MeatSafeMurderer
Member
Yup, they do...and that's on top of not-insignificant licensing fees too.
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Epic CEO Tim Sweeney Says Only Exclusive Deals Can Combat Steam
- Thread starter Mista
- Start date
lukilladog
Member
..
A crappy digital store?. Look at that, if I didn´t have a problem with exclusives and giving my money to Chinese regime shills I would avoid it just because of the lack of user reviews.
A crappy digital store?. Look at that, if I didn´t have a problem with exclusives and giving my money to Chinese regime shills I would avoid it just because of the lack of user reviews.
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Yes and retail stores need to employ staff, pay rent, license PoS systems etc. but I was referring to the impact of adding a single product to a sales platform and not the costs behind the platform itself.
Exclusives are working though. EGS has more steam (lol) building than GOG, Origins, Uplay or any other PC platform has gained since steam became the go-to. GoG is DRM free. Humble donates to charity. None of them come close to being considered competition though. Is not not also anti-consumer how steam diminishes competition by forbidding devs from having games on steam if the same game has a lower price elsewhere aside from sales?
Yep EGS has bumps like the lack of cloud saves or a cart, but those things are planned to be implemented and they have a publicly available roadmap to see what's planned.
I'm not dismissing everyone who doesn't like EGS, just saying that a lot of what I see is either directed purely at tim sweeney, or people that just don't want to buy outside of steam. There's a reason that EGS threads nowadays (here and on other sites) are slowly turning in favour of epic. It's still a majority against epic, but people are realising that free games, solid sales and increased return for devs is pretty beneficial for everyone.
..
A crappy digital store?. Look at that, if I didn´t have a problem with exclusives and giving my money to Chinese regime shills I would avoid it just because of the lack of user reviews.
In reality outside of cloud saves I'm not bothered by literally any of that, and even cloud saves aren't helpful generally, they're just a backup on the off chance my HDD fails or a save gets corrupted somehow. I press launch and play my games, and I'd wager most people are the same.
Not to mention this chart is widely outdated and incorrect in a number of places in regards to EGS, but memes > reasonable discussion I guess
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
I've seen no evidence that that is even the case. Stores like GMG have stuff at a lower price without sales all the time. Cyberpunk is 9p cheaper on GOG than on Steam. Not a whole lot difference...but not exactly "price parity" either. The only source for that is Tim Sweeney...and even he doesn't seem to know to what extent it's true. Notice how he says "overall price parity on Steam keys". If that is the extent of it I don't think that's at all unreasonable...but again, I don't see any evidence of that and considering how disingenuous he is about the whole exclusives thing I wouldn't be surprised if he were twisting the truth to suit his narrative.
As for vitriol being directed at Sweeney specifically...it's because he makes himself a target by blatently lying about his intentions constantly. The man is a snake. He's not your friend. He's not the dev's friend. I also find this idea that people just don't want to buy outside of Steam laughable. I've not seen anyone who has a problem buying outside of Steam. Wherever possible I buy either directly from the publisher in question (I.E Uplay for Ubisoft, GOG for CDPR, Origin for EA (lol...just kidding, fuck EA)...etc), or in the case of games only on Steam wherever will get me the best deal whilst still supporting the developer...ya know...because in spite of what Tim Sweeney says you can get Steam keys below their listed price elsewhere almost constantly.
Increased return for devs is laughable...the devs aren't getting shit. The publisher is pocketing that money. I also find it hilarious that you would bring up solid sales...now...whilst the Steam Summer Sale is going. You know, one of the two rather large and solid bi-yearly sales Steam has, alongside the slightly smaller spring and autumn sales?
Dontero
Banned
A crappy digital store?. Look at that, if I didn´t have a problem with exclusives and giving my money to Chinese regime shills I would avoid it just because of the lack of user reviews.
I like how people create those lists like they matter.
Blizzard has its own launcher and has even less features than epic store and yet their games go 20mln+ sold coppies.
Sweeney is right. Games matter not features. And it is the only way where you can reasonably carve out good chunk of market.
gifgaf
Member
Maybe class it as full game demo for 1 month then if you like it buy it full price, if not you just saved some cash. $1 for a full game demo sounds very reasonable to me, take every advantage you can imo.
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Domisto
Member
So, benevolent dictatorship it is then. 
Sweeney may be talking PR bullshit half the time but he's not entirely wrong about Steams hold on the market. Personally, I'm bagging the EGS freebies and waiting until the launcher is a bit better. Maybe when they get cloud saves running I'll actually try playing something. I don't think that many people give a crap and the press just like stirring up the outrage.
Anyway ffs people, GOG is the best store. CDPR master race.
Sweeney may be talking PR bullshit half the time but he's not entirely wrong about Steams hold on the market. Personally, I'm bagging the EGS freebies and waiting until the launcher is a bit better. Maybe when they get cloud saves running I'll actually try playing something. I don't think that many people give a crap and the press just like stirring up the outrage.
Anyway ffs people, GOG is the best store. CDPR master race.
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Dontero
Banned
Anyway ffs people, GOG is the best store. CDPR master race.
I wish CDPR had money to play bully.
Whitecrow
Banned
After many many years, I only use Steam as a library, thing that EGS can do too. If it have good games (it will), and doesnt spy my computer in a hardcore way, it will be welcome.
Steam is not what it used to be. It's full of trash games, and full of features I dont need.
EGS serves me as well. And its good to know devs doesnt get the 30% cut like on steam, (that's a shame).
Steam is not what it used to be. It's full of trash games, and full of features I dont need.
EGS serves me as well. And its good to know devs doesnt get the 30% cut like on steam, (that's a shame).
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brian0057
Banned
Blizzard MAKES THE GAMES they sell on THEIR STORE. They're allowed to do that.
What they're not doing is taking games they didn't develop or publish and make them exclusive to their store.
Exclusivity is not competition, it's a byproduct of copyright law since you obviously need to make money with your creations.
At least Sweeney is correct in one area: Those exclusivity deals are made with the sole purpose of making Steam look bad and nothing else. There's absolutely no benefit to the consumer.
Also, that whole "Content matters, not features" BS? Why don't you ask the film industry what happened the last time studios had exclusivity deals with select movie theaters?
Hint: It didn't end well for either.
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Domisto
Member
No matter the money they will always be fighting an uphill struggle against DRM, but despite that they get a surprising number of top games. With that and their investment in the retro scene I think they will remain excellent underdogs. It'd be nice if they could get bigger but it makes for a good curated store.
near
Gold Member
Could do. I'm not opposed to using XGP as 'try it before you buy it' kind of service and play that way until the steam release. But The Outer Worlds is a day 1 for me regardless, so I'm impartial with the EGS debate when it boils down to where and how I'm going to play this game.
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
No...not because it's inherently bad but because Epic isn't trying to compete with Steam in a manner that is good for the marketplace. Exclusivity is a small monopoly on the distribution of specific titles. There are game you can get on Steam. There are games you can get on Epic. The pool of games you can get on either is incredibly small and because of how lacking Epic is there's simply no reason to buy there if you can get it literally anywhere else...not even just on Steam.
Dontero
Banned
Shh be like good communist and believe that one retailer effective monopoly is good.
Any competition which divides marketplace and takes away share from monopolist is good for marketplace.
Epic once it reaches considerable % share also will stop funding exclusives.
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Woo-Fu
Banned
Tim's right, it is the only way his company can compete with Steam. That says a lot more about his company than it does about Steam/Valve, though. After using both for years it is increasingly obvious that Epic is incapable of making a better launcher or a better storefront.
If you can't compete by making a better experience for the consumer, compete by purchasing a monopoly on specific games, right Tim?
After using both for years it is increasingly obvious that Epic is incapable of making a better launcher or a better storefront.If you can't compete by making a better experience for the consumer, compete by purchasing a monopoly on specific games, right Tim?
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What Epic is doing is the equivalent of a huge company like Apple deciding to, let's just say, open a Taco chain.
They have to compete with Taco Bell of course. So Apple, instead of working to make iTaco food actually better than Taco Bell, starts by guaranteeing a lower price - for any iPhone owner. Then they take their vast cash reserves Taco Bell can't match, go directly to beef suppliers and make sweetheart deals contingent on those suppliers no longer doing business with Taco Bell - making it increasingly difficult for Taco Bell to even do business. Eventually iTaco, a worse chain, prevails through sheer brute force.
Sure, it's legal, but boy is it scummy. And there's no benefit to the customer whatsoever. (Even the discount requires you to buy into their ecosystem to take advantage of it.)
They have to compete with Taco Bell of course. So Apple, instead of working to make iTaco food actually better than Taco Bell, starts by guaranteeing a lower price - for any iPhone owner. Then they take their vast cash reserves Taco Bell can't match, go directly to beef suppliers and make sweetheart deals contingent on those suppliers no longer doing business with Taco Bell - making it increasingly difficult for Taco Bell to even do business. Eventually iTaco, a worse chain, prevails through sheer brute force.
Sure, it's legal, but boy is it scummy. And there's no benefit to the customer whatsoever. (Even the discount requires you to buy into their ecosystem to take advantage of it.)
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Dontero
Banned
Here is alternative you miss.
Small taco pops and dads store opens up, they have nice menu they go to beef supplier and beef suplier tells them: Sorry you are not Steam, you are to small so we will release our game on Steam only.
Steam has been swimming in exclusives since its inception precisely because they are too big.
MeatSafeMurderer
Member
No it isn't. Exclusivity is just creating more monopolies...that's not good for the marketplace at all...not that Steam is even a monopoly in the first place. As for Epic supposedly dropping the exclusivity deals in the future...I don't believe a word that comes out of Tim Sweeney's mouth to be perfectly honest. He's a lying corporate snake and the sooner everyone who is defending the anti-consumer practices of Epic realizes that, the better.
I mean I still don't understand the hate towards epic. Its not like they are pushing you to purchase a standalone box that plugs into your pc that would be required to play their games. It is literally just another client, like blizzard, steam, GOG, etc.
They are trying to play catchup. Their strategy is cheaper prices, and exclusive games. It seems like one way to go. I mean with the success of fortnite it would seem that most pc gamers already have the damn client already.
I think this is a non issue. More competition in this space is good in my opinion. If the vocal critics of this strategy speak for the majority and are correct then epic will most likely change its strategy. But I don't think this is the case.
They are trying to play catchup. Their strategy is cheaper prices, and exclusive games. It seems like one way to go. I mean with the success of fortnite it would seem that most pc gamers already have the damn client already.
I think this is a non issue. More competition in this space is good in my opinion. If the vocal critics of this strategy speak for the majority and are correct then epic will most likely change its strategy. But I don't think this is the case.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
If the games are exclusive how do you know the prices are any cheaper, lol? Cheaper than all of the digital and physical copy retailers where what's essentially a Steam key can be sold for vastly varied prices as they compete with each other and with Steam itself when Epic exclusive games are only on Epic and maybe one more Epic-sanctioned seller (humble) unless you're Ubisoft in which you get preferential treatment and can also be on your own launcher as long as you're not on Steam (when Steam treats all the same with the same support and chances whether they're AAA or indies, but I guess rich people can't have that last, they need their benefits)? Not to mention the same game on the likes of gog and other non-Steam versions as exclusivity is neither forced nor bought and they can do whatever they want with their game? Where did you come up with that? Why wouldn't people be miffed about store exclusives? People complained when GAMESTOP was the only place to get this or that edition, this or that DLC or pre-order bonus. Did you wonder why then too, since you didn't need to buy a new GAMESTOP console for it? It's of no benefit to consumers and restricts their behavior. Why would that be praised and why is not liking that labeled as "hate"? Moreover, Steam has its own set of features and services that benefit both game development and the user experience. From the dev side, games like Dangerous Driving on EGS have omitted having simple things like leaderboards which Steam would have offered the maintenance of for free in the past, so the devs would neither have to spend much to include it, nor spend to maintain the servers for it. From the user side they don't have any social space resulting in situations where people got the limited time free offer versions of older games on EGS and then looked for help on the Steam forums. Which you can't do if the game is exclusive and therefor has no Steam forum. And so on. EA and Ubisoft, Activision-Blizzard, etc., have their own launchers and their own games, they can do whatever they want with. None so far have consistently paid other studios specifically to keep games away from Steam and essentially avoid competition with it (again, Epic isn't even funding development of risky new games, they take already funded and just about ready for launch titles and give them some extra money simply so they don't get on Steam), so it's really not the same at all. Nobody complained about Unreal Tournament, Paragon and Fortnite being only on Epic's launcher. It's really not that hard to understand even surface level arguments like this so to see posts like yours even after all this time where you supposedly tried to understand what the deal is, but couldn't and chalked it up to "hate" hand-waving all kinds of arguments against it or arguments refuting the supposed benefits you claim, makes them seem quite disingenuous. Meh, whatever.
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MMaRsu
Banned
Yeah.. Cause Blizzard develop their own exclusive titles. Not snap up third party games they have nothing to do with and out it exclusively on their store because they have zero clue how to win mindshare.
No Blizzard is actually smart.
MMaRsu
Banned
to be fair it feels like talking to a wall with some of these users
MMaRsu
Banned
We already have competition
MMaRsu
Banned
There are no exclusives. And they are not too big. You want to know the reason devs launch on Steam? Because of the userbase that actually buys games is huge. It has nothing to do with exclusivity.
Whitecrow
Banned
It's not like that.
The problem is not that EGS cant provide anything better, at the end that is subjective.
The problem is that even if they could, Steam is still almost like a religion for PC gamers. People just dont like changes.
What Epic is facing is the blind faith, not the launcher features.
Kenpachii
Member
It's just people that grow up with steam and think it's some kind of standard on PC. Steam has never been the standard. PC existed out of countless clients already since forever.
They saw a few gaben meme's and thought it was serious.
Epic is very much early valve yet they didn't experience it so they have no clue.
The hate epic gets here is just lol worthy.
Also team features are a joke.
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cireza
Member
You can't come and challenge a company that has been in the place for so many years, and expect to have results in only a few months. Obtaining consumers faith takes time and dedication. But you don't build towards this faith by simply doing whatever you can to deprive them of stuff they had before, and forcing them to come and use your new system.
You actually do much better by providing what they already have, as well as providing new things that they want (or did not know they wanted). Which means building new features or exclusive content. It would be much more constructive for Epic to start developing its own exclusive games and put them only on their store, for example. This would be perceived in a much more positive way than "Epic trying to force us to use their store".
I would personally not support a company doing this.
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Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
The hate for actual arguments against what they offer (or against those claiming it's a good thing they don't offer this or that) is what's lol worthy. You have no arguments and handwave all criticism as hate. That's absurd. Also, Steam's history of evolution and current state is public, there's no excuse for coming out with a so called competitor while missing out on nearly 20 years of gaming evolution and absolutely no excuse for all the people trying to claim that a service that's a lot like Steam circa early 00s is a good and modern and forward-thinking thing in 2019 when Steam evolved to what it is today exactly because it couldn't have reigned supreme if it didn't match developer and user expectations in the manner it has evolved to do by our own and by publisher and by (indie too, which is what led to the current self publishing deal rather than the need for gabe newell to personally think you have enough fans they wish to buy from you to get you on his service, like it is with EGS as of now) developer feedback. If an Amazon competitor came out without a shopping cart, without user reviews, without everything that makes people use Amazon, they'd be laughed out of existence even if they paid some big products like Nintendo consoles to be exclusive (and no, Steam/Valve don't have Amazon's low points like overworked employees and low wages, which Epic actually does, lol) but Epic is getting super fans like that instead, that's what's lol worthy.
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Whitecrow
Banned
EGS already have what I use on Steam: a digital library. With games.
I dont need more. And I'm sure a lot of people dont either.
I couldnt care less about the per-game forums or friends system. That's a bonus I can perfectly survive without.
Can I buy a game a tie it to my account to download it anytime? Yes? Then great.
If you want support a company that you feel it 'forces' you it's ok, but I do like to support a company that, besides not having that 30% cut to devs, they actually pay studios to put their games on it.
Most benefits goes for dev studios, and thats great.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Gotta say, as someone without a dog in this particular fight, the extreme emotion around this issue makes me think that Steam has gotten way too influential and probably should be taken down a peg or two.
I mean the way people are acting like having to use a different (free) launcher is tantamount to having their games "taken away" is pretty crazy. It shows a cult-like attachment mentality to a service that's unprecedented.
Case in point being the recent controversy over Shenmue3 where people are literally demanding refunds on a game they backed years in the past. I mean, in all fairness I doubt it would have crossed the developers' minds that the choice of launcher would be such a deal-breaker for some people. Surely they'd have been thinking, "hey, they really want to play our game," not "they'll only want to play our game if its on Steam, that's what really matters to our backers".
To be fair, I get that Steam is the better service, but it still seems frankly, batshit crazy to react so strongly. It also makes me chuckle in that I guess even Steam themselves didn't know they were so idolized, because if they did they'd never have embarked on the misbegotten Steam Machines initiative, because it seems to me that to at least some people any gaming PC is a Steam Machine by default, because they won't accept any substitute!
I mean the way people are acting like having to use a different (free) launcher is tantamount to having their games "taken away" is pretty crazy. It shows a cult-like attachment mentality to a service that's unprecedented.
Case in point being the recent controversy over Shenmue3 where people are literally demanding refunds on a game they backed years in the past. I mean, in all fairness I doubt it would have crossed the developers' minds that the choice of launcher would be such a deal-breaker for some people. Surely they'd have been thinking, "hey, they really want to play our game," not "they'll only want to play our game if its on Steam, that's what really matters to our backers".
To be fair, I get that Steam is the better service, but it still seems frankly, batshit crazy to react so strongly. It also makes me chuckle in that I guess even Steam themselves didn't know they were so idolized, because if they did they'd never have embarked on the misbegotten Steam Machines initiative, because it seems to me that to at least some people any gaming PC is a Steam Machine by default, because they won't accept any substitute!
cireza
Member
This is not an easy answer. Do you think that Capcom had huge benefits for the Street Fighter IP by being paid by Sony to release exclusively on PS4 (and PC) ? This kind of agreement can be extremely negative for third party IPs, and these companies live of die from their IPs.
I can perfectly understand that you want to support Epic Game Store. By the way I am not a PC player I don't use either of these stores, but I simply found the conversation interesting in this thread.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
It's batshit crazy to admit even at such a surface level that it's in fact a better service but then go on to say yeah, people shouldn't enjoy the better service so much and avoid using a lesser service because maybe they like having a better service too much which might just be a bad thing overall, somehow, possibly, maybe, who knows. It's just games, I don't have Gabe tell me what to vote in the elections for you to think such influence is too much and should be taken down. How's going for the better service a cult-like attachment on any level? And why should people who paid for a Steam key and get told they won't receive it have to suck it up just because you think they should otherwise they sound like cultists to you? And why do you think this makes Steam above criticism? Steam has evolved to what it is today exactly because of criticism (and feedback), which is why it's absurd for a new service to come along ignoring all that evolution based on the industry's users' (gamers and developers) needs and for people to try to say meh, it's all good, just use them, it's good for you, honestly, just because they bought out a few notable titles here and there.
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MeatSafeMurderer
Member
Nice reductionism. No. It does not boil down to just "having to use a different launcher". The issue most of us have is that they're taking away choice. That wouldn't be a problem if they owned the exclusives...but they don't. The fact is that Epic is not competing with Steam. Buying up exclusives is not competition.
iNvid02
Member
The issue with Shenmue 3 was they were advertised and promised Steam keys. Personally as long as the game is playable and decent then it wouldn't bother me, but I am absolutely fine with people raging and requesting an option for a refund if they so desire, because fuck false and broken promises, we've seen enough of that shit in the industry already.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Umm, because you're buying a game presumably because you want to play that game. The launcher should be of little relevance. Especially as they (the game devs/pubs) have no control over the plans and policies of the launcher provider.
I mean. the main reason EGS is so attractive to publishers is that they take a smaller cut than Steam for effectively the same service. Don't you think that's as compelling a reason to switch as anything you can offer for them to stay?
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
So from admitting it's a better service you go back to the meh, it's just a launcher, you shouldn't care crap. Thanks for telling me what I should care about, even though you have no idea of what I do or don't care about.
No, in the grand scheme of things, it's a small minority of publishers and developers that won the Fortnite money lottery and went to EGS because they got paid extra to and in this capitalist world it's natural that getting money up front is better than selling a product you made and seeing if you can get money from the audience you initially made it to exploit or fail to do so. Of course this won't last because at some point Epic will have already bought all the mindshare (and users, like they tried to buy Shenmue 3 owners and you think it's weird some didn't like being sold like that) they need and look to actually turning a profit rather than leak Fortnite money in an attempt to gain their foothold in the market. It's natural that exclusivity agreements like this are neither for everyone (so no they're not indie or dev friendly, they're friendly to that specific entity that got the deal, whether it's 1 or 20 or 100 it's not the industry as a whole) nor forever. If it was just the fee, the terms, whatever else you now claim is the reason it's used, then they wouldn't need to get in talks with Tim and get paid extra to get on EGS, it would be the natural default choice and exclusivity would be a decision independent to being on EGS, not part of it. Just as games on Steam can choose to be exclusive to it or also be on any number of other services, nothing restricts them, it's their product. Origin, Uplay, GoG, wherever they're accepted (where Steam accepts all and gives them the same tools and chances whether they're a dude in his basement or a multi billion company). Instead we have companies that actually already got paid to have some EGS exclusive, still put out other games on Steam. That should be enough of a hint that's not the heaven you present it as. Maybe you should get informed more about this fight you have no dog in or whatever it was that you said before attempting to discuss it and put others who are clearly more informed about what's going on in this industry down like that as cult-like fanboys who don't know better.
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crumbs
Member
The most tiresome element in these Epic Games thread is immediate turn to insults from pro-Epic folks. Apparently wanting to use the service (that they even admit has more/better features) means you have a "cult-like attachment" to Steam, or that people only use Steam because of 'blind faith".
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Calm down, I'm just saying how it seems to ME. You can think what you want, but I'll continue to hold my opinion until I hear a compelling argument to make me reconsider.
Sorry it seems way disproportionate to me, and the reactions I'm getting here underline that impression in my eyes.
If Steam wants to retain more publishers they will need to offer them equal terms with EGS on revenue splits, because the reality is that Epic isn't going away and they will likely improve their launcher to be more competitive over time.
Personally I couldn't give a crap who "wins" and who "loses" between these two very rich corporations, and I'm going to continue holding my old-school stance that its the game that matters not the launcher. Because the reality is that any fixes and/or improvements to the game(s) are not going to come from the launcher's provider, they are going to happen because the developer/publisher of said title will do it.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
What reactions? Actual arguments against your ill informed talk and insults of people you don't know or understand the motives of? You have nothing to argue with and default to a "meh, it's just what I think, you're raging" out of the blue. But provide no reason for thinking so, or for my arguments to be oh so wrong (and apparently enough reason for you to think different, I'm honored I influence you so much I guess, I could be an Epic fanboy using reverse psychology to enlist more troops to the cause, lol).
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Dontero
Banned
Yeah sure creating monopolies by removing them.
Black is white, red car is green and sky is actually yellow instead of blue.
Yes Steam is monopoly on PC. There isn't any other store out there that has even comparable numbers.
Only thing that compares is stuff like Battle net but this is only for blizz games.
You do realize that if Epic becomes supposed monopoly it won't make any sense to make exclusive deals ? I mean whole point of them is to get people from other platforms to your platform. If there aren't anymore then there is no point in having those.
Ton of Steam fanbois. Steam has been walking meme for deacade at least with grew its fair share of zealots who can't concive idea that you could buy games in other stores and use those other stores. They believe that there should be only one launcher which should have all games and they would rather not play the game than play it on other stores. Ton of digital stores launched already and none of them made any dent in market.
What rage is about is essentially realization that Epic has actual change making dent into market. They fear that soon there will be actual other digital store on PC as big as PC and they will have to pick and choose which launcher to use.
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RedVIper
Banned
Steam has never forced developers to make their games exclusive to them you dufus.