedy and star wars, Druckmann's name in 5 years or so will go down in infamy as the man who destroyed naughty dog. He will continue to push his progressive agenda that he openly admits too and will go further past the views than what is palpable to the moderate gamer. I dont doubt he is a good game director, TLOU is proof of that, but his hubris, virtue signaling and pride will bring him down. The quality of products will decline too, im certain TLOU 2 will be inferior to TLOU in all the areas that matter.

how? You've seen nothing of it yet

fuck me, people are getting worked up over themselves at the minute. I'm not going to tell people what to like, but if you feel like this give TLOU2 a miss so the rest of us don't have to read endless pissing and moaning about it

 

[Vampire On Titus]

I believe the idea was to juxtapose scenes of love with scenes of violence, possibly foreshadowing the loss of that love. It's a nice contrast, and I think the trailer is more interesting because of it. The fact that the 'love' scene is about two gay women is just staying true to Ellie's character.

I don't really understand why people have a problem with this. If the gameplay and story suffer because of some "agenda" or whatever, the game will be bad. But we won't know that until the game is out.

Let's be honest here - people say they don't really have an issue with gays, but the truth is - if they're bothered by this trailer, they probably do.

Bullshit. Are you talking about people like RobinGaming and those who agree with his points? I'll assume you are since that's what this thread, and the post you replied to, is about.

I don't know how many times it's been said but the criticisms of ND laid out in his video go beyond the TLoU2 trailer. The trailer is a small part of the overall video and the lesbian kissing is never, in itself, said to be the problem. The trailer is merely a focal point for the greater discussion of ND's obvious changes in direction as a studio. A familiar pattern of changes that resemble others in various mediums that lead to a decline in quality.

 

[Toe-Knee]

And yet Nathan alone can still beat a highly military trained Zoran Lazarevic in Uncharted 2.

Using guns and environmental hazards.

 

[Revolutionary]

Nadine in UC4 was ridiculously strong to the point it broke the immersion of the game cinematic fight.

I can almost expect her throw a fireball given her unrealistic ability to take out 2 very experience men.

It's a dumb scene but I feel like they covered their tracks because both Nate and his brother were visibly winded in the scene. That said, Nate being winded didn't really make sense because it's literally never been a problem in the entire series up until that point - it was pure convenience and clearly in service of Nadine's "character".

 

[GribbleGrunger]

No, because both approaches seek to malign, and discourage others from liking the product in question.

Different means to achieve the same ends.

You have a very conflict orientated mind. Perhaps there's another way ...

 

[DeepEnigma]

It's a dumb scene but I feel like they covered their tracks because both Nate and his brother were visibly winded in the scene. That said, Nate being winded didn't really make sense because it's literally never been a problem in the entire series up until that point - it was pure convenience and clearly in service of Nadine's "character".

> Scales mountains, free falls from planes, trains, mother-fucking buildings; continues climbing mountains, bare handed, like a spider monkey, swinging from a rope better than your average Cirque Du Soleil performer, all while barely breaking a sweat.

> First 3 swings and a leg kick agains Nadine, dude needs an inhaler, oxygen tank, and/or an epinephrine shot.

I really enjoy the series, but I can see the immersion issue (in story telling/narrative) some will have.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Why are we now talking about UC? It's perfectly acceptable for Nadine to beat Nathan Drake in a pop-corn movie inspired game. Know your genres. TLOU is different. There's a reason the hardest difficulty is called 'Grounded'.

 

[Hotel Security]

Ug...social issues in games. I don't mind them being in there but I do wish developers and reviewers would realize that many, many people play games as an escape from all the bullshit of politics and don't want to have to see it in something that is just supposed to be playful and fun and a "way to get away." I kind of don't mind games putting these minority groups in the game, but the discussion and preaching and debate about it we could all do without.

Not to mention that most games handle it in a very elementary way like we're all 10-year olds watching a PSA video in school. It never feels like we're seeing these issues through an adult's eyes but in the eyes of someone who just realized these issues. There's very rarely any subtlety and often the issues are being banged against your head in a very obvious manner. I don't think it's handled well in games but I could say this about storytelling in general.

As for the games' agenda, I'm not sure what folks expect. Most devs are 30-somethings or younger so of course they'll put forth a liberal agenda on everything. Not too many "conservative game developers" out there and, if they are, they're not doing anything political. So, much like social media, you're likely only going to get one side of these debates since it's mostly young people who mostly all lean one way who are starting the conversations. It's a young person industry and it shows and it's really just liberals preaching to the choir unless someone has the balls to present another side of it...and I doubt anyone does.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why are we now talking about UC? It's perfectly acceptable for Nadine to beat Nathan Drake in a pop-corn movie inspired game. Know your genres. TLOU is different. There's a reason the hardest difficulty is called 'Grounded'.

That's it Ellie, go to your room, and no Nintendo either!

 

[GribbleGrunger]

That's it Ellie, go to your room, and no Nintendo either!

 

[The Alien]

For years politicians have been scapegoating violence in video games. I guess ND found that two girls kissing would suitably distract from all those Nathan Drake murder sprees.

 

[MrRogers]

For years politicians have been scapegoating violence in video games. I guess ND found that two girls kissing would suitably distract from all those Nathan Drake murder sprees.

Well if it makes a difference Ellie murders people too and in the most brutal, gruesome ways, that make uncharted's rag doll animations look like childs play. She probably kills just as many as well.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well if it makes a difference Ellie murders people too and in the most brutal, gruesome ways, that make uncharted's rag doll animations look like childs play. She probably kills just as many as well.

But the narrative does not apply to her, or Lara, or Chloe, or (I'm seeing a pattern here).

 

[KellyM]

I suppose you can say it was nothing.
But I think the fact they replicated the room at E3 was probably done to put you in the trailer as a person in that room kinda indicates that scenes importance not to mention it completely put a downer on the Sony's E3 because of all the moving around.


I don't think it was that bad, the all girl episode where they was cheering feminism was cringey.
What was bad was the cross over with all the other shows
It was comical how many LGB was in the shows when combined.
Unrealistically comical, I think there's only 4 across the whole arrow/flash/supergirl universe of characters that you wouldn't say are displaying diversity
DC legends has become a joke and Supergirl has gone full on feminist
And I hear we have a lesbian Batwoman coming to Arrow soon.
Nobody has a problem with the characters but when the whole cast starts becoming overwhelming LGB you have to question it, especially when the story starts push the point.

I don't know if you read the comics books but FYI, Batwoman in the comic is a Lesbian, So they are just not creating this character out of Thin air, So I don't see an Agenda with Batwoman being a lesbian in Arrow.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I don't know if you read the comics books but FYI, Batwoman in the comic is a Lesbian, So they are just not creating this character out of Thin air, So I don't see an Agenda with Batwoman being a lesbian in Arrow.

That is his point. She was not always that way, from OG 1956 on she was not. There was a long hiatus, and then she was brought back in 2006 and rewritten as a Jewish lesbian woman.

After a long hiatus, Batwoman was reintroduced to DC continuity in 2006 in the seventh week of the publisher's year-long 52 weekly comic book. Reintroduced as Kate Kane, the modern Batwoman began operating in Gotham City in Batman's absence following the events of the company-wide crossover Infinite Crisis (2005). The modern Batwoman is written as being of Jewishdescent and as a lesbian in an effort by DC editorial staff to diversify its publications and better connect to modern-day readership. Described as the highest-profile gay superhero to appear in stories published by DC, Batwoman's sexual orientation drew wide media attention following her reintroduction, as well as both praise and criticism from the general public.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batwoman

I can see both sides of the argument/perspectives. No issue with a character being written that way, but also see people take issue with retconning a character that was not either of those two things, instead of being creative in inventing a new character.

 

[nowhat]

I can see both sides of the argument/perspectives. No issue with a character being written that way, but also see people take issue with retconning a character that was not either of those two things, instead of being creative in inventing a new character.

Yeah, good thing the only time this ever has happened in the history of comics is with Batwoman.

 

[JimmyRustler]

Holy shit, I didn't even know about the ND tweets. Kinda rubs me the wrong way.
Lets see how this goes on. If they really do continue in this tone I guess I'll pass on this game. Not going to support people who deal with criticism in this way. What the heck?

 

[Breakage]

The growth of identity politics in gaming was always on the cards for the so-called progressives. Underneath it all is an intense dislike for the traditional family (which crystallises, in their view, the tyranny of the patriarchy). Being straight and having old-fashioned values is no longer desirable (or fashionable?) among these people.

I think it would be more accurate to say what is happening at ND is a rejection of traditional views rather than simply striving for "inclusiveness". Inclusiveness suggests that there is still room for the traditional outlook.

I doubt you're ever going to see an ND game where a straight man saves his straight helpless girlfriend or wife and they end up having a family with two straight kids whose genders conform to their biological sex organs.

 

[Dunki]

Finally watched it and man this shit is upsetting. I loved the LAt of us because they portrayed gay characters like they are not gay but human. Their sexuality did not play any role in it. But man these tweets about Chloe and Nadine and this fucking racist guy Ian who plays chen in the LAst of us 2 rubs me totally the wrong way. I really struggle to support such a company even though I loved their games until l Uncharted 4.

 

[JimmyRustler]

What I do wonder though (concerning with the whole topic I meank is that, if ND and other devs are so dedicated to their message/agenda, why do they only shoehorn this stuff into existing and already established franchises? Why not make a new franchise that is being built from the ground up with that in mind? Because I doubt that anyone (or at least not nearly as much) people would complain. Not so dedicated after all or what?

Also found it interesting how GG dialed down Aloy‘s coolness by loads in their Frozen Wilds add on. Did also realize how „in your face“ it all was or what?

 

[Gahadmor12]

I doubt you're ever going to see an ND game where a straight man saves his straight helpless girlfriend or wife and they end up having a family with two straight kids whose genders conform to their biological sex organs.

That's not how the world looks today, the "traditional views" you are talking about are chatholic traditions dating hundreds of years, and like every tradition, they fade at some point and a new era takes its place. Heck the tradition in ancient Rome and Greece was of a totally unbridled sexuality, and these 2 laid the basis of all modern western civilizations! Their traditions faded to be replaced by catholicism, and catholicism is now bering replaced by something else, with less rules, less bans and less shame. You can fight it and not like it, but it is happening with or without you.

 

[HaveButOneLife]

So do you have an issue with the kiss during wedding ceremonies?

Someone didn't get the point. A marrying couple kissing at a wedding is actually appropriate.

 

[Dunki]

What I do wonder though (concerning with the whole topic I meank is that, if ND and other devs are so dedicated to their message/agenda, why do they only shoehorn this stuff into existing and already established franchises? Why not make a new franchise that is being built from the ground up with that in mind? Because I doubt that anyone (or at least not nearly as much) people would complain. Not so dedicated after all or what?

Also found it interesting how GG dialed down Aloy‘s coolness by loads in their Frozen Wilds add on. Did also realize how „in your face“ it all was or what?

I personally did not even mind the kissing scene because it has shown how Ellie will change because they kill her most likely but all the background shit out of these trailers makes me actual upset. Especially this racist asshole Ian Alexander. When you want to promote inclusivity and diversity and then hire such a shitbag you look like hypocrites. And I willand can not suport this studio anymore

 

[Barsinister]

I have always felt that what you get out of a piece of media is what you put into it. TLOU was gripping to me because I have a young daughter and I saw myself as Joel throughout the journey. The other parts of the story, while interesting, did not move me in the same way.

As far as the new game goes, if it is going to make Ellie a lesbian, what does that mean for the society? She is the only known person who is immune to the disease. How does that make the others in village feel? Is she thought of as a new "Eve"? Is she the last hope for human kind? Those are the only really interesting questions as far as I can think of in making her gay. And those questions don't have the same pull on me as the first game did.

Otherwise, why bother? If Luke Skywalker was gay the whole time, would that make any difference to his journey? For all we know, he could have been. It's not brought up, as it's unnecessary to the story.

TLOU was a character piece in the form of an action game. The new game needs as compelling a character to even compete.

 

[TGO]

That is his point. She was not always that way, from OG 1956 on she was not. There was a long hiatus, and then she was brought back in 2006 and rewritten as a Jewish lesbian woman.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batwoman

I can see both sides of the argument/perspectives. No issue with a character being written that way, but also see people take issue with retconning a character that was not either of those two things, instead of being creative in inventing a new character.

Basically this, it's not even surprising
It's predicable at this point
Like any of the DC shows need another representation in that department.
I have no problem with gay or lesbian characters
But the TV DC universe it's rare that they're straight

 

[Toe-Knee]

Someone didn't get the point. A marrying couple kissing at a wedding is actually appropriate.

But that's a public display of affection in front of an often large audience.

I don't see how that is any more appropriate than two people kissing at an event where people have clearly been drinking. It's not like they went overboard out was just an honest simple kiss.

I get it if they were groping one another in public then yeah that's inappropriate.