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[chilleverest]

I'm sure many people who are complaining wouldn't do it if the game developer had an agenda they support.

Going according to the tradition is not called an agenda. Going contrary to the tradition and shoehorning is, which is the point of the vid.

 

[Forthefuture]

Why is it that whenver, someone claimd to have found a "balanced" video, it usually translates to "this person is totally defending my point of view but pays lips service to the supposed other side so I can present this as a bi-patisan aproach to a controversial situation without being judged". You dont have to be disingenuos you know. As for your fair video, it frames the vision of an artist as an agenda as if it is a political cult working behind the scenes. Their previous work should have cleared all the doubts about where naughty dog stand on social issues. They shouldnt be presented as insidious social engineers, preying on the impressionable as their games have been targeted to adult gamers who are more than capable of coming to their own conclusions.

TL, DR: Lesbians yo.

 

[DryvBy]

It´s funny how some people preach about the values and importance of a creators vision, that it should be maintained and not subjected to any form of censorship, that they should be free to create whatever they want without scrutiny, but when a creator has a vision about a lesbian couple, diversity, feminist themes or what not that don´t gel with these very same people they often seem to stand up and scream "AGENDA!" as loud as they can. How is that?

No one is saying they can't make a game based on whatever they want. One side is calling to boycott anything with activists on different media platforms also holding this banner. Another is just like "meh, I wish they wouldn't put stupid agendas in a game".

There's a huge difference between both. Like I hate visual novel "games" but I don't call to boycott them.

 

[Ogbert]

They shouldnt be presented as insidious social engineers, preying on the impressionable as their games have been targeted to adult gamers who are more than capable of coming to their own conclusions.

I think adult gamers are coming to their own conclusions; that's what we're discussing on this thread.

 

[ruvikx]

Okay...cool. We can have both. Is your point here that Kim Basinger in L.A. Confidential is a deeper character than Ellie so therefore Druckmann should have just bailed on Ellie as a character?

No, my point is that Druckmann doesn't get to define deepness or what a female character should be. He can make whatever he wants, but his Ellie character isn't automatically 'better' just because she isn't sexualized (which she is, actually, just not 'hetero-sexualized').

Was this a poll you took? I don't understand this point other than an attempt to be inflammatory. I'm going to go ahead and assume this is a hyperbolic straw man that you made up. I would disagree with Druckmann if he was just shitting on sexy characters for being sexy but I'm going to assume there was some additional context to this. Happy to be proven wrong though.

It's from the linked video. Minute 3:02 >

He essentially claims Cortana's physical attractiveness is "reductive" & makes her 'less" than what she could be... i.e. in a blatant "these characters are bad, mine are good" claim which is defined purely by the physical appearance of females (i.e. physical attractiveness = bad, bad, bad, as per Druckmann's social world view). This is bullshit & grotesquely simplistic which leads to many questionable conclusions, such as "beauty = exploitation" etc.

The militant behavior of these devs isn't helping either, i.e. valid questions vis-à-vis their claims cannot be raised because the response is usually a predictable "fuck off you bigot". It's a minefield, tbh.

 

[Aces&Eights]

Jesus Christ, who cares?!?. Everyone has an agenda. All the time. I play up to my woman when I know I am going to be asking something of her later. My boss compliments out department when there is a huge work load coming in a week. Car salesman have agendas. Attorneys have agendas. Who here has never tried to convince someone of something or to get them to see things in a different way? It's what people do! Just play the damn game or don't FFS

 

[Ogbert]

Attorneys have agendas.

How dare you!

 

[InterMusketeer]

You seem to suggest that Last of Us Part II should be relegated to a more niche genre of gaming and that bigger games with no agenda should be at the forefront because that's where the money is right now.

What I'm saying is that ND's games might become niche as they keep pushing their agenda.

It doesn't look like that's gonna happen anytime soon, and good for them.

 

[Ogbert]

By the way, on what planet is Ellie not an extremely beautiful young woman?

Are people suggesting she's not attractive?

 

[Forthefuture]

I think adult gamers are coming to their own conclusions; that's what we're discussing on this thread.

But they are questioning the merit of a game that hasnt even come out and yet based on the reaction from some of the people game being a plie of garbage is a foregone conclusion. I thought we were supposd to judge games on their own and not judge them on a perceived slight against a political side. Judge the work and not the artists social media history?

 

[Cactuarman]

He essentially claims Cortana's physical attractiveness is "reductive" & makes her 'less" than what she could be

Fair enough. I would not agree with Druckmann on this. But I do think "what she could" is an important part of that comment. Maybe I'll check out his full presentation when I get home to see if there's more reasoning there.

This is bullshit & grotesquely simplistic which leads to many questionable conclusions, such as "beauty = exploitation" etc.

Would also agree with you here. However, I do understand why someone would see Cortana over the course of the Halo games and go "hmm, I'm not a fan of how big her breasts got over time" or the Dead or Alive franchise and go "I don't like this." Full disclosure the first two games I bought for the original Xbox were Halo and DOA Xtreme. AND I imported the newest Xtreme, so I get it. However it literally is meant to be fan service. I understand someone not liking it and I would disagree if Druckmann didn't think it should exists (no clue if he'd actually advocate that it shouldn't exist - he probably just doesn't like it).

Also want to point out that Ayane in DOA and Kim Basinger in L.A. Confidential are widely different in their context and depth. Them both being "sexy" isn't a strong comparison.

The militant behavior of these devs isn't helping either, i.e. valid questions vis-à-vis their claims cannot be raised because the response is usually a predictable "fuck off you bigot". It's a minefield, tbh.

Yeah I guess we just disagree with "militant behavior" in this case. I would be willing to bet that someone simply saying "eh, no thanks" wouldn't be met with a "fuck off you bigot" by the vast majority of commenters but that's just speculation, I could be wrong.

 

[visiblemode]

Good video.

It is obvious that Druckmann has an agenda, which is fine. It is his game to make. The market will decide whether they like it or not.

The absurd notion that pointing the agenda out is somehow indicative of being on the wrong side of history though it what bothers me. I personally have no issues with Ellie being gay or sharing a kiss in game. That is part of what makes her a interesting character. I do kind of find it jarring that it would be the central focus of that trailer though. It felt forced. Like it was only there for the (negative) attention it would get (which in a way is good marketing I guess).



Now this is an interesting statement. It is completely contradictory. You enjoy the escapism of a game - of not playing yourself as a character, but you think that everyone should be represented arch-typically in games. Why should everyone be represented in games if gaming is about escaping reality to experience a story?

It is very much possible to represent all types of people without giving into tokenism for wokeness points. The entire series of the Uncharted games is very diverse, to the point that you don't notice it because it is natural. Diversity representation in the modern sense to the far left is all about segregation, at which point it becomes obvious they are ticking off checkmarks on a list of tropes. It is about taking away people's individuality.

What type of genitals you have and who you rub genitals with aren't the only defining characteristics for most people, I'd hope. Nor is your skin color. We are all a combination of many parts, and are individuals. No one will ever be fully represented in a game - because the game isn't about them.

I'll ignore the silly "straight male" remark.

...because everyone plays games...if not everyone is represented, then how can escapism be achieved for everyone?

Besides that very obvious point, you also assume that I think that all gaming should be escapism, just because I enjoy it. What I want is diversity in gaming fiction, just like in films and literature. I find playing a the same character over and over boring. If you like that, go ahead and stick to games that suit your tastes. No one is forcing you to buy anything.

 

[5secondrulesucks]

No, my point is that Druckmann doesn't get to define deepness or what a female character should be. He can make whatever he wants, but his Ellie character isn't automatically 'better' just because she isn't sexualized (which she is, actually, just not 'hetero-sexualized').

He essentially claims Cortana's physical attractiveness is "reductive" & makes her 'less" than what she could be... i.e. in a blatant "these characters are bad, mine are good" claim which is defined purely by the physical appearance of females (i.e. physical attractiveness = bad, bad, bad, as per Druckmann's social world view). This is bullshit & grotesquely simplistic which leads to many questionable conclusions, such as "beauty = exploitation" etc.

The militant behavior of these devs isn't helping either, i.e. valid questions vis-à-vis their claims cannot be raised because the response is usually a predictable "fuck off you bigot". It's a minefield, tbh.

these are some of my biggest problems with this whole situation. it becomes less about 'representation' but about what he thnks should be represented and in what manner it should be represented and if its not up to what he thinks is good it will be talked down to. the thing is there can be room for everything from sexualized characters to characters that have no sense of style and dress like truckers which druckmann seems to like

 

[Redshirt]

What I'm saying is that ND's games might become niche as they keep pushing their agenda.

I doubt this, and I'm someone who thinks ND is overrated.

 

[mckmas8808]

Couldn't really see where this fitted but didn't think it needed a new thread. Good piece by RobinGaming on the encompassing issues as a whole. While i can be applied broader, the content maker specifically narrows down on Naughty Dog for this piece though. Be warned! It is fair, balanced- maybe a couple of points are grasped at but overall a decent piece - 20 mins long

Oh here we go!

This is a sad day of affairs when so many people agree with this dude. It's super sad and shows me that this is a never-ending battle to prove that you as a person exist in this world. Just being in a game means that there's an "agenda" being formed. This gaffers makes a great point in another thread along these lines.

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/is-r...y-progressive-politics.1463485/post-253325362

Also in terms of mckmas8808's post:

"but it seems like if you are a minority or LGBT, your very existence is a liberal agenda to some people!"

Exactly. I think some people are ridiculous in how hard to make sure a non-white character (or non-straight, or even female sometimes) "makes sense" in the story (not counting specific historical stories, I can understand why a Hispanic guy playing a large role in an American Revolution film would feel out of place) and "how well they are written" but white characters (and males, and LBGT) are almost never given the same scrutiny by these certain people.

Like, hey, we got a future sci-fi show with a rag-tag group of adventurers. There's two white males, a captain and his main buddy, okay no need to examine them anymore, they're automatically good. A white female character, hmm okay, but she better not be "too competent", we'll likely not notice the guys displaying the same amount of skills but we got to examine her every move. A blue-skinned psychic alien character, yeah it's sci-fi, that works. A black guy and a Hispanic woman, hmm getting a little too diverse in here! Well, rest assured I'll be scrutinizing their character arcs very closely to make sure they're not just "thrown in" or something. I may not give the same amount of scrutiny to the two white male leads (and the alien, well unless he's Jar Jar Binks-level of bad, we all have standards) but we know white males are never "thrown in". Huh, a gay guy, oh come on. What are the odds of this small crew having a gay guy, I did the "totally accurate" math and that's really pushing it. I can fully accept the blue-skinned alien with three eyes and psychic abilities I mentioned earlier, but a gay guy is so out of left field! Well, as long as it's not shoved in our face or anything. I mean, the white male captain can bang all the human women and alien women he wants, but the gay guy, err, tell you what we'll let you have an off-focus kiss near the end of the series, mkay? Don't want to seem "political". Also, the boyfriend will also have to be white (or alien, because they get a free pass apparently), if he's black or Hispanic or so forth then that's too much. A gay couple is already a lot, an interracial gay couple, come on. I mean, I clearly know that would be pushing an agenda, it's not like the actors might simply have had solid chemistry together or something.

To reiterate, this does not apply to everyone, but there definitely are people who basically behave in the way I displayed in the above paragraph.

His point about Chloe and Nadine is super freaking stupid. It's NOT IN THE GAME!!!! It's fan art dude! Stop making it an offical thing that ND put in the game.

 

[Jon Neu]

The problem isn't The Last Of Us 2 having a lesbian character, the problem is the political agenda that has creeped his way into the cultural entertainment in a very forcefully manner, especially in the gaming world.

More or less nobody cares about a lesbian being the protagonists, what people don't like is having this politically correct message shoved down their throats everywhere they go. The holier than thou attitude and the constant inquisition to like those messages or then you are a bad person, get in the nerves of people too.

 

[nowhat]

The holier than thou attitude and the constant inquisition to like those messages or then you are a bad person, get in the nerves of people too.

Where is that "constant inquisition"? Granted, I follow little to no (mostly no) social media. But take for example the reactions to the TLoU 2 trailer here. There were many people decrying it immediately. How many were saying "like it or then you are a bad person"? The former I saw a lot. The latter - I must have missed it, but reference please if they exist.

 

[Jon Neu]

Where is that "constant inquisition"?

Literally everywhere.

Do you even remember the Ghostbusters trailer fiasco? Sony, the mainstream media, the director, the actresses, Hollywood and so on basically said that everybody that didn't like the movie was a woman hater. The most prevalent characteristic of people that advocate for "social justice" is telling how bad of a person is everybody that doesn't align with them and their rhetoric.

 

[nowhat]

Do you even remember the Ghostbusters trailer fiasco? Sony, the mainstream media, the director, the actresses, Hollywood and so on basically said that everybody that didn't like the movie was a woman hater. The most prevalent characteristic of people that advocate for "social justice" is telling how bad of a person is everybody that doesn't align with them and their rhetoric.

...and the movie was both a critical and commercial flop. There was a short tempest in a teapot for sure (intentional, even?), but it came and was gone pretty much immediately. I don't think anyone would crucify you for saying it sucks (which it does).

 

[Cybrwzrd]

...because everyone plays games...if not everyone is represented, then how can escapism be achieved for everyone?

Besides that very obvious point, you also assume that I think that all gaming should be escapism, just because I enjoy it. What I want is diversity in gaming fiction, just like in films and literature. I find playing a the same character over and over boring. If you like that, go ahead and stick to games that suit your tastes. No one is forcing you to buy anything.

No one is represented in games. That is my point. The whole idea of it is ridiculous. There are male characters and female characters, Blacks and Whites and Asians, and straight and gay but they aren't you. Everyone is far more than those descriptor combinations. Pigeonholing characters and people into stereotypes takes away their individuality.

There is plenty of diversity in gaming fiction. But just like in films and literature, when you intentionally start trying to represent stereotypes as a way of being inclusive, it never feels organic. If the focus is on writing interesting characters, which Naughty Dog has a good history of doing in the past, you can create interesting stories. Ellie kissing Riley was organic. This kiss on the other hand felt forced, and that may only be due to the context of how it was shown. There is no relationship shown between Ellie and this girlfriend. It would have been just as out of place had it been a heterosexual kiss.

If the only important ways to describe someone are in these tribal social justice terms then we must be a really boring species. If someone's most important traits are being a genderqueer asian, they probably are a really awful person to be friends with, and just as boring as some straight white male would be. We are more than those parts, I hope.

All gaming is escapism. Games aren't reality, like it or not.

 

[Jon Neu]

...and the movie was both a critical and commercial flop. There was a short tempest in a teapot for sure (intentional, even?), but it came and was gone pretty much immediately. I don't think anyone would crucify you for saying it sucks (which it does).

Like literally crucify me? I guess not, but being told you are an horrible person everytime you disagree with some political agenda, isn't a small thing either.

It's basically authoritarianism.

 

[InterMusketeer]

...and the movie was both a critical and commercial flop. There was a short tempest in a teapot for sure (intentional, even?), but it came and was gone pretty much immediately. I don't think anyone would crucify you for saying it sucks (which it does).

And then the same was attempted with Star Wars. Multiple times. And several other movies that prominently feature minorities one way or another.

I don't think you can just point to one movie or game or event and say "well yeah they tried but that flew over quickly." It's just something that lingers, abides everywhere.

 

[nowhat]

And then the same was attempted with Star Wars. Multiple times. And several other movies that prominently feature minorities one way or another.

I don't think you can just point to one movie or game or event and say "well yeah they tried but that flew over quickly." It's just something that lingers, abides everywhere.

Uhh, Star Wars. On a personal level, I was never a very huge fan, especially after the prequels and getting Disney take the wheel after that, but I feel that the issues with the two new "main entries" so far have nothing to do with minorities. Just that "Force Awakens" was a very low-effort reshuffle of "A New Hope". No matter who would have starred in it, it was basically the same movie. And "Darth-Emo" doesn't help either. As to "The Last Jedi", it took the bold approach of "hey, let's strip out everything people want from a Star Wars movie!". What it forgot to do was to replace that with anything, so we're left with an incoherent mess, but again, IMHO it's not the fault of minorities.

One point to consider. The gaming industry is huge nowadays. Yes, much of that is mobile "whales" and other suckers for predatory business practices, but also that means more and more people are playing games. Similarly for movies - while attendance may have been down in the US, globally it's still as good as ever. So, while some games/movies may be for "agendas" you don't agree with (whether by choice or by social pressure), there's a ton of content created for both mediums. Some may cater to new audiences. Others will probably be more traditional. Some may be even quite contradictory to current trends. Are you honestly telling me this "agenda" is lingering everywhere?

being told you are an horrible person everytime you disagree with some political agenda, isn't a small thing either

Who tells you this? If it's someone in your face IRL, you need to get new friends. If it's someone ranting on Twitter or such, you can ignore them - the internet has been full of vocal idiots since its conception. But consider this forum for example. Who has called you a horrible person? We are having a discussion, in which we disagree, yes - yet at least on a personal level I haven't felt the need to call you a "horrible person".

 

[Ballthyrm]

If they really want to break new ground with character studies, give us a fat dude in his fifties whose marriage is going nowhere but he is too weak to break up with her. The more average, the better.

Now if they could make me care about a character like that, i'll be impressed.

 

[InterMusketeer]

IMHO it's not the fault of minorities.

Why do you even bring this up? No one's arguing it's their fault. The point we're making here, is that people are attacked when they don't like these movies. They're labeled bigots, because according to some, the only reason one could dislike the new Ghostbusters or Star Wars is if you hate women or minorities.

Are you honestly telling me this "agenda" is lingering everywhere?

It is though. We see games getting cancelled or censored because they're deemed offensive or inappropriate. Specific elements of game and movies are criticized for doing the same. There's lots of groups who have intersectional feminst ideals that they try to force upon others.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

The OP and people who drink up the stuff the video in OP need to lay off the Jordan Peterson.

I find Peterson fascinating but this worshipping is just pathetic

 

[Jon Neu]

Who tells you this? If it's someone in your face IRL, you need to get new friends. If it's someone ranting on Twitter or such, you can ignore them - the internet has been full of vocal idiots since its conception. But consider this forum for example. Who has called you a horrible person? We are having a discussion, in which we disagree, yes - yet at least on a personal level I haven't felt the need to call you a "horrible person".

I'm from Barcelona, so this kind of politics are not as prevalent here as they are in the states (for now). Feminism is strong here though, and nobody has called me names IRL so far, but I think it's because I rarely talk politics IRL, not because the potential of a confrontation isn't there.

In this forum I have been called a lot of horrible things and I haven't even participated that much in it (i'm too politically incorrect, I guess). I have been banned today from a guitar forum for saying that a trans man that transitioned to a woman is still biologically a man. Apparently that makes me a transphobe.

SJW politics come with authoritarianism. If you don't follow them, you have to be bullied and lynched for the greater good (the punch a nazi thing encapsules well that way of thinking). That is their mentality.

 

[InterMusketeer]

The OP and people who drink up the stuff the video in OP need to lay off the Jordan Peterson.

I find Peterson fascinating but this worshipping is just pathetic

No one but you is refering to him in this thread.

Thanks for the laugh though.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

The OP and people who drink up the stuff the video in OP need to lay off the Jordan Peterson.

I find Peterson fascinating but this worshipping is just pathetic

What the hell?

He's totally unrelated to this but I'd recommend him to anyone interested in intelligent and thought provoking conversation.

 

[mckmas8808]

The problem isn't The Last Of Us 2 having a lesbian character, the problem is the political agenda that has creeped his way into the cultural entertainment in a very forcefully manner, especially in the gaming world.

More or less nobody cares about a lesbian being the protagonists, what people don't like is having this politically correct message shoved down their throats everywhere they go. The holier than thou attitude and the constant inquisition to like those messages or then you are a bad person, get in the nerves of people too.

So it's forced down your so-called throat because they showed two women kisses in an E3 trailer? Really my guy? You can't take that 15 seconds of kissing?

If they really want to break new ground with character studies, give us a fat dude in his fifties whose marriage is going nowhere but he is too weak to break up with her. The more average, the better.

Now if they could make me care about a character like that, i'll be impressed.

So it's really all about what you want as a character and not what the creatives want to explore huh?

The OP and people who drink up the stuff the video in OP need to lay off the Jordan Peterson.

I find Peterson fascinating but this worshipping is just pathetic

It's really sad. The guy in the video claims that ND is shoving this leftist stuff down our throats because Drake and Ellie at the end of Uncharted 4

Spoiler

have a daughter instead of a son and that if the series had to continue it'll be a girl and not a boy like everyone wants.

 

[n0razi]

I feel like people who use the term SJW are just as (if not more) sensitive as the people they are mocking.

When I play it, I will judge it on its own merits.

This

 

[GribbleGrunger]

It's really sad. The guy in the video claims that ND is shoving this leftist stuff down our throats because Drake and Ellie at the end of Uncharted 4

Spoiler

have a daughter instead of a son and that if the series had to continue it'll be a girl and not a boy like everyone wants.

Why are you lying? He's drawing a 'possible' conclusion from MANY different instances. Stop trying to boil the narrative down to a single instance in order to discredit his views. It's fine if you disagree but misrepresenting his thoughts like this isn't fair minded.

 

[mckmas8808]

Why are you lying? He's drawing a 'possible' conclusion from MANY different instances. Stop trying to boil the narrative down to a single instance in order to discredit his views. It's fine if you disagree but misrepresenting his thoughts like this isn't fair minded.

That's literally what he said though. I didn't say it was the only thing. You have to admit that he was stretching with that one. Like women make up 50% of the human population. Why what happened at the end of Uncharted 4 being so anti-male or agenda driven thing?

And he said that one lady that was hired to interview the Last of US II cast was only hired because she was a lesbian. Like really guy?

 

[Cactuarman]

Ellie kissing Riley was organic. This kiss on the other hand felt forced, and that may only be due to the context of how it was shown. There is no relationship shown between Ellie and this girlfriend. It would have been just as out of place had it been a heterosexual kiss.

I think you make some solid points and I think context is definitely really important. It's interesting to think about that Ellie and Riley kiss and if showing it in a pre-launch trailer would garner a similar "forced" reaction from some (especially at a time when her sexuality hasn't been shown at all).

I'm skeptical of the heterosexual kiss part of your point. When Chloe showed up out of nowhere in Uncharted 2 I don't remember anyone saying it felt forced. I remember being interested in who she was, her relationship to Drake, what happened with Elena, etc.

I realize this is conjecture though.

 

[B_Signal]

I didn't get to the end of the video, I got about half way through, it wasn't terrible, certainly better than anything that's introduced as being "fair and balanced usually is. That said. he starts drawing conclusions from non-canon, fan-art level stuff, and a bunch of what ifs for a game that isn't out yet and we've seen 3 trailers for, one of which included Joel (the other one talks about him). Whatever though, I've never seen any of this guy's other videos, I'm not going to start laying in to him


What I don't get though is why this is a problem. If Ellie walks around the post-apocalypse telling everyone that she's a lesbian then fair enough, bad writing, but no one has any idea what Last of Us 2 is yet. It could be a teen/early 20s Ellie struggling to have a normal life inside an abnormal world, not because she's a lesbian, or a woman, but because people are starting to rebuild but the world isn't "fixed" yet. Getting upset when you don't even know that there's a problem, assuming "the agenda" even is a problem, is just bizarre

Ogbert makes a decent point about how women are portrayed in Naughty Dog's games (and games in general if I'm going to put words in his mouth). Because of what games generally are, AAA games at least, we do tend to get a certain type of female protagonist, something like Cart Life probably does a better job, but I guess real world doesn't translate in to games too well

Personally I want some diversity in my games if only because I've been playing games for 30 years, and particularly during the last couple of generations, I'm tired of seeing the same stuff over and over. Plus I've friends who are from different ethnicities than me, I've an Indian friend (English but Indian descent) for example who has never played as as an Indian in a game. He got excited about The Order because the Indians were good guys and helped the hero, when I told him about Lost Legacy he said he wished his daughter was a bit older so she could play it with him


also, because this is long now, it's fine to not like the new Ghostbusters and Star Wars, neither are very good. If you make you case properly as to why then, assuming there is no reason for people to call you out on your views, no one will

 

[Jarbloko]

i miss the (crash-jak) naughty dog.. im not a big fan of photorealism characters.

 

[Jon Neu]

So it's forced down your so-called throat because they showed two women kisses in an E3 trailer? Really my guy? You can't take that 15 seconds of kissing?

It's funny how you ignore what people are saying and continue to spout the same thing over and over again.

 

[Ballthyrm]

So it's really all about what you want as a character and not what the creatives want to explore huh?

Feel free to re-read my sentence, game-devs can do what they want, nobody is stopping them, me having different ideas about what i find interesting doesn't detract from that.

 

[InterMusketeer]

That's literally what he said though.

You're wrong. He's refering to something Druckmann has stated before about Nathan's child:

Initially, in the epilogue, it was Nate’s son. Something similar happened with the mansion they go into. That was an old English guy’s house. She asked, “Well, what if it was a woman?”

It's not that people want Nate to have a son. It's something ND came up with themselves, then changed because this new character could also be a girl.

I mean, I just find that a very weird way to write your characters. Would anything change if this was a female character? No? Let's change it then! Most characters, especially in video games, could be gender swapped without issue, because their gender doesn't matter in he slightest. Drake could have been a woman the entire time, and all of the love interests men. It wouldn't have changed much about the games. In fact, if you gender swap Drake, you get a character that already exists: Lara Croft.

 

[nowhat]

We see games getting cancelled or censored because they're deemed offensive or inappropriate.

...this is an unprecedented state of affairs? It's been happening since like forever, no matter the medium. Not saying that I agree with it - while I consider myself fairly liberal, very much so even, I also loathe overt political correctness. So from my perspective, there's a lot of reactionary hysteria in the media nowadays. As there was before, but now with the rise of social media (which, in my opinion, is a plague upon mankind), some very niche but vocal voices can be heard. That doesn't mean the points they make would be valid at all, just that they get their 15 minutes of fame.

Still, I am quite baffled by the persecution complex some of you seem to be having. Yes, a few games are getting cancelled or censored. This has always been the case. Some movies cause a lot of public debate, this is hardly a new phenomenon either. But the point I was trying to make earlier, was that more games and movies are being made now than ever. Even if $FRANCHISE you liked doesn't appeal to you anymore, there are plenty of games to choose from.

I feel like people who use the term SJW are just as (if not more) sensitive as the people they are mocking.

This I have to agree with, even though as stated above I'm not a fan of overt political correctness. To me using the term "SJW" is like making a comparison to the Nazis. While the comparison may be apt (and it very, very seldom is), it just makes me gloss over the argument being presented, if any.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

That's literally what he said though. I didn't say it was the only thing. You have to admit that he was stretching with that one. Like women make up 50% of the human population. Why what happened at the end of Uncharted 4 being so anti-male or agenda driven thing?

And he said that one lady that was hired to interview the Last of US II cast was only hired because she was a lesbian. Like really guy?

That was the only thing in his video that pulled me up. The rest was well considered in my opinion.

 

[B_Signal]

You're wrong. He's refering to something Druckmann has stated before about Nathan's child:



It's not that people want Nate to have a son. It's something ND came up with themselves, then changed because this new character could also be a girl.

I mean, I just find that a very weird way to write your characters. Would anything change if this was a female character? No? Let's change it then! Most characters, especially in video games, could be gender swapped without issue, because their gender doesn't matter in he slightest. Drake could have been a woman the entire time, and all of the love interests men. It wouldn't have changed much about the games. In fact, if you gender swap Drake, you get a character that already exists: Lara Croft.

not quite. I don't think Drake's personality would work if you just changed the character model and voice actor, you'd have to do more work than that. I think Druckmann's stance is, and I admittedly don't know for sure so I could be chatting shit, that if you flipped a coin it should be a 50/50 chance, when characters could be anyone they still predominantly were male. He's trying to address that. For me that's fine, commendable even, I don't think it's as loaded as it comes across in the current climate

 

[GribbleGrunger]

Out of curiosity, how would people react to Drake's daughter having a sex change? You want everyone represented in video games! There you go.

 

[Hendrick's]

I'll ask again: should entertainment never contain something deeper? What form would you like to see all entertainment take? Keep in mind I am entertained by 1984, Rage Against The Machine, and Mad Max Fury Road - I imagine those would all be offensive to you.

Edit: typo

None of those are offensive to me. I not offended by Naughty Dog either. I just dislike their motivations. It's my perogative to do so and to call them out for being ham fisted and shoehorning in personal political views.

Why is it that whenver, someone claimd to have found a "balanced" video, it usually translates to "this person is totally defending my point of view but pays lips service to the supposed other side so I can present this as a bi-patisan aproach to a controversial situation without being judged". You dont have to be disingenuos you know. As for your fair video, it frames the vision of an artist as an agenda as if it is a political cult working behind the scenes. Their previous work should have cleared all the doubts about where naughty dog stand on social issues. They shouldnt be presented as insidious social engineers, preying on the impressionable as their games have been targeted to adult gamers who are more than capable of coming to their own conclusions.

TL, DR: Lesbians yo.

Your argument falls on it's face in light of Niel himself admitting to having a secret agenda.

 

[Jon Neu]

I feel like people who use the term SJW are just as (if not more) sensitive as the people they are mocking.

This I have to agree with, even though as stated above I'm not a fan of overt political correctness. To me using the term "SJW" is like making a comparison to the Nazis. While the comparison may be apt (and it very, very seldom is), it just makes me gloss over the argument being presented, if any.

I feel like people who try to appeal equidistant by putting those who criticize SJW and SJW at the same level, are always with a clear sympathy to SJW politics.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I think you make some solid points and I think context is definitely really important. It's interesting to think about that Ellie and Riley kiss and if showing it in a pre-launch trailer would garner a similar "forced" reaction from some (especially at a time when her sexuality hasn't been shown at all).

I'm skeptical of the heterosexual kiss part of your point. When Chloe showed up out of nowhere in Uncharted 2 I don't remember anyone saying it felt forced. I remember being interested in who she was, her relationship to Drake, what happened with Elena, etc.

I realize this is conjecture though.

It’s been a long time since I played Uncharted 2, but I also don’t remember any of the trailers focusing on a kiss between Chloe and Drake.

In game the kiss scene may work just fine. Making it central to their early marketing screams clickbait.

 

[InterMusketeer]

That doesn't mean the points they make would be valid at all, just that they get their 15 minutes of fame.

I don't think that's all they're getting. Social media allows morons and extremists to reach a large audience, and they have a tangible influence. Just look at #MeToo, which started on social media, and had some very real life consequences for people, including innocents. I remember a group of famous French women coming out with a letter that they thought this movement had gone too far. They were bullied into submission and retracted their statements. Don't act like it's just fools talking with no one listening or anything coming of it. There's real consequences, and sometimes they're unfair.

But the point I was trying to make earlier, was that more games and movies are being made now than ever. Even if $FRANCHISE you liked doesn't appeal to you anymore, there are plenty of games to choose from.

So? That means you can't talk about it anymore? People can't express their dismay with decisions companies are making?

 

[Redshirt]

I feel like people who try to appeal equidistant by putting those who criticize SJW and SJW at the same level, are always with a clear sympathy to SJW politics.

 

[Jon Neu]

 

[nowhat]

I feel like people who try to appeal equidistant by putting those who criticize SJW and SJW at the same level, are always with a clear sympathy to SJW politics.

I just feel it's a lazy term. But sure, I'm for inclusion - I may think it is lame or contrived (as was the case with the Ghostbusters reboot for example), but if someone wants to do it, go to town. Still, if you dislike it, there are plenty of other things to choose from.

So? That means you can't talk about it anymore? People can't express their dismay with decisions companies are making?

You sure can. But this to me seems to be more like people getting worked up over a game they were never going to get in the first place, which I just feel is funny and/or sad.