splattered
Member
But Sony was just straight up greedy with their proprietary cards, Microsoft doesn't have to be.
History is not exactly repeating itself here...
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But Sony was just straight up greedy with their proprietary cards, Microsoft doesn't have to be.
History is not exactly repeating itself here...
CJY
Banned
Yeah, he is very careful with his words. It's just those particular stood out to me at the time. Then other words nearly put me sleep at the time.
ethomaz
Banned
Nope imo.
What you can't archive with RTX 2080TI + RT on PC won't happen with AMD RT solution.
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thurnishaleygw
Member
This is basically the way the japanese market treats Xbox:
To be fair, though, home console has been on a constant decline in recent years. Japan is more than ever Nintendo territory.
splattered
Member
Wanna laugh? The PS5 is comparable here to RTX2080 (10.1 TF) and the XSX is comparable to 2080 Super (11.9 TF), and for a bigger stretch, 2080ti (13.4 TF)
All running same settings:
If it's that small, then SSD can push that even further and equal or might as well surpass XSX because of not needing to overload CPU/GPU/RAM as its minimal compressed speed goes from 8-9GB/s up to 22GB/s!!!
FIN
EDIT: Seems like a good #1000 post
You keep posting this but if the PS5 can't hit theoretical top speeds and the system performs closer to 9.2tf then that would make it more a 2070 card which is not in this video.
Go and find a 2070 vs 2080ti video and post it (I'm expecting performance to also be fairly close)
Here is one of the first ones to pop up on YouTube, there are countless others
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DiddyInAHellcat
Member
I'm just saying the hardware is not what makes the average consumer or the mom and dad buying systems for their kids
it's the games hands
. I'm 35 years old and if I asked anyone I kn ow about a damn TF they wouldn't know what the hell I'm taking about. Side note : I enjoyed playing Forza 7
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SonGoku
Member
TRUE but games designed from the ground up around next gen hardware will look much better than bf/metro on max settings not to mention the worlds and gameplay being much more advanced.
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Shmunter
Member
When GPU runs at 2.23gig the cpu gets throttled back. All of this is under the same power load, you add some here, and take it away over there and the total is a balance.
And what creates heat? Electricity -so if the electricity is constant, the overall apu stays the same temperature, there’s no extra electricity making it hotter. You can clock it this high all day and nigh, because the other component clocks down to balance the heat equation.
They could have locked the clocks and call it a day, but instead they give the game the option of using more here, less there, or vice versa depending on what it needs. Smart.
CJY
Banned
Highly doubtful unless RT is limited to just shadows or just reflections. Basically, used selectively.
Full Ray Tracing in a AAA on next gen consoles is a fantasy IMO and may stay that way for another two gens.
The most impressive RT will be with older games or more basic games, like Minecraft and Quake 2. That's just my view on things, don't take it as gospel.
Reindeer
Member
SMH, nobody said they won next gen. This is a tech related thread that discusses console specs, not sure what you're doing here if it bothers you when people mention superior specs.
PaintTinJr
Member
But in reality, at 10.07TF unboosted(2% off for 10% power) the workload is closer to maximum utilisation of the CUs, so 10.3TF is higher engineering figure if a Flop not flopping is what you want to measure
, but is less real-world work done by maybe as much as 2-3 TF than the optimum throughput (which might be 9ishTF) when unboosted.Unless Cerny is lying about CU count and workloads – which he isn’t, I'm pretty sure his credentials are beyond that - It is going to be much worse than that on average for the XsX, real-world performance will either be 90% of the technical figure as an optimum workload(like PS%), but lack the smaller triangle count particle fx workloads and look half-gen, or will render more interesting workloads and really struggle to keep the 52CUs filled, resulting in real-world Flops probably being 3-5TF lower with 9ish TF being best case scenario because of the lower GPU clock exacerbating the cost of underutilised CUs.
Shmunter
Member
There is no ‘theoretic top speed’.
Insane the misunderstandings, but I can see why - new ideas poorly messaged.
VFXVeteran
Banned
That's been talked about on DF I believe. We expect around the 2080 level. Won't really know for sure until the consoles are compared with a multiplatform game.
CJY
Banned
You work at DF?
SonGoku
Member
You keep posting this, when its been proven wrong already.
I see a few people claiming that the Series X is simpler to work on because of fixed clock.
Maybe i understood what Cerny said about the variable clock the wrong way, but i understood it as something that happened purely inside the console as you would play the game. not for the devs to work on extensively to find the right combination of clocks for everything they want to do.
The max power needed is known, when the game is less dependant on the CPU, it slows down, same for the GPU, therefore they are feeding less heat to eachother. This put less strain on both the component overall, as running everything at locked clock even when not needed, maybe.
I understood it as a part of the reason they can push the GPU's clock so far, because when they do the CPU is generating less heat.
It is about pushing each component to it's max in an APU configuration.
2.23Ghz might be the thermal limit where they can't reach the max for the GPU and the CPU, so it's locked there.
Maybe i understood what Cerny said about the variable clock the wrong way, but i understood it as something that happened purely inside the console as you would play the game. not for the devs to work on extensively to find the right combination of clocks for everything they want to do.
The max power needed is known, when the game is less dependant on the CPU, it slows down, same for the GPU, therefore they are feeding less heat to eachother. This put less strain on both the component overall, as running everything at locked clock even when not needed, maybe.
I understood it as a part of the reason they can push the GPU's clock so far, because when they do the CPU is generating less heat.
It is about pushing each component to it's max in an APU configuration.
2.23Ghz might be the thermal limit where they can't reach the max for the GPU and the CPU, so it's locked there.
VFXVeteran
Banned
Reindeer
Member
DF discussed Series X GPU, I was asking you about PS5 GPU.
CJY
Banned
Ok, just thought I'd ask cos you used the word "we"
Rusco Da Vino
Member
Here is my thought:
Why Microsoft is not claiming that the XSX is the most powerfull console in the market?
Are they afraid that Sony start marketing the PS5 as the most fast/smart console in the market?
Is Fast/Smart > Powerfull?
Think about that
Why Microsoft is not claiming that the XSX is the most powerfull console in the market?
Are they afraid that Sony start marketing the PS5 as the most fast/smart console in the market?
Is Fast/Smart > Powerfull?
Think about that
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AudioSlave92210
Member
So vrs for the PS5 or not?
And raytracing comparison between the 2 consoles is gonna be intersting.
And raytracing comparison between the 2 consoles is gonna be intersting.
VFXVeteran
Banned
I don't know tbh. Let's just wait and see. So many comments about people trying to imagine what 9.2TFLOPS - 10.2TFLOPS vs. 12TFLOPS will mean. We have a LONG way before that's going to be concrete. I'd rather not waste time imaging scenarios.
CJY
Banned
I'm pretty sure MS do use the words "most powerful" in their marketing. I think it's indisputable that they are power leaders, whilst at the same time probably being more expensive, more power hungry and more inefficient, but definitely most powerful.Here is my reflexion:
Why Microsoft is not claiming that the XSX is the most powerfull console in the market?
Are they afraid that Sony start marketing the PS5 as the most fast/smart console in the market?
Is Fast/Smart > Powerfull?
Think about that
There is a certain segment of the population who will buy something or attach themselves to certain brands simply because it's the most powerful. Nvidia is the most perfect example of this, but not everyone buys the highest end card, so they aren't necessarily the most powerful, but it's easy for some. Luckily the console market is not like dGPU market and historically people don't buy a console solely based on power.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
2070 is a 7.5 TF card, drops from max are within 1-2% max. So, how about some better math?
Ok no problem, let's do a 7.5 TF comparison to 2080 super, just in case
Ok, only found 2070 Super which is 9 TF and even the 5700XT and a bunch, just make sure to see them all when it's showing 4K ultra. But I'm glad with your response that you expect even close results with that margin:
How are feeling my Xbox brothers? FUD? It's a traditions, PlayStaions always dominates. It's not too late.
ethomaz
Banned
If you mean the APU features VRS then yes.
But if Sony will implement it in their API it is to be announced yet.
kareemna
Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Oh there's no doubt PS5 is the stronger of the two brands; that is something MS has an uphill battle against. And I doubt the vast majority of PS players care or will care about a 2 TF differential.
However there's something worth mentioning here in terms of technical advantages and disadvantages. I think the PS5's SSD is being undervalued in terms of what it can really do (for example NX Gamer's latest video suggests most of the OS operation could potentially be compressed and stored on the SSD when games need more of the RAM, which could free up perhaps 15.5 GB of RAM for game data!), but I think people who see the extra 2 TF or so performance of XSX as "simple resolution bump" aren't seeing the whole picture on that front, either.
These are systems using GPGPU architectures; that's general-purpose GPU. That means, thanks to their unified memory and APU architectures, games can target the GPUs for things OTHER than simply better resolution or other graphics-orientated tasks. It means they can use their CUs for tasks related to physics, game logic, AI, audio, and other such things. And that's an area where XSX has an advantage at least comparable to PS5's advantage in the SSD department.
The main reason for that is because XSX has 16 additional CUs. That's additional always-present, always-fixed physical hardware on the GPU silicon. That means, at the very least, XSX can match graphical fidelity of PS5 games but push for better physics calculations, AI routines, logic code, and other non-graphics features as general-purpose compute targeted for parallelism on the extra CU cores. And the best part is, many of these things are very scalable with today's engines and tools, with a growing number that target parallelism-optimized workloads.
*Quick aside: I'd like to also mention we saw this utilized in PS4 games this gen as well, even among certain 3rd-party games. Sony even stressed GPGPU capabilities with the PS4 during the reveal phase IIRC, or at least they should've*
It DOES mean devs have more work to make full use of those features versus the relatively "free" boosts they can get on PS5 thanks to its GPU's faster clock, but there are aspects to this PS5's more narrow & fast approach simply cannot compensate for. In order to do so, it would have to drop graphical calculations downward in order to make way for more unique non-graphics GPGPU calculations in parallel on the GPU, or it will have to load the CPU with those calculations, which could affect things like framerate more severely.
Honestly these systems are more divergent in their approaches than I think anybody would've guessed beforehand, especially considering they're still using much of the same technologies, but it's the implementations that have been surprisingly refreshing. I think both systems are going to deliver some amazing looking and playing games, with the 1st-party games playing to each one's given strengths. It's like the old SNES/MegaDrive or PS1/Saturn/N64 days all over again in some aspects and I couldn't be more excited on that note.
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splattered
Member
Proven?
You can't just say "Because Mark Cerny said so"
The fact that it even boosts to unheard of and typically unsafe levels of heat and performance should tell you that there is smoke and mirrors going on here.
AMD Smartshift provides ~10% increase in performance but it's playing with fire intended for the Laptop market.
10.28TF - 10% = 9.252TF
VanSiriusGabriel
Member
You work with this shit and hold your opinion with humility.
Others build PCs on Amazon at bests and speak like Cerny.
All of this is amazing.
Reindeer
Member
2070 is a 7.5 TF card, drops from max are within 1-2% max. So, how about some better math?
Ok no problem, let's do a 7.5 TF comparison to 2080 super, just in case
Ok, only found 2070 Super which is 9 TF and even the 5700XT and a bunch, just make sure to see them all when it's showing 4K ultra. But I'm glad with your response that you expect even close results with that margin:
How are feeling my Xbox brothers? FUD? It's a traditions, PlayStaions always dominates. It's not too late.
Lol, you trying to convince yourself or others with all these posts? Doing all kinds of weird calculations and predictions
.AudioSlave92210
Member
Mark Cerny didn’t talk about it.
It’s a very nice feature and it will increase the gap between them if the PS5 don’t have it.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Lol, you trying to convince yourself or others with all these posts? Doing all kinds of weird calculations and predictions
Rusco Da Vino
Member
So, one thing that I don't get about ps5 ssd. I get that it's fast. Superfast. So fast that developers can change at least level design - remove all those mountains of losblockers etc. But. Multiplat will be oriented to work fine on the weakest ssd, if not the laptop hdd with 5400 rpm. And that leaves us with first-party games for ps5, fully utilizing it's ssd capabilities. And it's around 30 games for ps5 lifecycle. And I don't think that tradeoff in gpu power for ssd is worth it. And if I'm mistaken please feel free to correct me, but I don't understand the benefits of superfast ssd instead of cpu and gpu power. And I'm not sure that ps5 cpu and gpu will be able to process this data and deliver the generation leap in image quality at the same time. And I want the next gen to leave 30fps console games behind. I don't want another generation of 30fps games. And my biggest fear right now is that it won't happen for ps5.
SonGoku
Member
Im still wrapping my head around this, there are so many variables
- PS5 has less CUs but they are clocked higher
- 36CUs will have less idle resources, easier to use all 36CUs in parallel than 52CUs
- Other GPUs components running at higher frequency
- Does dropping resolution free up CU resources?
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VanSiriusGabriel
Member
With your reasoning PS4 should had 60 fps as a standard while One 30 fps. Surprise: both sucked.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
No, the funny thing is the system does that, no extra work from developers, they only test but that technique is integrated in the system = less time developing. And with the capped power consumption you'll get the EXACT results wither you play in the desert or inside a fridge (not XSX fridge) as Cerny said. I would advice who's interested to dive again in his lecture, or watch DF or other simplified options.
Reindeer
Member
Agreed, beyond resolution there shouldn't be much difference. We'll probably hit another #ResolutionGate with Series X aiming for true 4K or close to it while PS5 will use various other techniques to hit (fake) 4K.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Reindeer
Member
I was responding to comment about Series X being compared to 2080 or 2080 Super while no such comparison was made for PS5 GPU by DF.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yeah, didn't sleep for 2 days so I feel energetic.
thurnishaleygw
Member
Around E3 time would be a good guess. Developers are still going to do some digital presentations, so is a fairly good bet.
Neo Blaster
Member
Has this already been posted? Update on PS5 BC.
UPDATE: A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4’s catalog, we’ve devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5.
We’re expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions. We’re currently evaluating games on a title-by-title basis to spot any issues that need adjustment from the original software developers.
In his presentation, Mark Cerny provided a snapshot into the Top 100 most-played PS4 titles, demonstrating how well our backward compatibility efforts are going. We have already tested hundreds of titles and are preparing to test thousands more as we move toward launch. We will provide updates on backward compatibility, along with much more PS5 news, in the months ahead. Stay tuned!
UPDATE: A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4’s catalog, we’ve devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5.
We’re expecting backward compatible titles will run at a boosted frequency on PS5 so that they can benefit from higher or more stable frame rates and potentially higher resolutions. We’re currently evaluating games on a title-by-title basis to spot any issues that need adjustment from the original software developers.
In his presentation, Mark Cerny provided a snapshot into the Top 100 most-played PS4 titles, demonstrating how well our backward compatibility efforts are going. We have already tested hundreds of titles and are preparing to test thousands more as we move toward launch. We will provide updates on backward compatibility, along with much more PS5 news, in the months ahead. Stay tuned!
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Kusarigama
Member
Unveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]
Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
blog.us.playstation.com
Update regarding PS4 backwards compatibility on PS5
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Zelda looks much better than Metro imo but that doesn't mean it's technically better. We simply can't rely on artistic visuals to be the factor in determining whether a console has the better graphics tech. It's been a weapon of choice for "winning" an argument by some gamers for a long time. What I'm excited about this coming generation is that exclusives won't be just for the PS5/XSX. Some will be coming out for the PC. In that regard, I'm excited to see what the studios develop with a mindset that they can make assets and 3D features that go beyond what the PS5/XSX can do at interactive rates.
SonGoku
Member
Uhm? yes. If we are going down this road why not question CU count, CPU cores, SSD speed etc.
He is the lead PS5 designer, knows the ins and outs of the system, if he says it stays at 10.27TF or close to it most of the time then i believe him. He has a pretty solid track record, no reason to doubt him
You can't compare apples to oranges, PS5 boost system and power delivery is different than any pc or laptop. Also a 10% decrease in power translates to a 2% frequency reduction
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Unveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]
Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
Update regarding PS4 backwards compatibility on PS5
I don't a give a damn about BC but some people like it, so good news.
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splattered
Member
Unveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]
Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
Update regarding PS4 backwards compatibility on PS5
Awesome news! This literally means I will buy a PS5 day one vs waiting for it to be cheaper later on down the road.
But then again there is a massive wave of fans on twitter and other places still spewing "But who cares about BC???" so why did Sony bother to update their blog? Hmmm
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