kyliethicc
Member
Yup 512 GB/s would’ve been the better choice.
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devilNprada
Member
I say again.. Would that not depend on the type of game you are playing? Wouldn't a game like Elderscrolls benefit more from faster load times then it would framerates and graphics? I agree with Phil in that a console is the best way to play(some games) .. But if you use tflops as the one and only criteria determining the best experience, would it not then always simply be a PC? I argue the PC with all the tflops in the world is no longer the best way to Play a Civ game. Which my point is tf will not be the significant best experience factor in all games...
Wow, there's a lot of people doing a lot of work to deny what's really undeniable. The Series X has a spec advantage this time around and it'll almost certainly be the best place to play third party titles.
The sudden, almost religious, fervour around SSDs is exactly the same kind of speculative claims that we saw at the start of last gen but with the roles reversed. "...but the cloud!" has become ...but the SSD!".
More power is just that and more power means better graphics and performance.
The sudden, almost religious, fervour around SSDs is exactly the same kind of speculative claims that we saw at the start of last gen but with the roles reversed. "...but the cloud!" has become ...but the SSD!".
More power is just that and more power means better graphics and performance.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Well, that's another part where I should hammer that SSD again into the argument. Cerny said that it'll pick only needed data directly from the SSD without duplicates/replicas, saving so much time and processing and even making the games smaller in PS5 overall (making that 1TB smaller on comparison). If you don't want to get into this argument, how about skipping this and watch the GDC confress again. Developers DON'T need to work around PS5's ultra fast SSD, it has its integrated smart AI that'll only stream what's needed directly from the SSD, saving a huge time for developers to focus more on other areas.
It's like ABS in cars and other tech, the system will do it for you.
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Something that concerns me is the Cerny's wording across the presentation. "Couple" is the word used when you want to describe small range like from 2 to 5, because 6 is already "half a dozen", and it's clearly not 2, at least all the time. And 5% drop from the gpu frequency making it's performance less then 10 TF. Same with the cpu. So it's either cpu is around 3,3 Ghz, or gpu performance is around 9,7 TF. Still near, but you got the point.
Another thing is that the presentation was pictured as the showcase for developers, yet there's not a single mention of VRS or similar feature. And the way Mark told about RT capabilities of the gpu.
So thing that bothering me is that Sony's gpu solution isn't fully based on rdna2 and some rumors and speculations pointing this are true. I just hope that there will be some new clarification info like with BC that will adress these not so clear points of the presentation.
Another thing is that the presentation was pictured as the showcase for developers, yet there's not a single mention of VRS or similar feature. And the way Mark told about RT capabilities of the gpu.
So thing that bothering me is that Sony's gpu solution isn't fully based on rdna2 and some rumors and speculations pointing this are true. I just hope that there will be some new clarification info like with BC that will adress these not so clear points of the presentation.
CuriousToe
Member
I did watch the presentation. I just think you're too optimistic about the true impact of the SSD. It will be incredible for exclusives. Your average 3rd party developer will be able to close the gap smaller than what 12>10 would normally be. But I would not expect the PS5 to be equal to or stronger for multiplats.
Shmunter
Member
SSD is irrelevant, MS will likely release an Arcade sku of XsX with no SSD. This is the touted Lockheart model. You’ll be able to fit one as an option by plugging it into the provided slot. That’s how much more power the 1.8TF provides, it’s a game changer, SSD is just the new power of the cloud, mark my words!!!
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
It's the gaps that matter. In all areas other than GPU the advantage for the SX is so miniscule I doubt it'll make any difference whatsoever and according to devs the higher clocks actually help minimize the GPU gap. It's certainly not looking like it'll be a noticable enough gap with third parties to get another $500+ console just for a few more pixels on the one I already have a bunch of BC games and online account with and that I know has a gazillion awesome exclusives to enjoy. If it were some huge gap like 40% GPU and way faster memory then maybe that'd be something to consider.
Sorry man, for Multiplatform games, the ssd will not provide an advantage compared to Xbox series x.
The series X already has a very fast SSD, AND at the same time, has better cpu, gpu, memory and RT....
if series x would have a traditional HDD then yes, but they already have a super fast ssd... Sony’s ssd will be wasted and not really utilized by third party devs. And it’s not THAT important anyway. The SSD is SLOWER to an gddr3. Lol.
are you seriously saying that an SSD is MORE IMPORTANT to graphical fidelity, to resolution, to FPS than GPU+CPU+Memory+RT???
Audiophile
Member
Sorry man, for Multiplatform games, the ssd will not provide an advantage compared to Xbox series x.
The series X already has a very fast SSD, AND at the same time, has better cpu, gpu, memory and RT....
if series x would have a traditional HDD then yes, but they already have a super fast ssd... Sony’s ssd will be wasted and not really utilized by third party devs. And it’s not THAT important anyway. The SSD is SLOWER to an gddr3. Lol.
are you seriously saying that an SSD is MORE IMPORTANT to graphical fidelity, to resolution, to FPS than GPU+CPU+Memory+RT???
It doesn't have to be more important to graphical fidelity, res etc. While it does eliminate most, if not all potential bottlenecks in those areas that can arise from storage, its main advantages lay in the fundamental functionality of the game world and the possibilities therein. Why are we stuck in this one track mind that it HAS to be important to just graphics? And I say that as a total graphics whore.
To quote a really recent post of mine...
"Both are great systems but they each had their priorities and Sony simply went further in this regard [SSD], it seems they've reached a threshold where there will be an even greater array of gameplay possibilities, particularly without compromising complexity.
When you can effectively teleport between two distinct, detailed environments in a second or load in new terrain faster than you can effectively traverse it, then the functional possibilities in a game environment become virtually limitless. Imagination and manpower will become the limit."
^ That, to me, is a far more valuable proposition than real world performance differential that will amount to ~10% (think ~2034p vs ~2160p).
Also, yes, the additional SSD grunt won't bring a great deal more to multiplatform games. But why can't they innovate for the sake of their first party games? It's not like they're thin on the ground or a load of stinkers.
Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
But MS already has a console with a 2tf power advantage and it's not really enough to move most off PS. and with larger numbers overall making it less of a percentage difference why would it have a big noticable leap in graphics this time?SSD is irrelevant, MS will likely release an Arcade sku of XsX with no SSD. This is the touted Lockheart model. You’ll be able to fit one as an option by plugging it into the provided slot. That’s how much more power the 1.8TF provides, it’s a game changer, SSD is just the new power of the cloud, mark my words!!!
kyliethicc
Member
Yeah this is the funny thing about the Series X... By 2021 or 2022, there will be way better PC rigs using the same PCIe 4.0 SSDs and whatever new Nvidia or AMD cards. If all someone wants is the best graphics for 3rd party games wouldn’t the best route be PC?
I love my PS4 because despite’s it’s lack of high end power, it has great games. PC gaming rig shit on the 1.8 TF PS4, but it has great games. The only few games I want to play on my PS4 I can’t are Nintendo Switch games like Mario & Zelda. And the Switch is even weaker, still has great games. I hope PS5 is the same. Just great games, powerful enough for fun times.
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James Sawyer Ford
Gold Member
I suspect third parties will offer better textures and texture streaming (LOD) for PS5 for some titles, and it’s going to depend on the quality of the developer.
so then it becomes a situation of, do I prefer a higher resolution image that’s got blurrier, less detailed textures, with more pop in?
or, do I prefer a slightly lower resolution image with greatly reduced loading times, better texture quality, less pop in, etc?
id pick the latter
hell, the consoles are so close in power most devs may not even make one version better than the other. They will lock them at the same resolution and framerate.
at the difference levels we are discussing it may not be worth their time trying to eek out any differences
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
You may say optimistic, but many devs are sharing the same idea. Won't be one system better at all, but it'll depend on every game and its variations.
Why would I be optimistic? It's the same technique done on Horizon Zero Dawn but on steroids. And the gap between 12>10? Seems you missed it, but here:
2080 (10.1 TF) vs 2080 Super (11.9 TF) at 4K with same settings, watch the fps.
1-5fps with no optimization for locked 60fps and with the same memory, no Kraken magic, no ultra fast SSD on one side. It's not even funny to talk about it.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
He said mostly not more than 1-2% in worst scenario as the power target is already capped to work the same wither you're playing in summer or winter, and that 2% is enough to reduce power consumption by 10%.
About other stuff just don't over think it, many xbox shills try to plant FUD into PS fans. Wait and see what exclusive mean in 2020-2023 because during that period you'll see non from the other side as Booty explained.
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Shmunter
Member
Sorry, my post was so sarcastic I thought it was more obvious.
Games are a real-time process highly depended on assets to produce results. A system that can deliver assets faster, the more scope opens up for the game. The difference between PS5, XsX and traditional Hdd is significant, in that order.
A system that offers extra 1.8tf at already these high levels does not present as much game changing scope, not even in the same stratosphere.
And that’s the sum and substance off it. Things will become apparent when these thing release, which likely will be delayed into next year now so I’m looking forward to reading neogaf going in circles till then, not!
Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
Oh I hope not. China seems to be getting somewhat stabilized though they can't be completely back until treatment advances but MS and Sony both mentioned the date pretty recently so I have to think they'll keep things on schedule
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Not to mention that wacky memory in XSX that 10GB will tank so badly with next gen games as even current RE2 remake can use up to 15GB VRAM!
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Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
You may say optimistic, but many devs are sharing the same idea. Won't be one system better at all, but it'll depend on every game and its variations.
Why would I be optimistic? It's the same technique done on Horizon Zero Dawn but on steroids. And the gap between 12>10? Seems you missed it, but here:
2080 (10.1 TF) vs 2080 Super (11.9 TF) at 4K with same settings, watch the fps.
3-5fps with no optimization for locked 60fps and with the same memory, no Kraken magic, no ultra fast SSD on one side. It's not even funny to talk about it.
Wow this really puts this into perspective. This difference is not NEARLY enough to not just get the third parties on the system I'm already gonna be enjoying exclusives on and for over twice as many people the system that will have a lot of games already able to play on it that they own already for PS4
Shmunter
Member
China will be too busy scooping up the rest of the world for pennies in the dollar. Yes, China will be our global overlords. They couldn’t have planned it better, maybe they did?
But that’s a topic I’m trying to not think about by expressing the merits of SSD to people that will never listen!
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Seems like there is a misunderstanding that only 1st party will use that SSD to its potential. ALL games will benefit from it as it doesn't need to duplicate files and stream them directly to CPU/GPU/RAM while freeing them instantly from unwanted assets so you can use that freed room for more framerates/graphics. It doesn't need extra work from 3rd party developers, and that's the magic of the PS5 API+SSD.
Audiophile
Member
You're applying a blanket statement without accounting for any nuance.
Few people are denying there is a spec advantage and those who do would be wrong. Most, like myself, are stating where their priorities lie.
The XSX has a TF advantage of 16-20%; that's undeniable. What's also undeniable is that when you take into account how GPUs behave at vastly different clockspeeds, the PS5 GPU will mitigate roughly half that performance gap. The XSX still has the lead in that regard but it's probably around half what the TF measurements suggest.
This is a technical argument with weight behind it, not denial. Unfortunately we have people at extremes on either side of the fence when in reality the answer lays somewhere in between and anyone in the middle attempting to make a reasoned argument gets caught in the crossfire.
So, to get back to my point... it's a case of where do your priorities lie from a purely technical standpoint?
If it's ~10% more graphical fidelity or resolution then it's Xbox.
If it's much faster, more granular SSD and the subsequent possibilities that can enable in games, it's PlayStation.
There is no right or wrong answer, I'm simply trying to convey the point and back it up with sound reasoning.
Of course, when it comes to priorities, for most people it's going to be exclusive games, ecosystem, familiarity and where friends/family play.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Above all of that, devs will most likely work on the easy-to-develop-on (PS5) and optimize the games for 60fps locked (~70fps headroom) which will then be ported to XSX with minor tweaks and the end result is both running at solid 60fps.
Let's just not mention Lockhart, the nightmare of gaming. XSX BOM is around $520, while PS5 is reported at $450. Sony could easily push it to $400, Microsoft as a company won't accept a whopping $120 loss on each console that will end up selling 20-30 million in 7 years. Can't wait for the launch day, the only luck for XSX to sell "ok" is severe PS5 shortages, just like last time with PS4.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
On PS5's custom Geometry Engine inside its GPU, a principle software engineer had this to say:
Bo_Hazem
Banned
That's another thing that I couldn't fully comprehend. Man, that boring lecture is literally Mark Cerny schooling Xbox Division. I've heard on youtube that VRS is actually taxing on CPU and GPU.
Wow, the big dam is only leaking at this point, what would happen when it opens its gates (games). "Exciting times indeed" in a Mancunian accent
.
kyliethicc
Member
I’m pretty sure the Geometry Engine is just the PS5 name for a standard RDNA 2 feature from AMD. I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure XSX and PC will have this feature too, at least to some extent.That's another thing that I couldn't fully comprehend. Man, that boring lecture is literally Mark Cerny schooling Xbox Division. I've heard on youtube that VRS is actually taxing on CPU and GPU.
Wow, the big dam is only leaking at this point, what would happen when it opens its gates (games). "Exciting times indeed" in a Mancunian accent
I'm sorry, but he said "couple", not "one-two". And "couple" is a somewhat tricky word.
I know, but this presentation is leaving too much room for speculations. And that's the things Sony should adress as soon, as possible. I just hope that there's a state of play with less tables and more in-engine visualisations that will give us more insights in rdna2 features implemented in the gpu in the nearest weeks.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Yup, it's pretty painful for some after watching the details there hearing that PS5 would potentially be $50 cheaper. Love how he showed games in action, even X1X vs PS4 Pro with with around 42.8% difference between the two in GPU power.
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sendit
Member
Very intrigued on how developers will use the SSD in designing games (specifically Sony first party). However, to say a 3rd party developer doesn't need to do additional work is just wrong. If X game has said logic to duplicate data to optimize for the limited ram or slower SSD, and ports to a console with more available ram and a much faster SSD. There is going to be extra work involved.
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kyliethicc
Member
Just wanted to mention to anyone worried about either PS5 or Xbox X, the PS4 Pro with its “just 4.2 TFLOPS” and 5.5 GB of GDDR5 @ 217 GB/s, using a shitty slow hard drive, and an old weak Jaguar CPU at only 2.1 GHz..... still manages to run the brand new DOOM Eternal at 1440p with a solid 60 FPS using a mix of PC High and Ultra settings. (According to Digital Foundry.)
And the Xbox One X, with its 1.5x more powerful 6 TF GPU, 9 GB of GDDR5 at 326 GB/s, and higher CPU clock speed.... manages to do literally the same as Pro but at 1800p (with a few more frame rate dips.)
So that’s it. More powerful console hits 1800p, the weaker one 1440p. Same game, same frame rates. Same quality and settings. The Xbox One X has 1.5x GPU TF, almost 2x RAM, 1.33x bandwidth, and a higher CPU clock. It achieved a 20% higher resolution but with a few frame rate hitches. That’s it. A difference almost no one would be able to notice with their eyes. Both systems run the game great.
So yeah... I’m not worried about next gen. Both consoles will be VERY powerful. More than enough. Everyone will have great games.
And the Xbox One X, with its 1.5x more powerful 6 TF GPU, 9 GB of GDDR5 at 326 GB/s, and higher CPU clock speed.... manages to do literally the same as Pro but at 1800p (with a few more frame rate dips.)
So that’s it. More powerful console hits 1800p, the weaker one 1440p. Same game, same frame rates. Same quality and settings. The Xbox One X has 1.5x GPU TF, almost 2x RAM, 1.33x bandwidth, and a higher CPU clock. It achieved a 20% higher resolution but with a few frame rate hitches. That’s it. A difference almost no one would be able to notice with their eyes. Both systems run the game great.
So yeah... I’m not worried about next gen. Both consoles will be VERY powerful. More than enough. Everyone will have great games.
manzo
Member
After a couple of days looking at the specs of both, it’s not the 1,7tf difference that hurts the PS5 anymore, it’s the memory bandwidth. Same issue for the Series X.
448gb/sec gives roughly 12gb/sec per CU of BW for PS5. When only using the fast pool (560gb/sec), Series X gets 10gb/sec per CU and less than 10 if some of the data is in the slow pool (360gb/sec). That’s going to be a bottleneck for both.
There was a version of Oberon on Github with 530gb/sec. That would’ve been great for 36 CU’s. Looks like it was a cost-cutting measure for Sony to slow down the memory. The worst design mistake in PS4 Pro was it’s mem BW which was one of the causes for larger gap between One X and the Pro.
I wonder why the BW got the axe -again-. Looks like BW starved consoles are still on the menu for the foreseeable future.
448gb/sec gives roughly 12gb/sec per CU of BW for PS5. When only using the fast pool (560gb/sec), Series X gets 10gb/sec per CU and less than 10 if some of the data is in the slow pool (360gb/sec). That’s going to be a bottleneck for both.
There was a version of Oberon on Github with 530gb/sec. That would’ve been great for 36 CU’s. Looks like it was a cost-cutting measure for Sony to slow down the memory. The worst design mistake in PS4 Pro was it’s mem BW which was one of the causes for larger gap between One X and the Pro.
I wonder why the BW got the axe -again-. Looks like BW starved consoles are still on the menu for the foreseeable future.
geordiemp
Member
And devs will use the SSD on both, at other place activsion comments on more work for him
The generation of SSD begins, and no its no just first party....its
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Of course extra work, but much less with less SSD speed. Meaning, you as a developer can just pin-point the field of view chunk per player, and accordingly the system logic of PS5 will do the rest. It saves much more time and uses less data and less stress on main gaming parts.
Evilms
Banned
Current Generation Hardware Speculation with a Technical Spin [post GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]
psorcerer said: There's a lot of confusion on why SSD is so important for next-gen and how it will change things. Here I will try to explain the main concepts. TL;DR fast SSD is a game changing feature, this generation will be fun to watch! It was working fine before, why do we even need that...
forum.beyond3d.com
pasterpl
Member
what? How?
based on lots of comments here I think Nvidia is in trouble as everyone should stick to their 1060 cards and just update their hdd with ssd...this is sad guys. Very sad.
B_Boss
Member
Your words sound exactly how the devs who DM’d Schreier sound
(after Cerny’s GDC bit). Those devs wondered exactly why Sony didn’t show off what that console is truly capable of even going as far as to say that the PS5 is superior to the series X in many ways(?). Until that is revealed we wait.
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It’s pro vs X all over again
with Series X coming out on top. That’s fast vs wide design, it is what it is . It’s a lotus sports car philosophy vs a Bugatti Veyron ... everyone knows which one wins in pure power.But carry on .
It’s clear to me PS5 was designed for 399 in mind with beter performance for 399 and a 2019 release date. And Cerny did a excellent job with these guides in place. To bad component pricing got in the way.
Xbox is best all around.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Like speeding the transfer of data faster? Heard it in a video on youtube, will look it up as it should be around DF I think. When I find it, I should mention you in the post.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
Pin-pointed:
The main video that I heard it in was about PS5, can't remember where tho. But I guess you get the idea.
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kyliethicc
Member
And for all that “better” there’s basically no difference for games.It’s pro vs X all over again
But carry on .
It’s clear to me PS5 was designed for 399 in mind with beter performance for 399 and a 2019 release date. And Cerny did a excellent job with these guides in place. To bad component pricing got in the way.
Xbox is best all around.
As for cars, a Veyron vs a Lotus is a shit metaphor.
More like a Ford GT with it’s twin turbo V6, versus the Lamborghini Aventador with its naturally aspirated V12. Both are very fast. The Ford has more torque, and is faster to 100mph, while the Lamborghini has more horsepower and will win the race over a 1/4 mile. The Ford is using a smaller engine and boosting it, keeping weight lower and is thus faster off the line and through the corners. The Lamborghini however, is raw power. If the straights are long enough for it to hit top speeds, it will catch the Ford and overtake it. Neither one is universally better. Same with PS5 vs Xbox. Different approaches.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
It’s pro vs X all over again
But carry on .
It’s clear to me PS5 was designed for 399 in mind with beter performance for 399 and a 2019 release date. And Cerny did a excellent job with these guides in place. To bad component pricing got in the way.
Xbox is best all around.
Nah, that's not accurate. Let's make it The V16, quad-turboed Bugatti Veyron 1001hp vs The hybrid V8 Porsche 918 (the electricity here is the SSD, secret sauce) 875hp.
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Lunatic_Gamer
Gold Member
“Games tend to matter more than the hardware itself in each console generation. When people see what a Horizon sequel looks like on PS5, they won't be thinking about how the specs line up next to the Xbox Series X. They'll just be wishlisting the console to themselves.”
www.techradar.com
PS5 vs Xbox Series X: which current-gen console should you buy?
The PS5 and Xbox Series X compared
Metroiddarks
Member
Well this confirm VRS, I can swear Cerny sometimes is not bes spokesperson mentioned so many things but was not able to even put in a page of the presentation things like that.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
“Games tend to matter more than the hardware itself in each console generation. When people see what a Horizon sequel looks like on PS5, they won't be thinking about how the specs line up next to the Xbox Series X. They'll just be wishlisting the console to themselves.”
PS5 vs Xbox Series X: which current-gen console should you buy?
The PS5 and Xbox Series X compared
Personally, I hope Halo is going to be a good game, want to try it on PC. Let's hope both will deliver on that front.
megreotsugua
Banned
Megatextures, highly detailed textures EVERYWHERE AT EVERY TURN.
Metroiddarks
Member
Cerny really needs someone who prepare his presentation XD I learn more of PS5 gpu in two twits than 10 min of tha last presentation lol
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