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[DeltaPolarBear]

That's from Sony's financial statements (looking at their business as a whole). I'm talking about major market sales only.

I am not sure your point is. If PS2 could sell almost as much hardware as PS3 in the same year, surely that makes my point that there are two separate markets at work?

 

[DaGwaphics]

I am not sure your point is. If PS2 could sell almost as much hardware as PS3 in the same year, surely that makes my point that there are two separate markets at work?

Not really, no. Just because PS2 could rack up sales in third-world markets, does not imply anything regarding its performance in major markets post next-gen launch.

 

[Jack Videogames]

I would definatly think about it. Seriously. 1080p is good enough for me.

PS5 as powerhouse and lockhart for BC and exclusives.

I would, just so I could get into some XBOX360 exclusives I never beat like Blue Dragon

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Not really, no. Just because PS2 could rack up sales in third-world markets, does not imply anything regarding its performance in major markets post next-gen launch.

My point is that there is a market that buys in the first year of launch, and those that wait until next gen is out to buy the previous gen. And that the Lockhart would be competting for the latter market, where PS4 Superslim would sit and be its main competiter.

 

[DaGwaphics]

My point is that there is a market that buys in the first year of launch, and those that wait until next gen is out to buy the previous gen. And that the Lockhart would be competting for the latter market, where PS4 Superslim would sit and be its main competiter.

Lockhart wouldn't be designed to compete in "emerging markets", at least not for some time.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Microsoft doesn't need their own hardware to play Xbox games on. PC and mobile (xCloud) are also Xbox users of they play their games on those systems.

You can't just rely on Xcloud though because streaming isn't the best option for everyone. Google's Stadia service is proof that hardware still needs to be available for those that don't see streaming as a good option for them.

Most of Microsofts customers will be using gamepass on actual hardware. Very few of them are going to go with only streaming.

Hence it's still important for Microsoft to push hardware.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

You can't just rely on Xcloud though because streaming isn't the best option for everyone. Google's Stadia service is proof that hardware still needs to be available for those that don't see streaming as a good option for them.

Most of Microsofts customers will be using gamepass on actual hardware. Very few of them are going to go with only streaming.

Hence it's still important for Microsoft to push hardware.

I agree, but they don't need their own hardware though. If Sony would let them, I can see Microsoft releasing Game Pass on PS5.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I agree, but they don't need their own hardware though. If Sony would let them, I can see Microsoft releasing Game Pass on PS5.

Microsoft would probably end up with more Gamepass subscriptions on playstation than Xbox due to Sony selling alot more consoles.

As for needing hardware Xbox still needs to produce consoles which is why the Series X exists and the Series S is rumored to exist. With that said if Microsoft were to abandon Xbox hardware the number of Gamepass subscriptions that they have will plummet. Hence why hardware is still very important to them.

Any claims of hardware isn't important to them is just PR speak so they won't be compared to the competition.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I agree, but they don't need their own hardware though. If Sony would let them, I can see Microsoft releasing Game Pass on PS5.

Sony would do it anytime, but will also demand 30% rent like anyone else. Also, that means all the third party would jump ship from Gamepass as they would not be willing to pay two layers of rent. You can't have your Gamepass AND be on Playstation without consequences.

 

[Nikana]

I agree, but they don't need their own hardware though. If Sony would let them, I can see Microsoft releasing Game Pass on PS5.

They need hardware to be able to dictate the rules and cuts.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Microsoft would probably end up with more Gamepass subscriptions on playstation than Xbox due to Sony selling alot more consoles.

Actually, we can currently already see that the inverse is what's true. A larger install base does not guarantee more sales for a piece of software or subscription service, just the assumed potential of more sales/subscriptions.

Going by console LTD ratios Sony should have around 30 million PS Now subscribers, not 2 million. The actual buying habits of customers across the Xbox and Playstation ecosystems when it comes to things like subscription services seems to be vastly different and it's an area Sony will have to work hard to improve in so that they can reach a higher ratio of their install base.

 

[Great Hair]

Lockhart Details To Be Revealed Soon
March 5, 2020
June 7, 2020

 

[MasterCornholio]

Actually, we can currently already see that the inverse is what's true. A larger install base does not guarantee more sales for a piece of software or subscription service, just the assumed potential of more sales/subscriptions.

Going by console LTD ratios Sony should have around 30 million PS Now subscribers, not 2 million. The actual buying habits of customers across the Xbox and Playstation ecosystems when it comes to things like subscription services seems to be vastly different and it's an area Sony will have to work hard to improve in so that they can reach a higher ratio of their install base.

PSNow isn't regularly put on sale nor does it promise 1st party titles at launch.

There's many reasons why it isn't doing so well because PlayStation gamers are not embracing the subscription model bedause,

1. It's never cheap so they don't get the impulse to try it.

2. The games that they want are simply not available on the service when they launch.

As for other subscriptions if we look at something like PlayStation Plus those numbers are alot higher than Gold's. The reason why it's because the user base is alot higher and it's locking online play behind a paywall. Hence why the subscription numbers for Plus are much higher than the ones for PSNow.

With that said even with this talk about how hardware sales are or are not important I personally believe that they still are for both companies.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

PSNow isn't regularly put on sale nor does it promise 1st party titles at launch.

There's many reasons why it isn't doing so well because PlayStation gamers are not embracing the subscription model bedause,

1. It's never cheap so they don't get the impulse to try it.

2. The games that they want are simply not available on the service when they launch.

As for other subscriptions if we look at something like PlayStation Plus those numbers are alot higher than Gold's. The reason why it's because the user base is alot higher and it's locking online play behind a paywall. Hence why the subscription numbers for Plus are much higher than the ones for PSNow.

With that said even with this talk about how hardware sales are or are not important I personally believe that they still are for both companies.

Right, so basically this proves the point I was stating previously. Sony have to make the service more enticing in order to drive a higher subscription ratio across their user base. If the simple fact of it being present as an equivalent service (in the most basic aspects) isn't enough to drive a similar subscription ratio relative to MS's on their ecosystem, then there must be aspects of the service which are lacking causing that issue.

You've identified a lot of the major ones. Whether the service has been a priority for Sony or not isn't of too much importance when just discussing its current state and simply observing the subscription numbers. However we can probably both agree that it will absolutely become more of a priority for them going forward given other things that even 3-4 years ago we could say they'd never consider venturing into, they're doing with a bit more agency these days.

Just the nature of business.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Right, so basically this proves the point I was stating previously. Sony have to make the service more enticing in order to drive a higher subscription ratio across their user base. If the simple fact of it being present as an equivalent service (in the most basic aspects) isn't enough to drive a similar subscription ratio relative to MS's on their ecosystem, then there must be aspects of the service which are lacking causing that issue.

You've identified a lot of the major ones. Whether the service has been a priority for Sony or not isn't of too much importance when just discussing its current state and simply observing the subscription numbers. However we can probably both agree that it will absolutely become more of a priority for them going forward given other things that even 3-4 years ago we could say they'd never consider venturing into, they're doing with a bit more agency these days.

Just the nature of business.

I agree that Sony is interested however I don't believe it's their top priority right now. I don't expect them to dump everything into PSNow and ignore the formulas that made the PS4 so successful in the first place.

For example, I'm not expecting them to include day one 1st party titles on PSNow on evete single platform anytime soon.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Isn't it interesting that everyone who support the existence of a lockhart, also don't want to buy one?

Is there anyone, anywhere, who would say they would buy one?

No because those who are interested are the casuals who quite honestly don't waste their time on forums and message boards. I want the better overall console which is why im buying Xbox Series X but make no mistake, Xbox Series S will be the console that sells the most because casuals simply want a great deal of value. And if they don't own or plan to own a 4K TV, there's no reason for them to buy the Xbox Series X because they wouldn't be able to take full advantage of it anyway so they would go with the console that's $200 cheaper.

I wouldn't say that I support Series S but im not against it either. It simply doesn't apply to me because im not the casual market that it's meant for so day one or two years later, doesn't matter, for me, im day one for Series X.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

Isn't it interesting that everyone who support the existence of a lockhart, also don't want to buy one?

Is there anyone, anywhere, who would say they would buy one?

I would buy one. Possibly.

Why? Because Xbox will most likely always be a secondary platform for the foreseeable future. However I also love Halo/Forza Horizon/Gears.

Lockhart would have to be cheap enough however, and until new hardware comes out on both the console and PC side I don’t know which route I will take anyway. If PS fucks up launch, and Series X is cheap enough with more then just Halo I would jump in possibly.

 

[IbizaPocholo]

 

[D.Final]

So it is truly real

 

[Esppiral]

I still think that releasing a second, weaker console is a mistake...

 

[cireza]

The fact that configuration templates or variables exist for the machine profile does not mean that MS is going to release it.

 

[John254]

The fact that configuration templates or variables exist for the machine profile does not mean that MS is going to release it.

Yup. But Corden also claimed (from his sources), that Microsoft employees have Lockhart in "home testing phase." Also Grubb said, that Lockhart was supposed to be revealed in June (Xboxing Day) and many people with good Microsoft insider info said, that Dante (Xbox dev kit) has Lockhart profile and devs are targeting their games to this platform.
I think Lockhart will be released, especially since economic crisis is upon us and more affordable console can be big.

Question is when. At XsX release or after that?

 

[Nikana]

Are we still really debating Lockhart? Its coming.

 

[cireza]

Yup. But Corden also claimed (from his sources), that Microsoft employees have Lockhart in "home testing phase." Also Grubb said, that Lockhart was supposed to be revealed in June (Xboxing Day) and many people with good Microsoft insider info said, that Dante (Xbox dev kit) has Lockhart profile and devs are targeting their games to this platform.
I think Lockhart will be released, especially since economic crisis is upon us and more affordable console can be big.

Question is when. At XsX release or after that?

It would be a mistake to reveal it before the release of Series X and confuse people even more. Not even talking about the idea of having such a weak console added to the equation.

The only good I can see of it, considering the current worldwide situation and financial crisis we will go through, is that this weaker console could appeal to a much broader audience if priced really low.

 

[mckmas8808]

It would be a mistake to reveal it before the release of Series X and confuse people even more. Not even talking about the idea of having such a weak console added to the equation.

The only good I can see of it, considering the current worldwide situation and financial crisis we will go through, is that this weaker console could appeal to a much broader audience if priced really low.

You couldn't be more right with the bolded. But if the majority of Xbox fans end up getting the Lockhart and not the XSX, then what does that mean 2-3 years from now? Will more 1st party devs develop their games with Lockhart in mind first as the focus and not the XSX?

 

[TBiddy]

You couldn't be more right with the bolded. But if the majority of Xbox fans end up getting the Lockhart and not the XSX, then what does that mean 2-3 years from now? Will more 1st party devs develop their games with Lockhart in mind first as the focus and not the XSX?

Hypothetically - what difference would that make, if the Lockhart is for all intents and purposes just a 1080p version of the 4K XSX?

 

[mrBarrelNut]

I still think that releasing a second, weaker console is a mistake...

Absolutely not.

I have X1X and X1SAD at the moment. I have several televisions but only one 4K set at the moment. And not all people interested in next gen systems will have 4K set yet, especially not in children's rooms etc.

It makes no sense to buy 4K/8K console and connect it to the 1080P set, just buy a 1080P console and save big bucks for the extra SSD drive for example.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

I still think it's a handheld.

Why would Microsoft release the most and least powerful next gen console all in one go? It makes no sense.

Especially if MS are continuing to support the Xbox one family, why chop the legs off of the X? unless Microsoft are bullshitting about xbone family support?

 

[Nikana]

I still think it's a handheld.

Why would Microsoft release the most and least powerful next gen console all in one go? It makes no sense.

Especially if MS are continuing to support the Xbox one family, why chop the legs off of the X? unless Microsoft are bullshitting about xbone family support?

You can support your previous consoles without having to keep them on the market. Lockhart will have the same features as the XSX but not be able to output at such high settings. It allows the developers to not have to target the XO family in a few years and focus on the newer features of the CPU and GPU.

 

[turtlepowa]

It would be a mistake to reveal it before the release of Series X and confuse people even more.

Depends on their marketing. Something like "Full next gen experience at half the price" could work. They also should stop producing S and X soon and take them out of the stores just before next gen starts..

 

[cireza]

You couldn't be more right with the bolded. But if the majority of Xbox fans end up getting the Lockhart and not the XSX, then what does that mean 2-3 years from now? Will more 1st party devs develop their games with Lockhart in mind first as the focus and not the XSX?

It would mean that MS were right to release a weak console, which would mean that there are many lessons to make out of it.

After all, in the past, we had Sega supporting both MegaDrive and Master System (with different games) and they both had good reasons to exist (talking about Europe).

 

[DrAspirino]

Depends on their marketing. Something like "Full next gen experience at half the price" could work. They also should stop producing S and X soon and take them out of the stores just before next gen starts..

Yep. They could target something like "for those of you who have a Full HDTV, you can still get the full next-gen experience at a lower price, with X months of GamePass bundled. Introducing, Lockhart!".

If they price it correctly (like... I don't know...$300? $250?) and adapt the prices for different markets, they can seriously win marketshare from US casuals and from gamers from countries that have steep import taxes.

 

[Cyborg]

Lockhart Details To Be Revealed Soon
March 5, 2020
June 7, 2020

Sooony oh wait, wrong company!

 

[Slings and Arrows]

You can support your previous consoles without having to keep them on the market. Lockhart will have the same features as the XSX but not be able to output at such high settings. It allows the developers to not have to target the XO family in a few years and focus on the newer features of the CPU and GPU.

Then simply put, neither lockhart or xsx is for me. I don't want my next gen consoles features targeted and focused on in a few years, I want that right out of the gate.

For me this another round of the Xbox division not knowing what it wants and lacking a clear direction and drive. Xbone, xbone x, lockhart( potentially) and xsx will all be supported and all have different internals

 

[Nikana]

Then simply put, neither lockhart or xsx is for me. I don't want my next gen consoles features targeted and focused on in a few years, I want that right out of the gate.

For me this another round of the Xbox division not knowing what it wants and lacking a clear direction and drive. Xbone, xbone x, lockhart( potentially) and xsx will all be supported and all have different internals

It really depends what their goals are with each version of the game. Will it be the same game with different profiles or will each version have its own unqiue parts of development like Forza Horizon 2 which was completely different compared on 360 vs One.

 

[Knitted Knight]

If this thing is real Nintendo is looking at some competition for that casual, not just Sony. I will be funny seeing Nintendo fanboys gear up for war

 

[THE DUCK]

Still think if priced at $250 for christmas this could be a monster. Faster, leaner, meaner than anything current gen, yet still affordable. Post covid this may be more important than ever before.

 

[Tulipanzo]

I don't think people are ready for how badly this is going to bomb.
MS's strategy here is baffling, especially given they also plan to shackle the XSX to the X1 for an extra two years.

People are looking at the leaks, and painting a pretty rosy,no-issues picture of Lockhart, but plenty seems bad:
GPU: "4TF is enough for 1080p if 12TF does 4K!" Yes, but technology seems to be moving towards rendering at lower resolution, upscaling losslessly to 4K, while using GPU power for virtualized geometry and other features.
If the UE5 demo ran at 1440p on PS5, that same demo would need to run at 576p on Lockhart; say bye-bye to RT too, as that requires a way better GPU
CPU/RAM/SSD: even minor changes here would be a nightmare to optimize for between consoles, and would impact development for XSX games; RAM amount is reportedly significantly less too; an inferior system would be an albatross around the XSX neck for the whole generation

Devs heavily disliked it, and those concerns never really went away; this might speak to disinterest and/or hardship, like it did on PS3
WTF is up with development? This project was reportedly cancelled, uncancelled and is now in flux. We're now less than 6 months from launch and MS still refuses to even admit it's real at all and delayed its announcement to August

Cost: the SSD makes up a big part of price, so even with significantly worse features, this might still come in at close to 400; if it's anywhere close to PS5/XSX it's dead
Market: this is supposedly a cheaper next-gen entry point, but I ask: "Who buys a next-gen console at launch, yet doesn't care about any next-gen features and wants no exclusive games?"
There's people who buy consoles at launch, because they care about features, or people that buy it later when games come and the system is cheaper. This system offers neither, yet it's supposedly a guaranteed hit.
By the time exclusives actually come, the XSX/PS5 won't be as expensive, making the Lockhart even more useless
No disc-drive: this will ensure it fails, as people that would be interested in a cheap system NEED physical releases; in a lot of territories MS is doing badly in, discs are still cheaper than downloads, plus telling people their collection is now unaccessible is frankly appaling*.
A no disc-drive console also tells even the most tech-illiterate grandma "this is the dogshit model, AVOID"; a saving of 30$ on manufacturing plunges the value of this thing to belowe 100$, as it did the SAD

Frankly, I hope the thing never comes to market, but if it does, I expect it to get the same reputation for shitty ports and broken titles the OG X1 has right now.



*This isn't me being a fanboy: if Sony released a disc-less PS5 I'd tell them to fuck off with that, and I'd actively tell my friends to avoid buying it. You can't access your physical collection, trade-in, sell, buy used, share or chuck out the window any of your games, and gain nothing. A discless console is objectively worse, and provides no benefit to the end user.

 

[John254]

I don't think people are ready for how badly this is going to bomb.
MS's strategy here is baffling, especially given they also plan to shackle the XSX to the X1 for an extra two years.

People are looking at the leaks, and painting a pretty rosy,no-issues picture of Lockhart, but plenty seems bad:
GPU: "4TF is enough for 1080p if 12TF does 4K!" Yes, but technology seems to be moving towards rendering at lower resolution, upscaling losslessly to 4K, while using GPU power for virtualized geometry and other features.
If the UE5 demo ran at 1440p on PS5, that same demo would need to run at 576p on Lockhart; say bye-bye to RT too, as that requires a way better GPU
CPU/RAM/SSD: even minor changes here would be a nightmare to optimize for between consoles, and would impact development for XSX games; RAM amount is reportedly significantly less too; an inferior system would be an albatross around the XSX neck for the whole generation

Devs heavily disliked it, and those concerns never really went away; this might speak to disinterest and/or hardship, like it did on PS3
WTF is up with development? This project was reportedly cancelled, uncancelled and is now in flux. We're now less than 6 months from launch and MS still refuses to even admit it's real at all and delayed its announcement to August

Cost: the SSD makes up a big part of price, so even with significantly worse features, this might still come in at close to 400; if it's anywhere close to PS5/XSX it's dead
Market: this is supposedly a cheaper next-gen entry point, but I ask: "Who buys a next-gen console at launch, yet doesn't care about any next-gen features and wants no exclusive games?"
There's people who buy consoles at launch, because they care about features, or people that buy it later when games come and the system is cheaper. This system offers neither, yet it's supposedly a guaranteed hit.
By the time exclusives actually come, the XSX/PS5 won't be as expensive, making the Lockhart even more useless
No disc-drive: this will ensure it fails, as people that would be interested in a cheap system NEED physical releases; in a lot of territories MS is doing badly in, discs are still cheaper than downloads, plus telling people their collection is now unaccessible is frankly appaling*.
A no disc-drive console also tells even the most tech-illiterate grandma "this is the dogshit model, AVOID"; a saving of 30$ on manufacturing plunges the value of this thing to belowe 100$, as it did the SAD

Frankly, I hope the thing never comes to market, but if it does, I expect it to get the same reputation for shitty ports and broken titles the OG X1 has right now.



*This isn't me being a fanboy: if Sony released a disc-less PS5 I'd tell them to fuck off with that, and I'd actively tell my friends to avoid buying it. You can't access your physical collection, trade-in, sell, buy used, share or chuck out the window any of your games, and gain nothing. A discless console is objectively worse, and provides no benefit to the end user.

I'm gonna ignore that "two year" bullshit that is spreading through GAF, because Microsoft said one year and maybe some...

GPU: Yup, it will be enough. Yes, it requires further optimalisation and maybe use of Mesh Shaders, VRS and Direct ML but it's certainly possible. Please stop bringing that Unreal Engine demo to conversation. It's tech demo, not a real game so it should be treated as such. Jesus, it is working now with PS4/PS4 Pro and XOne/XOneX, so why it won't work in next-gen?

CPU/RAM/SSD: it sould be same, so no issue here. Maybe lower amount of RAM because of lower resolution.

Devs heavily disliked it? - Where is the source of this info? I mean sure, they wouldn't jump through the roof because it is another machine to optimize your game, but from my understanding Dante devkit can easily switch from Lockhart to Anaconda profile so devs can easily target both machine at once

Cost: smaller APU, much smaller cost. If you threw out disc-drive there is another cost effective measure. Also if you threw out disc-drive you can take bigger hit with console sold because you locked customer to buying digital games/Game Pass sub because they have no other choice.

"By the time exclusives actually come, the XSX/PS5 won't be as expensive, making the Lockhart even more useless" - Yes, but when XsX and PS5 came down with price, Lockhart can came with them, right?

Market: Nope. It is targeted for a consumer who doesn't care about 4K or don't want to spend half of monthly income for console. I get that GAFers don't understand this, because they are "elite" but they are also small fraction of gaming population

For me, disc-less is no problem. Only thing I'm using disc drive on console is children songs on CD that i have for my daughter. But the most important part is - Microsoft isn't forcing you to disc-less console. You can still buy XsX with disc-drive if you are worried. I mean, Microsoft released XOne SAD so they know, it here is market for discless console. I'm sure that you don't have that data, or I am wrong?

And I mean, why do you care? If this product doesn't interest you, then don't buy it. I don't care about PS VR and do you see me complaining about his existence? Nope.

 

[ZywyPL]

GPU: "4TF is enough for 1080p if 12TF does 4K!" Yes, but technology seems to be moving towards rendering at lower resolution, upscaling losslessly to 4K, while using GPU power for virtualized geometry and other features.
If the UE5 demo ran at 1440p on PS5, that same demo would need to run at 576p on Lockhart; say bye-bye to RT too, as that requires a way better GPU.

Everything in AMD GPUs seems to be tied up to the CU count, which means if you scale down the TFlops you are automatically scaling down everything else accordingly, be it RT, machine learning, VRS, Mesh Shading etc.

 

[Tulipanzo]

I'm gonna ignore that "two year" bullshit that is spreading through GAF, because Microsoft said one year and maybe some...

That was Matt Booty saying it, up to two years. The statement being vague explains people's confusion as to how long this "bullshit" policy has to last.

GPU: Yup, it will be enough. Yes, it requires further optimalisation and maybe use of Mesh Shaders, VRS and Direct ML but it's certainly possible. Please stop bringing that Unreal Engine demo to conversation. It's tech demo, not a real game so it should be treated as such. Jesus, it is working now with PS4/PS4 Pro and XOne/XOneX, so why it won't work in next-gen?

It's a tech demo, but it's indicative of how games will be made on the most used Engine in the world. It's indicative of high-end functionality, like virtualized geometry, which the Lockhart won't be able to use it. This goes for RT too (Minecraft RT is 1080p on XSX atm).
Still, further optimization would still be an extra strain on overworked devs, just to make a worse version of their game.

Also, emm, obviously UE5 isn't on current gen, or any gen because it's not out yet. You seem confused.

CPU/RAM/SSD: it sould be same, so no issue here. Maybe lower amount of RAM because of lower resolution.

It's cool you have no idea how games are optimized, yet claim to speak with authority.
"Sould [sic.] be same" is going to go down great with devs who'll have to rework everything so the Lockhart doesn't fuck up.

Devs heavily disliked it? - Where is the source of this info? I mean sure, they wouldn't jump through the roof because it is another machine to optimize your game, but from my understanding Dante devkit can easily switch from Lockhart to Anaconda profile so devs can easily target both machine at once

The one and only Press Sneak Fuck, Jason Schreier! The thing was so disliked, MS pretended to kill it last year.
He again said devs dislike it a bunch late last year; I can see why a markedly worse system would play poorly with them.

Cost: smaller APU, much smaller cost. If you threw out disc-drive there is another cost effective measure. Also if you threw out disc-drive you can take bigger hit with console sold because you locked customer to buying digital games/Game Pass sub because they have no other choice.

Yeah, but again the SSD and CPU are the main cost drivers, so it might still not be much cheaper. Besides, we have no info on APU size.
Furthermore, a bigger loss on Lockhart means they can't take as big of a loss on XSX, which sounds a bit rubbish to me.

"By the time exclusives actually come, the XSX/PS5 won't be as expensive, making the Lockhart even more useless" - Yes, but when XsX and PS5 came down with price, Lockhart can came with them, right?

Yes, that is why the PS2 is the best selling system right now, as you can find it for 20 bucks!
Seriously, nobody looks at value that way, and once the consoles get more affordable, a "cheaper but worse" option will look ridiculous. Same way people buy X1S more than used OG X1, despite the latter being cheaper.

Market: Nope. It is targeted for a consumer who doesn't care about 4K or don't want to spend half of monthly income for console. I get that GAFers don't understand this, because they are "elite" but they are also small fraction of gaming population

Costumers that don't care about 4K, RT and most other next-gen functionality, don't buy consoles at launch; it's that simple.
A generation lasts 6 years, so there's literally no need to put out a cheapo box, because your goo one will go down in price.

For me, disc-less is no problem. Only thing I'm using disc drive on console is children songs on CD that i have for my daughter. But the most important part is - Microsoft isn't forcing you to disc-less console. You can still buy XsX with disc-drive if you are worried. I mean, Microsoft released XOne SAD so they know, it here is market for discless console. I'm sure that you don't have that data, or I am wrong?

MS is excluding a disc-drive from it's supposed mass-market model; putting a premium on accessing your library is quite shit no matter how you look at it.
"I don't use discs, so I don't see a problem" is a terrible POV, given many people rely on physical releases to game at all.

Imagine a "disc-only" console, meaning you can't play most of your games, with a digital+disc console costing way more, and you can begin to imagine how shitty you're being to other people's gaming experience.

We don't have data on any XBox SKU, but SAD doesn't seem to be doing so hot. It's selling worse than either PS4, Switch, X1S and likely X1X.
It's not in the Amazon top 100, unlike the X1S, and routinely has to be sold at really low prices to move units (less than 99£ with three games included last BF).

And I mean, why do you care? If this product doesn't interest you, then don't buy it. I don't care about PS VR and do you see me complaining about his existence? Nope.

Developers aren't forced to make games for PSVR to release their game.
By contrast, if you want your game to release on XSX, you need to make it run on far worse hardware, so even if I ignore it, the games I play will be affected by this unmarketable bin-sale of a box.


P.S. Cool beans how you specifically skipped my point about how MS is seemingly unwilling to show this "amazing value" box to anybody or admit it's real. If it's so good, than clearly they should show it as rebuttal to tomorrow's event!

 

[T-Cake]

I wonder if Lockhart will have the power to do the same things to BC games that Series X will. I only really want an Xbox to play some older games that aren't on PC. (But I don't want an Xbox One!)

 

[Tulipanzo]

Everything in AMD GPUs seems to be tied up to the CU count, which means if you scale down the TFlops you are automatically scaling down everything else accordingly, be it RT, machine learning, VRS, Mesh Shading etc.

Minecraft RT goes down to 1080p30fps on XSX, so I'm very curious how much further down can we scale.

Should be fine once I attach my Lockhart to my Game Gear Micro.

 

[ResilientBanana]

So it is truly real

eh, there are plenty of products that Microsoft almost made that make it into code like that. I'm not downplaying it, but it's not necessarily evidence of anything either.

 

[John254]

Also, emm, obviously UE5 isn't on current gen, or any gen because it's not out yet. You seem confused.

I meant "dual consoles in one generation" model, not UE5.

The one and only Press Sneak Fuck, Jason Schreier! The thing was so disliked, MS pretended to kill it last year.

You mean last year, when devs didn't event have devkits? Great info... As I said. If I told you need to optimize your game for another box you would for sure "hate it." But since they didn't have devkits, how would they know, how complicated it would be to port your game from XsX to Lockhart?

Seriously, nobody looks at value that way, and once the consoles get more affordable, a "cheaper but worse" option will look ridiculous. Same way people buy X1S more than used OG X1, despite the latter being cheaper.

What? Why do think, base PS4 and Xbox One are selling better even after PS4 Pro and XOneX release? Yes, genius, it is because of price. Yes. First wave of customers are always hardcore gamers who would buy everything for any price, but that doesn't mean that there isn't market for cheaper next-gen console. Maybe for you it isn't...

Developers aren't forced to make games for PSVR to release their game.

Yes. But because of PS VR, Sony needs to create or mandate creation of VR exclusive games from their studios (like Sony Japan). These devs, that could rather create classic game for me and not VR shit that i don't care about.

That was Matt Booty saying it, up to two years. The statement being vague explains people's confusion as to how long this "bullshit" policy has to last.

Yes. But it is biiig difference "One year and up to two years" and "two years". So don't spread that shit.

It's a tech demo, but it's indicative of how games will be made on the most used Engine in the world. It's indicative of high-end functionality, like virtualized geometry, which the Lockhart won't be able to use it.

I thought that PS5 is supposed to be 4K machine

 

[Thirty7ven]

So it is truly real

Of course it's real, and it's MS silver bullet for next gen. They just needed to get the hardcore out of the way, and for Sony to announce the PS5 so that they can undercut them hard with Lockhart.

 

[Tulipanzo]

I meant "dual consoles in one generation" model, not UE5.

Yeah, but there the updated console was better, not worse.
On a Lockhart-tier device a lot of what we've seen of high-end UE5 straight-up won't work, meaning extra work for devs on top of XSX optimization.

You mean last year, when devs didn't event have devkits? Great info... As I said. If I told you need to optimize your game for another box you would for sure "hate it." But since they didn't have devkits, how would they know, how complicated it would be to port your game from XsX to Lockhart?

Ah, the age old excuse of "devs didn't have devkit, so they wouldn't know!".
For anybody interested, Scarlet devkits started being sent out before E3 2019 (ramping up afterwards) with target specs known from early 2019.
Developers would have had more than enough time to familiarize themselves with the hardware by the end of 2019.
Besides, "make your game for a box with worse GPU, CPU, and RAM" is a shit idea anyway...

What? Why do think, base PS4 and Xbox One are selling better even after PS4 Pro and XOneX release? Yes, genius, it is because of price. Yes. First wave of customers are always hardcore gamers who would buy everything for any price, but that doesn't mean that there isn't market for cheaper next-gen console. Maybe for you it isn't...

The PS4 Pro, an unarguably worse device than the X1X, is outselling it, even though the Pro is often higher priced. Clearly price is not the only factor.

Again, I was the costumer for cheaper consoles, but I never bought them at launch. It's not rocket science.
People that have bought a console in 2017 or later aren't going to jump on next-gen immediately, especially when an obviously better and better marketed option (the XSX) is available.
People that prefer cheaper systems aren't stupid, and won't just get a markedly worse option because it's cheaper.

You could entice these people to jump in earlier with exclusives titles, XSX and Lockhart only; but MS aren't making any.
The Lockhart market is thus people that:
1) Don't care about any next-gen features
2) Don't care about games on these next-gen system
3) Inexplicably need to buy a new system at launch

Yes. But because of PS VR, Sony needs to create or mandate creation of VR exclusive games from their studios (like Sony Japan). These devs, that could rather create classic game for me and not VR shit that i don't care about.

Good! Now imagine every single dev on the planet is forced to make VR shit instead of games you care about.
That's what Lockhart is.

Funny this actual mandate affecting every single dev team is totes fine though.

Yes. But it is biiig difference "One year and up to two years" and "two years". So don't spread that shit.

Oh yes, what a difference! We may stop our head-ass strategy slightly earlier!
Still only console in history with no launch exclusives (not even Stadia).

I thought that PS5 is supposed to be 4K machine

Thing is, if the XSX is below 4K, the Lockhart goes below 1080p.
While XSX and PS5 can reconstruct to 4K seemigly well enough to convince DF, reconstruction to 1080p is far trickier as you have fewer pixels.

I'm sure this mythical Lockhart buyer still plays on a CRT though.

 

[Vawn]

I'm sure this mythical Lockhart buyer still plays on a CRT though.

Mythical? You realize the cheaper console will outsell the Series X several times over, right?

 

[John254]

The PS4 Pro, an unarguably worse device than the X1X, is outselling it, even though the Pro is often higher priced. Clearly price is not the only factor.

I mean. I don't even need to address all your bullshit, because if you are willing to compare sales of PS5 vs XOneX when we are talking about sales cheaper vs. more expensive consoles of same brand, i don't know what to say to you anymore.
So i will try again. Why is PS4 selling more then PS4 Pro and why is Xbox One selling more then Xbox One X?

And when you answer that question, maybe you will find, how much price matter.

I don't even know why are you here. You are clearly Sony fan, talking about console you don't care about and you are not willing to understand simple facts like "price matters"

Good! Now imagine every single dev on the planet is forced to make VR shit instead of games you care about.
That's what Lockhart is.

Wtf are you talking about? Lockhart will play same games as XsX with lower resolution/details. How it is even comparable to situation when you are making VR exclusive title that you can't play without VR?

You could entice these people to jump in earlier with exclusives titles, XSX and Lockhart only; but MS aren't making any.
The Lockhart market is thus people that:
1) Don't care about any next-gen features
2) Don't care about games on these next-gen system
3) Inexplicably need to buy a new system at launch

Please stop before you will embarrass yourself even more. Because if a console with same CPU, same SSD, and same GDDR6 ram isn't in some wonderland next-gen, just because it's target is 1080p resolution, than don't even try to argue anymore.

Mr. "Microsoft won't have any exclusives"

 

[Tulipanzo]

Mythical? You realize the cheaper console will outsell the Series X several times over, right?

Price isn't the only thing people consider when buying a console.
The PS4 and Switch are currently outselling the cheaper X1S and SAD.
The Pro is now more expensive than the X1X, an objectively better system, and it is still outselling it.

The best current example is the Switch Lite.
The Lite is a quite cheaper system, missing just one major feature, and clearly aimed at a known audience that played portable-mostly. It was still outsold by the more expensive original model.