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The Mad Draklor
Member
Even Microsoft has been guilty of this. IIRC, Major Nelson tweeted 2.4 > 1.8 in reference to the different CPU clock speeds as if that was such a significant development.
It was not.
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Soadi
Member
Well Aaron said that Halo is their big launch title for Series X so don't know about Forza being in there.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
The one detail to me that I honestly think people still haven't fully grasped is the form factor of Xbox Series X and the implications of what that truly means compared to what Xbox Series X would have otherwise been as a console had Microsoft not gone with that design, but instead a more traditional console design.
Why would they do such a thing?
It isn't for show. It's strictly due to power draw reasons and heat reasons. If there won't be a meaningful difference in power or heat required for the type of hardware they intend to put in the box, then there would be no reason at all to even bother with the form factor they did for the Series X.
Translation: the GPU would be weaker, more power limited. The GPU would simply not be allowed to draw the kind of power that it would need to draw to achieve the type of performance it is capable of reaching in games.
I have no idea what the hell the form factor for PS5 will be, nor the type of cooling they'll be using. However, unless they have decided to make similar types of decisions on their console's form factor and cooling design as Microsoft has, or are somehow achieving similar or better results in power consumption and cooling with their own unique solution, the likelihood they will possess a GPU as powerful, or as close as some would prefer them to be, as what's inside Xbox Series X, is really not good.
Xbox Series X Exclusive Details: Meet Microsoft's Next-Gen Console
Microsoft has unveiled the next-gen Xbox formerly known as Project Scarlett, and it's unlike any console we've seen before.www.gamespot.com
Maximum power draw on an xbox one x enhanced title such as Gears of War 4 is 172W compared to 107W on the original Xbox One. In the Digital Foundry article that Phil Spencer himself promoted, as if they hit the nail on the head, suggests Xbox Series X could nearly double the Xbox One X's 172W, if not outright go beyond 300W of power draw while gaming. Again, I go back to Phil's statement about "highest power."
Xbox Series X rewrites the rules of console design - and the power level should be extraordinary
The rules are changing, the nature of console design is radically evolving, the presumptions we have about the core des…www.eurogamer.net
2 times 172W puts us squarely in the power draw territory of the most powerful PC GPUs available on the market. Even at a less aggressive 74% increase in power draw over xbox one X, that still puts us at exactly 300W of power draw. Below Digital Foundry suggests Microsoft is likely achieving this more so with clock speeds that are notably higher than their PC counterparts, but this was before we knew just how much larger the chip was, meaning Microsoft could likely go with roughly the same clock speed as what the equivalent card would have on PC.
GitHub leaks suggests Microsoft's chip is just plain larger than even what DF believed. They were thinking something like 48 at a higher clock speed, but it seems Xbox Series X may be 56CUs at a lower clock.
And on the github leak, if you go back to stories like this from November 1st of last year and you do a little digging into their links to see just who that reddit leaker is tomshardware is suggesting previously found AMD's upcoming Renoir APU, and who again appears to have found new AMD Navi GPUs, you will see that it's rogame, the same exact individual who found and posted the PS5 and Xbox Series X driver leaks.
Game Clock Speeds for Five New AMD Navi 14 GPUs Spotted
The Radeon RX 5500 and RX 5500M may be getting some siblings.www.tomshardware.com
Leaked AMD Renoir APU Benchmarks Point to DDR4 Support
AMD's upcoming Renoir APU may have been benchmarked with 3DMark 11.www.tomshardware.com
This is why I think conspiracy theories that what was listed in those official AMD driver leaks and tests, is some plot or conspiracy by a bunch of zealous xbox fans to make PS5 look weak (it isn't by a longshot even at 9.2TF) is tinfoil hat territory and just plain batshit insane. I don't think believing that github leak, which was clearly real and without full context, makes you a fanboy or someone who hopes for the worst with ps5. PS5 wouldn't be a weak console if those numbers were true and the rumored specs for Xbox Series X are true. Microsoft just had different performance goals. That doesn't make PS5's performance goal insufficient for unbelievable looking next gen titles.
When information looks that solid and everything, including the history and reputation of the person who unearthed it for all to see, is as good as it is, I would instead argue you're simply being a realist if you choose to buy that over what forum insiders have said. And if we're being honest, their track record has been atrocious from the very instant Microsoft revealed Xbox Series X. At the same time, nothing is wrong with hoping it's wrong either. It's just when we get into the conspiracy theories and personal attacks over people who believe it to be real that we basically go off the rails. Every piece of information from the github leak can be all true even while as a gamer your natural instincts are to still wish for even more power to be packed into each console since, the more we get, the better it is for us all whether you prefer xbox or playstation.
You can’t say that the only way the Xbox Series X’s power is possible is if it fits in the same size and shape as what Microsoft designed
The could have chosen a louder cooling solution or exterior power supply.
TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
People don’t seem to have common sense or use logic these days that’s why, if Sony indeed had a 9.2TF console to release last year I think they would have, If series X is 12TF it’s a 30% jump in power for a year later which isn’t so bad. We will just have to wait and see what Sony has been cooking
bitbydeath
Member
Dee Dah Dave
Member
If PS5 is similar power then the box is either similar size and also quiet. Or smaller and louder, simple!
Gediminas
Banned
Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
God ! someone please stop me from making these stupid gifs
now lol .. How the two consoles revealed their name :
now lol .. How the two consoles revealed their name :
Shmunter
Member
Well I hope you’re right, but 3rd parties launching XSX exclusive titles is not so clear cut. For this to happen, MS would need to prepared to create XSX box art and divide the Live storefront. Sounds simple enough, but this does not gel with their messaging and feels out of place if not a Single MS title sits on top of this.
I hate to say it, but I have a bad feeling MS is mandating Xbox as the platform and all games published are required to work on the entire family of consoles including 3rd party. It gives me no pleasure to derive such a conclusion as it will hold back not just Xbox, but all systems.
Hoping to be completely wrong on this.
FrozenFlame
Member
Isn't TLoU2 getting released in May? Or does both those games getting a next gen version?
LED Guy?
Banned
No he said better than RTX 2080, not the 2080 Ti, because a 12 TF RDNA performs better than Nvidia’s RTX 2080, remember, AMD’s RDNA TF is ~ Turing TF, both are almost equal with both being better than the other in certain games by a bit, nothing big.
So a 12 RDNA TF easily beats an 11 TF RTX 2080.
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Soadi
Member
That's what's been rumoured yes.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Speaking of 120 hz here are some thoughts over at Blur Busters on running your console at 120 hz even on games running 30 fps
One important consideration: Input lag
60fps @ 120Hz has much less VSYNC ON input lag than 30fps @ 60Hz on the same display.
Frames refreshed faster onto the screen surface. Instead of a 30fps frame being scanned-out onto the panel in 1/60sec, you now have a 30fps frame scanned-out onto the panel in 1/120sec.
That _really_ makes a big difference.
Also, VRR ranges needs to be huge so that you don't get the VSYNC ON input-lag increase effect at 60 frames per second. You need to run at framerates below VRR maximum, to fully eliminate the backpressure input lag that is common to VSYNC ON or when hitting maximum framerate on a VRR monitor.
As people know from the various GSYNC articles on Blur Busters, we cap a few frames per second below max Hz. We were the world's first to measure the input lag of variable refresh rates back in year 2012 ... (FreeSync is a variable refresh rate tech, similar to GSYNC). So, 60fps would have no VSYNC ON lag due to it never being VRR max. So 60fps FreeSync has much less input lag if the FreeSync monitor is at least approximately ~61Hz or higher (preferably ~65Hz or higher).
So giving consoles 120Hz + VRR is a two-way input-lag fix:
--> Reduction in input lag from faster 120Hz refresh cycles of 30fps or 60fps content; AND
--> Reduction in input lag from no longer hitting VRR maximum.
Just one of the two is a big lag reduction.
Having both is having cake and eating it too.
Low-lag 30fps and low-lag 60fps FTW!
If you enable 60fps FreeSync, you aren't getting lag-saving benefits of capping below FreeSync max Hz.
Instead, Enable FreeSync and enable 120Hz simultaneously.
(Once the 120Hz software upgrade arrives, and you've got a 120Hz+ FreeSync Monitor)
Now you're getting much-lower-lag 60fps because 60fps is no longer the VRR max.
Conclusion:
In addition, with proper variable refresh rate support, the stutters of varying refresh rates can be reduced or eliminated (see TestUFO Simulated animation of FreeSync) so that's a bonus benefit with framerates between 30fps and 60fps. And the bonus framerate swings above 60fps. But you still benefit anyway at 60fps and less.
One important consideration: Input lag
60fps @ 120Hz has much less VSYNC ON input lag than 30fps @ 60Hz on the same display.
Frames refreshed faster onto the screen surface. Instead of a 30fps frame being scanned-out onto the panel in 1/60sec, you now have a 30fps frame scanned-out onto the panel in 1/120sec.
That _really_ makes a big difference.
Also, VRR ranges needs to be huge so that you don't get the VSYNC ON input-lag increase effect at 60 frames per second. You need to run at framerates below VRR maximum, to fully eliminate the backpressure input lag that is common to VSYNC ON or when hitting maximum framerate on a VRR monitor.
As people know from the various GSYNC articles on Blur Busters, we cap a few frames per second below max Hz. We were the world's first to measure the input lag of variable refresh rates back in year 2012 ... (FreeSync is a variable refresh rate tech, similar to GSYNC). So, 60fps would have no VSYNC ON lag due to it never being VRR max. So 60fps FreeSync has much less input lag if the FreeSync monitor is at least approximately ~61Hz or higher (preferably ~65Hz or higher).
So giving consoles 120Hz + VRR is a two-way input-lag fix:
--> Reduction in input lag from faster 120Hz refresh cycles of 30fps or 60fps content; AND
--> Reduction in input lag from no longer hitting VRR maximum.
Just one of the two is a big lag reduction.
Having both is having cake and eating it too.
Low-lag 30fps and low-lag 60fps FTW!
If you enable 60fps FreeSync, you aren't getting lag-saving benefits of capping below FreeSync max Hz.
Instead, Enable FreeSync and enable 120Hz simultaneously.
(Once the 120Hz software upgrade arrives, and you've got a 120Hz+ FreeSync Monitor)
Now you're getting much-lower-lag 60fps because 60fps is no longer the VRR max.
Conclusion:
- 120 Hz is not useless for 30fps and 60fps games
- It reduces input lag of 30fps and 60fps
In addition, with proper variable refresh rate support, the stutters of varying refresh rates can be reduced or eliminated (see TestUFO Simulated animation of FreeSync) so that's a bonus benefit with framerates between 30fps and 60fps. And the bonus framerate swings above 60fps. But you still benefit anyway at 60fps and less.
Captain Hero
The Spoiler Soldier
SenjutsuSage
Banned
No worries, I didn't. I clearly leave open the possibility that Sony could also be going for similar power draw, and as such would be designing their own unique cooling and case form factor around having something more high performance. I only believe that unless they've done so without sticking to the typical design we've come to expect from consoles, the 9.2TF rumored for PS5 could be roughly exactly where Xbox Series X would have been if not for the different approach.
FrozenFlame
Member
Interesting. I wonder if they'll offer a discount for those that have the (digital) PS4 version.
David Ricardo
Member
36 CUs at 2 Ghz draws approximately the same power as 56 CUs at 1.7 Ghz, so if github data was representative of both consoles final specs (I don't think so), PS5 would generate the same heat at 9.2 TFs than Xbox at 12.1.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
It’s no secret they curate some of this in the fan base. No matter the PR sugar coating in interviews.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Does it really? I feel like being lazy, so tell me how does the math work on it or give me a link or something.
schaft0620
Member
This is not launch it's just a list overall. Also there are no substantial rumors for All Stars 2 or SOCOM.
Housemarq's new game.
RE8
Assisians Creed
Watch Dogs Legion
Elder Scrolls 6
Starfield
Sony Japan's launch game
Sony Japan Siren Studio game
Sony Japan Ueda's game
Ready At Dawn's AAA game (The Order 2?)
Madden
NBA 2K
UFC or NBA EA game
God of War 2
GT7
MLB The Show
COD
Bioshock 4
GTA6
Beyond Good and Evil 2
Deathloop
Diablo 4
Overwatch 2
Rocksteady's game
I would assume Control, Doom, Borderlands 3 and whatever Tom Clancy game there is plus EA's mysterious 4 games (NFS, Mass Effect Remastered, Star Wars?)
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
Yeah the original Xbox One was quite a bit bigger than PS4 despite having quite the power gap against it. It also had an external power supply while Sony had internal. Plus PS5 could be taller and deeper and wider than the Pro and still not be a tower design. In fact that would make sense as it would help with cooling and still be able to fit on shelves. Like increase each dimension and improve airflow and make the power supply external and you can probably greatly increase power and lessen noise compared to the pro.
David Ricardo
Member
36 CUs at 2 Ghz are around 160W
36 CUs at 1.7 Ghz are around 105W. Multiply that by (56/36) and you get 163.3W.
Supposing power consumption scales linearly with the amount of CUs, 56CUs at 1.7 Ghz (12.2 TFs) would generate approximately the same heat as 36 CUs at 2 Ghzs (9.2 TFs).
So having less CUs at higher frequency makes no sense.
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bitbydeath
Member
The Socom rumour came from Guerrilla who is known to be working on an MP title hired a bunch of former Socom devs. But it could just be coincidental and they’re making a new Killzone instead.
Rumour: SOCOM U.S. Navy Seals; Called Back To Duty on PlayStation 5 - Daily Gaming Report
SOCOM the classic, veteran third-person shooter maybe getting a reboot and Exclusive Release for the upcoming PlayStation 5 Launch
dailygamingreport.co.uk
schaft0620
Member
The Socom rumour came from Guerrilla who is known to be working on an MP title hired a bunch of former Socom devs. But it could just be coincidental and they’re making a new Killzone instead.
Rumour: SOCOM U.S. Navy Seals; Called Back To Duty on PlayStation 5 - Daily Gaming Report
SOCOM the classic, veteran third-person shooter maybe getting a reboot and Exclusive Release for the upcoming PlayStation 5 Launch
LOL Back To Duty? You believe that? You look at the sources for that?
bitbydeath
Member
Mass Shift
Member
So Ghosts and TLoU2 are definitely PS5 now?
Bogroll
Likes moldy games
Also that leaked dev kit pic , the V one looks quite big to me.
SmokSmog
Member
You are not lazy you just don't know how electronics works. You cant simply raise clocks by 18% and expect max 18% uplift in power consumption.
Navi sweet spot on 7nm is around 1700-1800MHZ.
There will be no 2GHZ PS5 or XBSX.
You would need 1.15-1.2v for safe 2GHZ clock on navi.
Classicrockfan
Banned
Could we be getting watchdogs legion as a launch title or will it just get a patch adding ray tracing,etc?
DiddyInAHellcat
Member
This will be my setup
hemo memo
Gold Member
Definitely? No.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Oh jeez, spare me the garbage on your vast and extensive knowledge of electronics, as if all electronics are the same and behave the way gaming graphics chips do. They all require their own degree of learning and mastery, but moving on.. I've never, not once, actually believed a retail 2GHz PS5 or Xbox Series X is happening. I still don't, but when you go ahead and say such things people want to go ahead and catch their feelings about the implications of you saying so. What are they? Don't care, let's find out.
And ever consider that I know full well that power consumption can and does raise exponentially past a certain area, voltage and clock speed threshold regardless of how much or how little you've risen the clock speed? It is not guaranteed to increase linearly. All things I do know, which is why I obviously didn't bother to waste the time challenging it and instead wished to see him show me where he got the information from that they'd be identical in power consumption. What exactly makes you think that a sustained 2GHz while gaming is "safe" at any voltage for either console launching this holiday? The 5700XT already operates at 1.2v and despite that fact, as well as the silicon having the potential to reach 2GHz + speeds, there are cases where it still wouldn't be able to hit and sustain such speeds in a reliable or consistent manner due to other limitations, likely thermal limitations. And so we are right back to what triggered this discussion in the first place: the thermal limits of these consoles is a lot more important than people realize, and that limit will be a lot more determinative of maximum performance than people think, which is why I stressed the importance of the Series X's design and the implications.
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Jtibh
Banned
ughh.
Another neo.
Another insider.
Another fly by bullshiter with a life expectancy of a fly.
Didnt we have a rule that no more neos are allowed to give any type of insider info and such?
Jtibh
Banned
Yo man a lot of us here are multilingual and a lot of people here are strugling with english but they all do their best and try.
Show some respect.
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SenjutsuSage
Banned
12.9 to be exact, but yea, more or less a 13TF GPU if Microsoft manages 1.8GHz.
BGs
Industry Professional
It can't be, I've written the message twice with the translator and twice it has been accidentally deleted. I will summarize a lot.
Sorry, I have not quite understood what BS means.
When I say it is irrelevant I mean in this specific case. Obviously TFs are important.
But when you have a TV 8k 50" everything looks very clear. Wonderful. But if two TVs of 50" of 16k and 17k appear, the difference between their resolutions will become irrelevant and their respective image filters will be more important.
Your eye will not notice the difference between 16k and 17k. If they were 16k and 32k with the appropriate panel it is possible that you noticed the difference. But is not the case.
That is why I say that the differences in this case will be given by other characteristics. Like hardware and software (by type of project, developer and budget).
Logically I also understand that the owner of a 17k TV will always boast that it is sharper than that of 16k, but in practice it will hardly matter.
I do not know if I explained well. That's why I say that the war will be marketing.
PS. I hope that no TV lover has been offended by my rude example. I know that not everything is so simple like a resolution, but it was simply to exemplify a situation.
Cheers (I hope the translation is good because the original has been deleted again
)
Agnostic2020
Member
So which one is 16ktv and which one is the 17k tv ?It can't be, I've written the message twice with the translator and twice it has been accidentally deleted. I will summarize a lot.
Sorry, I have not quite understood what BS means.
When I say it is irrelevant I mean in this specific case. Obviously TFs are important.
But when you have a TV 8k 50" everything looks very clear. Wonderful. But if two TVs of 50" of 16k and 17k appear, the difference between their resolutions will become irrelevant and their respective image filters will be more important.
Your eye will not notice the difference between 16k and 17k. If they were 16k and 32k with the appropriate panel it is possible that you noticed the difference. But is not the case.
That is why I say that the differences in this case will be given by other characteristics. Like hardware and software (by type of project, developer and budget).
Logically I also understand that the owner of a 17k TV will always boast that it is sharper than that of 16k, but in practice it will hardly matter.
I do not know if I explained well. That's why I say that the war will be marketing.
PS. I hope that no TV lover has been offended by my rude example. I know that not everything is so simple like a resolution, but it was simply to exemplify a situation.
Cheers (I hope the translation is good because the original has been deleted again
Haha my question is the perfect example on how to miss the point and ask dumb questions
Mass Shift
Member
Okay
Rim
Member
Forgot the /s
I was just pointing out how some of this so called "insiders" are full of it.
it_wasn't_me
Banned
Oh yes, you care. You surely want PS5 to be stronger than XSX? You really want that? Stop pretending, really.
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BGs
Industry Professional
So which one is 16ktv and which one is the 17k tv ?
Haha my question is the perfect example on how to miss the point and ask dumb questions
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
You are not seing anything at GDC. It's a closed event where developers pay up to $2.000 to participate. Nobody will show off PS5 or XSX there before they have revealed them publicly. IIRC not even PS4 was shown at GDC 2013 when Sony had announced pretty much everything a month earlier except for console design. GDC uses PCs with target specs for presentations for next gen stuff.
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