Bullet Club
Member
You gotta wash your medieval ass, if you must.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
What Hygiene Was Like For Medieval Peasants
- Thread starter Bullet Club
- Start date
You gotta wash your medieval ass, if you must.
TacosNSalsa
Member
Makes you wonder...what kind of fetishes they had in ME times? I'm going to assume eating a$$ wasn't as popular back then
synchronicity
Member
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Back then eating ass left you full for the night.
Punished Miku
Gold Member
Modern technology empowered women even more than men. Women were seen as unclean and sinful for quite a while. Tampons didn't exist either.
Punished Miku
Gold Member
In the Middle Ages, the average life span of males born in landholding families in England was 31.3 years and the biggest danger was surviving childhood. Once children reached the age of 10, their life expectancy was 32.2 years, and for those who survived to 25, the remaining life expectancy was 23.3 years
Longevity of popes and artists between the 13th and the 19th century
Longevity has increased steadily through history. Life expectancy at birth was a brief 25 years during the Roman Empire, it reached 33 years by the Middle Ages
academic.oup.com
#Phonepunk#
Banned
we don't realize how good we have it, living in an era post-public sanitation.
average lifespan was short largely due to the difficulties making it to adulthood. without modern medical care, lots of pregnancies ended in stillbirth or death for the baby (and the mother). IMO this is where most of the death occurred, early in life. as long as you avoided disease and accidents, you could live as long as ever. there were plenty of old people around, as can be seen in the literature of the time. the idea that the lifespan was drastically shorter thank today is mostly a myth.
average lifespan was short largely due to the difficulties making it to adulthood. without modern medical care, lots of pregnancies ended in stillbirth or death for the baby (and the mother). IMO this is where most of the death occurred, early in life. as long as you avoided disease and accidents, you could live as long as ever. there were plenty of old people around, as can be seen in the literature of the time. the idea that the lifespan was drastically shorter thank today is mostly a myth.
Last edited:
buizel
Banned
You'd be suprised.
There was a while I was reading books from the 1800's back in college (something hipster phase) and it suprised me that rape was so common, even more so that women oft-yearned to be 'ravished'. SOCIETY.
Soap was made with like Pig liver or some shit so as hygeinic as the inside of a taun taun
chilleverest
Member
I am rather fascinated by medieval era and i was wondering if there is any documentary or movies on that regards. I recently watched black plague documentary on youtube and it was just fascinating. I am open to suggestions.
Punished Miku
Gold Member
I think people in this thread would really love to dive into medical history specifically. That's when it hits the hardest.
It wasn't that long ago that surgeons, as a matter of pride, walked around in between patients with the blood from their previous surgeries on them. Germ theory was not known. The first person to figure out that flooding a surgery room with the equivalent of lysol increased survival rates died from some kind of poison or cancer from exposure to his chemicals. Limbs sawed off in the civil war without anesthetic. Lobotomies and restraints for insane and demented occurred not that long ago.
Look up the history of medicine, plumbing, the justice system. Fascinating stuff lol.
It wasn't that long ago that surgeons, as a matter of pride, walked around in between patients with the blood from their previous surgeries on them. Germ theory was not known. The first person to figure out that flooding a surgery room with the equivalent of lysol increased survival rates died from some kind of poison or cancer from exposure to his chemicals. Limbs sawed off in the civil war without anesthetic. Lobotomies and restraints for insane and demented occurred not that long ago.
Look up the history of medicine, plumbing, the justice system. Fascinating stuff lol.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
i feel like i am totally with you on this! i am very fascinated with medieval history and am super into reading about it. i feel like a lot of modern fantasy comes from it, and that much of real life was even more wild and interesting, and is far more relevant in a lot of ways. IMO the medieval era is a lot closer than we like to think.
I highly recommend this book, The Devil's Doctor, about a Renaissance plague doctor who rebelled against accepted science. medical science was very limited, the doctors in general did not see the patient in person, they primarily studied the fluids (a lot of gazing at urine & theorizing in a safe office far from the patient), rather than the body itself, so yeah germ theory was not known, and a lot of actually harmful approaches were used (treating wounds with melted metals or imbibing mercury).
Paracelsus rejected accepted medical science and took a more hands on approach. Galenic science was centralized whereas his approach was more cosmopolitan, he traveled around learning medicinal & folkloric cures from around Europe, treating patients and occasionally being chased out of towns (he spent a lot of time trying to avoid being thrown into a dungeon). he also of course was super into alchemy, astrology, occult sciences, etc. they talk about the famous plague mask, how it was used to protect the doctor, as well as being packed with fragrances, herbs, & often drugs from the East as well. all tremendously fascinating stuff!
Amazon.com: The Devil's Doctor: Paracelsus and the World of Renaissance Magic and Science: 9780374229795: Ball, Philip: Books
Amazon.com: The Devil's Doctor: Paracelsus and the World of Renaissance Magic and Science: 9780374229795: Ball, Philip: Books
www.amazon.com
Last edited:
King of Foxes
Banned
I often enjoy history, podcasts books etc but i don't think i have ever heard of an account of someone raising a down syndrome or seriously disabled child before. I mean from classical greece to the middle ages i cant recall a single instance.
I wonder if they killed the child or with mortality so high the kid had zero chance.
Would love to be proven wrong with an example
I wonder if they killed the child or with mortality so high the kid had zero chance.
Would love to be proven wrong with an example
Punished Miku
Gold Member
Not sure. But also keep in mind no one had sugar either. The English diet was so unbelievably bland they sailed around the world for spices. Literally. History of food is also fascinating.
WhiskeyDiver
Member
Poop was dinner for the next day. Cant let whats left of that corn go to waste.
haxan7
Volunteered as Tribute
According to the video, they didn’t get much tooth decay because they couldn’t afford refined sugar. If they had to get a tooth removed, a barber actually did it. They brushed their teeth using a twig by itself, or with a paste made of salt and mint or some other herb with antibacterial properties (according to the vid).
This guy has a lot of videos that may interest anyone who is interested in daily medieval life. He’s basically a real medieval knight.
Last edited:
Welp, I'm at 32 now. Time to die old man.In the Middle Ages, the average life span of males born in landholding families in England was 31.3 years and the biggest danger was surviving childhood. Once children reached the age of 10, their life expectancy was 32.2 years, and for those who survived to 25, the remaining life expectancy was 23.3 years
Longevity of popes and artists between the 13th and the 19th century
Longevity has increased steadily through history. Life expectancy at birth was a brief 25 years during the Roman Empire, it reached 33 years by the Middle Ages
E-Cat
Member
We think we have it so good now with our fancy antibacterials and vaccinations, but this is not the apex of all progress. In all likelihood, we missed out on anti-aging technology by like 100-200 years. It still doesn't mean you won't die; but at least you won't age.
People at that time will look back at our primitive age with the same bemused detachment as we look back at the Middle Ages. It will be hard to fathom that having life once meant inhabiting an inevitably decaying body, with all the heinous psychological effects that entails. Ironically, one symptom borne out of the denial of this reality (=religion) is also one of the main reasons why such anti-aging developments will be further delayed.
People at that time will look back at our primitive age with the same bemused detachment as we look back at the Middle Ages. It will be hard to fathom that having life once meant inhabiting an inevitably decaying body, with all the heinous psychological effects that entails. Ironically, one symptom borne out of the denial of this reality (=religion) is also one of the main reasons why such anti-aging developments will be further delayed.
gar3
Member
This is a Juvenile Book but it is dynamite and good reading even if you are an adult (or think you are, heh). I strongly suggest visiting your local library to see if a copy is available:
I had a lot of fun reading this over the course of a couple of days.
Poop Happened!: A History of the World from the Bottom Up: Albee, Sarah, Leighton, Robert: 9780802720771: Amazon.com: Books
Poop Happened!: A History of the World from the Bottom Up [Albee, Sarah, Leighton, Robert] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Poop Happened!: A History of the World from the Bottom Up
www.amazon.com
I had a lot of fun reading this over the course of a couple of days.
Last edited:
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
Was life fun Kevin?
S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
So they had better hygiene than Smash players?
Starlight Lotice
Member
That Striped Sign Barbers have is from the Blood they produced from Dental procedures.
Most Villages in Europe (especially England) were settled on land full of wet mud, which probably made being dirty even worse given shoes were also a luxury item back then.
When Peasants Died, they also brought Disease because they would soil themselves and rot in the ground, causing even more contamination.
The Victorian Times meant that open sewage killed a lot of people due to the outbreak of Cholera on top of infected Oysters (at the time, a poor person's snack). The Great Fire of London effectively stopped the Black Plague as it killed most of the Lice and Rats at the time and forced us to use Bricks and Mortar for houses.
Most Villages in Europe (especially England) were settled on land full of wet mud, which probably made being dirty even worse given shoes were also a luxury item back then.
When Peasants Died, they also brought Disease because they would soil themselves and rot in the ground, causing even more contamination.
The Victorian Times meant that open sewage killed a lot of people due to the outbreak of Cholera on top of infected Oysters (at the time, a poor person's snack). The Great Fire of London effectively stopped the Black Plague as it killed most of the Lice and Rats at the time and forced us to use Bricks and Mortar for houses.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
it's hard not to imagine many mentally ill people were killed for either being possessed by or being themselves demons. medical science was barely able to help the able bodied, no doubt the homeless/mentally ill population were considered a burden and done away with. reason #10,454 why modern life is infinitely better than the past.
the plague killed not just peasants tho, which was the frightening thing. it killed everyone, rich, poor, religious, secular, young, old, etc. if you were a devout priest, it would not save you. if you spent all your money on doctors, they could not save you. it could come at any time, and did for pretty much every generation for hundreds of years. the terror this must have struck into people, the desperation, must have been incredible. if a family member got sick, you would have to choose to cut them off or risk having everyone die. a sick stranger coming to your village could indeed be a sign of certain doom. the plague did a huge number on us.
public water was always contaminated and not through sole fault of the peasants, since the wealthier lords would use water sources to dump their waste, of which they produced much higher quantities. the wealthier people also funded the first corporate expeditions, resource extraction, mines looking for precious metals, etc. which in turn produced pollution and poisoned natural water sources.
water was pretty much unsafe to drink for everyone, it was safer to drank mead or wine. clean water is a necessity, and the lack of it had a huge impact on hygiene and digestive health.
Last edited:
sonomamashine
Member
I didn't read everything here but had to say that if anyone thinks that 1000+ years before there was no hygiene and people where nasty and the average life span is 32 years old, you fucking STUPID (like this one
E-Cat
) , a minority doesn't make it a majority.
E-Cat
) , a minority doesn't make it a majority.
Starlight Lotice
Member
Sorry, I was trying to say that the Corspes of the Poor (the ones who couldn't afford a Coffin and the like), were more likely to kill those in the poorer areas from the more airbourne diseases, before the Plague started to reach the more privileged areas via being airbourne or perhaps from the vermin. It was unbiased like you said.
Yeah, the Richer Lords were also at fault for wastage as well, which contributed to a lot to the more internal diseases such as Cholera.
It was terrible living in Europe at the time.
Around the Victorian Times, they encouraged everyone, including Children to drink Ale/Gin, because it was more safer to drink than water!!!
Last edited:
E-Cat
Member
Eh? Where did I say there was no hygiene or talked about the life span of people in the Middle Ages? The crux of my post was basically that there is progress towards a better quality of life and it doesn't end here, circa 2019.I didn't read everything here but had to say that if anyone thinks that 1000+ years before there was no hygiene and people where nasty and the average life span is 32 years old, you fucking STUPID (like this one
Interestingly aggressive reaction, though.
Last edited:
iconmaster
Banned
There are conflicting sources on this, and I think we can't know for sure; but it may have been as high as 70 for those surviving childhood. But yes, those who repeat the ~30 stat are usually unaware that it averages in infant mortality, which has certainly been reduced since.
Interesting study on medieval cemeteries: https://qz.com/1328742/think-everyone-died-young-in-ancient-societies-think-again/
Last edited:
sonomamashine
Member
It was about the religion reference.
iconmaster
Banned
It's strange that you'd want this life to last forever.
E-Cat
Member
Yet, your post had no substance on the religion part.
I don't, I just don't want to age. Statistically, you're likely get killed in an accident within ~600 years, anyway.
So, what is your ideal age to die? Also, you said "this life", so presumably you believe there's an afterlife?
Last edited:
Constant Flux
Member
I’d rather take my chances continuing to live this life than to hold onto the hope that there’s an afterlife waiting on us. I believe there is one, so don’t take offense to what I’m saying here, but at least what we have now is tangible. This is coming from someone that hates his life too, so yeah. Take that for what it’s worth.
Last edited:
iconmaster
Banned
That's actually an interesting question for me. I often get so down about current affairs or the minor irritations of home maintenance that I reassure myself with the thought, "It's only for two or three more decades." But very recently my dad underwent open-heart surgery and I realized: you don't get to simply keel over and die at the end. You undergo major surgery, experience tremendous pain, and endure a 12-week recovery. It's a slow, painful decline to death. So perhaps you're onto something with the notion of death without aging.
Oh gosh yes, and it's not a hard thing to demonstrate either. I think I'll go visit the afterlife thread for that, though.
E-Cat
Member
Thanks, always happy to expand people's horizons.
Well, I'm intrigued. Arguably, no one who has ever died has come back to life (one could say they weren't really dead in the first place). Do you have any examples to back up your claim?
iconmaster
Banned
Quite a few witnesses to at least one resurrection...
E-Cat
Member
As you can probably guess, I am not impressed by personal revelation or anecdotes - only peer-reviewed scientific studies.
The problem is that there are all kinds of extraordinary claims and stories around the world, with plenty of financial or other incentive to spread them. Presumably, you don't believe in all of them. By which criteria do you decide which ones are legitimate? Do you find that the ones in which you do believe are generally of the type that would support your pre-existing beliefs?
Last edited:
iconmaster
Banned
Probably. Do you?
E-Cat
Member
I don't believe in any claims without evidence. If you are talking about credible, repeatable scientific studies, then I would not really call that "belief".
iconmaster
Banned
Ah, but what evidence would you put forward for accepting scientific studies as evidence? Note that it can't be scientific evidence; that would be assuming what you're trying to prove.
E-Cat
Member
I am curious, do you genuinely consider this a clever argument or a gotcha?
Scientific studies follow the scientific method. Proof that the scientific method works is all around us. It is what enables us to communicate right now. It is why the open-heart surgery on your dad worked.
Last edited:
iconmaster
Banned
It's neither clever nor a gotcha; it's a question that deserves consideration. You're assuming an approach to knowledge that you can't justify without reference to something else. (And it's significant that you'd rather deflect it than face it.)
Those justifications are out there, but they're philosophical rather than scientific, because of course they are. What else could they be?
Technology isn't a justification for science. You can do technology without science. Blacksmiths honed their craft generation by generation, improving on methods along the way. Tech still advances in that way today.
Last edited:
E-Cat
Member
Well, you are right that there are philosophical assumptions or principles behind the scientific method, such as applying skepticism about cognitive assumptions and observations, and weeding out bad hypotheses through experimental testing.
Not sure what you're getting at...
#Phonepunk#
Banned
There is a tendency to primitivize the past and think they were all stupid and dirty and gross people, the myths of medieval life help support that. I like when people call them out.
We are not so far away from that life as we would like to think. This bullshit about "religion is pointless", get over it, people spend their time and money on fantastical stuff, even today, in our current "lower than ever" religious state. How many billions or trillions do superhero movies make (and cost?)? How many millions of people pilgrimmage to fan conventions? How many hundreds of millions follow the mythical chronicales of supernaturally powered people? How many hours a day are spent discussing canon, debating true interpretations of fictional characters?
We are not over religion, it is merely that people have adopted a consumer religion. In the middle ages there was no mass culture, there was no pop culture, everything was folk. The only thing around with that kind of wealth and reach was the Catholic Church, since Medieval Europe was largely the aftermath of the Holy Roman Empire, the Church funding schools, hospitals, and public infrastructure in an era when there was really was none. What do you think the police were like back then? If you were a Lord or a King, you employed a variety of people, including armed guards, to patrol your lands. The rest of us were fucked. The only thing you would see throughout was that Churches all had the images of Jesus and Mary and you etc. etc. know the rest. Like any pop characters, they belonged to a shared universe, with canonical tales, which were told by many different people. You had Robin Hood and King Arthur and stuff, but that was more folkloric open source storytelling.
So the church served a much different function back then as compared to now, or how people even imagine it did. Yes they were involved with wars and torture and all kind of abuses that every other realm of society was involved in. That is because the Church is a human construct, all human systems have these issues. Witch burning was indeed pursued by the Church but it was also a widespread practice long before the Inquisition. In Roman days someone accused of being a sorcerer was likely to be thrown to the dogs, eaten by wild animals, or drawn and quartered, their body publicly displayed as a warning. When the Church came along to codify witch hunting procedures, burning them at the stake was adopted en mass due to it being a "more humane" method of executing women, who were the majority of the condemned. However the abuse of witch trials has equal share of the blame with regional secular laws, and witches were often prosecuted by two different courts, secular and religious. The Salem Witch Trials in America was a largely secular affair, involving a lot of inter-family fueds and power-grabbing behind the scenes of the fantastic spiritual stuff.
That's the thing, you can't get hung up on "Is it scientifically real or not?" because these things exist, they impact life, they made a mark on history. You can choose to remain ignorant of that if you want, but don't expect other people to, just because you don't believe in the Man In the Clouds.
We are not so far away from that life as we would like to think. This bullshit about "religion is pointless", get over it, people spend their time and money on fantastical stuff, even today, in our current "lower than ever" religious state. How many billions or trillions do superhero movies make (and cost?)? How many millions of people pilgrimmage to fan conventions? How many hundreds of millions follow the mythical chronicales of supernaturally powered people? How many hours a day are spent discussing canon, debating true interpretations of fictional characters?
We are not over religion, it is merely that people have adopted a consumer religion. In the middle ages there was no mass culture, there was no pop culture, everything was folk. The only thing around with that kind of wealth and reach was the Catholic Church, since Medieval Europe was largely the aftermath of the Holy Roman Empire, the Church funding schools, hospitals, and public infrastructure in an era when there was really was none. What do you think the police were like back then? If you were a Lord or a King, you employed a variety of people, including armed guards, to patrol your lands. The rest of us were fucked. The only thing you would see throughout was that Churches all had the images of Jesus and Mary and you etc. etc. know the rest. Like any pop characters, they belonged to a shared universe, with canonical tales, which were told by many different people. You had Robin Hood and King Arthur and stuff, but that was more folkloric open source storytelling.
So the church served a much different function back then as compared to now, or how people even imagine it did. Yes they were involved with wars and torture and all kind of abuses that every other realm of society was involved in. That is because the Church is a human construct, all human systems have these issues. Witch burning was indeed pursued by the Church but it was also a widespread practice long before the Inquisition. In Roman days someone accused of being a sorcerer was likely to be thrown to the dogs, eaten by wild animals, or drawn and quartered, their body publicly displayed as a warning. When the Church came along to codify witch hunting procedures, burning them at the stake was adopted en mass due to it being a "more humane" method of executing women, who were the majority of the condemned. However the abuse of witch trials has equal share of the blame with regional secular laws, and witches were often prosecuted by two different courts, secular and religious. The Salem Witch Trials in America was a largely secular affair, involving a lot of inter-family fueds and power-grabbing behind the scenes of the fantastic spiritual stuff.
That's the thing, you can't get hung up on "Is it scientifically real or not?" because these things exist, they impact life, they made a mark on history. You can choose to remain ignorant of that if you want, but don't expect other people to, just because you don't believe in the Man In the Clouds.
Last edited:
iconmaster
Banned
Cool. That was my entire point, that there's something other than science going on in science. That would get into the reliability of our senses and reason, and why we think we can trust those things to accurately represent reality. But on this at least, we're on the same page. Good discussion.
E-Cat
Member
Scientific instruments precisely offer a way to measure things in such a way as to eliminate some of the inherent bias and unreliability of our senses and perceptions. But then, you could ask: "Ah, but what if our perception of reading the LCD screen is skewed, or the instrument itself is faulty?" And then you could use a completely different method to independently verify the exact same result, which in fact is what happens.
Anyway, yeah, a good discussion. Let's end it there.
TacosNSalsa
Member
relevant?
Medieval man's face reconstructed from 600-year-old skull
Researchers found that Skeleton 125 was over the age of 46 years old and shorter than the average medieval man. He was around 5'2" or 5'3".
www.usatoday.com