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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
Exodia said:
Its atleast 20% better than Kraken

PS5

Its unique to MS and perfectly facilitates Nanite.



Not according to benchmarks from Digital Foundry and other publications.
But specifically for Nanite which we are currently talking about. The demo is compute bound. So it disproportionately favours wide GPUs (XSX) over narrow (PS5). Compute shaders are no longer augmenting the FF pipeline, they are doing all the work. This will benefit wide (XSX) over clockrate (PS5).



I'm not talking about lumen. I'm talking about Nanite compute shader algorithms that crunches billions of polygons into 20 million triangles and then attempts to draw them.
That scales with compute. XSX higher CUs is huge in those calculations happening in the compute shader. That means nanite algorithm will be faster on XSX regardless of the situation of SDD/I-O



Xbox One frequency was bumped and they had a regular cooling solution and nothing crazy like XSX gosh damn tower.
Secondly the bump happened in August. We are currently in May. The bump was 6%. If they did the same thing. It would bring them to 12.9
There's absolutely no way they are not bumping it atleast .5+ TFLOP. Especially with the variable boost clock of PS5 which no one expected. I'm pretty sure they expected PS5 to be 9 TFLOPs which was why they were so confident.

I'm sure they tested XSX running at different clock speeds besides their target speed just in case.

source.gif
Click to expand...

I would like to take advantage of your response to make a general appeal. It is very important that you do not take this quote as an answer to your points, but as a general idea of the situation. It is not so much about being right but about exposing some facts.

I would also like to point out that, as the following is a complex expression text, it is possible that some errors have been made in the translation with everyday expressions in my language but that they may not have a direct translation in English, or that some examples are not understood from the everything. In that case my sincere apologies. Let us begin.

Every opinion is respectable, but not every opinion is valid.

PS5 doesn't need more than what it has.

XSX is an extraordinary system. Within the traditional workflow system it is the best home system created so far.

PS5 is not traditional. It is the first and only of its kind. It may go well or it may go wrong, time will tell, but it certainly is not comparable. It is as if you wanted to compare an electric car and a gasoline car. Yes, there are things that you can use to generate a debate, such as speed in KMH or MPH. But it will be an inconsequential debate. The basis of both is to achieve a displacement, but it is achieved in different ways and with different mechanisms.

Attempts are being made (too many times) to defend absurd comparisons. I am going to give a very exaggerated example, but so that the idea is understood:

XSX may already have the best oil tank, filters, carb, spark plugs, combustion engine, or timing belt, but it does because you should have it, because it is necessary to get better performance with that type of vehicle. But PS5 does not need all those things, it is an electric car. PS5 does not need BcPack. With Kraken (by the way, improved version for PS5) you have enough for what your system can offer. The purpose is to make both PS5 and XSX reach 300KMH. That XSX surely reaches that figure better in the traditional way? Undoubtedly, for sure. But PS5 is not traditional.

Starting from this exaggerated example it is necessary to qualify that yes, that both systems have things in common that are comparable and debatable, such as wheels, windows, transmission axles, etc ... And that can undoubtedly affect the final performance. , but we would be talking about elements that perhaps do not exceed 25% of the total system. We will see if they end up affecting or not.

For example, PS5 is a system that has an SSD that can make RAM dispensable for certain processes, so what are you doing wasting time comparing the different RAM of different systems? Can't you see you're wasting your time?

Other examples, XSX gets extra space by compressing data. Perfect, one way to approach a problem. PS5 uses the SSD to send data directly without going through RAM, so RAM will have more free space for other things. Perfect, another way to approach the same problem (I don't know if you understand what I mean to say). Comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same?

What remains to be seen is whether PS5 is capable of delivering the same results as XSX by addressing the same issues differently. Therefore, the effective discussion should be reduced to whether this new content creation system (PS5) is more effective than the traditional one and if it is capable of offering a visual finish (and with optimal performance) that is comparatively identical or better than that of the systems. traditional. If the answer is "yes", it will not matter how it is achieved. It does not matter if one uses BcPack and another Kraken, or one 10GB of RAM and another 16GB. If the result shown on TV is the same in both XSX and PS5 (or higher in the latter) then Sony will have won, and the industry / developers too, as it will mean that a new way of creating content has been successful. That is to say, it will have managed to establish as "valid" the technology of the electric car in the automotive industry, then it will only be missing that with the years (or decades) the industry will programmatically migrate from the traditional system to the new one. Will that mean XSX results are bad? No. What is really being tested here is the "creation system", not the power itself. XSX will continue to offer the best results in the traditional style. And that doesn't mean PS5 can't deliver the same (or better) results with the new system. In the same way, surely there will be things that PS5 will do worse. Or things that were believed to be better and that are eventually discovered that do not work as well. It will be seen in time.

By the way, I don't want to be politically incorrect with some indirect colleagues in the sector, but Digital Foundry lives on comparisons. Which is fine. And with this, very interesting debates are generated. You can even generate a more logical or less debate, but I would not dare to say that its conclusion is the most appropriate in this circumstance. Since it could happen that one has to retract some unlucky words more times than one would like (as is already happening). Also note that it doesn't only matter what a number says, but what your eye perceives. Because here there is a lot of bionic eye detecting pixels in static images but also many of them wear glasses and in the end they have to end up playing on their sofa 2 meters from the TV. I understand this purism more for the pixels in those PC players who have a monitor that is sharper than their TV and at a much shorter distance (probably 60cm). But come on, I think that currently nobody is going to cut their veins by a few pixels more or less.

Sony is not looking to be "just" the best console, it is already on top, the PlayStation brand needs no advertising, Sony is in a situation where it can afford to "test" with innovative systems, and can afford to fail. In this case looking to improve the content creation system trying to maintain or improve the final qualities. MCerny is a developer who has designed 2 consoles with the intention of making developers' lives easier, since (intelligently) he knows that if the developer is happy and the creation system is simple, then consequently the developer will want to work with that system and therefore both the console will have more content and variety worldwide. And it is what is happening. It started to happen with PS4 and I think it will continue to happen with PS5. And this shouldn't confront people or anger anyone. Competitiveness is necessary to improve, and the result is that the user will always be the beneficiary. In addition, MCerny has enough experience behind him in various sectors to have earned the benefit of waiting to see what happens in order to judge properly. On the other hand, I understand that in forums there is a need to know everything "NOW". But these companies always make "investments" with long-term "results".

Whether or not PS5 will make it, or whether that system will catch on in the industry or not, only time will tell.

And the answer to the question will be known with the years and the results, and NOT with the theoretical numbers.

So, comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same? The ease of creation is the same? Can you do without certain things without affecting the final quality? Does the possible work system compensate based on the result obtained? We will see. My opinion is that it does compensate, amply. Although I know that there are people concerned about whether this affects their jobs. Although my opinion is again that I do not think it affects, let's be positive.

EDIT: Depuration of different translation errors and content duplication.
 
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xacto

xacto

Member
dan_of_orion said:
Tim Sweeney on the PS5:

"See the coverage of Mark Cerny's talk for technical details. The software and hardware stack go to great lengths to minimise latency and maximize the bandwidth that's actually accessible by games. On PC, there's a lot of layering and overhead."

Mark Cerny on the objectives of the PS5's SSD solution:

“What if the SSD is so fast, that as the player is turning around it’s possible to load textures within that split second”

VP of engineering at EpicGames:

"Nanite allowed the artists to build a scene with geometric complexity that would have been impossible before, there are tens of billions of triangles in that scene and we couldn't simply have them all in memory at once and what we end up needing to do is streaming in triangles as the camera moves around the environment and the I/O capabilities of the PS5 are what allow us to achieve that level of realism."

A real game engine developer who had no knowledge of the PS5 specs when viewing the UE5 tech demo:

"Just having to sort through all this data, I'm sure this demo is like hundreds of gigabytes , because there is so much texturing, so much triangles, so just reading that data, it's interesting to look at the PS5 architecture, I'm sure a lot of this is being streamed in from disk (SSD), every frame, that SSD has to be blazingly fast, that relationship between disk and VRAM, has to be really tight and think it has to be specific to this architecture"

This is the last time I'll talk about the UE5 tech demo running on the PS5, here is a compilation of quotes with the some of the most credible sources on the I/O and SSD of the PS5 in relation to the UE5 tech demo.
Click to expand...

But why should we listen to engineers, developers, people that actually know what they're talking about when we can have our own breed of armchair connoisseurs in all things hardware and software?

Why give credibility to people who do this for a living in successful companies in this very specific field, when we can copy/paste retarded theories from well known Twitter dweebs on both sides of the fence? Why not listen to people who have internal and external meltdowns while bathing in their own fantasies about a plastic box over a different plastic box on some random forums, right?

I agree it's sometimes fun to see outlandish theories thrown around in here for a good laugh, but some people in here are really, really sad cases of frustration over broken promises. Fine by me, whatever floats your boat, I say, but do prepare; for some of you, your promised future isn't as bright as you've been led to believe.
 
MasterCornholio

MasterCornholio

Member
ToadMan said:
For Xsex, everything outside the 100gb will have to be paged into the 100gb for Direct access
Click to expand...

That sounds like a pretty big hit to performance in comparison to being able to access everything on the drive at once. Just moving there data to the 100GB is going to take some resources. It certainly isn't as efficient as what Sony is doing.

Also I was confused about the Velocity Architecture 100GBs and you explained that to me extremely well. Thank you as I was confused about it for the longest time.
 
Thirty7ven

Thirty7ven

Banned
BGs said:
[...]PS5 is not traditional. It is the first and only of its kind. It may go well or it may go wrong, time will tell, but it certainly is not comparable. It is as if you wanted to compare an electric car and a gasoline car. Yes, there are things that you can use to generate a debate, such as speed in KMH or MPH. But it will be an inconsequential debate. The basis of both is to achieve a displacement, but it is achieved in different ways and with different mechanisms.

[...]
Click to expand...


In the words of Liza Shu and Andrea Pessino, PS5 is going for revolution.
 
BadBreathOfTheWild

BadBreathOfTheWild

Banned
MasterCornholio said:
That sounds like a pretty big hit to performance in comparison to being able to access everything on the drive at once. Just moving there data to the 100GB is going to take some resources. It certainly isn't as efficient as what Sony is doing.

Also I was confused about the Velocity Architecture 100GBs and you explained that to me extremely well. Thank you as I was confused about it for the longest time.
Click to expand...

Is this limited 100GB of directly addressable SSD area actually confirmed, or just armchair deduction? Surely that would put some wear on the drive? Reading won’t, but having to make a copy and write first every time will.

I was trying to understand what “100GB made instantly available” meant, too.
On PS5 the entire drive is made instantly available via a DMAC. Likely with less latency, too. Why wouldn’t Microsoft do the same instead of that complicated and convoluted route?
 
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pasterpl

pasterpl

Member
Thirty7ven said:
In the words of Liza Shu and Andrea Pessino, PS5 is going for revolution.
Click to expand...

don’t forget about what AMD said

“The Xbox Series X is going to be a beacon of technical innovation leadership for this console generation and will propagate the innovation throughout the DirectX ecosystem this year and into next year.”

just showing that lots of this is partners marketing talk that needs to be taken with a bit of salt
 
Thirty7ven

Thirty7ven

Banned
pasterpl said:
don’t forget about what AMD said

“The Xbox Series X is going to be a beacon of technical innovation leadership for this console generation and will propagate the innovation throughout the DirectX ecosystem this year and into next year.”

just showing that lots of this is partners marketing talk that needs to be taken with a bit of salt
Click to expand...

I'm not forgetting at all.

Liza Shu refers to the XSX as innovation and PS5 as revolution. These are the words she picked, and they are both complimentary.

And they do match what BGs is saying, and what Andrea Pessino is saying. I will take the words of engineers over the words of bottom of the barrel youtube celebrities I will tell you that much.

Again I must stress I believe the XSX to be cutting edge console hardware. It's not a Xbox One.
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild

BadBreathOfTheWild

Banned
BGs said:
I would like to take advantage of your response to make a general appeal. It is very important that you do not take this quote as an answer to your points, but as a general idea of the situation. It is not so much about being right but about exposing some facts.

I would also like to point out that, as the following is a complex expression text, it is possible that some errors have been made in the translation with everyday expressions in my language but that they may not have a direct translation in English, or that some examples are not understood from the everything. In that case my sincere apologies. Let us begin.

Every opinion is respectable, but not every opinion is valid.

PS5 doesn't need more than what it has.

XSX is an extraordinary system. Within the traditional workflow system it is the best home system created so far.

PS5 is not traditional. It is the first and only of its kind. It may go well or it may go wrong, time will tell, but it certainly is not comparable. It is as if you wanted to compare an electric car and a gasoline car. Yes, there are things that you can use to generate a debate, such as speed in KMH or MPH. But it will be an inconsequential debate. The basis of both is to achieve a displacement, but it is achieved in different ways and with different mechanisms.

Attempts are being made (too many times) to defend absurd comparisons. I am going to give a very exaggerated example, but so that the idea is understood:

XSX may already have the best oil tank, filters, carb, spark plugs, combustion engine, or timing belt, but it does because you should have it, because it is necessary to get better performance with that type of vehicle. But PS5 does not need all those things, it is an electric car. PS5 does not need BcPack. With Kraken (by the way, improved version for PS5) you have enough for what your system can offer. The purpose is to make both PS5 and XSX reach 300KMH. That XSX surely reaches that figure better in the traditional way? Undoubtedly, for sure. But PS5 is not traditional.

Starting from this exaggerated example it is necessary to qualify that yes, that both systems have things in common that are comparable and debatable, such as wheels, windows, transmission axles, etc ... And that can undoubtedly affect the final performance. , but we would be talking about elements that perhaps do not exceed 25% of the total system. We will see if they end up affecting or not.

For example, PS5 is a system that has an SSD that can make RAM dispensable for certain processes, so what are you doing wasting time comparing the different RAM of different systems? Can't you see you're wasting your time?

Other examples, XSX gets extra space by compressing data. Perfect, one way to approach a problem. PS5 uses the SSD to send data directly without going through RAM, so RAM will have more free space for other things. Perfect, another way to approach the same problem (I don't know if you understand what I mean to say). Comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same?

What remains to be seen is whether PS5 is capable of delivering the same results as XSX by addressing the same issues differently. Therefore, the effective discussion should be reduced to whether this new content creation system (PS5) is more effective than the traditional one and if it is capable of offering a visual finish (and with optimal performance) that is comparatively identical or better than that of the systems. traditional. If the answer is "yes", it will not matter how it is achieved. It does not matter if one uses BcPack and another Kraken, or one 10GB of RAM and another 16GB. If the result shown on TV is the same in both XSX and PS5 (or higher in the latter) then Sony will have won, and the industry / developers too, as it will mean that a new way of creating content has been successful. That is to say, it will have managed to establish as "valid" the technology of the electric car, then it will only be missing that over the years (or decades) the industry will gradually migrate from the traditional system to the new one. Will that mean XSX results are bad? No. What is really being tested here is the "creation system". XSX will continue to offer the best results in the traditional style.

By the way, Digital Foundry lives by generating debate, and that is very good, but you have to know (when you inform yourself) what you are reading and in what context, otherwise it may happen that you have to retract your words more than you one would want.

Sony is not looking to be "only" the best console, Sony is looking to improve the content creation system, facilitating the process but trying to maintain or improve the qualities. MCerny is a developer who has designed 2 consoles with the intention of making developers' lives easier, since (intelligently) he knows that if the developer is happy and the creation system is simple, then consequently the developer will want to work with that system and therefore both the console will have more content and variety worldwide. And it is what is happening. It started to happen with PS4 and I think it will continue to happen with PS5. And this shouldn't confront people or anger anyone. Competitiveness is necessary to improve, and the result is that the user will always be the beneficiary.

Whether or not PS5 will make it, or whether that system will catch on in the industry or not, only time will tell.

And the answer to the question will be known with the years and the results, and NOT with the theoretical numbers.

Other examples, XSX gets extra space by compressing data. Perfect, one way to approach a problem. PS5 uses the SSD to send data directly without going through RAM, so RAM will have more free space for other things. Perfect, another way to approach the same problem (I don't know if you understand what I mean to say).

What remains to be seen is whether PS5 is capable of delivering the same results as XSX by addressing the same issues differently. Therefore, the effective discussion should be reduced to whether this new content creation system (PS5) is more effective than the traditional one and if it is capable of offering a visual finish (and with optimal performance) that is comparatively identical or better than that of the systems. traditional. If the answer is "yes", it will not matter how it is achieved. It does not matter if one uses BcPack and another Kraken, or one 10GB of RAM and another 16GB. If the result shown on TV is the same in both XSX and PS5 (or higher in the latter) then Sony will have won, and the industry / developers too, as it will mean that a new way of creating content has been successful. That is to say, it will have managed to establish as "valid" the technology of the electric car in the automotive industry, then it will only be missing that with the years (or decades) the industry will programmatically migrate from the traditional system to the new one. Will that mean XSX results are bad? No. What is really being tested here is the "creation system", not the power itself. XSX will continue to offer the best results in the traditional style. And that doesn't mean PS5 can't deliver the same (or better) results with the new system. In the same way, surely there will be things that PS5 will do worse. Or things that were believed to be better and that are eventually discovered that do not work as well. It will be seen in time.

By the way, I don't want to be politically incorrect with some indirect colleagues in the sector, but Digital Foundry lives on comparisons. Which is fine. And with this, very interesting debates are generated. You can even generate a more logical or less debate, but I would not dare to say that its conclusion is the most appropriate in this circumstance. Since it could happen that one has to retract some unlucky words more times than one would like (as is already happening). Also note that it doesn't only matter what a number says, but what your eye perceives. Because here there is a lot of bionic eye detecting pixels in static images but also many of them wear glasses and in the end they have to end up playing on their sofa 2 meters from the TV. I understand this purism more for the pixels in those PC players who have a monitor that is sharper than their TV and at a much shorter distance (probably 60cm). But come on, I think that currently nobody is going to cut their veins by a few pixels more or less.

Sony is not looking to be "just" the best console, it is already on top, the PlayStation brand needs no advertising, Sony is in a situation where it can afford to "test" with innovative systems, and can afford to fail. In this case looking to improve the content creation system trying to maintain or improve the final qualities. MCerny is a developer who has designed 2 consoles with the intention of making developers' lives easier, since (intelligently) he knows that if the developer is happy and the creation system is simple, then consequently the developer will want to work with that system and therefore both the console will have more content and variety worldwide. And it is what is happening. It started to happen with PS4 and I think it will continue to happen with PS5. And this shouldn't confront people or anger anyone. Competitiveness is necessary to improve, and the result is that the user will always be the beneficiary. In addition, MCerny has enough experience behind him in various sectors to have earned the benefit of waiting to see what happens in order to judge properly. On the other hand, I understand that in forums there is a need to know everything "NOW". But these companies always make "investments" with long-term "results".

Whether or not PS5 will make it, or whether that system will catch on in the industry or not, only time will tell.

And the answer to the question will be known with the years and the results, and NOT with the theoretical numbers.

So, comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same? The ease of creation is the same? Can you do without certain things without affecting the final quality? Does the possible work system compensate based on the result obtained? We will see. My opinion is that it does compensate, amply. Although I know that there are people concerned about whether this affects their jobs. Although my opinion is again that I do not think it affects, let's be positive.
Click to expand...

What Microsoft has gone for is tried and tested, and the workflow will be familiar to people in the industry. This is good for XSX.


What is it about PS5’s architecture and tool-kit that has you or other’s in the industry excited? Can you give examples of ideas (or Dreams, as Cerny used) it now makes possible? How does it help you or your colleagues?

Or is it as simple as less tedious work needs to be done which allows resources to be used to add new features or depth elsewhere?
 
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Audiophile

Audiophile

Member
Bo_Hazem said:
I'm not sure, guys, I want solid evidence from Epic Games that this isn't native 4K. It's probably the 8K assets deceiving me, but my vision, thank God, is pretty sharp. If put side by side with so-called 4K of the same spot, maybe, but that haze is in the game. I can see some artifacts (around the main character, bats, and some areas related to LUMEN) here and there but overall it's extremely sharp at 4K.

My screenshots: (better do them as static as possible because any slight movement adds blur)

149000.jpg


149001.jpg


149002.jpg


149003.jpg


149004.jpg


Who the fuck is saying this is not 4K? Especially 1440p which is way off 4K!

"I noticed it isn’t running in native 4k, as per Digital Foundry. It looked great but I found this odd. Especially for a tech demo. The Xbox Series X has more teraflops but I’m not sure it has enough to run this demo at 4K. I was expecting all games to run at 4K on next gen consoles. Didn’t people make a fuss when the Xbox 360 didn’t run games at 1080p? Well we will see in the coming months but maybe these aren’t 4K boxes after all."

metro.co.uk

Games Inbox: Do you believe the Unreal Engine 5 demo is real?

The Friday Inbox debates whether the Unreal Engine 5 demo on PS5 is real footage or not, as one reader enjoys Disgaea 4.
metro.co.uk metro.co.uk

Well, Digital Fuckery doing the usual. I think they got confused by the artifacts caused by GI software based ray tracing, but no way this is not native 4K or close to it. I made those screenshots as some uploaded some non-4K screenshots that might confuse the rest. You need a 4K TV or monitor to extract 4K screenshots. Now, with any screen you can zoom in and tell by yourself.

By the way, I uploaded once a 3.7GB of 5 minutes gets compressed to only 150MB on Youtube! And that's talking about 8-bit ~100MB bitrate not 10-bit or raw 12-bit. This video is around 980MB, and it's quite dense, so I can say that it should be around 23.5GB if it was 8-Bit, which is not, it's 10-bit or higher, 12-bit. You can see how heavily it's been compressed.
Click to expand...

Epic said it's running 1440p most of the time; I expect this is the bottom end of a dynamic resolution scale. However, it's using their excellent TAAU reconstruction to bring it up to 4K just like they do with Gears 5.

This comes with one caveat which is temporal artifacts, stability is very good in this case due to the ~1:1 pixel:triangle target, but there's visual artifacting and a trailing on falling rocks, birds, bats and some parts of the last part of the demo where the character and camera are moving fast. Basically any fast moving elements can look a little crispy and noisy.

Watch the full res stream on a decent sized TV (preferably the Vimeo 4K one) and it's probably the one aspect of the demo that can take away a little from the otherwise gorgeous presentation. Check the bats flying up into the sky as the character exits the crevice, they look extremely rough. Fast moving objects + high contrast...

When DF are talking about being unable to pixel count it's likely because the geometric detail is subpixel level, so they don't have a common reference between pixels in a given segment of the image. I expect TAAU on top of this then makes it harder.

If they can get this level of quality at 60fps, they will be able to cut those temporal artifacts in half and further increase the quality of the end result due to the effective doubling of samples (frames) by which reconstruction derives its result.. Not to mention that reconstruction techniques are advancing at a crazy rate and with optimisation in general and on a per-title basis, the end result and artifacting will likely be even better in actual games.

A slight digression, but 60fps will also help Lumen or similar GI solutions, as they use temporal accumulation to derive light bounces over a few frames causing a slight lag/latency between the initial bounce and the rest. (I believe you alluded to this).


While I think 1440p is still a little on the low side and that 1620p-1800p is probably the sweet spot for a dynamic res scale + non-checkerboard reconstruction. Keeping at 1440p and pushing for 60fps wherever possible may make more sense in many cases. -- (I'd categorically say that going above 1800p in almost any circumstance is a waste of resources and totally pointless, it takes an extra 40% GPU power too get to 2160p from 1800p and the difference is practically invisible, especially with decent reconstruction). --

As mentioned above, 60fps increases the samples by which the reconstructed image is derived, meaning higher quality image and less artifacting (not to mention other temporal applications such as Lumen GI). 60fps increases both temporal resolution and the subsequent perception of spatial resolution. It increases responsiveness, it strains the eye less and it diminishes the effects of tearing, uneven frame pacing and framerate drops should they occur.

A higher res at 30fps gives you only one thing relatively speaking. Spatial resolution which is only really apparent in motion; and which is further negated by the nature of motion resolution limitations in modern displays.

Of course, if you're heavily CPU limited, 60 just might not be an option if you have a particular vision to achieve. But wherever it is, I think there's far more to be gained from it. I think 60fps might be at least somewhat more common as a result of this wildcard.
 
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DaGwaphics

DaGwaphics

Member
BadBreathOfTheWild said:
Is this limited 100GB of directly addressable SSD area actually confirmed, or just armchair deduction? Surely that would put some wear on the drive? Reading won’t, but having to make a copy and write first every time will.

I was trying to understand what “100GB made instantly available” meant, too.
On PS5 the entire drive is made instantly available via a DMAC. Likely with less latency, too. Why wouldn’t Microsoft do the same instead of that complicated and convoluted route?
Click to expand...

I think the 100GB thing is just taken out of context and completely misinterpreted. A figurative statement taken literally.
 
DaGwaphics

DaGwaphics

Member
BadBreathOfTheWild said:
That’s what I assumed, too. Surely they’ve got the same kind of directly addressable SSD as PS5.
Click to expand...

I would assume so, likely with a bit more latency. I can't see any advantage for prioritizing access to a single segment of a drive, unless there is some variation in the type of nand used for a specific partition. We need to get a look at the SSD itself to see if it's traditional or if there is some oddities there. They were so careful not show the back of the anaconda board in the videos they released, that and the "SB" were shielded from view for the most part.
 
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BGs

BGs

Industry Professional
BadBreathOfTheWild said:
What Microsoft has gone for is tried and tested, and the workflow will be familiar to people in the industry. This is good for XSX.


What is it about PS5’s architecture and tool-kit that has you or other’s in the industry excited? Can you give examples of ideas (or Dreams, as Cerny used) it now makes possible? How does it help you or your colleagues?

Or is it as simple as less tedious work needs to be done which allows resources to be used to add new features or depth elsewhere?
Click to expand...

XSX is certainly a better known system. It is the slope that PS5 has to overcome, adapting to new characteristics that change your working method (if you want). But PS5 is not an unknown system either, it simply has some peculiarities that, if you want, you can take advantage of, but this implies breaking a bit with the past. The good side is that, on the one hand, it can be optional. On the other hand, Sony has made a considerable effort to create simple and direct tools to take advantage of its Hardware. Otherwise it would not be possible and we would have found a wall as it happened with Cell and PS3. Sony took good note of it, that's why MCerny entered the scene. I insist, saying that something is good does not imply that the other is bad. But certainly Sony currently has no problems in that regard (or I am not aware of it). Also I am not discovering America, they are logical reasoning.

In my particular case it affects the ease of creation (due to the amount of work, if it is considered from the beginning, it could do without several steps "possibly tedious for many" in the creation of content. EDIT►But that indirectly also involves much more detail. Being able to use models directly from ZBrush is amazing to say the least. Less work, more detail.) and the freedom of creation in the design of the game. (The games you want or are not limited in design by the loading times. Sometimes it is a real puzzle to generate a level or a space. That could disappear). There are more advantages, but they do not concern me directly. Of course, everything good has adaptation processes that for some may be uncomfortable (programmers will surely suffer more). But in a way, whether you like it or not, it is part of our annual day to day, always learning new things and tools, recycling or dying, so if adaptation has to be done, it is done, as long as it is for the good.

I am also impressed with the Tempest Engine and its specific and general possibilities.

PS. Some of the things I allways explain are a mix between my direct experiences and the explanations of my office colleagues. Therefore, in those parts I cannot specify as well as in mine. Many times they tell me "this is bullshit" and I say "oh! Yes? Ok" but I don't know why that is bullshit, I must believe their word, since on the other hand, if they explained it to me, it is possible that I didn't either understood. Maybe he is right or maybe he is useless. Being professional does not mean being perfect (and I include myself).
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
TLZ said:
How on Earth did I see 3 different changes to your post without it showing you've edited them?

First I saw the PS5 fanmade controller, which I was going to respond to but then that changed to Michael Scott's gif. Then that changed to the current one after I refreshed.

You a mod?
Click to expand...
It is better to ask a mode because it is really no showing that he changed the post.

Edit - Test.

Yeap it is working fine here.
 
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DaGwaphics

DaGwaphics

Member
Exodia

Exodia

Banned
Bo_Hazem said:
I'm not sure, guys, I want solid evidence from Epic Games that this isn't native 4K. It's probably the 8K assets deceiving me, but my vision, thank God, is pretty sharp. If put side by side with so-called 4K of the same spot, maybe, but that haze is in the game. I can see some artifacts (around the main character, bats, and some areas related to LUMEN) here and there but overall it's extremely sharp at 4K.

Who the fuck is saying this is not 4K? Especially 1440p which is way off 4K!

"I noticed it isn’t running in native 4k, as per Digital Foundry. It looked great but I found this odd. Especially for a tech demo. The Xbox Series X has more teraflops but I’m not sure it has enough to run this demo at 4K. I was expecting all games to run at 4K on next gen consoles. Didn’t people make a fuss when the Xbox 360 didn’t run games at 1080p? Well we will see in the coming months but maybe these aren’t 4K boxes after all."

metro.co.uk

Games Inbox: Do you believe the Unreal Engine 5 demo is real?

The Friday Inbox debates whether the Unreal Engine 5 demo on PS5 is real footage or not, as one reader enjoys Disgaea 4.
metro.co.uk metro.co.uk

Well, Digital Fuckery doing the usual. I think they got confused by the artifacts caused by GI software based ray tracing, but no way this is not native 4K or close to it. I made those screenshots as some uploaded some non-4K screenshots that might confuse the rest. You need a 4K TV or monitor to extract 4K screenshots. Now, with any screen you can zoom in and tell by yourself.
Click to expand...



Rusco Da Vino said:
Any official source to back that up?👆

Or it is another of your unsourced fantasy posts (44 since Saturday!) where you talk as a sort of guru in the matter?
Click to expand...



52 CU vs 36 CU.
Nanite runs faster on XSX. This is an un-disputeable fact.
 
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Bonsaibäumchen

Bonsaibäumchen

Member
BGs said:
I would like to take advantage of your response to make a general appeal. It is very important that you do not take this quote as an answer to your points, but as a general idea of the situation. It is not so much about being right but about exposing some facts.

I would also like to point out that, as the following is a complex expression text, it is possible that some errors have been made in the translation with everyday expressions in my language but that they may not have a direct translation in English, or that some examples are not understood from the everything. In that case my sincere apologies. Let us begin.

Every opinion is respectable, but not every opinion is valid.

PS5 doesn't need more than what it has.

XSX is an extraordinary system. Within the traditional workflow system it is the best home system created so far.

PS5 is not traditional. It is the first and only of its kind. It may go well or it may go wrong, time will tell, but it certainly is not comparable. It is as if you wanted to compare an electric car and a gasoline car. Yes, there are things that you can use to generate a debate, such as speed in KMH or MPH. But it will be an inconsequential debate. The basis of both is to achieve a displacement, but it is achieved in different ways and with different mechanisms.

Attempts are being made (too many times) to defend absurd comparisons. I am going to give a very exaggerated example, but so that the idea is understood:

XSX may already have the best oil tank, filters, carb, spark plugs, combustion engine, or timing belt, but it does because you should have it, because it is necessary to get better performance with that type of vehicle. But PS5 does not need all those things, it is an electric car. PS5 does not need BcPack. With Kraken (by the way, improved version for PS5) you have enough for what your system can offer. The purpose is to make both PS5 and XSX reach 300KMH. That XSX surely reaches that figure better in the traditional way? Undoubtedly, for sure. But PS5 is not traditional.

Starting from this exaggerated example it is necessary to qualify that yes, that both systems have things in common that are comparable and debatable, such as wheels, windows, transmission axles, etc ... And that can undoubtedly affect the final performance. , but we would be talking about elements that perhaps do not exceed 25% of the total system. We will see if they end up affecting or not.

For example, PS5 is a system that has an SSD that can make RAM dispensable for certain processes, so what are you doing wasting time comparing the different RAM of different systems? Can't you see you're wasting your time?

Other examples, XSX gets extra space by compressing data. Perfect, one way to approach a problem. PS5 uses the SSD to send data directly without going through RAM, so RAM will have more free space for other things. Perfect, another way to approach the same problem (I don't know if you understand what I mean to say). Comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same?

What remains to be seen is whether PS5 is capable of delivering the same results as XSX by addressing the same issues differently. Therefore, the effective discussion should be reduced to whether this new content creation system (PS5) is more effective than the traditional one and if it is capable of offering a visual finish (and with optimal performance) that is comparatively identical or better than that of the systems. traditional. If the answer is "yes", it will not matter how it is achieved. It does not matter if one uses BcPack and another Kraken, or one 10GB of RAM and another 16GB. If the result shown on TV is the same in both XSX and PS5 (or higher in the latter) then Sony will have won, and the industry / developers too, as it will mean that a new way of creating content has been successful. That is to say, it will have managed to establish as "valid" the technology of the electric car, then it will only be missing that over the years (or decades) the industry will gradually migrate from the traditional system to the new one. Will that mean XSX results are bad? No. What is really being tested here is the "creation system". XSX will continue to offer the best results in the traditional style.

By the way, Digital Foundry lives by generating debate, and that is very good, but you have to know (when you inform yourself) what you are reading and in what context, otherwise it may happen that you have to retract your words more than you one would want.

Sony is not looking to be "only" the best console, Sony is looking to improve the content creation system, facilitating the process but trying to maintain or improve the qualities. MCerny is a developer who has designed 2 consoles with the intention of making developers' lives easier, since (intelligently) he knows that if the developer is happy and the creation system is simple, then consequently the developer will want to work with that system and therefore both the console will have more content and variety worldwide. And it is what is happening. It started to happen with PS4 and I think it will continue to happen with PS5. And this shouldn't confront people or anger anyone. Competitiveness is necessary to improve, and the result is that the user will always be the beneficiary.

Whether or not PS5 will make it, or whether that system will catch on in the industry or not, only time will tell.

And the answer to the question will be known with the years and the results, and NOT with the theoretical numbers.

Other examples, XSX gets extra space by compressing data. Perfect, one way to approach a problem. PS5 uses the SSD to send data directly without going through RAM, so RAM will have more free space for other things. Perfect, another way to approach the same problem (I don't know if you understand what I mean to say).

What remains to be seen is whether PS5 is capable of delivering the same results as XSX by addressing the same issues differently. Therefore, the effective discussion should be reduced to whether this new content creation system (PS5) is more effective than the traditional one and if it is capable of offering a visual finish (and with optimal performance) that is comparatively identical or better than that of the systems. traditional. If the answer is "yes", it will not matter how it is achieved. It does not matter if one uses BcPack and another Kraken, or one 10GB of RAM and another 16GB. If the result shown on TV is the same in both XSX and PS5 (or higher in the latter) then Sony will have won, and the industry / developers too, as it will mean that a new way of creating content has been successful. That is to say, it will have managed to establish as "valid" the technology of the electric car in the automotive industry, then it will only be missing that with the years (or decades) the industry will programmatically migrate from the traditional system to the new one. Will that mean XSX results are bad? No. What is really being tested here is the "creation system", not the power itself. XSX will continue to offer the best results in the traditional style. And that doesn't mean PS5 can't deliver the same (or better) results with the new system. In the same way, surely there will be things that PS5 will do worse. Or things that were believed to be better and that are eventually discovered that do not work as well. It will be seen in time.

By the way, I don't want to be politically incorrect with some indirect colleagues in the sector, but Digital Foundry lives on comparisons. Which is fine. And with this, very interesting debates are generated. You can even generate a more logical or less debate, but I would not dare to say that its conclusion is the most appropriate in this circumstance. Since it could happen that one has to retract some unlucky words more times than one would like (as is already happening). Also note that it doesn't only matter what a number says, but what your eye perceives. Because here there is a lot of bionic eye detecting pixels in static images but also many of them wear glasses and in the end they have to end up playing on their sofa 2 meters from the TV. I understand this purism more for the pixels in those PC players who have a monitor that is sharper than their TV and at a much shorter distance (probably 60cm). But come on, I think that currently nobody is going to cut their veins by a few pixels more or less.

Sony is not looking to be "just" the best console, it is already on top, the PlayStation brand needs no advertising, Sony is in a situation where it can afford to "test" with innovative systems, and can afford to fail. In this case looking to improve the content creation system trying to maintain or improve the final qualities. MCerny is a developer who has designed 2 consoles with the intention of making developers' lives easier, since (intelligently) he knows that if the developer is happy and the creation system is simple, then consequently the developer will want to work with that system and therefore both the console will have more content and variety worldwide. And it is what is happening. It started to happen with PS4 and I think it will continue to happen with PS5. And this shouldn't confront people or anger anyone. Competitiveness is necessary to improve, and the result is that the user will always be the beneficiary. In addition, MCerny has enough experience behind him in various sectors to have earned the benefit of waiting to see what happens in order to judge properly. On the other hand, I understand that in forums there is a need to know everything "NOW". But these companies always make "investments" with long-term "results".

Whether or not PS5 will make it, or whether that system will catch on in the industry or not, only time will tell.

And the answer to the question will be known with the years and the results, and NOT with the theoretical numbers.

So, comparable? It depends. The visual result is the same? The ease of creation is the same? Can you do without certain things without affecting the final quality? Does the possible work system compensate based on the result obtained? We will see. My opinion is that it does compensate, amply. Although I know that there are people concerned about whether this affects their jobs. Although my opinion is again that I do not think it affects, let's be positive.
Click to expand...



My gut was telling me PS5 is trying to be what PS3 was meant to be.
While they overdid it with the PS3 and went way ahead, this time around they made a more carefull approach to drive videogame evolution forwards.

They are trying to build a new baseline for the future.
A new architetcure to optimize current available technologies to their fulles potential while offering completly new possibilities for future improvements.

Once you've managed to find a solution for all the small bottlenecks you can improve upon that.
Just imagine how they'll be able to iterate upon that design in the years to come.
All their custom work might be standard by the time a PS5 Pro might come, and then they might be able to improve on all specs simoultanously without to much cost.
This is what I think at least - the base is there, if it works out an upgraded PS5 aka. PS5 Pro could potentially be a real monster.
 
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Thirty7ven

Thirty7ven

Banned
DaGamez said:
The Xbox brand is less global, however the initial success in the markets they targeted (US and UK primarily) was maintained throughout the cycle. The Wii blew up and then quickly died, it's hard to say how best to look at that one.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/685117/us-game-consoles-unit-sales/
Click to expand...

I might be wrong, but the most important metrics are HW units sold, attach ratio, and total units of software sold. It doesn't really matter for how long a console sold or not.

I can tell you that Xbox doesn't have a single record to its name, be it hardware units sold or software sold in a year. So the whole fastest to ten million will have a lot of caveats to it, namely how fast launch aligned for starters. Wii also sold a fuck ton more software than the 360, Ps3 also beat it.

Just trying to put the whole "first to ten million" in context because that shit started with the Ps2 I think? Dude on stage saying "It's over before it started, first to ten million".
 
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Gamernyc78

Gamernyc78

Banned
chigstoke said:
How in the fuck has one tech demo caused such a pathetic bunch of arguments from some people?

It's like a my dad is better than your dad argument in school. Absolutely pathetic.
Click to expand...

The same way a logo did, a controller showing, this gen reveals, pricing, showing of certain games, etc lol

Not being a dick but it's the nature of alot of ppl to be combative, argumentative and assholes about bullshit.
 
chigstoke

chigstoke

Member
Gamernyc78 said:
The same way a logo did, a controller showing, this gen reveals, pricing, showing of certain games, etc lol

Not being a dick but it's the nature of alot of ppl to be combative, argumentative and assholes about bullshit.
Click to expand...
Don't worry mate I know you're not being a dick.

I just find it incredibly odd how, as you say, argumentative people can get about bloody consoles.

The PS5 or XSX could literally shit out the cure for Covid-19 through the disc tray and they'd find a way to trash either system :messenger_beaming:
 
DaGwaphics

DaGwaphics

Member
Thirty7ven said:
I might be wrong, but the most important metrics are HW units sold, attach ratio, and total units of software sold. It doesn't really matter for how long a console sold or not.

I can tell you that Xbox doesn't have a single record to its name, be it hardware units sold or software sold in a year. So the whole fastest to ten million will have a lot of caveats to it, namely how fast launch aligned for starters.

Just trying to put the whole "first to ten million" in context because that shit started with the Ps2 I think? Dude on stage saying "It's over before it started, first to ten million".
Click to expand...

Where a product is marketed also has to be taken into account. X360 smoked the PS3 in the US (maybe UK?) for the entirety of the generation (by bigger margins than PS4 vs. X1 in the US), it did win those markets. 360 may have even remained above the Wii in the US, not sure what their final numbers were. If your first 10 million are sold in just a few regions, expect any exponential sales benefits to only have impact on those regions.
 
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FranXico

FranXico

Member
J_Gamer.exe

J_Gamer.exe

Member
Exodia said:
Huh? XSX has a hardware decompressor, DMA and a thermal heatsink.... Man you guys are something else.
Click to expand...


As a few others have pointed out I'm on about this slide.

71384_512_playstation-5s-high-speed-ssd-to-benefit-next-gen-exclusives-the-most.png


The reason sony did all this was to eliminate all the bottlenecks. If this is not needed and could just be done by software they clearly completely misjudged it and wasted time and money, but that seems very unlikely doesn't it given what were hearing about their god tier ssd and io.

As far as we know Xbox doesn't have the 12 channel controller, co processors, cache scrubbers etc.

Sony have claimed if their ssd was 100x faster with these specific hardware breakthroughs they can transfer it to the useable end as 100x faster.

Xbox is already less than half as fast raw and compressed for ease of comparison let's call that half as fast too.

Now if Microsoft have not eliminated the ssd bottlenecks and all of them (which sony said you need to do and to do that they needed that specific hardware, that's just not present on xbox) then it's common sense their io will be much slower. Unless sfs is magic and bcpack somehow are better the dedicated hardware.

Again, look at that third party dev opinion that lines up with a lot of others we have heard, from insane metal. It mentions 2.5x faster minimum - 5x faster.

Let's simplify...

If ps5 ssd is 100 times faster than ps4 and using that specific hardware = 100 times faster at the other end. None of their already basically double xbox speed is lost.

instead-a-100x-faster-ssd-will-provide-a-100x-faster-end-use_3hzh.jpg


If xbox ssd is 50 times faster than a ps4 but they haven't eliminated all bottlenecks (and cerny said theres a lot) then it'll be less than 50 times ps4 at the other end.

jpg


It could end up 25 times ps4 at the other end. That's great and a massive improvement but sony is claiming their speed transfers so ps5 would in that situation be 4 times xbox.

That's basically what that dev opinion is saying it is.
 
chigstoke

chigstoke

Member
Dibils2k said:
when sony lost the TF fight, you knew Sony fanboys would come back hard
Click to expand...
It'll be tit for tat for a while.

It's why I'm dreading footage of games taking full advantage of XVA. I can see what is coming from a mile away from both sides.

I never kept up with the initial PS4 vs XBOne battle online so I can only imagine it was the same back then. 900p vs 1080p, 1.3TF vs 1.8TF etc...
 
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geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
So over at B3D a very interesting post about compressing that data used in the UE5 demo,. it looks as though vertices does not compress that well and all this talk of Kraken and BCPack is POSSIBLY worthless for vertices / Mesh, its could be down to the Raw speed and latency of SSD.

I remember reading or hearing in the UE5 demo the mesh stuff is uncompressed, but cant remember where I heard or read it - anyone ?

From Shifty geezer mod on B3D, good points :

The stuff I've seen on mesh compression that's effective is also slow.

Here's a look at Google's Draco: https://medium.com/box-developer-bl...ssion-at-scale-draco-vs-open3dgc-c9618b7d64d8

A 5 million vertex statue, 800 MB source down to only 14 MB, but on a 2.8 GHz i7 MacBook took 12.7s to decode.


GPU compute fancyness may well get much faster, but they're still using quantization. It'd be quite the feat if Epic has both high compression and fast random-access reads. I think it more likely data is just huge and read quickly (hence the need for SSDs). Even drive-compression like Kraken might screw with the virtualised data and be unusable?
Click to expand...
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild

BadBreathOfTheWild

Banned
BGs said:
XSX is certainly a better known system. It is the slope that PS5 has to overcome, adapting to new characteristics that change your working method (if you want). But PS5 is not an unknown system either, it simply has some peculiarities that, if you want, you can take advantage of, but this implies breaking a bit with the past. The good side is that, on the one hand, it can be optional. On the other hand, Sony has made a considerable effort to create simple and direct tools to take advantage of its Hardware. Otherwise it would not be possible and we would have found a wall as it happened with Cell and PS3. Sony took good note of it, that's why MCerny entered the scene. I insist, saying that something is good does not imply that the other is bad. But certainly Sony currently has no problems in that regard (or I am not aware of it). Also I am not discovering America, they are logical reasoning.

In my particular case it affects the ease of creation (due to the amount of work, if it is considered from the beginning, it could do without several steps "possibly tedious for many" in the creation of content. EDIT►But that indirectly also involves much more detail. Being able to use models directly from ZBrush is amazing to say the least. Less work, more detail.) and the freedom of creation in the design of the game. (The games you want or are not limited in design by the loading times. Sometimes it is a real puzzle to generate a level or a space. That could disappear). There are more advantages, but they do not concern me directly. Of course, everything good has adaptation processes that for some may be uncomfortable (programmers will surely suffer more). But in a way, whether you like it or not, it is part of our annual day to day, always learning new things and tools, recycling or dying, so if adaptation has to be done, it is done, as long as it is for the good.

I am also impressed with the Tempest Engine and its specific and general possibilities.

PS. Some of the things I allways explain are a mix between my direct experiences and the explanations of my office colleagues. Therefore, in those parts I cannot specify as well as in mine. Many times they tell me "this is bullshit" and I say "oh! Yes? Ok" but I don't know why that is bullshit, I must believe their word, since on the other hand, if they explained it to me, it is possible that I didn't either understood. Maybe he is right or maybe he is useless. Being professional does not mean being perfect (and I include myself).
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. For me it’s about whether Sony’s IO solution actually enables any real world advantages over a more typical one as found in XSX.

Being able to import ZBrush models is UE5 specific rather than PS5 specific, right? The same can be leveraged on XSX, even if not quite as many?

The question I find hard to get an answer to is whether Sony’s specific IO speed, latency and software implementation was targeting something specific, or is overkill.

Cerny seemed to want to hit 5GB/s raw speed to enable new kinds of rendering, and Sweeney said to listen to what Cerny said to understand what their collaboration enables.

But at the same time, Nanite as delivered by UE5 can be used on XSX and high end PC’s, too?

It seems contradictory. Is it about a scaling level of quality? Or won’t any developers outside of Epic know until 2021?

It seems insanity for Sony to invest so much money and die space on IO improvements if a standard NVMe setup is more than adequate.
It seems like insanity for EPIC and Sony to have worked together for years on pushing IO forward, resulting in this particular balance, if a standard NVMe setup is more than adequate.
It’s hard to cut through the noise

Interesting times, anyway.
 
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