Support NeoGAF

[longdi]

Google Nintendo Sony know symmetry is the right way.

 

[LordRaptor]

Google Nintendo Sony know symmetry is the right way.

 

[ThatStupidLion]

Expected better hardware design tbh

 

[Breakage]

It looks like a “My First Game Console” type of controller.

 

[rəddəM]

At least it's not asymmetrical.
Still horrible.

 

[Ian Henry]

This could be game changing. There is definitely a need for some competition. I just hope Google executes it well.

 

[GlassAwful]

Whoever created that mockup is amateur hour. It doesn't remotely resemble the dimensions of the patent.

Its like they threw psvita nubs on an overly flattened and widened taken of the patent.

Pay no attention to this. It probably won't look like that anyway.

 

[VincentMatts]

I dunno one person that cares about this. This will be another Steambox.

 

[Alter_Fridge]

are your fucking hands symmetric with the thumb on the inside or no? wtf?

Asymmetrical sticks for lyfe. Why do you think the Switch controller is built that way

 

[cryptoadam]

I don't get these stick arguments. I guess since I am a Sony guy I have been programmed to use their controller, but Sony has sold close to 300 Million systems? They have killed their competition at the end of the day the majority of gamers play with the way sony sticks have been set up.

Maybe if I go XBOX next gen I will have a revelation and realize I have been doing it wrong all this time LOL.

 

[Can't decide]

Like others have said, that's one awful and uncomfortable looking controller. Rather cheap looking too.

I also don't get the Xbox controller love personally. I have two of both the PS and XB pads connected to my PC and only use the Playstation controller myself, I find it more comfortable and easier for my fingers to access all the buttons. I primarily play driving games and holding down the trigger for a while on the Xbox controller gives me aches and pains, whereas the PS pad doesn't. I also find it harder to steer really delicately with the Xbox controller.

Guess I'm part of a small minority.

 

[SlashBringingHasher]

Asymmetrical sticks for lyfe. Why do you think the Switch controller is built that way

because they are idiots. hands are symmetric. your brain is not apparently. or theirs

 

[benjohn]

My thumb aches just looking at it

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I'd rather have the Steam controller, and not gearing it towards capability for mouse / trackpad is a huge mistake in terms of the limited set of genres this kind of gamepad suits.

 

[bitbydeath]

It is on the pc where you can choose which one you use.

Receipts?

 

[TacosNSalsa]

I never had a problem instantly adjusting to either or . Once the symmetrical sticks aren't too close together so my thumbs hit and the asymmetrical left stick isn't too close to the edge so my thumb gets a cramp I never had an issue .. that controller though is ugly AF

 

[TLZ]

I'm one who seamlessly jumps from one controller to the other with no issues. Zero. They all feel good.

My only slight confusion comes when I go from Xbox to Nintendo or vice versa and the buttons are all the opposite; X is Y and so on.

 

[BlackTron]

In any job with a user movable camera, think FPS and lots of TPS games, your thumbs are constantly on both hence why I still struggle to appreciate asymmetric designs... less so on Xbox 360 than Switch where the joycon make asymmetric design quite painful for FPS games...

I knew someone was going to say FPS, and already thought my reply would be "yeah but if you're playing FPS and care why are you using a controller", but then thought "nahh I don't want to hijack the thread with that same old BS, I'm just expecting an argument, it won't happen!" but I was wrong LOL.

 

[Dontero]

It amazes me even more that people fail to realize that the asymmetrical stick layout that Xbox uses is widely considered superior to the symmetrical layout. More PC gamers I'd bet use Xbox controllers vs DS ones. Hell, they even make controllers for PS4 that have asymmetrical sticks.

Nothing wrong with you preferring one over the other, but your whole "It amazes me people don't understand" spiel doesn't fly. Most people do understand... And still prefer it the opposite way from you.

It is on the pc where you can choose which one you use.

Yeah i need that source from you, because i don't believe it one bit. Last time i checked only X360 controller is ONLY officially supported pad for PC which skews whole thing and there are probably more people either way using DS3/4 because it makes no sense to have PC and Xbox vs PC and ps3/4 and there are far more consoles from Sony than MS family. All ds3/4 are emulating X360 pads (so other non ms or sony pads) so even if you use something like steam survey it will not show up properly.

While I don't want a war of any kind, asymmetric joysticks make sense.

Your thumb is most relaxed when resting next to index finger, like your left hand on the left joystick on an Xbox controller. Close to all games use the left joystick for movement of some sort, so your thumb will be on it most of the time, in the resting position.

How is asymmetric "resting position" ? Do you understand what your hand position is when it holds pad ?
Take your pad into your hand and let your thumbs relax without moving them.
Rest position of those will be sticks place in symmetrical fashion.
The only way thumb can be near index finger at resting position is when you use mouse due to how your hold mouse.
And everytime you talk about assymteric being "the best" you ignore the fact that you have other thumb in as you described "inferior" placement.

Imho people don't realize difference between concave and convex thubs and what that means. They argue for asy/simetric pads but they means push vs pull mechanics which is far more important for some people than where thumb goes.

Concave is great for precision but it tires thumbs quickly while push mechanic requires a lot more skill and is less precise but thumb never gets tired.

 

[Solid Slammus]

Basic as fuck. No grip buttons. Just a regular controller. Weak.

 

[Larxia]

I really don't understand people being anti asymmetric, it's just way more comfortable for me.
The "your hands are symmetric, so asymmetric is dumb" argument isn't valid since when you play a game, in 90% of the games and 90% of the time, you will have your left thumb on the stick, and your right thumb on the buttons, so the asymmetric design actually makes your thumb position more symmetric than a symmetric design.
If you were to play a game that only plays with the d-pad, like a 2D game, then yes, symmetric is better, but for joystick played games? No.

It's like people are just criticizing asymmetric out of principle without even thinking of how their thumbs are positionned on the controller.

Also, back on original topic, I just hate it everytime I see something trying to push streaming gaming, I really don't want that future.
Also, switching the colors is dumb imo, should have kept the color positions of Xbox, this would have made it less confusing for people used to Xbox and when switching controller. It's like Nintendo with their A B X Y buttons all inverted.

 

[JChris]

This controller doesn't look like comfortable in any way.

 

[Badlucktroll]

Instead of a streaming service, rumors are saying that its an actual console to compete in the 3 way market. The industry is due for a shakeup i think. I am getting the willies that a google console will shepherd the exit of Microsoft.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

I would say Xbox One is the best designed controller, followed by the wiiu and switch pro controller. Ps4 doesn't even come into the equation. Dualshocks have always been ass blastingly terrible.

 

[LordRaptor]

Yeah i need that source from you, because i don't believe it one bit. Last time i checked only X360 controller is ONLY officially supported pad for PC which skews whole thing and there are probably more people either way using DS3/4 because it makes no sense to have PC and Xbox vs PC and ps3/4 and there are far more consoles from Sony than MS family. All ds3/4 are emulating X360 pads (so other non ms or sony pads) so even if you use something like steam survey it will not show up properly.

Steam input API makes all controllers work as though they are native inputs on the PC, so no all dualshocks aren't 'emulating' a 360 pad, and steam input surveys are indeed accurate about specifically what controller is used.
The DS4 should be more commonly used, because it has a touchpad which can be a substitute for a mouse input where necessary (like menus), but it still has the stupid aesthetic not ergonomic symmetric design.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1712946892833213377

 

[Alter_Fridge]

because they are idiots. hands are symmetric. your brain is not apparently. or theirs

There's also a reason the Xbox controllers get voted best of all time. Offset is just ergonomically more comfortable

 

[Kdad]

https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/9/1...oller-project-stream-streaming-service-render

The patent itself says that the diagrams are not to be taken as representative...and the render is just a render of the patent that isn't from Google.

This patent was originally spotted by Yanko Design (via Twitter), who created a render based on the included patent drawings. However, Google’s patent does note how the drawings are just an example that lacks detail.

No attempt is made to show structural details in more detail than may be necessary for a fundamental understanding of the disclosed subject matter and various ways in which it may be practiced​

.​

Everyone relax lol.

 

[cryogenic7]

They have quite a way to go. I have uber fast internet connection and was in the Project Stream beta and the technology wasn't up to the task yet imo.

 

[The_Mike]

It always amazes me when people don't understand that this setup follows hands natural resting position.
It is superior because you don't stress your thumb like you would normally by using alternative xbox stick placement.

Fun fact: before the ds controller got sticks people used the D-Pad, which has the same place as the left XO controller. The sticks were an afterthought, which is why they are positioned as they are.

 

[EGOMON]

Well making the analog stick parallel immediately makes it trash so GG

Well good thing human hands are asymmetric oh wait

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

It needs to be shaped more like the PS4 controller.

 

[hokagespit]

Steam input API makes all controllers work as though they are native inputs on the PC, so no all dualshocks aren't 'emulating' a 360 pad, and steam input surveys are indeed accurate about specifically what controller is used.
The DS4 should be more commonly used, because it has a touchpad which can be a substitute for a mouse input where necessary (like menus), but it still has the stupid aesthetic not ergonomic symmetric design.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1712946892833213377

That could still be due to ease of use, I know my computers don’t recognize a ps4 controller without ds4 windows, so if I want plug and play a 360 controller is still the go to route.
I honestly couldn’t tell anyone how my hands were oriented when I’m holding a controller. It’s not something I realize til I go to crab claw. So maybe I’d rather them parallel so this could be done still
If it’s true about that being a third party render and it won’t be a sharp edged mobile looking controller it could be decent....

 

[Foxbat]

Steam input API makes all controllers work as though they are native inputs on the PC, so no all dualshocks aren't 'emulating' a 360 pad, and steam input surveys are indeed accurate about specifically what controller is used.
The DS4 should be more commonly used, because it has a touchpad which can be a substitute for a mouse input where necessary (like menus), but it still has the stupid aesthetic not ergonomic symmetric design.

https://steamcommunity.com/games/593110/announcements/detail/1712946892833213377

Asymmetrical by a landslide, despite Dontero's point regarding how many PS4's are out there vs XB1's.

 

[IncognitoPanda]

Yeah i need that source from you, because i don't believe it one bit. Last time i checked only X360 controller is ONLY officially supported pad for PC which skews whole thing and there are probably more people either way using DS3/4 because it makes no sense to have PC and Xbox vs PC and ps3/4 and there are far more consoles from Sony than MS family. All ds3/4 are emulating X360 pads (so other non ms or sony pads) so even if you use something like steam survey it will not show up properly.



How is asymmetric "resting position" ? Do you understand what your hand position is when it holds pad ?
Take your pad into your hand and let your thumbs relax without moving them.
Rest position of those will be sticks place in symmetrical fashion.
The only way thumb can be near index finger at resting position is when you use mouse due to how your hold mouse.
And everytime you talk about assymteric being "the best" you ignore the fact that you have other thumb in as you described "inferior" placement.

Imho people don't realize difference between concave and convex thubs and what that means. They argue for asy/simetric pads but they means push vs pull mechanics which is far more important for some people than where thumb goes.

Concave is great for precision but it tires thumbs quickly while push mechanic requires a lot more skill and is less precise but thumb never gets tired.

By next to index finger I simply mean pointing forwards. As in rest yourhand without holding anything.

And my entire point was that you use your two hands differently when holding a controller. Right thumb goes back and forth, while left thumb rarely leaves the joystick

 

[Bernkastel]

Instead of a streaming service, rumors are saying that its an actual console to compete in the 3 way market. The industry is due for a shakeup i think. I am getting the willies that a google console will shepherd the exit of Microsoft.

You do realise Microsoft entered the market with its own first party like Bungie and lots of exclusives. I am not even kidding, at that time even EA was not multi-platform and the Xbox had hundreds of exclusives that cemented its position as a competitor. Google has none. It is a known fact that Google sucks at hardware, especially compared to Microsoft. So, with an inferior hardware and only 3rd party, no disc drives, no first party games and sub-par 3rd party support, how will this signal the end of Xbox. I can see it as an Apple TV competitor and play Play Store games.

 

[kraspkibble]

Microsoft and Nintendo are the only ones who seem to know how to make a good controller.

The 360/One + Switch Pro controllers are the best ever made. The DS4 might as well stand for Dog Shit because that's what it is. This google controller looks even worse somehow...

 

[Cato]

As an ex-googler (yeah I was actually peripherally part of turning down the reader jobs)
i seriously hope they are 100% monthly subscription based and there is NO possibility to purchase games or items.

At Google, the only way to get a promotion is to launch a service. I.e. Moving the needle.
You can not and will never get a promotion by fixing and maintaining an existing service, no matter how broken it is or how much it needs fixing.

Now, what would you do? Work on something new that may get you recognition and a promotion? Or work on a dead-end project with no prospects for recognition or promotion?
(Work too much on dead-end projects and it might even tarnish your promo package long after. "Why did this person work on shit project xyz for so long? Looks like lack of initiative and lack of cognitive business acumen." And your promo package is dead. If not forever at least for a bloody long time.

This is exactly why so many non-core projects are launched and later it looks like they were abandoned. Seriously, internally in google they were abandoned once launched and all promos that could have been extracted were.


Dear fucking god. Since this will be a consumer offering that will be launched and later abandoned. Please fucking god make it a monthly subscription you can just terminate rather than having people had purchased games/skins/.../whatever and later losing all access to it when the service is turned down.

 

[Hudo]

I like my controller like I like my faces: Asymmetrical.

Call me an old fuck but if Google's only method of "acquiring" games is via some online store or some Netflix-like subscription service, they can fuck right off with this.

There's also the issue that I don't really trust Google with long-term support for their stuff. But maybe I will eat a pile of crow when they actually present this.

 

[Yoshi]

because they are idiots. hands are symmetric. your brain is not apparently. or theirs

I have answered to that before, but you did not acknowledge it, but continued the same wrong argument: You use the left stick and the buttons for most games (i.e. almost all but 2D games and fps/tps). These elements are symmetrically positioned on Xbox controllers and asymmetrically positioned on Dual Shocks.

 

[AlexxKidd]

It would seem Google is stealing from the king. Basing their controller on the Dual Shock. And why would they do that? Because the DualShock 4 Wireless Controller Black is the all-time best-selling Gamepad in dollar sales. Money talks, BS walks.

As for the controller itself, looks a little too angular. reminds me of the sharp angles of the Madcatz Fighting Pad. I prefer the softer, rounder handles of the Dual Shock, but I need to hold this in my hand for a period of time before making too many judgements.

 

[LordRaptor]

Because the DualShock 4 Wireless Controller Black is the all-time best-selling Gamepad in dollar sales. Money talks, BS walks.

dollar sales is a less useful metric than unit sales if you want to actually know what people are buying, and the NPD only track North America.

 

[AlexxKidd]

dollar sales is a less useful metric than unit sales if you want to actually know what people are buying, and the NPD only track North America.

And I also know they're talking specifically about the individual black controller SKU, but I suppose you think Xbox and/or Nintendo has a better selling controller OUTSIDE of the US? If the Xbox can't outsell them within the US, they're not doing it outside. Nintendo hasn't released a good controller since the Super Nintendo. So I'm all ears on this controller you think beats Sony's worldwide? The only possible challenger is the Wii's wands, but that's novelty and hardly something someone like Google would be emulating for their system.

 

[WaterAstro]

Symmetry is perfection.

That's why Microsoft has lost this gen, and the gen before that, and the gen before that.

 

[ResilientBanana]

I don't mind the PS4 controller, but I prefer the Xbox One Controller. #teamasymetrical

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Symmetry is perfection.

That's why Microsoft has lost this gen, and the gen before that, and the gen before that.

Because of asym sticks on the controller?

Also, didn't 360 "win?"

 

[DeepEnigma]

Fun fact: before the ds controller got sticks people used the D-Pad, which has the same place as the left XO controller. The sticks were an afterthought, which is why they are positioned as they are.

Fun fact number two, you also used the face buttons 100% so both your thumbs were constantly laying in a... symmetrical position.

The moral of the story, there is no right or wrong way just preference, and it shouldn't be a fanboy dick measuring contest goodness.

 

[Three]

dollar sales is a less useful metric than unit sales if you want to actually know what people are buying, and the NPD only track North America.

The dualshock controller is cheaper than the other controllers and doesn't have a version twice the price so unit sales is equal or more in ranking.

That being said controller unit sales are related to install base and having to buy replacements for those atrocious initial batch analogue sticks.

Still, never understood people preferring asymmetric sticks while they were talking about FPS/TPS games like Halo and gears all those years ago. Made no sense.

 

[FranXico]

Instead of a streaming service, rumors are saying that its an actual console to compete in the 3 way market. The industry is due for a shakeup i think. I am getting the willies that a google console will shepherd the exit of Microsoft.

That would interest me indeed.

 

[Solid Slammus]

Imagine yourself waking up, getting out of bed. You're suddenly in the shoes of an adult professional (if that's not already what you are), who is about to leave for work. You wash up, don your work clothes, and hop into your car. You notice you're running a little early, so you decide to take the scenic route and enjoy a slow drive.

You're driving down an idyllic country road. The sun is rising off in the distance, casting an amber glow onto the earth. You're enjoying the cool breeze through the windows, as the warm light of the sun comforts you and radies you for the day ahead.

Driving along, you take notice of two large animals standing at the side of the road. Curious, you slow down as you pass, and notice that each animal is being led by a man, the two of whom are embroiled in an amicable - but intense - debate. The two men flag you down and welcome you to their discussion, as they are in dire need of a third opinion, or at least, a mediator. You've got the time and these fellas seem nice, or at the very least, entertaining, so you hop out of your car to hear them out.

This man rides his horse to work. The other man rides his donkey. They're both beautiful animals, well-kept, well-groomed, and as far as you can tell, treated well. This comes as a minor surprise to you, because these men aren't farmers or Amish or anything like that - they appear to be working professionals, just like you, dressed and ready for a day at the office. Intrigued, you come to learn that what began as an innocuous conversation about what it must be like to have to ride the other animal to work every day, became a debate about the relative merits of owning, raising, and driving a donkey, versus a horse. And while both men have made great strides in understanding why the other man prefers the other animal, each man insists that a horse, or a donkey, is the way to go to work!

So you hear them out. And their arguments for their chosen animal are quite sound. You can completely understand why the horse rider loves riding horses. You can completely understand why the donkey rider loves riding donkeys. And you understand that these men both mean well. After each man has gone to great lengths to explain their side of things to you, they give you a minute to think, so that you, a man who apparently rides neither donkey nor horse, can weigh your unbiased opinion and deliver it accordingly. And after mere moments of thought, you turn to the men and say this: "...have either of you thought about maybe driving a car to work?"

Both men laugh. The man with the horse howls, "Have you ever tried to learn to drive a car? It ain't near as easy as just riding your horse!". The man with the donkey concurs, saying, "What's the point? Don't you think cars are a little redundant? We've made do with donkeys for years and years, and we got along just fine!". The other man chuckles and replies, "you mean horses, pal!", at which point they resume their jaunty debate. You chuckle a bit too, hop back into your car, and continue your slow drive, knowing full well that if for some reason, you need to go fast this morning, you'll be able to do so without a second thought, because you're not driving a horse, or a donkey. You're driving a car.

I feel like the man driving the car, whenever I read people online arguing about the relative merits of stick placement, and how the placement of a stick will impact the usefulness of a controller. "Your thumb should be on the face buttons playing most games", and "your fingers should have ready access to the right stick when playing specific popular genres"... these are reasonable statements, if you're of the perspective that the 2 stick, 4 shoulder, 4 face button style of controller popularized fifteen years ago represents the apex of the 'video game controller's' potential. And yet, so many of the problems that people see in one permutation of this style of controller or another, have been solved in recent years, through minor augmentations to the traditional controller, including grip buttons, touch pads, and the inclusion of gyro. And despite this, so many gamers will just scoff at the notion that something new, that must be learned, could possibly improve upon that which they already know, as if they don't remember that that tried and true dual-analog setup itself wasn't something that simply came naturally to most of us to begin with. I'll never understand people who just handwave away potential genuine improvements and advancements to control as 'gimmicks', as though their desire for the entirety of game design on a given platform to conform to an input setup that has proven its own limitations time and time again throughout the years is something laudable.

 

[Gamezone]

If the idea of streaming games wasn't bad enough, I won't be touching that controller.