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[Afro Republican]

Digital games you just throw them in a marketplace and a fee.

With Bluray you have 11 (!) additional costs:

1. Production of disc

2. Print of disc.

3. Labeling of Disc

4. Formatting for the forma.

5. Needing tools for the format.

6. Licensing

7. Manufacturing in mass

8. Retail cost

9. Distributor cost

10. Software expenses

11. Drm expenses

That's a crazy amount of money for a format that doesn't make you profit.

I use format my forma all the time when I install my Trojan virus to hack my DRM. It allows the registry to play my Blu Ray file over Tor.

I don't even know what this post is, how is labeling and printing not the same thing? DRM expenses???

 

[LordOfChaos]

2. You can't tout that you are going to have a "fast SSD Drive" in the PS5 and say loads will take one second if you are still using Bluray. When you install from Bluray you're also running the Bluray data and codecs on the machine, which an SSD drive won't do much to increase the speed of because that format is naturally slow, especially since it checks DRM. Even if you were to add a bit of laser disc read, it would only marginally increase the speed. It's like you having a 20watt phone wanting a 30wat charge from the charger, you can't charge at 30 wats if the phone is capped at 20, the SSD drive is basically useless outside Digital games.

Wha? Games are already mandatory hard drive installs as of this generation. The install is only a one time thing, and after that just checking the disk for DRM doesn't take that long.

I'm also 95% digital already so don't really care, but this is still a weird point. If it didn't have blu-ray, people would complain about that.

 

[Hendrick's]

Oh, this is that "Blu-ray is dead" fella.

 

[Kenpachii]

Yes but you can't place a PS5 Bluray in an Xbox. This is the part you guys aren't getting, there's system software in the disc that is proprietary. So that also downloads to the SSD when you install the game.

I can also not put a PC cd-rom in a PS1 and make it work.

That's not because of the medium, that's because the data on it is not compatible with the device you put the data in. It's just software it has nothing to do with blu-ray.

And no you don't need system software on the disc at all. It's just a installer.

You make no sense at all.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Ok you guys don't seem to be getting it, so after this post we can agree to disagree but it's clear some of you don't understand how this works. This post is for you.

STEP !:

When you have a PS5 disc that Bluray disc only works for the PS5. It won't install on an Xbox, that's because of software in the disc that's made specifically for the PlayStation. We clear?

STEP 2:

When you install your PS5 disc to a SSD, it downloads the game files, AND the proprietary software to the storage. Because the Install requires a PS5 to run. If you move that same install to an Xbox SSD, it won't boot.

STEP 3:

Now that all that is cleared up, here's the part that's hanging up everyone in the thread. So pay attention now, when you make machine specific software inside a BR disc, it has to keep in mind the size and TYPE of BR disc that the software is being installed in. Ok we good?

STEP 4:

Because of Step 4, when you install the game to your SSD drive, that install had the same limitations outside the disc as on the disc.

STEP 5:

Finally, because of Step 4, when you have a fast SSD drive, the game will not take advantage of those load times because the installed data has a cap. SSD drives have much fasters speeds than Bluray. This means that even with a SSD, the game you installed will only run as fast as what the limit on the disc was.

So what I am getting at is that it's useless to use the Bluray format for the PS5 if you can't even take advantage of the SSD.

That's all I'm saying.

Hopefully that finally clears everything up.

 

[Moses85]

I am sure Cerny knows what he is doing. We are talking about Sony, not Nintendo.

 

[Panda1]

this thread should have been closed after post 15, rebutting the 2nd presumption in OP.

 

[Afro Republican]

Ok you guys don't seem to be getting it, so after this post we can agree to disagree but it's clear some of you don't understand how this works. This post is for you.

STEP !:

When you have a PS5 disc that Bluray disc only works for the PS5. It won't install on an Xbox, that's because of software in the disc that's made specifically for the PlayStation. We clear?

STEP 2:

When you install your PS5 disc to a SSD, it downloads the game files, AND the proprietary software to the storage. Because the Install requires a PS5 to run. If you move that same install to an Xbox SSD, it won't boot.

STEP 3:

Now that all that is cleared up, here's the part that's hanging up everyone in the thread. So pay attention now, when you make machine specific software inside a BR disc, it has to keep in mind the size and TYPE of BR disc that the software is being installed in. Ok we good?

STEP 4:

Because of Step 4, when you install the game to your SSD drive, that install had the same limitations outside the disc as on the disc.

STEP 5:

Finally, because of Step 4, when you have a fast SSD drive, the game will not take advantage of those load times because the installed data has a cap. SSD drives have much fasters speeds than Bluray. This means that even with a SSD, the game you installed will only run as fast as what the limit on the disc was.

So what I am getting at is that it's useless to use the Bluray format for the PS5 if you can't even take advantage of the SSD.

That's all I'm saying.

Hopefully that finally clears everything up.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES ANY OF THIS POST HAVE TO DO WITH YOUR CLAIM THAT "TONS" OF COMPANIES ARE LEAVING BLU RAY IN MASS BECAUSE THEY ARE LOSING LOTS OF MONEY?????

 

[Kenpachii]

Ok you guys don't seem to be getting it, so after this post we can agree to disagree but it's clear some of you don't understand how this works. This post is for you.

STEP !:

When you have a PS5 disc that Bluray disc only works for the PS5. It won't install on an Xbox, that's because of software in the disc that's made specifically for the PlayStation. We clear?

STEP 2:

When you install your PS5 disc to a SSD, it downloads the game files, AND the proprietary software to the storage. Because the Install requires a PS5 to run. If you move that same install to an Xbox SSD, it won't boot.

STEP 3:

Now that all that is cleared up, here's the part that's hanging up everyone in the thread. So pay attention now, when you make machine specific software inside a BR disc, it has to keep in mind the size and TYPE of BR disc that the software is being installed in. Ok we good?

STEP 4:

Because of Step 4, when you install the game to your SSD drive, that install had the same limitations outside the disc as on the disc.

STEP 5:

Finally, because of Step 4, when you have a fast SSD drive, the game will not take advantage of those load times because the installed data has a cap. SSD drives have much fasters speeds than Bluray. This means that even with a SSD, the game you installed will only run as fast as what the limit on the disc was.

So what I am getting at is that it's useless to use the Bluray format for the PS5 if you can't even take advantage of the SSD.

That's all I'm saying.

Hopefully that finally clears everything up.

Step 3.

No, its just a installer it never assumed you would play the game through the blu-ray disc to start with.

Step 4:

It will take advantage because the medium is faster and will push data faster. Welcome to PC's.

 

[EviLore]

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

i made a VERY explanatory post above with 5 steps to clarify how game disc software works. Please take some time to read and research it. If you still don't agree I don't know what to say, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I invite everyone to take a look at that post, I think it really clarifies everything.

 

[LordOfChaos]

By the way, where was this?

"It has been revealed in the same interview as the "PS5 Specs" that the PS5 will continue to use bluray. "

 

[jshackles]

i made a VERY explanatory post above with 5 steps to clarify how game disc software works. Please take some time to read and research it. If you still don't agree I don't know what to say, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I invite everyone to take a look at that post, I think it really clarifies everything.

I looked at that post, it's just factually incorrect. We will definitely agree to disagree on this one.

 

[LordOfChaos]

i made a VERY explanatory post above with 5 steps to clarify how game disc software works. Please take some time to read and research it. If you still don't agree I don't know what to say, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I invite everyone to take a look at that post, I think it really clarifies everything.

...................
Because of Step 4, when you install the game to your SSD drive, that install had the same limitations outside the disc as on the disc.

STEP 5:

Finally, because of Step 4, when you have a fast SSD drive, the game will not take advantage of those load times because the installed data has a cap. SSD drives have much fasters speeds than Bluray. This means that even with a SSD, the game you installed will only run as fast as what the limit on the disc was.

So what I am getting at is that it's useless to use the Bluray format for the PS5 if you can't even take advantage of the SSD.

That's all I'm saying.

Hopefully that finally clears everything up.

If I install a game from a CD to my SSD on a computer, I'm limited to CD speeds? That's not how any of this works.

Do USB 2.0 devices become faster when you plug them into a USB 3.0 slot? No. Because the speeds are capped at 2.0...

So if you understand that, why would it work for Bluray?

Because blu ray is the install medium, not the bus the SSD is connected through.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Step 3.

No, its just a installer it never assumed you would play the game through the blu-ray disc to start with.

Step 4:

It will take advantage because the medium is faster and will push data faster. Welcome to PC's.

Do USB 2.0 devices become faster when you plug them into a USB 3.0 slot? No. Because the speeds are capped at 2.0...

So if you understand that, why would it work for Bluray?

 

[Panda1]

i made a VERY explanatory post above with 5 steps to clarify how game disc software works. Please take some time to read and research it. If you still don't agree I don't know what to say, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I invite everyone to take a look at that post, I think it really clarifies WHY I AM MISTAKEN IN everything.

 

[Kenpachii]

i made a VERY explanatory post above with 5 steps to clarify how game disc software works. Please take some time to read and research it. If you still don't agree I don't know what to say, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I invite everyone to take a look at that post, I think it really clarifies everything.

The data was never running through the disc to start with. It was always mend to target itself on the SSD and run on it.

How is this hard? There is no limitation.

 

[Stuart360]

If I install a game from a CD to my SSD on a computer, I'm limited to CD speeds? That's not how any of this works.

Yeah i'm really confused about that 'point'. Thats not how it works as far as i understand it.

 

[Kenpachii]

Do USB 2.0 devices become faster when you plug them into a USB 3.0 slot? No. Because the speeds are capped at 2.0...

So if you understand that, why would it work for Bluray?

Windows gets delivered on a USB. You install windows on your computer. Is windows capped by the speed of USB2.0 where the software came from? no. because the software now runs on a SSD that is far faster.

Do i need to use that USB every time i boot my windows up? no because the USB is trash now as the whole "os" runs on its own on my SSD. the USB was nothing but a throw away installer.

Go install data on a HDD and then copy past it on a SSD and boot that HDD software up on that SSD. boom speed goes up.

Once the data is installed from the disc ( installer ) the software is limited by the medium where it's on.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Yeah i'm really confused about that 'point'. Thats not how it works as far as i understand it.

If I squint and give every benefit of the doubt, games that actually ran off of disks on older consoles were optimized for blu ray/DVD layouts in terms of file size and placement. But OP seems to be assuming they would be the same way in this generation and next when they're installed on internal drives. But even then you would not be capped to the speed of the optical disk, just less optimal then they could be, and that's NOT how it works this gen already anyways, they're optimized for HDDs.

 

[baphomet]

Of course you made this thread and it's all factually incorrect.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

If I install a game from a CD to my SSD on a computer, I'm limited to CD speeds? That's not how any of this works.

No because the software isn't proprietary.

You can't play a PS4 disc on an Xbox One because of proprietary software. That software also downloads with the rest of the game when you put it on the SSD.

I gave very clear step by steps above, please give it a read.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

, and that's NOT how it works this gen already anyways, they're optimized for HDDs.

BINGO! And that was one of my main points, that Blurays were never made for SSD's, they were made for HDD. Modern SSD drives didn't exist in 2006.

 

[LordOfChaos]

No because the software isn't proprietary.

You can't play a PS4 disc on an Xbox One because of proprietary software. That software also downloads with the rest of the game when you put it on the SSD.

I gave very clear step by steps above, please give it a read.

I did and it's wrong.

Come on, developers and console makers aren't stupid, "proprietary" doesn't mean they forgot the part that it's going to be installed to an internal hard drive as mandatory this generation.

Even if it was optimized for the layout of a blu ray, that would not make the data read at that speed off a hard drive, and at any rate they know it's not playing off the blu ray

This is trolling or you're trying very hard not to understand this point.

BINGO! And that was one of my main points, that Blurays were never made for SSD's, they were made for HDD. Modern SSD drives didn't exist in 2006.

1) This generation. This generation does not benefit as much as it should from SSDs for various reasons, mostly due to the IO configuration (SATA over USB in the PS4). NOT because the install media limits the speed once it's installed to an internal drive.
2) Next generation, they'll know it's all SSD...

 

[StreetsofBeige]

There's got to be more than a DRM check for discs that are installed.

I play disc based games sometimes the console does spin the disc with some obvious loading times or fan noise going off. So it's got to be more than a half second DRM check,

 

[Afro Republican]

BINGO! And that was one of my main points, that Blurays were never made for SSD's, they were made for HDD. Modern SSD drives didn't exist in 2006.

[***shaking intensifies***]

Did you forget I already proved that point wrong by showing you a link to a Blu Ray reader that was SATAIII integrated?

 

[Panda1]

Yeah i'm really confused about that 'point'. Thats not how it works as far as i understand it.

Confused ??? just read the VERY explanatory post above with 5 steps to clarify how game disc software works !!

 

[LordOfChaos]

There's got to be more than a DRM check for discs that are installed.

I play disc based games sometimes the console does spin the disc with some obvious loading times or fan noise going off. So it's got to be more than a half second DRM check,

Honestly this is where Microsofts original vision for always online would have prevented that this gen, but the meltdowns changed that plan.

But it's still several orders of magnitude faster to just check the disk a few times than actually capping things to the speed of that drive as OP is saying.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

There's got to be more than a DRM check for discs that are installed.

I play disc based games sometimes the console does spin the disc with some obvious loading times or fan noise going off. So it's got to be more than a half second DRM check,

BOOM, another BINGO.

That's because of the software inside the disc. It's needed to verify that it's running on a PS5 if the speed is too slow.

 

[Negotiator]

What about digital games from the PS/MS store? Are they still I/O bottlenecked by that pesky BD-ROM structure?

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

What about digital games from the PS/MS store? Are they still I/O bottlenecked by that pesky BD-ROM structure?

You joke but no, the store games are made and formatted for Drives and then uploaded to the store. Bluray disc games are optimized and formatted for laser reads or HDD, not SSD.

 

[Kenpachii]

There's got to be more than a DRM check for discs that are installed.

I play disc based games sometimes the console does spin the disc with some obvious loading times or fan noise going off. So it's got to be more than a half second DRM check,

It depends on what they do with the disc. they could easily opt for a mid level installer where they still jank information from the blu-ray to safe space or cut install times on ancient slow as harddrives.

This also happens for digital where download half the file will already make you able to play some content while waiting.

This means nothing for the PS5 as sony has full control over what they do.

Think about how smart it actually is of them to get people that are pro physical hyped about SSD's.

They now no longer will whine about installing on there PS5's and basically adopt a digital future as result far easier because the data will have to be installed.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Honestly this is where Microsofts original vision for always online would have prevented that this gen, but the meltdowns changed that plan.

But it's still several orders of magnitude faster to just check the disk a few times than actually capping things to the speed of that drive as OP is saying.

How would it be faster? We already have slow load speeds because of DRM checks.

 

[LordOfChaos]

You joke but no, the store games are made and formatted for Drives and then uploaded to the store. Bluray disc games are optimized and formatted for laser reads or HDD, not SSD.

And next generation they'll know it's all SSD and install in ways optimal for that.

The blu ray is just the game data...It doesn't limit the layout of the game on an SSD.

 

[Kenpachii]

You joke but no, the store games are made and formatted for Drives and then uploaded to the store. Bluray disc games are optimized and formatted for laser reads or HDD, not SSD.

And now games are made with the PS5 to run on the SSD speeds because the only thing that Disc does is copy raw game information towards the SSD.

Get it now?]

 

[Negotiator]

You joke but no, the store games are made and formatted for Drives and then uploaded to the store. Bluray disc games are optimized and formatted for laser reads or HDD, not SSD.

Please explain why XB1 games have no distinction between retail and digital. It's the same "ISO image".

You buy a retail disc, you install it and then you can also buy it from the MS store if you wanna play it without inserting the disc.

Magic?

 

[Afro Republican]

OP went too far this time and got tagged! Best back down now OP, they may still reverse it! You can still save yourself!

...

He won't do it will he?

 

[Kagero]

Worse post I’ve read in years. Wow!

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

And next generation they'll know it's all SSD and install in ways optimal for that.

The blu ray is just the game data...It doesn't limit the layout of the game on an SSD.

It has nothing to do with layout, I'm talking about the software in the disc.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

OP went too far this time and got tagged! Best back down now OP, they may still reverse it! You can still save yourself!

...

He won't do it will he?

They have to change it back anyway, I didn't give THEM permission to mess with my account.

Please explain why XB1 games have no distinction between retail and digital. It's the same "ISO image".

You buy a retail disc, you install it and then you can also buy it from the MS store if you wanna play it without inserting the disc.

Magic?

The disc has software that knows the disc is in an Xbox. That's different from the store where it's just a digital file. You don't need to format it for a disc.

 

[Kenpachii]

It has nothing to do with layout, I'm talking about the software in the disc.

Which is the same software as the one you download digital but just on a disc. that ends up on the same spot on that SSD. the delivery is just different the data is the same. So there is no limitation.

 

[baphomet]

This is almost as dumb as the TeamCG/TeamReal Kojima thread. And that's one of the dumbest goddamn things I've ever read.

OP lacks basic understanding of how things work. There's no point in arguing because he's convinced he's right.

 

[Negotiator]

It has nothing to do with layout, I'm talking about the software in the disc.

The software is an executable file (*.exe) and some libraries (*.dll) maybe. 100-200MB of executable code at most.

The rest of the disc/ISO image is art assets (textures, video cutscenes, audio files etc.)

 

[SonGoku]

Congratulations GAF!
4 pages of one of the most pointless discussions in this site.

The discussion could not reach its full potential due to the GaF codec limitation.

 

[jshackles]

My grandma had a term for this. She would say that Freedom Gate is "full of piss and vinegar".

 

[LordOfChaos]

It has nothing to do with layout, I'm talking about the software in the disc.

2. You can't tout that you are going to have a "fast SSD Drive" in the PS5 and say loads will take one second if you are still using Bluray. When you install from Bluray you're also running the Bluray data and codecs on the machine, which an SSD drive won't do much to increase the speed of because that format is naturally slow, especially since it checks DRM. Even if you were to add a bit of laser disc read, it would only marginally increase the speed. It's like you having a 20watt phone wanting a 30wat charge from the charger, you can't charge at 30 wats if the phone is capped at 20, the SSD drive is basically useless outside Digital games.

An SSD would be as slow as a blu ray because it was installed from a blu ray [abject falsehood] [1]

A SSD loaded game will be somewhat slower than it could be because of DRM [true] [10]


Could you help me out and tell me where you are on this scale

At first you were saying the SSD wouldn't help much...It'll help by orders of magnitude. They literally showed a game that loaded 20x faster, a real game installed from a blu ray presumably. DRM makes things a bit slower, but on the other hand saying the disk would limit the SSDs speed to the point of it not being much of a benefit is abjectly false.

 

[Freedom Gate Co.]

Which is the same software as the one you download digital but just on a disc. that ends up on the same spot on that SSD. the delivery is just different the data is the same. So there is no limitation.

No because for Bluray you have to format the file to run on the disc, that's additional code that doesn't exist in store files.

 

[Afro Republican]

They have to change it back anyway, I didn't give THEM permission to mess with my account.

And I though the British were stuck up, holy shit.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

BINGO! And that was one of my main points, that Blurays were never made for SSD's, they were made for HDD. Modern SSD drives didn't exist in 2006.

You're wrong. Point 5 can be very easily debunked. When I install a game from disc onto my external SSD on X1X it loads and runs much faster than when the same game, from the same disc, is installed to the internal HDD.
The disc had 0 effect on how fast the game loads and runs. This includes loading assets during gameplay.
This alone melts your entire concept.
/ thread.

 

[Kenpachii]

No because for Bluray you have to format the file to run on the disc, that's additional code that doesn't exist in store files.

They can put 1 file on that disc, and make it copy through PS5 OS software towards the SSD and be done.

Get now what a installer is? which i already mentioned 30 times.

Next argument?

 

[DanielsM]

Tempted to unignore him so I can see the comedy act.... something tells me this is glorious and I'm missing out.