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[3liteDragon]

I own Ryzen APU mobile and I can set CPU usage to 50% via WIndows power management in exchange for high GPU clock speed. I have GPU bias mode profile for my Ryzen APU laptop.

Is your laptop's GPU frequency running at or past 2GHz? Bruh, this dude just compared his Windows laptop to the PS5...

 

[rnlval]

Your quote comes from Digital Foundry, pet pixel counters with no knowledge of game development. People who are sponsored by Microsoft. They're as unbiased and objective as you are.

From


Mark Cerny has warned against AVX usage.

 

[rnlval]

Is your laptop's GPU frequency running at or past 2GHz? Bruh, this dude just compared his Windows laptop to the PS5...

The principle is the same but with a different desktop scale.

Somebody restricted my ability to reply back in this topic.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

nope, they have said multiple times that via smart delivery the right version of the game will be downloaded. So no duplicates.




so I am guessing you are not interested in likes of kena Or the new oddworld game?

Oddworld is a tiny game, side dish, kena is a nice side dish as well. I'm talking about the big boys, the console sellers not indies. It's always nice to have a salad next to your meaty meal, but I don't get excited about eating salad alone.

 

[Brudda26]

From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive

Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core

You do realise in the eurogamer article they state mark cerny has said the current devkits currently in use dont use smart shift hence them throttling back the CPU. They dont have to do that with smartshift. Have fun keep trying to spread FUD when the evidence is right in front of you.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The principle is the same but with a different desktop scale.

So Mark Cerny is lying?

 

[3liteDragon]

Mark Cerny has warned against AVX usage.

And?

 

[Ar¢tos]

From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive

Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core

Notthisshitagain.gif

It's quite normal for an old dev kit without Smartshift to require a CPU downclock in order to maintain a GPU at 2.23ghz because of the thermals of fixed power, so those dev kits have (had) power profiles.
Devkits with Smartshift don't have that issue.
But this is sadly going to be used ad aeternum by Xbox fanboys to spread FUD.

 

[zaitsu]

The principle is the same but with a different desktop scale.

I'm not having this conversation again. Youre sharing eurgamer article which is outdated and spreading misinformation that release console will work same way as devkit - which is not true.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Guys, we've derailed the thread too much with this leftover discussion about something we're already done with long ago. Let's move on and not give room for further trolling.

 

[3liteDragon]

The principle is the same but with a different desktop scale.

wut

 

[HAL-01]

You do realise in the eurogamer article they state mark cerny has said the current devkits currently in use dont use smart shift hence them throttling back the CPU. They dont have to do that with smartshift. Have fun keep trying to spread FUD when the evidence is right in front of you.

Cerny explicitly says developers can run both CPU and GPU at peak performance and don’t have to choose, but this guy pretends not to see

 

[FeiRR]

Guys, we've derailed the thread too much with this leftover discussion about something we've already done with long ago. Let's move on and not give room for further trolling.

I do not agree with you. Mods have derailed the discussion by lifting a ban put upon this guy. This resulted in him returning with exactly the same tactics he had had before. I understand that mods have to be forgiving and considerate but maybe it's time to put those alts to sleep and move on?

I'd love to have a civilised discussion about next gen technologies but right now it's very difficult. Wasn't this thread supposed to be closed?

 

[rnlval]

You do realise in the eurogamer article they state mark cerny has said the current devkits currently in use dont use smart shift hence them throttling back the CPU. They dont have to do that with smartshift. Have fun keep trying to spread FUD when the evidence is right in front of you.

Quote it.

With my Ryzen APU laptop, I can leave SmartShift on automatic mode (i.e. AMD Balance profile) or override it (i.e. my custom GPU bias profile).

 

[rnlval]

Cerny explicitly says developers can run both CPU and GPU at peak performance and don’t have to choose, but this guy pretends not to see

Clock speed means little to actual ALU usage. Again, refer to Mark Cerny's AVX warning!

 

[ToadMan]

From https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive

Several developers speaking to Digital Foundry have stated that their current PS5 work sees them throttling back the CPU in order to ensure a sustained 2.23GHz clock on the graphics core

What does “throttling” mean in this context in your opinion?

 

[Deleted member 775630]

I've seen particle effects in Returner and R&C, water physics in Horizon, object deformations in Allstars. I see a lot of CPU usage, you see nothing.

I've seen that too, that's all possible at the moment. Have you seen the water physics in TLOU2?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Clock speed means little to actual ALU usage. Again, refer to Mark Cerny's AVX warning!

Ok guys, he's right! We're all wrong. Let's move on.

 

[3liteDragon]

Quote it.

With my Ryzen APU laptop, I can leave SmartShift on automatic mode (i.e. AMD Balance profile) or override it (i.e. my custom GPU bias profile).

My guy, your laptop changes frequencies based on temperature (also helped by the fact that your GPU runs at much lower clocks than the PS5's) and the PS5 changes frequencies based on actual workload being processed within the CPU and GPU at that moment.

 

[rnlval]

Notthisshitagain.gif

It's quite normal for an old dev kit without Smartshift to require a CPU downclock in order to maintain a GPU at 2.23ghz because of the thermals of fixed power, so those dev kits have (had) power profiles.
Devkits with Smartshift don't have that issue.
But this is sadly going to be used ad aeternum by Xbox fanboys to spread FUD.

Not correct, the fixed frequency strategy has 2Ghz GPU and 3 Ghz CPU (cite Mark Cerny's claim)

What in the flying fuck does AVX has to do with thermals/power of NON 512bits operations??
Is this your 1st day out of trolling school?

Again, Mark Cerny has warned against AVX with APU power usage context.

From PS5 reveal video



Mark Cerny's warning on 256-bit AVX's higher power consumption




Mark Cerny: Playstation 5 which is to say we continuously run the GPU and CPU in boost mode we supply a generous amount of electrical power and then increase the frequency of GPU and CPU until they reach the capabilities of the system cooling solution it's completely different paradigm rather than running at a constant frequency and let the power vary based on the workload, we run at essentially constant power and let the frequency band vary based on the vary based on the workload.

• PS5's frequencies are based on workload.

PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive

On March 18th, Sony finally broke cover with in-depth information on the technical make-up of PlayStation 5. Expanding …

www.eurogamer.net

Cerny also stresses that power consumption and clock speeds don't have a linear relationship. Dropping frequency by 10 per cent reduces power consumption by around 27 per cent. "In general, a 10 per cent power reduction is just a few per cent reduction in frequency," Cerny emphasises.


Incidentally, 10% drop in frequency from 2230 Mhz lands on 2007 Mhz.

 

[Gamernyc78]

Just report him for fud and trolling. All the evidence is contradicting his narrative, don't waste time. He's one of those type of loonies that also say PS5 has no RT lol

 

[Ar¢tos]

Your argument is bullshit when Mark Cerny warned against AVX usage.

What in the flying fuck does AVX has to do with thermals/power of NON 512bits operations??
Is this your 1st day out of trolling school?

 

[BluRayHiDef]

so the rumours are that ms will charge US$400 for the Series X and US$200 for all-digital Lockhart

I still don't think that they'd outsell PlayStation 5. Price can't compete with a long history of high-quality exclusive games.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Just report him for fud and trolling. All the evidence is contradicting his narrative, don't waste time. He's one of those type of loonies that also say PS5 has no RT lol

Yup, he's done his FUD professionally, I give him that.

 

[Luck]

Spider-Man in 60 fps with RT? Where that info came from? Looks bullshit to me

 

[SSfox]

Chrono Trigger is still one of the greatest of all time though.

Agree, i hope someday the game will get a legit remake ala FF7 (but ffs not in an outdated Nintendo hardware)

And while we're at it, a Dragon Quest 5 remake would also be great (one of the best Jrpg of all time imo)

 

[3liteDragon]

Your argument is bullshit when Mark Cerny warned against AVX usage.

Tells everyone their argument is bullshit while yelling "AVX USAGE" 10 million times without even explaining what he means by it.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Agree, i hope someday the game will get a legit remake ala FF7 (but ffs not in an outdated Nintendo hardware)

And while were at it, a Dragon Quest 5 remake would also be great (one of the best Jrpg of all time imo)

Yup, I have no problem with remakes. I would love a remake of the original Metal Gear games in the 1980's.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

Same quality? Not sure about that, what I read was completely different there. UE5 demo was also referring to lossless polygons as well.

Now you are moving to competly other topics.

We have been talking about compression. From current knowlegde about both consoles we should expect:
(NOTE: XSX uses zlib for data and bcpack for textures. PS5 uses oodle Kraken for data and oodle texture compression for textures)
1. Compression ratio on Textures on both consoles is probably the same there might be 10% difference between both, Hard to say which one is better/worse currently.
2. Quality of Textures due to compression on both consoles is probably the same there might be 10% difference between both, Hard to say which one is better/worse currently.
3. Compression of erverything else - zlib vs kraken - Kraken compression is said to be 10% more effective overall. For example if zlib overall compression is 20% - kraken would be 30% not 22%
4. SSD Speed between both 2.4 Raw vs. 5.5 Raw - XSX has about 44% slower data transfer speed. ( latencys not included )
EDIT: I meant to say XSX data transfer speed is only 44% of PS5s Speed. Or as Great Hair stated:

It´s 2.27 times slower than the PS5 (100%). The XSX achieves 44% of the total PS5 SSD bandwidth. 100:44 = 2.27*100% = 227% faster.
[RAW]
2.4GB = 100% | 5.5GB = 227% (+117% increase)
[COMPRESSED avg.]
4.8GB = 100% | 9.0GB = 187% (+87% increase)
[HIGHLY COMPRESSED]
7.2GB = 100% | 22GB = 305% (+205% increase)

5. Adding PS5 compression advantage due to kraken for everything besides textures we could see an even slightly higher advantage in terms of speed against the xsx.

All of this is just one part of the experience though.
How much of this speed advantage will result in higher graphical output in terms of Texture Resolution or Game Resolution or Framerates etc. still depends on many other factors like the engine used, gamedesign and so on.
I would simply ask you to temper your statements because it's not that easy to extrapolate from these specs into the final experience you'll receive on either console.

So before you start mocking the XSX please wait for MS next game showcase and expected release dates. Otherwise you might be making a fool of yourself and heating up the debates in here.

Disclaimer: The above mentioned specs are from my understanding and might be completly false due to lack of my knowlegde on all of these things.

 

[SSfox]

Yup, I have no problem with remakes. I would love a remake of the original Metal Gear games in the 1980's.

Yes remake of iconic games, preferably of games that are bit old at this point.

Also the remake has to be good of course, SOTC and FF7 (part 1) are great remakes for example, but MGS Twin Snake is a very bad remake, i had to immediately replay the original after this trash thing to clean my soul.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Now you are moving to competly other topics.

We have been talking about compression. From current knowlegde about both consoles we should expect:
1. Compression ratio on Textures on both consoles is probably the same there might be 10% difference between both, Hard to say which one is better/worse currently.
2. Quality of Textures due to compression on both consoles is probably the same there might be 10% difference between both, Hard to say which one is better/worse currently.
3. Compression of erverything else - zlib vs kraken - Kraken compression is said to be 10% more effective overall. For example if zlib overall compression is 20% - kraken would be 30% not 22%
4. SSD Speed between both 2.4 Raw vs. 5.5 Raw - XSX has about 44% slower data transfer speed. ( latencys not included )
5. Adding PS5 compression advantage due to kraken for everything besides textures we could see an even slightly higher advantage in terms of speed against the xsx.

All of this is just one part of the experience though.
How much of this speed advantage will result in higher graphical output in terms of Texture Resolution or Game Resolution or Framerates etc. still depends on many other factors like the engine used, gamedesign and so on.
I would simply ask you to temper your statements because it's not that easy to extrapolate from these specs into the final experience you'll receive on either console.

So before you start mocking the XSX please wait for MS next game showcase and expected release dates. Otherwise you might be making a fool of yourself and heating up the debates in here.

Disclaimer: The above mentioned specs are from my understanding and might be completly false due to lack of my knowlegde on all of these things.

About that compression, we'll see. We all know by know that PS5 numbers are actual numbers, not theoretical. So we should not say 2.4 vs 5.5 as what's been shown by XSX doesn't suggest 2.4GB/s performance so far. We'll wait for July, gonna be fun!

 

[3liteDragon]

Clock speed means little to actual ALU usage. Again, refer to Mark Cerny's AVX warning!

If you wanna explain what you mean when talking about Mark Cerny's AVX warning, you're free to do so, we're all ears. But if your intention is to keep on repeating the same thing over and over again while derailing the thread at the same time...

 

[Snowdonhoffen]

Hmm this list still needs some work, Returnal is listed as a temporal exclusive despite being published and financed by SIE themselves. Also Observer is supposed to have RT isn't it? and this list just says 4K/60. And... are Second Extinction and The Medium fully exclusives to Series X or just timed exclusives? and I ask this because as far as I know Microsoft does not publish or finance neither of those games and we know this just leaves the door open to being released in another platform after some time e.g. another Bloober Team game that was in this same situation, Blair Witch

 

[Bo_Hazem]

If you wanna explain what you mean when talking about Mark Cerny's AVX warning, you're free to do so, we're all ears. But if your intention is to keep on repeating the same thing over and over again while derailing the thread at the same time...

A rumor says that he's not a problem around here anymore.

 

[Gamernyc78]

About that compression, we'll see. We all know by know that PS5 numbers are actual numbers, not theoretical. So we should not say 2.4 vs 5.5 as what's been shown by XSX doesn't suggest 2.4GB/s performance so far. We'll wait for July, gonna be fun!

I'll die if thy end the show with Battletoads lol ahhhh yes good times ahead indeed

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I'll die if thy end the show with Battletoads lol ahhhh yes good times ahead indeed

 

[ToadMan]

The principle is the same but with a different desktop scale.

Somebody restricted my ability to reply back in this topic.

No it’s not.

Because... say it with me ... Smartshift has no direct impact on clock speed.

If your laptop had smartshift, you wouldn’t need to adjust windows power profiles. You are manually adjusting clocks to achieve a power budget - what smartshift does is not about clocks.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Now you are moving to competly other topics.

We have been talking about compression. From current knowlegde about both consoles we should expect:
1. Compression ratio on Textures on both consoles is probably the same there might be 10% difference between both, Hard to say which one is better/worse currently.
2. Quality of Textures due to compression on both consoles is probably the same there might be 10% difference between both, Hard to say which one is better/worse currently.
3. Compression of erverything else - zlib vs kraken - Kraken compression is said to be 10% more effective overall. For example if zlib overall compression is 20% - kraken would be 30% not 22%
4. SSD Speed between both 2.4 Raw vs. 5.5 Raw - XSX has about 44% slower data transfer speed. ( latencys not included )
5. Adding PS5 compression advantage due to kraken for everything besides textures we could see an even slightly higher advantage in terms of speed against the xsx.

All of this is just one part of the experience though.
How much of this speed advantage will result in higher graphical output in terms of Texture Resolution or Game Resolution or Framerates etc. still depends on many other factors like the engine used, gamedesign and so on.
I would simply ask you to temper your statements because it's not that easy to extrapolate from these specs into the final experience you'll receive on either console.

So before you start mocking the XSX please wait for MS next game showcase and expected release dates. Otherwise you might be making a fool of yourself and heating up the debates in here.

Disclaimer: The above mentioned specs are from my understanding and might be completly false due to lack of my knowlegde on all of these things.

"Kraken is an amazing new lossless data compressor that gets both high compression and super fast decode speeds!"

Oodle Kraken

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

 

[Brudda26]

No it’s not.

Because... say it with me ... Smartshift has no direct impact on clock speed.

If your laptop had smartshift, you
wouldn’t need to adjust windows power profiles. You are manually doing what smartshift optimises automatically.

What's even funnier is unless he literally just bought a laptop in the past couple of weeks he wont have a smartshift laptop. There is only 1 device currently on the market that uses smartshift and it only came out a couple of weeks or so ago. AMD have even said it will be the only smartshift device this year bar the PS5.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

"Kraken is an amazing new lossless data compressor that gets both high compression and super fast decode speeds!"

Oodle Kraken

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

This is oodle kraken - not oodle texture compression.

Oodle Texture Compression

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

Oodle Texture Rate Distortion Optimization (RDO), sometimes known as "super compression", lets you encode BCN textures with your choice of size-quality tradeoff. Oodle Texture RDO searches the space of possible ways to convert your source texture into BCN, finding encodings that are both high visual quality and smaller after compression. RDO can often find near lossless encodings that save 10% in compressed size, and with only small visual difference can save 20-50%.

 

[ToadMan]

What's even funnier is unless he literally just bought a laptop in the past couple of weeks he wont have a smartshift laptop. There is only 1 device currently on the market that uses smartshift and it only came out a couple of weeks or so ago. AMD have even said it will be the only smartshift device this year bar the PS5.

Yes... he didn’t say his laptop had smartshift... but he was implying it a fair bit.

As it happens the dell g5 seems to outperform its “normal” gpu and cpu capability using smartshift so I assume AMD have a point.... Unfortunately that laptop has other deficiencies so it’s not the best example.

Anyway I don’t really mind what the end impact of smartshift is - it’s just annoying to me when people mix and match the tech so loosely and simplify everything down to one simple metric or bullet point when the variables are much more complex than that.

 

[ksdixon]

Just looks this compression rates:

127 MB block compressed GPU textures, mix of BC1-7

78 MB with zip/zlib/deflate

70 MB with Oodle Kraken

40 MB with Oodle Texture + Kraken

https://cbloomrants.blogspot.com/2020/06/oodle-texture-slashes-game-sizes.html

Soo... is this like a legit tech? I totally missed the memo on this and it seems to have popped-up out of nowhere yesterday

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This is oodle kraken - not oodle texture compression.

Oodle Texture Compression

RAD Game Tools' web page. RAD makes Bink Video, the Telemetry Performance Visualization System, and Oodle Data Compression - all popular video game middleware.

www.radgametools.com

Modern games use a huge amount of BCN texture data. Many games are reaching 100 GB, and 80% or more of that size is in BCN textures. Shrinking the BCN textures to half their previous compressed size will make a dramatic difference in game sizes. While Kraken is a huge technological advance over zip/zlib, it only saved 8 MB in the example above (this is partly because BCN texture data is difficult for generic compressors to work with), while Oodle Texture saved an additional 30 MB, nearly 4X more than Kraken alone. The size savings possible with Oodle Texture are huge, much bigger than we've seen from traditional compressors, and you don't need to accept painful quality loss to get these savings.

RAD Game Tools: Introducing Oodle Texture Compression

http://www.radgametools.com/oodletexture.htm

www.resetera.com

Let's not suggest that they're both the same. It's still fresh out of the oven, give it sometime and more devs will talk about it.

 

[3liteDragon]

Somebody restricted my ability to reply back in this topic.

 

[Kise Ryota]

So we should not say 2.4 vs 5.5 as what's been shown by XSX doesn't suggest 2.4GB/s performance so far.

And what would be this that has been shown?

 

[Ar¢tos]

The principle is the same but with a different desktop scale.

Somebody restricted my ability to reply back in this topic.

That kinda tends to happen when you spew nonsense after nonsense, but don't worry, we will manage to continue the discussion without you somehow.

 

[Great Hair]

SSD Speed between both 2.4 Raw vs. 5.5 Raw - XSX has about 44% slower data transfer speed.

It´s 2.27 times slower than the PS5 (100%). The XSX achieves 44% of the total PS5 SSD bandwidth. 100:44 = 2.27*100% = 227% faster.

[RAW]
2.4GB = 100% | 5.5GB = 227% (+117% increase)
[COMPRESSED avg.]
4.8GB = 100% | 9.0GB = 187% (+87% increase)
[HIGHLY COMPRESSED]
7.2GB = 100% | 22GB = 305% (+205% increase)

 

[Ar¢tos]

I'll die if thy end the show with Battletoads lol ahhhh yes good times ahead indeed

Atm only* a new Fable will change my plans of PS5 - PSVR2 - XSX.
A new Fable is long due!

*Another good new IP might do the same.

 

[Great Hair]

• 4K native and barely any raytracing vs FHD native and lots of raytracing

I prefer the latter option. Gimmie that RT Gi at 1080p instead of 4K with no RT at all.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

It´s 2.27 times slower than the PS5 (100%). The XSX achieves 44% of the total PS5 SSD bandwidth. 100:44 = 2.27*100% = 227% faster.

[RAW]
2.4GB = 100% | 5.5GB = 227% (+117% increase)
[COMPRESSED avg.]
4.8GB = 100% | 9.0GB = 187% (+87% increase)
[HIGHLY COMPRESSED]
7.2GB = 100% | 22GB = 305% (+205% increase)

Thanks yeah my wording was off and I corrected myself and also added your quote. I hope this will clarify my statement.
No need to spread wrong information/speculation/calculations.

Thank you for pointing this out. I hope you don't mind me adding your correction to my original post.