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[CJY]

So I found this thread on Reddit and it seems to explain the memory structure of XSX very well:





I don't really understand why MS did this. I guess it's because they needed the 10 chips for their larger CU count and a cost-cutting measure. While it's not as bad a setup as I thought it was originally, in many ways it's smart, but feck me if it's not still a MASSIVE compromise compared to what Cerny did.

The XSX setup seems worse than having a completely separate pool of RAM on a separate bus as the slower RAM can intrude on the fast RAM's ability to access itself on that channel.

XSX essentially only has 4GB of unencumbered RAM.

 

[eastwood333]

yet your pcie nvme ssd won't be much faster than a sata ssd. We don't know how much of that is due to lack of optimization and how much is due to the bottlenecks Cerny mentioned. Bottlenecks that the ps5 does not have.

The best looking games are probably Detroit, Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima and RDR2, imo.

I disagree. Detroit is extremely linear with few npc or much going on, with limited gameplay. DMC5 is near native 4k and at 60fps with some of the richest lookin character models to boot. I Gears 5 is a 60fps game and near native 4k and looks amazing. DS looks great, but not much going on in terms of npc, only at 30fp where its mostly walking. Doom Eternal is close to native 4k with a ton going on at near locked 60fps.

 

[CJY]

So I suppose PS5 has 8*2GB chips = 448GB/s

 

[eastwood333]

RDR 2 on X1X compared to PS4 Pro version (outside resolution of course ) is graphically equal in all department.

The PS4 Pro version is significantly more blurry running at much lower resolution. Read the DF article.

And yes, I believe the XB1X version of RDR2 is the best looking console game of this gen.

 

[Ascend]

Nobody said this. You are still making things up.

What's the difference between saying "making things up" and saying "not viable". Yeah. Nothing. So you can't tell me nobody said it's not viable and then immediately tell me I'm making things up. It's either one or the other.

Explain to me why you are comparing the generational jump difference between the PS4 to PS5 and the Xbox One to XSX? What's the point here?

Answering a question with another question is rude, but I'll humor you. Theoretically, with say 4 times the power you can push 4 times the pixels. So if you could run 1080p 60fps, theoretically (I know it's more complicated than that, but spare me), you could run the exact same game at 4K 60FPS.

Care to answer now? Is comparing the generation jump difference like I did viable, or does it fall into the 'making things up' category according to you?

 

[Rolling_Start]

AFAIK from what was explained in DF reveal, if 'any' access to either pool from either chip happens, then the whole 16GB drops to the lower bandwidth. The normal situation I described needs a constant stream of workload updates for the GPU from the CPU, so how that data access pattern can be avoided in any XsX game seems like a complete misrepresentation of the real situation. That the XsX has effective memory bandwidth of 336GB/s. In my first asking of the question I speculated that the adding of the bandwidths (560GB/s + 336GB) is likely possible when loading data into both memory pools prior to user control logic kicking in. I also wondered if there was some advanced way to DMA through the SSD for CPU update writes and GPU reads - when streaming in new asset data. But even then, such small constant data bubbles at 60 or more times per second would then surely be dragging the bandwidth down, or be hampering SSD bandwidth, wouldn't you think?

There aren't two memory pools. There's one, but with different address ranges having a different bus width.

The proportion of accesses that you split between the 560GB/s address range and the 336GB/s range determines what your actual throughput is.

There is no way that any remotely competent developer could bring XSX effective bandwidth down towards PS5 levels.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I disagree. Detroit is extremely linear with few npc or much going on, with limited gameplay. DMC5 is near native 4k and at 60fps with some of the richest lookin character models to boot. I Gears 5 is a 60fps game and near native 4k and looks amazing. DS looks great, but not much going on in terms of npc, only at 30fp where its mostly walking. Doom Eternal is close to native 4k with a ton going on at near locked 60fps.

Death Stranding if you see the video you will see has the entire world dynamically transform around you.

Detroit looks photo real in some areas.

Counter strike can probably run at 8k 120+fps maybe even on next gen consoles. That wouldn't make it best looking.

The kingsglaive cg looks better than any game, even if you somehow got it at 480p with 24 fps.

Go to youtube put it at 480p, it still blows all games out of the water

 

[ethomaz]

AFAIK from what was explained in DF reveal, if 'any' access to either pool from either chip happens, then the whole 16GB drops to the lower bandwidth. The normal situation I described needs a constant stream of workload updates for the GPU from the CPU, so how that data access pattern can be avoided in any XsX game seems like a complete misrepresentation of the real situation. That the XsX has effective memory bandwidth of 336GB/s. In my first asking of the question I speculated that the adding of the bandwidths (560GB/s + 336GB) is likely possible when loading data into both memory pools prior to user control logic kicking in. I also wondered if there was some advanced way to DMA through the SSD for CPU update writes and GPU reads - when streaming in new asset data. But even then, such small constant data bubbles at 60 or more times per second would then surely be dragging the bandwidth down, or be hampering SSD bandwidth, wouldn't you think?

You can’t add because it is a single 320bits bus.

 

[eastwood333]

I'm saying games like Gears 5, DMC5,Doom Eternal are very impressive technically with a ton of things going on on top of having near locked 60fps. Twice the framerate of something like Detroit, which is about at linear as a game can be, with no action going on, few npcs, no combat, at half the framerate.

Are you seriously trying to compare Counter Strike to the graphical fedelity of Gears 5, Doom Eternal,DMC5 etc?
You lost any crediblity with me. And i'm done here.
And why are you linking me a video of cutscenes?

 

[CJY]

You can’t add because it is a single 320bits bus.

It's a single bus with 10 channels though? see tweets above

 

[it_wasn't_me]

The PS4 Pro version is significantly more blurry running at much lower resolution. Read the DF article.

And yes, I believe the XB1X version of RDR2 is the best looking console game of this gen.

I've said: outside resolution.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

yet your pcie nvme ssd won't be much faster than a sata ssd. We don't know how much of that is due to lack of optimization and how much is due to the bottlenecks Cerny mentioned. Bottlenecks that the ps5 does not have.

The best looking games are probably Detroit, Death Stranding, Ghost of Tsushima and RDR2, imo.

edit:
I doubt the audio CU is part of RDNA2, I think it was a cell like CU inspired by cell. It might even have uses outside audio.

I think ghost of tsushima. death stranding and detroit compete with rdr2. I also think digital foundy gave top graphics to death stranding

Yes, It's so expensive yet it tanks pretty quickly then gets throttled. PC's in general mated with Windows are shit, but you got no alternative than picking one when you need them.

PS5 FTW!

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Some nostalgia. Man, who was on the Marketing team for these?

This guy is a genius! Is he still in the marketing field with Sony? Never seen any of his ads before.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I'm saying games like Gears 5, DMC5,Doom Eternal are very impressive technically with a ton of things going on on top of having near locked 60fps. Twice the framerate of something like Detroit, which is about at linear as a game can be, with no action going on, few npcs, no combat, at half the framerate.

Detroit has little action but there are scenes with hundreds or even thousands of npcs.

And we're talking better looking not more technically advanced.

According to Digital Foundry, Red Dead Redemption 2 achieves native 4K resolution on Xbox One X, while simultaneously maintaining a near-constant 30 frames-per-second (30 FPS). -windowscentral

Doom Eternal is probably more technically advanced than RDR 2, as is likely minecraft with ray tracing. But RDR2 is better looking than both.

edit

And why are you linking me a video of cutscenes?

I linked it to show that computer graphics can be better even if the resolution and framerate is lower.

Control with raytracing at 1440p 30fps, looks better than Gears 5 at 4k 60fps.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Apparently they went back to creepy ass heart trailers, oof.

This one was really amazing:

 

[eastwood333]

Detroit has little action but there are scenes with hundreds or even thousands of npcs.

And we're talking better looking not more technically advanced.



Doom Eternal is probably more technically advanced than RDR 2, as is likely minecraft with ray tracing. But RDR2 is better looking than both.

I disagree again. RDR2 is extremely good looking while also being extremely technically impressive. The lighting,physics for example. The animations. The huge draw distances etc

 

[eastwood333]

Detroit has little action but there are scenes with hundreds or even thousands of npcs.

And we're talking better looking not more technically advanced.



Doom Eternal is probably more technically advanced than RDR 2, as is likely minecraft with ray tracing. But RDR2 is better looking than both.

edit

I linked it to show that computer graphics can be better even if the resolution and framerate is lower.

Control with raytracing at 1440p 30fps, looks better than Gears 5 at 4k 60fps.

RDR does not run at 60fps, buts also an open world game vs the smaller arenas in Doom Eternal.

Both are exceptionally good looking while also being technically impressive in different ways.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

I disagree again. RDR2 is extremely good looking while also being extremely technically impressive. The lighting,physics for example. The animations. The huge draw distances etc

I'm not saying it ain't. But it is likely Doom Eternal is even more so.

And Detroit is no slouch either, just because it's a calmer setting doesn't mean it ain't technically impressive.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

PS5 SSD is replaceable.
There is no additional expansion slot... M.2 MVMe skit is where the drive that comes with it is.


There are two PS5 expanded storage options for the PS5:

• Replacing the internal drive within the PS5 with a Sony-certified, off-the-shelf SSD
• Plugging in an external hard drive

If it was replaceable they won't ask for 7GB/s.

 

[PaintTinJr]

There aren't two memory pools. There's one, but with different address ranges having a different bus width.

The proportion of accesses that you split between the 560GB/s address range and the 336GB/s range determines what your actual throughput is.

There is no way that any remotely competent developer could bring XSX effective bandwidth down towards PS5 levels.

I'm really not following. If those respective address ranges give different bandwidths and the game is interactive.... CPU logic/RAM is changed by continuously streaming control pad inputs in to that logic and memory, and the GPU workload changes because of CPU logic (on PC the GPU driver is mapped in CPU ram) which means data constantly streaming between 6GB (3.5GB) range and 10GB GDDR6 range, then how does it still maintain the 560GB/s performance while constantly interrupted by slower 336GB/s range updates? Are we saying that just one of the 2GB modules handles the streaming of updates from a 1GB CPU module? And if so, what is the overall knock on effect for the GPU bandwidth ?

 

[eastwood333]

I'm not saying it ain't. But it is likely Doom Eternal is even more so.

And Detroit is no slouch either, just because it's a calmer setting doesn't mean it ain't technically impressive.

Well neither is Gears 5, The Witcher 3,RE2,DMC 5, all of which are doing significantly more things other than just putting majority of assets into the character models and static imvironments with little way of any kind of interactivity.Those type of games are far more demanding

 

[ethomaz]

So I found this thread on Reddit and it seems to explain the memory structure of XSX very well:





I don't really understand why MS did this. I guess it's because they needed the 10 channels for their larger CU count and a cost-cutting measure. While it's not as bad a setup as I thought it was originally, in many ways it's smart, but feck me if it's not still a MASSIVE compromise compared to what Cerny did.

The XSX setup seems worse than having a completely separate pool of RAM on a separate bus as the slower RAM can intrude on the fast RAM's ability to access itself on that channel.

XSX essentially only has 4GB of unencumbered RAM.

That is the first explained where the guy really was accurate and did in a way that anybody can understand.

Fantastic.

He deserves the praise for that.

People started to created bullshit theories about half of RAM running at 1050Mhz lol

 

[BattleScar]

So I found this thread on Reddit and it seems to explain the memory structure of XSX very well:





I don't really understand why MS did this. I guess it's because they needed the 10 channels for their larger CU count and a cost-cutting measure. While it's not as bad a setup as I thought it was originally, in many ways it's smart, but feck me if it's not still a MASSIVE compromise compared to what Cerny did.

The XSX setup seems worse than having a completely separate pool of RAM on a separate bus as the slower RAM can intrude on the fast RAM's ability to access itself on that channel.

XSX essentially only has 4GB of unencumbered RAM.

So its basically like I hypothesised. The first 10GB is accessed at 560GB/s, but if the GPU needs more data, the extra 3.5GB is accessed at 336GB/s. Its a bit of a compromise - creates more headache for the developer to schedule data for RAM to make sure high priority data is accessed quickly, while lower priority data goes to the slower pool. There's also the problem that that extra 3.5GB of RAM will take that much longer to refresh with new data.
Less like having 13.5GBs of RAM, more like having 10+3.5.
Not ideal.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Given how fast pages get added to the thread, Did anybody explain how in actual gameplay... when a controller is continuously feeding inputs to the CPU/CPU memory at double frame-rate or more, and then updating game state in CPU memory at the same rate; leading to updating the GPU/GPU memory continuously at half rate or more, how the memory bandwidth of the XsX 16GB isn’t on average 336GB/s?

Similarly, other than speculating about keeping costs down, was there a reason for the different sized modules that lead to the split memory in XsX? Has anyone speculated that it might be for thermal reasons to leave more headroom for them pushing the GPU clock higher. My thinking is, that if you were warming or cooling something in an ambient temperature you increase surface area to increase the rate of temperature change. Smaller modules means more area and faster cooling.

XSX will cripple so badly the more we go into real next gen games. Resident Evil 2 uses up to 15GB of VRAM! PS5 can get extra assist from its SSD above having more ram space:

Unrealistic amount of Vram required? :: Resident Evil 2 "1-Shot Demo" General Discussions

So I have a GTX 1080 TI and Im running it 1080p. I cranked up all the settings. Max shadow, 6GB of texture quality (8GB is Max). HBOA+ SMAA and etc and that has put my Vram usage to 10.48 GB and the total amount of Vram I have is 10.87. Now if I were to max it out and put Texture to 8GB, it...

steamcommunity.com

Does this actually require 12GB vram in 1080p? :: Resident Evil 2 "1-Shot Demo" General Discussions

The game suggests 12.5gb vram for maxed out settings in 1080p... Obviously my gtx 1060 doesn't handle this, but seriously the game runs smooth with everything maxed and low textures (but looks♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ , how's this possible? Is this a marketing thing for the new Radeon VII (whom selling point is...

steamcommunity.com

 

[Zero707]

is this true ? i think it's too early

 

[ethomaz]

It's a single bus with 10 channels though? see tweets above

10 x 32 bits = 320bits
There is no difference it is a single bus... it is not called channel btw.

When you are using the 320bits bus to access the 1GB of each RAM module you can’t access the other 1GB of the modules and vice versa.

When you are using the 320bits bus and o access the others 1GB you can’t access the first 1GB.

So you can’t add bandwidth.

 

[CJY]

is this true ? i think it's too early

Cool, hope it comes to PC. More people that can play this GotG the better. Then purchase PS5 for GoW2

 

[CJY]

10 x 32 bits = 320bits
There is no difference it is a single bus... it is not called channel btw.

When you are using the 320bits bus to access the 1GB of each RAM module you can’t access the other 1GB of the modules and vice versa.

When you are using the 320bits bus and o access the others 1GB you can’t access the first 1GB.

So you can’t add bandwidth.

I kinda see what you mean, they aren't channels and can't be accessed individually, only in parallel?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Cerny has really stuck to his strategy SSD, Audio,

Cool, hope it comes to PC. More people that can play this GotG the better. Then purchase PS5 for GoW2

Suddenly it'll not be a movie game if it ever happens. The PC Beggars.

 

[Insane Metal]

This guy is a genius! Is he still in the marketing field with Sony? Never seen any of his ads before.

Oh man I loved those commercials, funny as heck

 

[ethomaz]

I kinda see what you mean, they aren't channels and can't be accessed individually, only in parallel?

Yeap only in Parallel... when you fetch the data you fetch from all 32bits simultaneous.

What happens with Xbox is that when you use the memory controller to fetch all 10 32bits buses for the “others” 1GB you only have that additional 1GB in 6 memory chips so 4 buses do nothing... and only 6 works... 336GB/s.

Read the tweet guy you will understand... his pics are perfect.

BTW just now I realized he works to Kojima Productions?

 

[LittleBigGamer]

What? RDR2 on XB1X trumps all. You're saying Days Gone, Spiderman etc are technically more impressive?

You are right about RDR. Imo is just as good as Horizon and the others. Ok you can say it's better of some of them if you want.
Sony exclusives have the same recipe. Huge production values. So most of them have this kind of quality.

 

[kyliethicc]

If it was replaceable they won't ask for 7GB/s.

Yeah he’s just wrong. It has the internal SSD and a 2nd expansion bay for a M2 SSD.

 

[CJY]

Yeap only in Parallel... when you fetch the data you fetch from all 32bits simultaneous.

Damn... it's not a good look for them. I can't imagine any dev coming out in praise of the XSX's RAM setup, and with how much better integrated the SSD is on PS5, I think the RAM + SSD situation is definitely swinging things back into Sony's favour. Seriously seems way better designed without any compromises except in compute performance versus the competition.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

Well neither is Gears 5, The Witcher 3,RE2,DMC 5, all of which are doing significantly more things other than just putting majority of assets into the character models and static imvironments with little way of any kind of interactivity.Those type of games are far more demanding

It doesn't matter how demanding they are. The question is how good looking they are. RDR2 even running at 1080p is better looking than Gears 5, Witcher 3, RE2, and DMC5.

To me something like Hellblade 2(if gameplay matches trailer) would be more impressive than all those games, even if it had less interactivity, and even if it was 30fps and sub 4k.

 

[ethomaz]

So its basically like I hypothesised. The first 10GB is accessed at 560GB/s, but if the GPU needs more data, the extra 3.5GB is accessed at 336GB/s. Its a bit of a compromise - creates more headache for the developer to schedule data for RAM to make sure high priority data is accessed quickly, while lower priority data goes to the slower pool. There's also the problem that that extra 3.5GB of RAM will take that much longer to refresh with new data.
Less like having 13.5GBs of RAM, more like having 10+3.5.
Not ideal.

The extra 6GB to be fair... it is still a single bus shared between games, OS, Apps, etc.

 

[M1chl]

So I found this thread on Reddit and it seems to explain the memory structure of XSX very well:





I don't really understand why MS did this. I guess it's because they needed the 10 chips for their larger CU count and a cost-cutting measure. While it's not as bad a setup as I thought it was originally, in many ways it's smart, but feck me if it's not still a MASSIVE compromise compared to what Cerny did.

The XSX setup seems worse than having a completely separate pool of RAM on a separate bus as the slower RAM can intrude on the fast RAM's ability to access itself on that channel.

XSX essentially only has 4GB of unencumbered RAM.

Care to share what exactly is going to be a compromise, nothing in memory is accessed by accident, nothing is loaded by accident And since graphics calculation and processing calculation is already split differently in code, even at the low level. I do not see really the issue and besides I am sure that engines going to already have a scheduler for this. Programming without any sort of API is long dead for this to be an issue.

 

[44alltheway]

This one was really amazing:

what? really?

 

[kyliethicc]

Cool, hope it comes to PC. More people that can play this GotG the better. Then purchase PS5 for GoW2

Not a wise move long term. A key reason to buy Nintendo and Sony hardware is for exclusive games. Flagships like Mario and God of War sell hardware. Putting those on PC guarantee PC gamers will no longer buy your console. Short term profit chasing, but will erode any brand uniqueness or selling point. Apple gets this, Nintendo gets it. That’s why they control their ecosystems and IP. I bet this is why Shawn Layden quit. Jim Ryan is chasing cash but changing PlayStation to be more like Xbox.

 

[BattleScar]

Care to share what exactly is going to be a compromise, nothing in memory is accessed by accident, nothing is loaded by accident And since graphics calculation and processing calculation is already split differently in code, even at the low level. I do not see really the issue and besides I am sure that engines going to already have a scheduler for this. Programming without any sort of API is long dead for this to be an issue.

I think the issue is, whenever the GPU is accessing the slow 3.5GB for games, that entire memory chip slows down to 336GB/s. At which point you've effectively got 4GB of GDDR6 at 560GB/s, and the remaining 9.5GB at 336GB/s.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

what? really?

I think you got confused. The screen showing Death Stranding was in-game, the rest was real+CGI.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Not a wise move long term. A key reason to buy Nintendo and Sony hardware is for exclusive games. Flagships like Mario and God of War sell hardware. Putting those on PC guarantee PC gamers will no longer buy your console. Short term profit chasing, but will erode any brand uniqueness or selling point. Apple gets this, Nintendo gets it. That’s why they control their ecosystems and IP. I bet this is why Shawn Layden quit. Jim Ryan is chasing cash but changing PlayStation to be more like Xbox.

It will be just fine. Sony will become a brand instead of just hardware.

 

[ethomaz]

I think the issue is, whenever the GPU is accessing the slow 3.5GB for games, that entire memory chip slows down to 336GB/s. At which point you've effectively got 4GB of GDDR6 at 560GB/s, and the remaining 9.5GB at 336GB/s.

I don’t think it is a issue at all.
Each call has it cycle... so it will happen even if the full memory was 560GB/s.

So when you do a call to the 336GB/s part it will only get less data compared with a call to 560GB/s part.

So you just store data in that part that is not critical for realtime render time and you will be fine.

 

[it_wasn't_me]

Detroit has little action but there are scenes with hundreds or even thousands of npcs.

And we're talking better looking not more technically advanced.



Doom Eternal is probably more technically advanced than RDR 2, as is likely minecraft with ray tracing. But RDR2 is better looking than both.

edit

I linked it to show that computer graphics can be better even if the resolution and framerate is lower.

Control with raytracing at 1440p 30fps, looks better than Gears 5 at 4k 60fps.

Little correction, Gears 5 is far from stable native 4k. It has wide range of resolutions

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Not a wise move long term. A key reason to buy Nintendo and Sony hardware is for exclusive games. Flagships like Mario and God of War sell hardware. Putting those on PC guarantee PC gamers will no longer buy your console. Short term profit chasing, but will erode any brand uniqueness or selling point. Apple gets this, Nintendo gets it. That’s why they control their ecosystems and IP. I bet this is why Shawn Layden quit. Jim Ryan is chasing cash but changing PlayStation to be more like Xbox.

If it ever happens, it'll hinder thier sales eventually. It's a dumb move. Not sure how much Steam is paying them though.

 

[CJY]

Not a wise move long term. A key reason to buy Nintendo and Sony hardware is for exclusive games. Flagships like Mario and God of War sell hardware. Putting those on PC guarantee PC gamers will no longer buy your console. Short term profit chasing, but will erode any brand uniqueness or selling point. Apple gets this, Nintendo gets it. That’s why they control their ecosystems and IP. I bet this is why Shawn Layden quit. Jim Ryan is chasing cash but changing PlayStation to be more like Xbox.

I agree with you that long term it's probably a bad strategy but they're probably still in the experimental phase and looking at games on a case-by-case basis. If they're not happy with the results of Horizon 2 and GoW2 and they aren't attracting enough PC users over to PlayStation, I reckon they'll pivot. They haven't committed to that strategy it as of yet.

 

[eastwood333]

It doesn't matter how demanding they are. The question is how good looking they are. RDR2 even running at 1080p is better looking than Gears 5, Witcher 3, RE2, and DMC5.

To me something like Hellblade 2(if gameplay matches trailer) would be more impressive than all those games, even if it had less interactivity, and even if it was 30fps and sub 4k.

That's your standard. Not mine. For me they both need to be considered. The games that can do both are the most impressive to me.

 

[BattleScar]

I don’t think it is a issue at all.
Each call has it cycle... so it will happen even if the full memory was 560GB/s.

I'm not sure I follow. Do you mind explaining this a bit more?

 

[eastwood333]

Cerny has really stuck to his strategy SSD, Audio,

I agree with you that long term it's probably a bad strategy but they're probably still in the experimental phase and looking at games on a case-by-case basis. If they're not happy with the results of Horizon 2 and GoW2 and they aren't attracting enough PC users over to PlayStation, I reckon they'll pivot. They haven't committed to that strategy it as of yet.

Just like MS, Sony is looking beyond hardware. Hardware doesn't make as much money and cost a ton in R&D for hardware, the components, and the potential for huge losses. It's about having an ecosystem that's available on as many platforms as possible (mobile, PC,consoles,smart tv) etc...They are also putting all future MLB The Show games on Xbox and other platforms.

Like or not.

 

[Zero707]

Suddenly it'll not be a movie game if it ever happens. The PC Beggers.

Nah old God Of War >>>>>>> NORSE God Of War