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The BC team is working on series x. They will pick up work on 360 games after launch. They are dirt cheap gamepass additions especially for xbox one they are supporting for a couple of years.
Audiophile
Member
I don't think people are aware of quite how effective proper 3D/binaural audio is and unfortunately conveying it to people without them trying it is akin to VR.
Before I put on a VR headset my assumption was it's just going to be like a big screen wrapped around in front of me, in 3D and it would simply be "more immersive". Even with all the hype and explanations out there, I wasn't prepared for "presence". When a character gets up in your face you really feel them stood there. I thought I'd still be looking into the world, not literally placed within it. This is the exact same thing that can be achieved for audio.
Building a convincing virtual soundscape is a vast technological undertaking in itself, but it's just the beginning. You have to convey it to the individual and this appears to be the first solution that not just covers every link in the chain but goes balls to the wall with it, providing the means to do it properly.
You've got the soundscape itself and the audio properties of the assets, you've got the convolution and bouncing of the audio itself, you have a hundred or so of those objects all emitting their own audio within that space and they're all dynamic, mobile and being updated hundreds of times a second... think bullets whizzing through the air, planes flying overhead, raindrops hitting the floor, team mates calling out to you, wind blowing through the trees. You then probe sound from the player's location and have to run it through a transfer function that mimics the acoustic properties a human head and most importantly the structure of the inner ear and how sound bounces throughout it, the more personalised it is, the better.
It's not just stereo but wider, it's not virtual surround, it's not more fidelity in itself.. Your brain should be able to pinpoint the location of everything around you, not just forwards/backwards, left/right but also height. Not just a case of direction but how far away too. This has functional gameplay implications too. Competitive online games will be great.
3D audio has appeared many times over many years often with a lot of trickery, but never with such an expansive amount of potentially dynamic audio sources; and with a pure path from those sources to the ear.
I've been privileged to have a sound engineer create a personalised HRTF profile back in 2016 by using probe mics in my ears and creating impulse responses of my head/ears. The audio I got to listen to was recorded in New York on the usual neumann dummy head with in-ear mics before having additional algorithms applied to it. I listened back on some in-ear monitors worth about £40 and it was the most convincing audio I've ever heard in my life. The striking nature of it made me feel like I was more there than I actually would be if I was really there. "More human than human?"...."More there than there!".
If this can be achieved in a virtual world where imagination as opposed to reality is the driving force, then that's something truly special. And Cerny said all the right things to make me think it can be done. Even cooler is that they at least want virtualise this to make the best of less optimal sound devices such as TVs and Soundbars.
From what we've heard so far MS/NinjaTheory have simply said XSX has "3d audio" whereas Cerny has detailed a promising and highly custom solution in hardware, software and potential approaches to custom HRTF. If it turns out that Sony does indeed have the stronger solution then that is honestly more important to me -- and I think in terms of moving the industry forward -- than ~1980p vs ~2160p for eg.
However, I don't mean to be fanboyish, I'm just stating whats important to me and how awesome this could be. If XSX comes up with something similar, that's great, the more standardised this is and the more people who at least get a chance to try it, the better.
Even 24yrs later, the best quick and dirty example of binaural audio out there is probably the famous qsound virtual barbershop, by comparison the soundscape is constrained and the fidelity relatively poor. And without a tailored HRTF profile it lacks that real sense of locality, decent earphones are also more effective on it than headphones, it does not work with speakers. It's still super cool though and a great little taster, though I'm sure half this forum have heard it by now:
Before I put on a VR headset my assumption was it's just going to be like a big screen wrapped around in front of me, in 3D and it would simply be "more immersive". Even with all the hype and explanations out there, I wasn't prepared for "presence". When a character gets up in your face you really feel them stood there. I thought I'd still be looking into the world, not literally placed within it. This is the exact same thing that can be achieved for audio.
Building a convincing virtual soundscape is a vast technological undertaking in itself, but it's just the beginning. You have to convey it to the individual and this appears to be the first solution that not just covers every link in the chain but goes balls to the wall with it, providing the means to do it properly.
You've got the soundscape itself and the audio properties of the assets, you've got the convolution and bouncing of the audio itself, you have a hundred or so of those objects all emitting their own audio within that space and they're all dynamic, mobile and being updated hundreds of times a second... think bullets whizzing through the air, planes flying overhead, raindrops hitting the floor, team mates calling out to you, wind blowing through the trees. You then probe sound from the player's location and have to run it through a transfer function that mimics the acoustic properties a human head and most importantly the structure of the inner ear and how sound bounces throughout it, the more personalised it is, the better.
It's not just stereo but wider, it's not virtual surround, it's not more fidelity in itself.. Your brain should be able to pinpoint the location of everything around you, not just forwards/backwards, left/right but also height. Not just a case of direction but how far away too. This has functional gameplay implications too. Competitive online games will be great.
3D audio has appeared many times over many years often with a lot of trickery, but never with such an expansive amount of potentially dynamic audio sources; and with a pure path from those sources to the ear.
I've been privileged to have a sound engineer create a personalised HRTF profile back in 2016 by using probe mics in my ears and creating impulse responses of my head/ears. The audio I got to listen to was recorded in New York on the usual neumann dummy head with in-ear mics before having additional algorithms applied to it. I listened back on some in-ear monitors worth about £40 and it was the most convincing audio I've ever heard in my life. The striking nature of it made me feel like I was more there than I actually would be if I was really there. "More human than human?"...."More there than there!".
If this can be achieved in a virtual world where imagination as opposed to reality is the driving force, then that's something truly special. And Cerny said all the right things to make me think it can be done. Even cooler is that they at least want virtualise this to make the best of less optimal sound devices such as TVs and Soundbars.
From what we've heard so far MS/NinjaTheory have simply said XSX has "3d audio" whereas Cerny has detailed a promising and highly custom solution in hardware, software and potential approaches to custom HRTF. If it turns out that Sony does indeed have the stronger solution then that is honestly more important to me -- and I think in terms of moving the industry forward -- than ~1980p vs ~2160p for eg.
However, I don't mean to be fanboyish, I'm just stating whats important to me and how awesome this could be. If XSX comes up with something similar, that's great, the more standardised this is and the more people who at least get a chance to try it, the better.
Even 24yrs later, the best quick and dirty example of binaural audio out there is probably the famous qsound virtual barbershop, by comparison the soundscape is constrained and the fidelity relatively poor. And without a tailored HRTF profile it lacks that real sense of locality, decent earphones are also more effective on it than headphones, it does not work with speakers. It's still super cool though and a great little taster, though I'm sure half this forum have heard it by now:
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Insane Metal
Member
Mr Moose
Member
Is that the thing where it keeps some games suspended and you can switch between them? If so, I think they said it was up to 4, and I believe MS said up to 5.With regards to PS5 does it have quick resume like XSX, and do we know how much RAM is available for developers?
Andodalf
Banned
"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."
At some point you can't just keep baiting people along with the carrot, you have to deliver. All visible signs point to a clear advantage for XSX. PS5 SSD will enable cool stuff, but the XSX SSD will too. Both are a dynamic shift. TF will still have the biggest impact on the all important multi plat comparison Videos. Just trusting these "Devs" has constantly mislead people. Perhaps what Devs want isn't what gamers want. Maybe they think it's a bit easier to code for. Or maybe they like the CU number staying the same. Or they're an Audio Guy who likes getting more attention. The fact of the matter is "Dev dev dev dev" is a poor argument that can be made even when patently wrong, and will probably be made till after the consoles are out even when all is known.
What Insiders?
At some point you can't just keep baiting people along with the carrot, you have to deliver. All visible signs point to a clear advantage for XSX. PS5 SSD will enable cool stuff, but the XSX SSD will too. Both are a dynamic shift. TF will still have the biggest impact on the all important multi plat comparison Videos. Just trusting these "Devs" has constantly mislead people. Perhaps what Devs want isn't what gamers want. Maybe they think it's a bit easier to code for. Or maybe they like the CU number staying the same. Or they're an Audio Guy who likes getting more attention. The fact of the matter is "Dev dev dev dev" is a poor argument that can be made even when patently wrong, and will probably be made till after the consoles are out even when all is known.
What Insiders?
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Reindeer
Member
Jason Shrier is one example that said that devs told him both consoles are similar or equal when it comes to GPU. Then there's one example on this forum in Osiris that was fed BS info by multiple devs.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
flute leak was real and showed 530gbps. and yet sony is going with 440 gbps. why?
reiner and colin were told ps5 is more powerful. klee was told the same. so many different insiders were told to expect far higher than 10 tflops. why would all these devs feed their sources BS info?
you look at the ram bandwidth downgrade and you have to ask if they downgraded the gpu recently as well. even the github leaks had test results for over 500 gbps.
i wouldnt be surprised if sony was aiming for 12-13 tflops and ended up going with a smaller cheaper console later and went back to the ariel chip configuration from 2019 to save on costs.
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Its the same as RDNA2, which is the same as the XSX solution, it has less RT cores because they scale with CUs but they run at a higher frequency so the difference will be closer to the difference in TFLOPs then the difference in CUs you may additionally see a difference due to the difference in bandwidth between the two but it won't be that high imo.
Reindeer
Member
How would they get to 12-13 tflops with 36 CU GPU that is already pushed to its limits at ridiculous clocks of 2.25GHz. You got ram and tflop count mixed up there.
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MarkMe2525
Member
This thread looks like it's inhabited by 50% calculus professors.
Reindeer
Member
I'm sorry you failed your calculus test
.
joe_zazen
Member
cerny mentioned having to cap at 10.x because the logic stopped working at higher clocks. Dunno what that means exactly. i doubt they could have clocked it to get higher than xs but maybe..
anyway, reiner was talking about 2019 dev kits, colin knows nothing, and klee plants trees in Alaska.
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
I'm not hundred percent sold on it over good surround sound.
Hell that barbershop just sounds like Stereo to me
MarkMe2525
Member
Real question.. do you not see the series x as really well thought out gaming machine? They both have different goals and both were well crafted to achieve those.
Reindeer
Member
Higher than 2.3Ghz in a console factor? No way they could do that and get to 12 tflops. You would need water cooling and bigger box at that point, and even then it might not be physically possible. If this was possible then Cerny would have fixed those clocks at 2.3Ghz and there would be no need for boost mode.
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HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
They are both going to be great machines and I can't wait.
Smoke6
Member
Man this was a GDC tech keynote basically and wasn’t even intended for the likes of us as they will do that proper at a later date and you’ll Ben singing a different tune!
for fucks sakes man people here forget MS was in a position to do what they did for a reason and it still won’t help them out of the slump their in!
wanna y’all about marketing run by a bunch of rookies, explain the decrease in player base from one gen to the next as the same will happen in the upcoming gen!
with not even 2tf Sony made more happen than ms could with 6 and so what multiplats were a little better, they were still outsold damn near 3:1 and forced MS to throw everything in including the kitchen sink to attract more gamers!
trust and believe game pass wouldn’t be if MS was in Sony position or even close!
Reindeer
Member
Has anyone here said that Xbox was going to win this gen because of specs? No. Don't know why you have a need to remind people that Sony will still (very likely) win in a thread that is about console specs and not about who will dominate next gen in sales. PlayStation has a bigger brand awareness and it's obvious that they will likely remain a market leader.
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joe_zazen
Member
who knows.
but i am super keen to see rdna2 cards, as ps5 @2.3 with a $5 cooler bodes well for next gen amd cards.
Apollo Helios
Member
This post from the other place might help explain.
On HZD point I can add the screen rendered had man small triangles according to Cerny and that definitely pushed some portion of the gpu to max load and since PS4 is thermal targeted the fans kicked in to cool it, bc a portion of gpu was overheating the whole package. On PS5 the target is power and the load or the frequency is tweaked to reach that power target, and if a map screen is pushing above that then presumably frequency will be lowered. But that is not a bad thing in this instance cause the map screen doesn't actually need that much frequency anyway.
Audiophile
Member
If you listened on earphones or headphones and it only sounded like basic stereo then you're likely one of the unlucky people whose HRTF would sit far outside the norm. A custom HRTF profile like Cerny was alluding to should fix this.
That demo should sound very close to being in the room and voices/sounds should have an eerie sense of locality, presence and subsequent reality.
They also intend to map this tech out to TVs, Soundbars and Surround Sound over time; the latter of which would be like Dolby Atmos on steroids. This effectively makes for one audio standard for all which then makes the best possible situation out of any given setup.
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ethomaz
Banned
How reliable is that info about the soft cap? The GPU can go over 2230Mhz?This post from the other place might help explain.
On HZD point I can add the screen rendered had man small triangles according to Cerny and that definitely pushed some portion of the gpu to max load and since PS4 is thermal targeted the fans kicked in to cool it, bc a portion of gpu was overheating the whole package. On PS5 the target is power and the load or the frequency is tweaked to reach that power target, and if a map screen is pushing above that then presumably frequency will be lowered. But that is not a bad thing in this instance cause the map screen doesn't actually need that much frequency anyway.
CuriousToe
Member
Pretty much.
Schreier & Dev comments lead me to believe PS5 is far more capable than the 12>10 figure suggests.
As always, I will buy the first console based on games and the second console will follow in time. But I have zero concerns about specs in this equation.
saintjules
Member
Colteastwood caught frauding by qouting "WindowsCentral" as "digital foundry" that's an embarrassing thing to do...
Audiophile
Member
While I'm not expecting the PS5 to look like its devkit I wouldn't be surprised if some elements of the V design carry over now we know the clocks. Would be cool if it had a split thermosiphon or something of that nature.
MARTYWOLF
Member
Yeah he said both more powerful or on par with 2080 I think?
ph33rknot
Banned
I think you tripping on the 30fps
Reindeer
Member
Exactly. I doubt Jason was making that up, he was obviously fed wrong info by devs. Developers are also people and some of them have their preferred platforms and might also show signs of fanboy syndrome, just look at VFX and his love for PC in this very thread.
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saintjules
Member
Just posting this out of interest, I'm not here implying the gulf would be closed or anything, but this is kind of interesting. It does sort of feel like Sony hasn't begun trying in earnest to pitch the PS5 yet, GDC was just that, for developers.
"The stuff I'm hearing from developers is very different from what I'm seeing in Sony's marketing strategy,"
"I'm getting texts and DMs from developers being like, this is such a shame, the PS5 is so superior in all these other ways that they're not actually able to message right now, or can't talk about right now. I heard from at least three different people, since the Cerny thing, that the PS5 is actually the superior piece of hardware in a lot of different ways despite what we're seeing in these spec sheets."
PS5 'Superior' to Xbox Series X in a Lot of Ways, But Devs Seem Disappointed by Sony's Communication
Ups and downswww.pushsquare.com
Google Podcasts
With Google Podcasts, you can find and listen to the world's podcasts for free.podcasts.google.com
Ugh! As a Music Producer, I hate when Maddy says 'Techno Beats'. People need to know what genres they're really hearing. Anyway, interesting talk in the segment and I wasn't the only one thinking those silhouettes in the background were stills (somewhat)
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splattered
Member
BGs I want an explanation of this when you're feeling better... you said 10.28 - 10% = 9.2 and asked how it relates to GCN
Then you edited your comment to whatever it is that replaced it.
This week has been so wild!
Feels like The Twilight Zone or something ahhh
ethomaz
Banned
He explained on ERA that devs really told him both machines perform close to each other and that the TFs different doesn’t tell the whole story.
We will see with comparisons late this year if he is right or not.
Reindeer
Member
No, he's right, even RTX 2080TI struggles to run that game at stable 30FPS at native 4K with Ray Tracing. Native 4K60 with Ray Tracing is just not physically possible on next gen consoles, you'll have to cut the resolution down or use machine learning.
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That's why he's trying to damage control so hard right now, it's very unlike him.
Reindeer
Member
He might be damage controlling to protect his sources or his own image because he pushed both consoles being equal for so long. Maybe he's a PS fanboy, I can't say cause I don't know.
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BlackBuzzard
Banned
What even is this post lmfao?!
juaco1993
Neo Member
I think (keyword: 'think' = my opinion) that he's referring to his previous claims. I just now came to realization that on one of the first AMD's keynotes this year, they said that RDNA has a 50% advantage over GCN architecture...
BG's joke TFlops number for PS5 was always 13.8.
9.2 TF x 1.5(50% increase) equals....... yup 13.8
Anywho, that's just what I can think of. Let's wait for BGs to reply.
Edit: grammar
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kyliethicc
Member
Cerny said they could have let the GPU go higher if the game logic could handle it, because the cooling set up can handle it. But it can’t go higher than 2.23 GHz because it would fuck up how the game code runs. Clocks have more impact than just thermals. It affects how the GPU runs the games from a code / technical way too.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
No, what Reiner and Colin said could still be true despite the TF difference. TFs don't tell the whole story w/r/t benchmarks.
Even so, we are only looking at an extremely minescule 16% difference in TF worst case...it's negligible. So devs may have said PS5 was "faster" because things like the SSD and supporting hardware make the biggest difference between the platforms.
I'm amazed Sony was able to get within 16% with 50% less Silicon. If Sony wanted to have blown past 12TF they could have, but it would have resulted in a much more expensive console.
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His sources are anonymous. He's trying to protect his own. Image because he was wrong.
Nah, Klee said he had the spec sheets and Reiner specified he was talking about TFs.
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Apollo Helios
Member
I listened to it on my MacBook Pro laptop and even then I could tell from where the sounds was coming and the guy was speaking from. Putting on headphones it is much better and I could place the sounds in distance if I close my eyes. If the sounds are gonna be like this next gen then we are in for a treat. I played Hellblade on One X with my headphones and it was an experience even better than this since I could feel voices coming inside my head and circling around my if you know what I mean and I would love each and every one of the games that ever hits the market is going to be like that then people will understand the serious effect of great sound.
It can go over that but going over presumably produces diminishing returns and also at a certain point the switching gates inside the die in the size of nanometers just stop doing what they are supposed to which means they stop functioning unless you go down the clock. So that cap is really that, a cap that you just shouldn't go above. This marks the ceiling of the architecture most likely. If a few dollars worth of ingenious cooling solution is good enough to push the chip into ceiling, it bodes well for RDNA 2 and AMD as the AIO market will also be pushing 2+ GHz on their premium cards. It is however much harder to push a larger chip like in SeX which has smaller headroom or lower ceiling which means the exact same thing, and it was probably pushed to the max on MS console too.
I am hoping for the exact same design simply because it was unique and awesome. Just perhaps a little smaller or thinner as the dev kits were tall and thick. But I want all those vents in my retail PS5 perhaps even more than that
ethomaz
Banned
That is not what the guy quoted is saying... that is why I’m questioning him.
For what I understood you can’t go over the soft cap.
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Audiophile
Member
I'm thinking of starting a business where I provide stock silhouettes of crowds to companies doing online keynotes.
B_Boss
Member
Posted already?
blog.us.playstation.com
Unveiling New Details of PlayStation 5: Hardware Technical Specs [UPDATED]
Watch live for a deep dive into PS5's system architecture and how it will shape the future of games.
blog.us.playstation.com
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Reindeer
Member
That makes the most sense because praising PS5 specs would ensure that PS fans who believed him for so long don't come after him, people would just forget that Jason was completely wrong about specs and everything would be dandy. I can't say this is definitely the case but it seems likely looking at the way he was acting.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
Then that makes no sense, since we've known the MS TF figure since January of 2019.
If they had spec sheets/TF figures, then the PS5 has never been more powerful than the 12TF figure cited in terms of FLOPS.
The only thing that makes sense is that in an actual GAME ENVIRONMENT PS5 has been faster due to higher clocks/SSD/supporting hardware.
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