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Which 3D Sonic game do you believe is the best in quality?
- Thread starter Afro Republican
- Start date
Sid Of Bee
Member
SA2
Blood Borne
Member
3D Sonic is ewwwy but if I choose, it’ll be Sonic Heroes (Original Xbox version 60fps, PS2 version was sluggish).
My favourite Sonic still remains Sonic 2 Game Gear/Master System version, I prefer it to the Genesis version.
My favourite Sonic still remains Sonic 2 Game Gear/Master System version, I prefer it to the Genesis version.
Microsofts Hunert Smoke
Banned
This is a lie Sega fans continue to fall for.
Most of the 3D Sonic games post heroes WITH the padding are around 3 hours long. This is around a similar length to colors.
Sega can easily make a 5 hour 3D Sonic only game. Sonic Heroes length with ONLY Team Sonic is over 2 hours.
The fact Sonic/Sega fans keep falling for these excuses is why the fan base kept shrinking and nothings really improved.
Shit Sonic 06 Sonic story alone is also over 2 hours.
If the "padded" games are around 3 hours or less then it's kind of funny to see excuses about how "hard it is" to make a 3 hour game without padding.
decisions
Member
Generations and Colors are so fucking good, with Generation slighting winning it out. I really like that style of platformer and wish that they would expand upon the idea and really ship something amazing. However, after Forces I wonder if they won't mistake the reception for something inherently bad about 3D Sonic, when really it was a poor execution of the idea of 3D Sonic.
BlackTron
Member
Sonic Adventure, because it's the only game that has okay controls AND allows you to be Sonic uninterrupted for ten levels.
All of the other 3D Sonic games are absolutely terrible because they get the control/physics all wrong, even games that are otherwise great like Generations. Unfortunately for all the effort put into these games, they lack the fundamentals of what makes it Sonic. Adventure 1 is the ONLY title that escaped this, which to me is exasperating.
I also really loved Adventure 2 back in the day, but it mucks things up by forcing other gameplay styles on you and the brilliant idea of context-sensitive buttons in a speed-based game where the same button that spin dashes also causes a somersault that stops you in your tracks.
How can ideas that terrible be real, I don't get it. The only other game with okay physics, bombs its controls. This can't be THAT hard lol.
All of the other 3D Sonic games are absolutely terrible because they get the control/physics all wrong, even games that are otherwise great like Generations. Unfortunately for all the effort put into these games, they lack the fundamentals of what makes it Sonic. Adventure 1 is the ONLY title that escaped this, which to me is exasperating.
I also really loved Adventure 2 back in the day, but it mucks things up by forcing other gameplay styles on you and the brilliant idea of context-sensitive buttons in a speed-based game where the same button that spin dashes also causes a somersault that stops you in your tracks.
How can ideas that terrible be real, I don't get it. The only other game with okay physics, bombs its controls. This can't be THAT hard lol.
BlackTron
Member
If the fanbase is shrinking, wouldn't it be because they're NOT falling for Sonic Team's BS anymore?
Joelenheimer
Member
I feel it's a good bad game, I can always get to Eggmans lair but can never get past it.
Komatsu
Member
If you're a speedrunner, sure, the world record for 06 is currently about 56mins. Witcher 3's about 3hs and no one reasonable would say its "main story" is only 3h long.
Sonic 06 is about 15 hours long, Sonic Unleashed closer to 10, and both Sonic Adventures clock at around the 10-12 hour mark. No need to believe me, go check HLTB or Game Lenghts.
Sonic Colors and Generations are indeed on the shorter end - Colors is about 5h long and Generations, about 6h. It's not a coincidence those are considered the best games in the 3d era.
Exactly, people on the internet arguing X or Z is why Sonic Team keeps churning out terrible games.
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Microsofts Hunert Smoke
Banned
If you're a speedrunner, sure, the world record for 06 is currently about 56mins. Witcher 3's about 3hs and no one reasonable would say its "main story" is only 3h long.
Sonic 06 is about 15 hours long, Sonic Unleashed closer to 10, and both Sonic Adventures clock at around the 10-12 hour mark. No need to believe me, go check HLTB or Game Lenghts.
Sonic Colors and Generations are indeed on the shorter end - Colors is about 5h long and Generations, about 6h. It's not a coincidence those are considered the best games in the 3d era.
Exactly, people on the internet arguing X or Z is why Sonic Team keeps churning out terrible games.
This only works if you don't know how to read, and ignore the examples I gave in the post (which includes Sonic 06 but i guess you didn't want to read all the words in the post) for example:
Colors is close to 3 hours long minus cutscenes and bonus stuff, Generations ins't far with the same. Sonic 2006, as I said, Sonic story alone is over 2 hours. If you think Generations is six hours long hen you don't really seem to know what you're talking about. And since I was quoting someone who was talking about ONLY the 3D parts of games in a thread about 3D sonic it shows even more issue with your post.
Also where did the Witcher 3 come from
Microsofts Hunert Smoke
Banned
Are you going to pretend the stubborn part of the fanbase doesn't exist? I mean the ability for Sonic to reach Sonic Heroes level sales was destroyed after Sonic 2006, and now it's a question if the next main 3D Sonic game will even sell 1 million.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Afro Republican
I've got one question, even though this poll is very much relevant to my interests: Why did you list the obvious spin off Sonic the Fighters over Sonic Forces (mainline) or Sonic & the Secret Rings / Sonic & the Black Knight (side game, but so is Shadow)?
BlackTron
Member
No, and I wouldn't pretend the stubborn part of any fanbase doesn't exist. I'm not even saying that they aren't part of the problem with Sonic.
I'm saying that declining sales is not a good indicator of why a series refuses to change.
Microsofts Hunert Smoke
Banned
What are you even talking about?
The point was sales are decking because they ARE NOT changing.
Afro Republican
Banned
There are only 9 slots, would make no sense to add games no one would vote for sincerely like Sonic 06 while a game like Shadow actually has fans. Not to mention its basically just single character Sonic Heroes with guns anyway.
Starlight Lotice
Member
The gaming fanbase needs to shrink for SEGA to get a wake up call and start threatening Sonic Team to stick to one formula and get good at it.
The Franchise itself is a goldmine as it compliments the merchandise side of Mario and Pokemon that well, but the games are what keeps your fanbase on side (at least the older generation).
I love Sonic but some of the decisions make the games frustrating to play, and I do blame Ilzuka and the other directors thinking we "need" Sonic to keep changing.
I personally think It needs to stick to great platforming without too many frustrating pitfalls, an interesting Level Design Structure (I like Colours and Lost World because of this, less Cities as it doesn't really fit his aesthetic) and a preference to a more lighthearted approach to the story. (Non of the Darkgrim nonsense).
I am pretty shocked that SEGA are not greenlighting an Original Sonic Mania sequel (another stupid decison when they have finally got a great selling Sonic game that is still selling thanks to a physical presence, youtube series and merch! I bought an Amy T-Shirt and Coin to support this).
3D Sonic needs to stick to one thing and improve on it, regardless of critisisms of mechanics, because a mechanic can be improved over time (although Forces kind of went backwards from Generations).
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Vampire On Titus
Member
The 3D Sonic games are fucked up because many of them get different crucial elements right but there's never been a game to truly put it all together. The closest is probably SA 2 but it still has the shitty friends gameplay that is at best tolerable and at worst a slog.
Sonic Unleashed's daytime stages have amazing level design and the best S ranking the series has ever seen. It was so much fun perfecting those levels. But the character movement isn't perfect, Sonic feels far too sluggish when he's not boosting. It makes the first few runs through each stage less fun.
Generations has really good level design as well. Improved character movement where Sonic feels good if he's boosting or not. Really gets most things right but ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS S ranking. You can have a four course meal at the start of a Generations level, come back, fall through every pit, finish with no rings on the slowest route and STILL get an S rank. It's horrible. Totally killed the replay factor of that game for me.
Colors was cool but it's basically a 2D game. Also again S ranking is completely fucked. S ranking the levels in Colors basically just came down to spamming Wisp powerups for points. Drill in circles for 2 straight minutes, stumble to the finish line.
If there could be the perfect game that got the character movement, level design and ranking system right I would jump for joy. But SEGA always seems to reinvent the wheel or throw in some new stupid gimmick every time they're close to perfecting the formula. I've learned to expect flawed but enjoyable from the series.
Sonic Unleashed's daytime stages have amazing level design and the best S ranking the series has ever seen. It was so much fun perfecting those levels. But the character movement isn't perfect, Sonic feels far too sluggish when he's not boosting. It makes the first few runs through each stage less fun.
Generations has really good level design as well. Improved character movement where Sonic feels good if he's boosting or not. Really gets most things right but ABSOLUTELY DESTROYS S ranking. You can have a four course meal at the start of a Generations level, come back, fall through every pit, finish with no rings on the slowest route and STILL get an S rank. It's horrible. Totally killed the replay factor of that game for me.
Colors was cool but it's basically a 2D game. Also again S ranking is completely fucked. S ranking the levels in Colors basically just came down to spamming Wisp powerups for points. Drill in circles for 2 straight minutes, stumble to the finish line.
If there could be the perfect game that got the character movement, level design and ranking system right I would jump for joy. But SEGA always seems to reinvent the wheel or throw in some new stupid gimmick every time they're close to perfecting the formula. I've learned to expect flawed but enjoyable from the series.
Afro Republican
Banned
Sonic's been going down every entry for awhile now.
Sonic Unleashed> Sonic Colors> Sonic Generations> Sonic Lost World > Sonic Boom> Sonic Forces(?).
Sonic was basically destroyed after 06, I don't think a main 3D or 2D Sonic game is going to ever sell 3 million or more again during regular release. If it does happen again it'll be because of fire sales, late steam versions with their own fire sales, and maybe copies on every platform. Well, technically, that already happened to an extent with Forces so eh...
Afro Republican
Banned
That's just fake mode 7 that ain't 3D, lol. I'd have let it slide if you said Saturn 3D Blast.
GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
Afro Republican
Banned
Afro Republican
Banned
BTW, it says something about the reception of 3D Sonic games when a game that's half 3D and focuses on old levels is a top contender.
3D Sonic really needs to be given to another team, the Yakuza guys did Vanquish so they could do something.
Or if not restructure Sonic Team. Most companies would have done that after Sonic 2006, I know veterans in Japanese companies work differently but I mean, declining sales and constant bad reputation has to do something over there.
3D Sonic really needs to be given to another team, the Yakuza guys did Vanquish so they could do something.
Or if not restructure Sonic Team. Most companies would have done that after Sonic 2006, I know veterans in Japanese companies work differently but I mean, declining sales and constant bad reputation has to do something over there.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
That's just fake mode 7 that ain't 3D, lol. I'd have let it slide if you said Saturn 3D Blast.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Sonic Mania seems to still be selling despite being 16 months old now.
Forces apparently broke a million again, a first since Generations although the game is not well recieved.
I personally think Heroes was the Catalyst but Sonic 2006 took the fall (for a good reason).
Afro Republican
Banned
Mania isn't 3D. Mania did sell over 1 million though.
There are no links about Forces selling over 1 million however.. It started out worse than Boom and then got even with it after fire sales, but Sega never reported numbers, and it flopped in Sonics traditionally biggest regions. Not to mention according to Steam Spy previously, it was basically a flop on steam. Since the first couple months Forces vanished from all charts.
The only news about Forces sales was a statement by Sega saying they were "pleased" with the sales, but that's it.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Sorry , I meant the Sonic Franchise in general.
I thought SEGA reported that Forces did do 1 million when Mania was reported to have done the same? It probably did get there through Sales though but don't forget that Kids will buy Sonic regardless of the quality of the game so it probably got a spike in Sales over Christmas.
I know that they didn't state that it was good but for a 3D game it has been an increase since Generations.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
NN AI is being applied to level design, let's hope it gets good enough to mass produce such levels for cheap.
Frizzie
Banned
I have only played 1 but I want to vote for it.
Sonic Generations. My little boy got it for christmas a couple of years ago and we have played it together alot. Other than a few annoyances (found in most platform games) it plays really well and I think it still looks really good. I can't speak for the other games but another thing I like about it is that it has a ton of content.
Sonic Generations. My little boy got it for christmas a couple of years ago and we have played it together alot. Other than a few annoyances (found in most platform games) it plays really well and I think it still looks really good. I can't speak for the other games but another thing I like about it is that it has a ton of content.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
It does not use the old levels, but merely the aesthetics / themes of them though. The Generations levels are completely new designs. And the gameplay is also drastically different from the games the themes are coming from, except for Unleashed and Colours.
Afro Republican
Banned
Oh come on, you know exactly what i meant, even some of the reviews say it.
No it hasn't, Sonics been on dire straights for years. Forces is the worse selling one so far based on what we know and how it performed on charts, especially in the UK and US, Sonics strongest regions, were Forces failed miserably.
Sonic Unleashed> Sonic Colors> Sonic Generations> Sonic Lost World> Sonic Boom> Sonic Forces.
Sonic hadn't sold over 1 million on an initial run since Generations and that took awhile and price cuts (Lost World I think made it over 1 million a bit after the Steam versions was out but not sure.)
The Sonic audience never recovered from 06. We will never see a Sonic game 3D or otherwise sell 3 million again. Sonic Manias reached 1 million after awhile but mostly due to the hype and nostalgia grab it was, that's not going to work twice if there's a Mania 2.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Actually, no, I don't.
Afro Republican
Banned
you do, but anyway, the point is that Sonic is in a bad position. It can't sell 1 million by itself and needs nostalgia to sell just go over it.
3D Sonic been on a downward trends since Unleashed, the last time a 3D sonic game even hit 1 million was Generations (Lost World may have possibly just hit it with the steam version but not sure about that)
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Well, yes, economically, Sonic is in a tough position right now. But when we are talking games quality, which I thought we were, this is not too important. In particular, for the point of "using old levels", maybe reusing themes of the past helped sales, but more than that the fact that sales for two games (PS360 on the one hand, 3DS on the other) were combined here, has helped. Lost World was, as far as I know, pretty successful still. I hope the successor of Forces will perform better, considering Switch will be more established when it releases And Sonic Team hopefully offers a bit more content that is also challenging for casual players (i.e. those not interested in the performance aspect and rather just run through the levels once) to leave a better impression with many players.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Are we ignoring Sonic Mania's success regarding the Dire Straights comment? I agree with the 3D outings but I noticed you repeated your sentences as well rather than provide evidence as to why Forces has not sold a Million.
I got your message the first time round about how poor the sales have been as it is in your original post (that everyone can see) but it would be nice to be given concrete evidence that Forces really did worse than Boom because the latter did worse than Lost World (which did 700,000 on Wii U IIRC).
Unless we can confirm this as concrete we cannot state that Forces did worse than Boom.
Here is the Wiki article on Forces to give fair evidence on how SEGA felt.
"Sonic Forces received "mixed or average" reviews, according to review aggregator Metacritic. In the United Kingdom, the game debuted in fifth place on their all-formats chart. Sega stated in a financial report in February 2018 that the game "performed strongly".
Wasn't well recieved yet SEGA says it performed strongly financially, which usually means that even when it was budgeted, it performed as expected or better than expected.
JimboJones
Member
Been playing adventure 2 recently and honestly im at a loss at how anyone could like this game. The knuckles levels are horrible, tails levels are monotonous and sonic is either on rails or bugging out.
Komatsu
Member
The idea that Sonic is in "dire straits" isn't borne out by SEGA's released commercial figures and earnings statements. Even though most of the games were terrible, Sonic has performed quite decently across the board. Sonic Boom, released for a failed platform, achieved very respectable 620k units sold. Sonic Unleashed sold more than 2 million across 3 platforms. All Stars Racing, almost 2 million. Mania was way past the 1 million mark last time I checked.
Those games are not particularly expensive for SEGA to produce, as the vast majority of the staff is tenured and wouldn't leave anyway - Shun Nakamura and Takashi Iizuka, to mention two SEGA CS2 ("Sonic Team") bigwigs have been with SEGA for more than two decades, Iizuka being a STI veteran and Nakamura a former SEGA Saturn dev. Sonic Forces had only 45 people as part of its development staff, half of which were artists. The thing probably cost less than 900 million JPY - it easily paid for itself, no matter how puny the sales figures.
Those games are not particularly expensive for SEGA to produce, as the vast majority of the staff is tenured and wouldn't leave anyway - Shun Nakamura and Takashi Iizuka, to mention two SEGA CS2 ("Sonic Team") bigwigs have been with SEGA for more than two decades, Iizuka being a STI veteran and Nakamura a former SEGA Saturn dev. Sonic Forces had only 45 people as part of its development staff, half of which were artists. The thing probably cost less than 900 million JPY - it easily paid for itself, no matter how puny the sales figures.
Afro Republican
Banned
Forces has not sold a 1 million because we have sales charts numbers for UK/Japan, and NPD, which makes up the majority of each Sonic games sales and it launched at poor numbers. Sega also announced 1 million for Mania but never mentioned sales for Forces.
Also the fact Sega gave you NO numbers and used "preformed strongly" should tell you all you need to know. They even gave us Boom numbers. Forces entered the lowest any Sonic game did, it was non-existent in Japan and did poorly in the UK eventually falling from the list and staying off. it never charted on NPD.
There's enough evidence to suggest that the sales are likely booms because earlier it was unlikely that Forces even sold 200k, that's how bad it was selling in the charts. So could it have sold another 700k out of nowhere for no reason? No, because then it would have at least showed up on the charts somewhere to do so and it never did.
Afro Republican
Banned
This might be some of the best spin I've seen.
For one 620k is not respectable for a franchise that used to sell over 3 million and is the core IP and mascot of your company no matter how you spin it. Sonic went from selling near 3 million with Unleashed (on 4 platforms not 3) to selling less than 1 million in 2014. That's not good no matter how you slice it. You saying the games aren't expensive also contradicts Sega's own statements form some of the games.
But even IF they weren't, you don't sit and do nothing when your top franchises image and relevance is basically disappearing at a fast rate. You can only pull at nostalgia so many times, and it no longer has the pull it used to have back when Generations came out.
Komatsu
Member
Sonic Boom was only released for the Wii U* and, sorry, 620k copies puts it among the top 20% of that platform in terms of sales. You are comparing it to Unleashed, which was released on four platforms, as you pointed out yourself.
*There was a 3DS game with a similar name to Rise of Lyric, Shattered Crystal, but that was a different game.
As for dev costs, SEGA Sammy’s statements are publicly available and the period between 2008-2013 saw YOY reductions on their R&D expenditures, which speaks to the downsizing I mentioned. Haven’t looked at their 2017-18 numbers but doubt they are much different.
Feel free to post statements from SEGA leadership stating that SEGA CS2 games are expensive to produce.
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Starlight Lotice
Member
Despite being banned I will honour my end and respond in kind.
No we don't have sales numbers for the UK/Japan and NPD at all. In fact, the only way you can get numbers in the UK is if you have an insider (like the one on Era).
I am pretty sure SEGA did say this shortly after December of last year that Mania and Forces did similar numbers. Does that mean I am defending Forces sales? No. Do I expect it did better than the Boom series? Absolutely because 1) It is a main Sonic entry across 3 platforms. 2) It wasn't sent out to die like Boom. 3) Performed strongly usually means it did better than the previous 3D games. Which was Boom.
If you insist on being antagonistic about this then I am sorry to say that you don't really understand what goes on behind the scenes.
I didn't buy Forces, nor do I like the idea of it selling "well" but I will not turn a blind eye against false reporting like you are. Give me the Sales Numbers from the UK/US and Japan if you insist that it didn't do a million if you ever come back or just shut up proclaiming you know something we don't.
Wings 嫩翼翻せ
so it's not nice
I say most of my fun comes from Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes (GOAT-level game), Sonic Unleashed (I know... day missions were awesome though), and Shadow the Hedgehog... but Sonic Generations had that wow effect for when it was released, ergo I voted for it.
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Freedom Gate Co.
Banned
Sega never announced 1 million sales for Forces, this topics been beaten to death, not sure why Sonic fans keep bringing it up.
As for 3D Sonic games, they all feel like prototypes for a full game imo. Only Sonic Heroes to Shadow was there actual improvements made to the engine, Segas habit of changing the engine every game leaves no room for growth.
As for 3D Sonic games, they all feel like prototypes for a full game imo. Only Sonic Heroes to Shadow was there actual improvements made to the engine, Segas habit of changing the engine every game leaves no room for growth.
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