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[MasterCornholio]

You know seek time is just the amount of time to find the data...
You need to transfer it yet and that is limited to 2.4GB/s or whatever speed they got with compressions.

With traditional HDD the disk has to spin to the place where the data is. That's eliminated with the use of an SSD.

But assuming that 100GB is instantly available for use. That would mean a greater transfer rate than than 100GB/S to make that even possible. But the issue is that there are limits to the SSDs read speeds. So the 100GBs of data is actually limited to the read speed of the SSD. Which means that 100GB of data isn't instantly accessible.

That's why I'm confused by that comment.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Yeah, skipped work for 2 days and got a salary cut.

Aren't you a teacher or I remember wrong?
If that's the case, man c'mon you got a responsabilitoh fuck this videogames are just better.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Aren't you a teacher or I remember wrong?
If that's the case, man c'mon you got a responsabilitoh fuck this videogames are just better.

Gamer first, teacher second. And all students love me the most in school, and shout my name when they see me outside But you know, it was the last MGS ever, and that base mechanic was so addictive. My base was the number one in the world for like 2-3 weeks from launch.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Not with 5.5 GB/s SSD speeds, either.

The disillusionment is strong ITT atm...

Not with 5.5 GB/s SSD speeds, either.

The disillusionment is strong ITT atm...

With raw you can fill the RAM in 2.9 seconds and with compressed you can fill up the RAM in 1,7 seconds.

That is nowhere near instant but maybe it won't be noticeable because you don't need to flush the entire ram every single time.

At least that's what im understanding from the SSD tech.

 

[VanSiriusGabriel]

Gamer first, teacher second. And all students love me the most in school, and shout my name when they see me outside But you know, it was the last MGS ever, and that base mechanic was so addictive. My base was the number one in the world for like 2-3 weeks from launch.

Spoiler

 

[ethomaz]

Not with 5.5 GB/s SSD speeds, either.

The disillusionment is strong ITT atm...

Wut?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

With raw you can fill the RAM in 2.9 seconds and with compressed you can fill up the RAM in 1,7 seconds.

That is nowhere near instant but maybe it won't be noticeable because you don't need to flush the entire ram every single time.

At least that's what im understanding from the SSD tech.

Yes but that's still just loading-related. And there won't be cases where all games need all RAM contents filled up to maximum capacity at all times. In fact for anything other than loading entire programs into the RAM most developers optimize to shrink the amount of RAM they need at any given time, it's a common thing when optimizing performance for consoles.

That won't go away with the next-gen systems, especially considering they don't have that much in terms of physical RAM anyway.

But my main reason for posting that quote was to rib at enthomz for thinking PS5's SSD is somehow instant. It's faster, yes, but it isn't "instant" especially in comparison to volatile memories.

 

[ethomaz]

With traditional HDD the disk has to spin to the place where the data is. That's eliminated with the use of an SSD.

But assuming that 100GB is instantly available for use. That would mean a greater transfer rate than than 100GB/S to make that even possible. But the issue is that there are limits to the SSDs read speeds. So the 100GBs of data is actually limited to the read speed of the SSD. Which means that 100GB of data isn't instantly accessible.

That's why I'm confused by that comment.

I guess he meant all the data of the game (100GB) is available anytime devs needs it... that doesn’t mean it will instantaneous transferred from SSD to RAM.

100GB instantaneous is just misleading PR.

 

[Wandering Leopard]

That aside, comparing Gamepass to the Netflix model is somewhat odd. Netflix borrows funds and basically runs off of debt. The quality of their projects were questionable for the longest time but they seem to be stepping up on that front across the board.

AFAIK, MS isn't borrowing money from outside investors and running GP on a debt model.

It's definitely a multi-year strategy, we'll only find it it's worked by the end of next gen. Either way, I hope it pushes both Sony and Nintendo to also give more value to everyone that buys their consoles.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

But my main reason for posting that quote was to rib at enthomz for thinking PS5's SSD is somehow instant. It's faster, yes, but it isn't "instant" especially in comparison to volatile memories.

depending on the data ps5 can transfer up to 22GB/s, filling ram in under one second.

Games designed for quick loading like spiderman demo loaded in under 1 second.

 

[B_Boss]

So you want to play semantics with the meaning of the word support and backing? Well you can with someone else lol

Eaaaasy there killer. I was being genuine. I used the term to mean at least a couple things: wholeheartedly (cue his developers presentation), financially, the “whole ball of wax“ if you will. Not playing semantics but I definitely think it is great to define terms in discussion for sure.

 

[B_Boss]

It was really good, no? The Dual Sense reveal stop the internet.
I wanted to know if some TV show showed it in US.... I know they a lot of TVs showed the logo.

Well maybe others here have seen it but Sony (via Hulu) was advertising the FF7 Remake like crazy. It was awesome lol.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

depending on the data ps5 can transfer up to 22GB/s, filling ram in under one second.

Games designed for quick loading like spiderman demo loaded in under 1 second.

"Depending on the data" can mean use-cases of 30% or 5%, there's no way of telling right now. And if you have a design philosophy of keeping only what's truly needed in RAM, you don't need to worry about filling the RAM with data. That's something the XSX seems designed around and I assumed that was the case with PS5 as well but focusing on how fast the RAM can be filled would imply the opposite?

IIRC the Spiderman demo loaded a section of the game, not the entire game. SOD2 loading was the full game being loaded into memory.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

"Depending on the data" can mean use-cases of 30% or 5%, there's no way of telling right now. And if you have a design philosophy of keeping only what's truly needed in RAM, you don't need to worry about filling the RAM with data. That's something the XSX seems designed around and I assumed that was the case with PS5 as well but focusing on how fast the RAM can be filled would imply the opposite?

IIRC the Spiderman demo loaded a section of the game, not the entire game. SOD2 loading was the full game being loaded into memory.

The spiderman demo loaded into the game, obviously there is streaming. SOD2 was likely similar, but it likely wasn't optimized for series x. As far as I can see SOD2 game is likely larger than 16GB, and in any case there is likely no reason to load the entire game, only the area you're in.

 

[Games Dean]

What do you guys think?

Ryan McCaffery is, has been, and always will be a Microsoft fanboy/mouthpiece masquerading as an editor that comments objectively. The nice thing about Greg Miller and Colin Moriarty is that they never tried to act like they didn't have a bias towards Playstation and they don't try to twist everything to be pro-playstation. McCaffery seems incapable of doing the same.

When the DualSense got announced he posted something on Twitter and quickly deleted it - does anyone happen to know what he said?

I don't remember exactly what he said but he was giving the dualsense shit and hyping up the Xbox controller more or less. Pretty much baiting people.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

Yeah, skipped work for 2 days and got a salary cut penalty.

Sony is here to help, my friend:

Sony patents pet-like "feeling deduction" robot companion for gamers

"If the user is living an irregular life, the robot...may propose improvement of the life rhythm, for example, saying 'Let's go to bed soon".

Source:

Sony patents pet-like "feeling deduction" robot companion for gamers

Sony is working on - or, at the very least, has given sufficient thought to the matter to warrant a patent submission -…

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Neo Blaster]

How do you know they are losing money on Game Pass?

Well, they are not exactly open about service revenue, profit and subscribers.

 

[PaintTinJr]

"Depending on the data" can mean use-cases of 30% or 5%, there's no way of telling right now. And if you have a design philosophy of keeping only what's truly needed in RAM, you don't need to worry about filling the RAM with data. That's something the XSX seems designed around and I assumed that was the case with PS5 as well but focusing on how fast the RAM can be filled would imply the opposite?

IIRC the Spiderman demo loaded a section of the game, not the entire game. SOD2 loading was the full game being loaded into memory.

Why would you think that? The clipmap structure that underpins streaming technologies in game engines has been used for a longtime – spider-man on ps1 must have used it too. Enemy territory: Quake Wars’ megatexturing is a derivative technique..

The purpose of the clipmapping is to maximise memory utilisation while simultaneously maximizing the fidelity of the foreground, and keeping enough of the background in memory to maintain IQ while seamlessly changing the fidelity of the assets in memory as you move to constantly prioritise resources for the foreground. The clipmap structure scales around however much memory you have in your hardware. So if Spider-man loads in 1sec on PS5, then the available game memory to the engine will be full – even if you dropped foreground asset fidelity you’d just use the extra for holding a bigger background distance or better quality assets further into the background.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Gamepass follows the Silicon Valley model of losing as much money (investment) as possible while gaining as much market share(growth - subscriptions) as possible. That's what drives shareholders, as the market needs to speculate perpetual growth(share price needs to go up) or they won't keep making more and more money. It's the Netflix model folks, there's just no way Gamepass is making money(yet).

And this is why I think they need Xcloud to succeed, so they can tap the mobile market and expand the service.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I was curious about this...Tempest engine is capable of generic compute. Matrix multiplication doesn't care what it's multiplying for. Like an SPU of course, there's no cache, so it's only good for so much...But if studios had some SPU code lying around for accelerating certain functions that went unused in the 8th gen, we could see some novel uses of Tempest for non-Audio compute. Or more likely just write something new for it if a highly streamlined algorithm needs some help.

They say it's around 100Gflops which is nearly the entire SIMD capability of all of Jaguar in the PS4, that ain't nothing, if a dev isn't maxing out Tempest for audio may as well use it.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Where that money actually went is anyones guess.

Controller design?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Controller design?

The lower latency and the share button?

I don't think the share button was expensive to add but the lower latency feature I'm not sure about.

 

[DrKeo]

Wut?

I think you missing something here the 5.5GB/s is not the speed of the channels but the speed between the SSD and the I/O controller.

The rumors says that MS SSD is using faster NAND than needed between SSD and I/O controller (2.4GB/s).

Said that MS SSD can have 4 or 8 lanes but the number of modules is mostly like 8 x 1Tb.

12 x 512Gb = 12 x 64GiB = 768GiB = 825GB.

C’mon.

Now I know you have no ideia what are you talking about.

Sony choose 12 lanes because they can use small and slow NAND modules to reach 5.5GB/s.

You know 3D TLC NAND can have different speeds... for example Micron 512Gb have a range from 550MT/s to 1200MT/s.
800MT/s with 12 channels (lanes) provides about 7.5GB/s sequential read speeds.
So Sony doesn’t need to use a 800MT/s NAND but can go cheaper with just 550MT/s and archive 5.5GB/s.

About MS is a bit more trick because they 1Tb 3D TLC NAND starts at 667MT/s... so there is no cheaper 550MT/s modules.
Same about 2Tb modules... maybe it starts at 800MT/s.

See now? Even if MS SSD is capped at 2.4GB/s to reach 1TB they will need bigger density modules that are indeed faster than what Sony needs.

MS had two options:

8 x 1Tb 667MT/s
4 x 2Tb 800MT/s

In any case the NAND chips provides more speeds than MS needs.

I actually never seen all the TCL modules available from every company so I can't really know if they exist or not, but Micron's website only shows 667MT/s and higher TLC NAND, in all sizes. They do have 533MT/s modules, but only MLC NAND which I doubt Sony will use. Do you have a link to the story about MS using both faster and (obviously) bigger NAND modules? I haven't seen it yet.

Considering controllers never achieve the theoretical NAND MT/s numbers, 533MT/s is probably too low for announcing your SSD has a 5.5GB/s raw throughput. If I had to bet, I would bet on Sony using 667MT/s per channel.

No.

Not this again - you can't get 932 GiB chips they come in binary multiplies of 2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024 etc.

Xbox's 1TB is 1024GB (binary) - 1099GB decimal

Some manufacturer's quote free space, others quote total space. Sometimes they use decimal

But usually they use binary - eg a 320GB SSD is 20 x 16GB chips , "500GB" SSD is actually 512GB (2x8x256Gb binary) and so on

Why then, I have a Samsung 850 EVO that is 250 GB and on Windows is reported as 232.8 GiB???

That's after the data structures used to manage wear levelling been added to the SSD memory. It's just like how the directory listing takes up space on a old HDD, except it uses more memory, and is invisible (just like how my 64GB sd card only has 59GB after formatting even though it's empty)

eg https://www.anandtech.com/show/8747/samsung-ssd-850-evo-review/2 this version of the Samsung EVO SSD actually has 16 x 128 Gbit dies = 256GByte .. Samsung call their wear levelling structures "overprovisioning" ..

..both PS5 and Series X SSDs will be "overprovisioned" too - os both will have less than the stated amount available to store games.

[edit - if you right click on the drive in windows and select properties - it shows the exact amount of available data in bytes - that number doesn't lie (but doesn't include the "overprovisioning") ]

Most storage manufacturers use GB, most OS (including console) report storage in GiB.
1TB on the box -> 931.323GiB in OS.
250GB on the box -> 232.831GiB in OS (just like M MisterXDTV has on his SSD).
64GB on the box -> 59.6046GiB in OS (just like your camera SD card).
6TB on the box -> 5.45697GiB in OS (just like my 6TB storage drive).

 

[ethomaz]

I actually never seen all the TCL modules available from every company so I can't really know if they exist or not, but Micron's website only shows 667MT/s and higher TLC NAND, in all sizes. They do have 533MT/s modules, but only MLC NAND which I doubt Sony will use. Do you have a link to the story about MS using both faster and (obviously) bigger NAND modules? I haven't seen it yet.

Considering controllers never achieve the theoretical NAND MT/s numbers, 533MT/s is probably too low for announcing your SSD has a 5.5GB/s raw throughput. If I had to bet, I would bet on Sony using 667MT/s per channel.

All Micron 3D NAND 512Gb.
https://www.micron.com/products/nan...2Gb&Id={826DD0CE-31A2-43CD-AA36-E65D0DB21D31}
533 to 1200MT/s

Tou are right 533MT/s is MLC... the others are TLC.

Here you can choose up to 8Tb modules and see the catalog: https://www.micron.com/products/nand-flash/3d-nand

 

[Neo Blaster]

The lower latency and the share button?

I don't think the share button was expensive to add but the lower latency feature I'm not sure about.

I was just kidding, man, was referring to the plethora of Xbox One controllers announced.

 

[SonGoku]

Sony has all the custom I/O (5.5GB/s controller, coherency engine, ram modules for caches, sram caches, DMA blocks, Kraken decompressors etc), a more custom GPU (with cache scrubbers and probably more things), an advanced variable clocks solution, a more expensive cooling, USB-C port, custom Tempest CU, high tech controller etc.

This is a one time cost included in the R&D budget
Most of what you listed resides inside the APU which will be cheaper to manufacture due to being smaller

More SSD Nand modules (but not that much more) but they use a slow and cheap SSD controller (and without caches).

One time cost designing the memory controller which may not be more expensive to manufacture

 

[MasterCornholio]

I was just kidding, man, was referring to the plethora of Xbox One controllers announced.

My bad I thought you were talking about the Series X controller.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Our favourite fake insider with some cough *real* cough information.

Jokes aside, there are a lot of reasonable and informed guesses/predictions which we can make on the PS5's reveal and other stuff including features and sales. The problem is the fake insiders pass it off as if they have some sort of inside information or source. The 10.3 TF reveal really helped smoke out a lot of "insiders" IMO.

 

[SonGoku]

But assuming that 100GB is instantly available for use. That would mean a greater transfer rate than than 100GB/S to make that even possible

I think a fair metric for defining whether or not 100GB is instantly available is if the SSD can fill available ram (13.5GBs in this case) in one second but even then there'll be content in ram that doesn't need to be swapped as often

 

[Tripolygon]

I actually never seen all the TCL modules available from every company so I can't really know if they exist or not, but Micron's website only shows 667MT/s and higher TLC NAND, in all sizes. They do have 533MT/s modules, but only MLC NAND which I doubt Sony will use. Do you have a link to the story about MS using both faster and (obviously) bigger NAND modules? I haven't seen it yet.

There are 3-bit MLC which are the same as TLC.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Our favourite fake insider with some cough *real* cough information.

Jokes aside, there are a lot of reasonable and informed guesses/predictions which we can make on the PS5's reveal and other stuff including features and sales. The problem is the fake insiders pass it off as if they have some sort of inside information or source. The 10.3 TF reveal really helped smoke out a lot of "insiders" IMO.

Ok now we know nothing related to PS5 will happen in may.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I think a fair metric for defining whether or not 100GB is instantly available is if the SSD can fill available ram (13.5GBs in this case) in one second but even then there'll be content in ram that doesn't need to be swapped as often

I agree there. In the best case scenario (assuming the data is compressed) the series X would be able to fill the RAM in 3.33 seconds while the PS5 would be able to fill it in 1.7 seconds. Neither of them is going to be able to fill the RAM in under a second.

But like you said the devs don't need to replace 16GBs of data every single time. So maybe with a smaller data replacement we can reach load times of under a second for said data.

Let's assume the data that needs to be replaced is 4GBs. In that case the Series X could do that in 0.83 seconds and the PS5 could do it in 0.44 seconds.

 

[SonGoku]

Controller design?

You joke but they allegedly spent $100 million in the xb1 controller r&d
MS used to throw $500 million like its nothing on marketing for specific products

 

[Trueblakjedi]

In that case: Does anyone know if MS is to communicate XSX-Sales like Sony and Nintendo do?
Otherwise it might be a hassel to compare PS5 and XSX sales...

Sony used to report sales as "manufactured and an in the warehouse" as opposed to "sold to the retailer".

Do they still do that?

 

[ethomaz]

Sony used to report sales as "manufactured and an in the warehouse" as opposed to "sold to the retailer".

Do they still do that?

They stopped from FY2006 (April 2006).
Sell-in (sold to retailers) are way more accurate... that is why they changed.

Edit - Fixed to the years to be accurate.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

They stopped from 2006 to 2007.
Sell-in (sold to retailers) are way more accurate... that is why they changed.

They changed because Wii sold like crazy blowing away Xbox and PS3 in those early years.

What Sony also did at that time is add up PS2, PS3 and PSP sales into "the Sony family of products which sells more than Wii". Conveniently, they excluded any Nintendo handheld sales which I think were even more than Wii.

 

[ethomaz]

They changed because Wii sold like crazy blowing away Xbox and PS3 in those early years.

What Sony also did at that time is add up PS2, PS3 and PSP sales into "the Sony family of products which sells more than Wii". Conveniently, they excluded any Nintendo handheld sales which I think were even more than Wii.

?

The change happened for PS2 before PS3 and Wii launch.

I forget to say it was from FY2006 the change... that is why I said 2006 to 2007 (April 2006 to March 2007).

From April 2006 all reports are sell-in (sold to retailers).

 

[DaGwaphics]

Here you can choose up to 8Tb modules and see the catalog: https://www.micron.com/products/nand-flash/3d-nand

That must have been the high capacity modules I read about before.

 

[Games Dean]

I'll be interested to see who has their big reveal first. Last gen Sony had the advantage of going 2nd just because they always have the Monday night E3 slot.

I'll be interested to see if Microsoft takes this opportunity to wait as long as they can and hope Sony pulls the trigger first. It might lead to a standoff that pushes back both reveals to the end of the May.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Soon we might be able to add PC.

There was this one:

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Let's cut it short to facts:

Xbox Series X (11sec) vs Xbox One X (51sec): State of Decay 2. Difference is only 4.6x.




PS5 pre-devkit state (1 year ago, 0.8sec) vs PS4 Pro (8sec): Spider-man. Difference is 10x, with WIRED reporting 0.8 vs 15sec on another test (18x), questioning the 0.8sec being due to other stuff happening inside the system before loading. Plus it's reported to be a slower version. No need to take all that talk as anything, just pay attention to actual videos we can see:




Until we see further proof in the future, we better stick to actual, visible evidence.

 

[SgtCaffran]

And don't forget. Sony has actually claimed a 100x improvement for PS5 games compared to PS4 (available streaming rate).

So even 18x is most likely very conservative.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

And don't forget. Sony has actually claimed a 100x improvement for PS5 games compared to PS4 (available streaming rate).

So even 18x is most likely very conservative.

I'm not sure, but I'm really not believing 100x until I see it. If load times are non-existent, then it's probably it or it's beyond measuring.

 

[3liteDragon]

I'll be interested to see who has their big reveal first. Last gen Sony had the advantage of going 2nd just because they always have the Monday night E3 slot.

I'll be interested to see if Microsoft takes this opportunity to wait as long as they can and hope Sony pulls the trigger first. It might lead to a standoff that pushes back both reveals to the end of the May.

I still think Microsoft will go first, plus, there’s been multiple rumours now pointing towards a proper digital hardware reveal for the Series X with a few games showcased. Then that planned E3 digital event in June, focusing completely on games only. I think Lockhart will be revealed during the rumoured early-May digital event, as well as the PS5 console design and teardown (early-May).

 

[sinnergy]

Let's cut it short to facts:

Xbox Series X (11sec) vs Xbox One X (51sec): State of Decay 2. Difference is only 4.6x.




PS5 pre-devkit state (1 year ago, 0.8sec) vs PS4 Pro (8sec): Spider-man. Difference is 10x, with WIRED reporting 0.8 vs 15sec on another test (18x), questioning the 0.8sec being due to other stuff happening inside the system before loading. Plus it's reported to be a slower version. No need to take all that talk as anything, just pay attention to actual videos we can see:




Until we see further proof in the future, we better stick to actual, visible evidence.

True : here you see same speed as Series x, Cerny talk, 7.37. Later he mentions they got it at 5.5. Series X at 6 GBs.

 

[hardseppo]

Gamepass is the best deal in gaming right now. How anyone can downplay that or be "concerned" is beyond me. I wouldn't have tried a few games if it wasn't for gamepass. Latest being Nier Automata. And on April 30, Streets of Rage 4 will be in Gamepass as well, on day one.

Gamepass is a win for gamers.

 

[DrKeo]

There are 3-bit MLC which are the same as TLC.

The M in MLC stands for multi-bit, so in theory 4-bit and higher can also be called MLC. But the industry standard ever since 3-bit became available is using MLC to describe 2-bit while TLC is used for 3-bit in order to avoid confusion.

Let's cut it short to facts:

Xbox Series X (11sec) vs Xbox One X (51sec): State of Decay 2. Difference is only 4.6x.




PS5 pre-devkit state (1 year ago, 0.8sec) vs PS4 Pro (8sec): Spider-man. Difference is 10x, with WIRED reporting 0.8 vs 15sec on another test (18x), questioning the 0.8sec being due to other stuff happening inside the system before loading. Plus it's reported to be a slower version. No need to take all that talk as anything, just pay attention to actual videos we can see:




Until we see further proof in the future, we better stick to actual, visible evidence.

I wouldn’t take that at face value. The Spider-man demo was crafted for PS5 in order to demonstrate the SSD while BC titles just run on the next-gen consoles as is. If you think BloodBorn will load on PS5 (without a PS5 patch), you will be disappointed

 

[Bo_Hazem]

True : here you see same speed as Series x, Cerny talk, 7.37. Later he mentions they got it at 5.5. Series X at 6 GBs.

You seem to be not following the speculation thread carefully. That's the raw speed, some aspects may end up (uncompresssble) and get sent as they are. With SSD being 5.5GB/s RAW, some factors may happen and make it go at least 5GB/s. To ease up your search:

PS5: 5.5GB/s RAW, 8-9GB/s compressed, with up to 22GB/s.
XSX: 2.4GB/s RAW, 4.8GB/s compressed, with up to 6GB/s.

I hope that helps comprehending what you're seeing there, you may as well listen carefully to the whole SSD talk. Bear in mind that those numbers don't factor in other parts and bottlenecks that lessen the overall speed.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I wouldn’t take that at face value. The Spider-man demo was crafted for PS5 in order to demonstrate the SSD while BC titles just run on the next-gen consoles as is. If you think BloodBorn will load on PS5 (without a PS5 patch), you will be disappointed

I'm not taking it as final, but it is what we have "so far" as solid evidence. Sony can't gamble with lying there as it's out in the wild, for Spider-man at least.

 

[Aceofspades]

True : here you see same speed as Series x, Cerny talk, 7.37. Later he mentions they got it at 5.5. Series X at 6 GBs.

Stop spreading misinformation my friend.