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Microsoft Explains The Xbox Series X's High-Speed Secret Sauce

The user I quoted said 3x faster. Right after his post someone else said the number(difference in their max throughput speed) kept increasing by the day. I quoted 3x to correct it to 4x. I got a reply then increased 4x to 10x lol.

I've seen some increasing of values of late. Like increasing the speed from 4.8 GB/s to 12 GB/s.

Just trying to find out what the truth actually is but from what I'm seeing it's better to just rely on the specifications that they have us.
 
The Sampler feedback is very interesting they seem to have a way to help with just in time loading of textures which they say can free up memory it sounds like a big deal there where effectively acts as a multiplier for available memory

And the fact that they're stressing it as being sustained performance as well like the gpu/cpu performance makes for an incredibly optimized, efficient and balanced machine.
 
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Deto

Banned
People were saying XSX is all about bruteforce, but VA achieve the same goal with less. According to Ronald SFS is effective 2.5x I/O and RAM multiplier, because I/O has to load 2.5x less data.

2.4 GB/s SSD + 2:1 compression (4.8 GB/s) + 2.5x SFS gain gives impressive 12GB/s and more if data happen to compress particulary well (above 2:1).



I wonder why Sony doesn't go around saying that it invented a magic software that triples the TF of the PS5 as well.

I think because each company knows the type of public that consumes its products.

if you are a lunatic, believe in magic software
MS: 5.5gb / s
lunatic: MS LIE, 12GB / s


Impressive as with each new generation and always the same side with delusions.

2013:

MS: 1.3TF
lunátic: hidden gpu 3TF

2020: magical software that breaks the hardware boundary.

it is always the same shit, always this pile of delirium that makes you want to throw up.




you have to be really stupid to think that MS announced 5.5GB / s compressed on the SSD, but actually delivers 12GB/s


it looks like conspiracy theory, like 2013, MS announced 1.3TF not to mention the hidden GPU to surprise Sony by releasing it in 2014.


now MS has a master plan to announce 5.5GB / s, but when you use it actually delivers 12GB / s


wanted to know why there are so crazy on the side of the xbox ... awesome ....
 
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Ascend

Member
Yes, the XSX decompression block has a max throughput of 6(ish)GB/s
That`s the theoretical maximum bandwith the XSX can load data into memory. Nothing else (compression ratio, SFS Etc.) can change that.
Ugh... Ok. Let me try and explain things in baby steps, because apparently that is needed here....

Imagine you have 10 textures.
With your current I/O system, you can transfer 2 textures per second.
With compression/decompression, you reduce the size of textures to half.
That means that you can now transfer 4 textures per second with the same I/O system.
That is the normal way of doing things.
Now imagine that you have a way to predict exactly which texture you would need of those 4 textures, and say you need only 2 of them rather than needing to load all 4.
That means you're loading half of what you would normally load, meaning you can effectively transfer 8 textures rather than 4 with the same I/O system.

Get it now? They stack.
 
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oldergamer

Member
Lets look at it a different way. instead of saying it effectively doubles memory, just say it saves memory and allows for higher res, and double the amount of textures to fit into 16GB
 

On Demand

Banned
I've seen some increasing of values of late. Like increasing the speed from 4.8 GB/s to 12 GB/s.

Just trying to find out what the truth actually is but from what I'm seeing it's better to just rely on the specifications that they have us.

Exactly

SX 2.4gb raw PS5 5.5gb raw
SX 4.8gb compressed PS5 9gb compressed
SX 6gb compression software PS5 22gb Kraken.

Raw numbers are pretty much what you can expect all the time. The compressed numbers depends on the game and how the developer compresses their assets. The decompression software max number will be rare.
 
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oldergamer

Member
I wonder why Sony doesn't go around saying that it invented a magic software that triples the TF of the PS5 as well.

I think because each company knows the type of public that consumes its products.

if you are a lunatic, believe in magic software
MS: 5.5gb / s
lunatic: MS LIE, 12GB / s


Impressive as with each new generation and always the same side with delusions.

2013:

MS: 1.3TF
lunátic: hidden gpu 3TF

2020: magical software that breaks the hardware boundary.

it is always the same shit, always this pile of delirium that makes you want to throw up.
quit being an idiot. What part of "effective" is difficult to understand. They are using LESS memory and can fit twice as many textures in RAM ( effectively doubling the storage space )
 

Dory16

Banned
But feeding into Sony's SSD comparison will continue to be a losing battle for Microsoft, just like when Microsoft fed into the format wars with HD-DVD vs Blu Ray.

I don't understand how detailing the I/O architecture that they have worked on for years is "feeding into Sony's SSD comparison. They are not allowed to mention that they have a SSD too or a hardware decompression block? And when Cerny says they have a GPU and even tells us we're better off with fewer CUs it's not feeding into any comparison?

I'm not caught up in the daily console warring and next-gen speculation, but I was watching and discussing both reveals.

Ok.
 

Deto

Banned
quit being an idiot. What part of "effective" is difficult to understand. They are using LESS memory and can fit twice as many textures in RAM ( effectively doubling the storage space )



MS is lying ... announce 5.5GB / s but in practice it is 12GB / s

if you believe that, you are so stupid that stupidity makes you unable to know that you are stupid.

This topic is good to note which brand of console has the lunatics ...

MS: 5.5GB / s and peak of 6GB / s

"xbox fan": lie, 12GB/s in practice.

Sony: 9GB / s, peak 22GB / s

Sony fan: 9GB / s
 
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Ascend

Member
MS is lying ... announce 5.5GB / s but in practice it is 12GB / s

if you believe that, you are so stupid that stupidity makes you unable to know that you are stupid.
They don't want to be misleading. It is likely that the numbers for SFS vary quite a bit, which is why they don't want to give a specific bandwidth number associated with it. It will also depend on developer implementation most likely.

In practice, the XSX SSD will never be able to transfer more than 2.4GB/s, and the PS5 SSD will never be able to transfer more than 5.5GB/s.
Compression allows you to have two textures for the size of one so to speak (for simplicity's sake), or 20 for the size of 10. That's where the 4.8GB/s of the XSX comes from. The PS5's compression is less efficient, meaning it doesn't reach two for the size of one, but 16 textures for the size of 10, compared to the XSX's 20 for the size of 10.
On top of that, the XSX discards the textures that will not be used. It means that out of those 20 that you were going to use, you're using only 8, which leaves room for another 12.
 

Dory16

Banned
Ehh.. NO
Read what he said.
He corrected the original tweets question regarding SFS.
What he said was stacking was regarding raw readspeeds and compression.
SFS (if reading from SSD) wont magically extend SXS bandwith limitations. Compression will, but not anything else.
Even without being an expert I understand that if you need to load 2.5x less textures to achieve rendering output A, that's more than 60% of your bandwith that you have freed up to load even more textures, hence the bandwith multiplier effect. Doesn't mean the bandwith gets bigger, it's just more efficiently utilised. If you need to load 1GB at 2.4 GB/s where others need to load 3GB at 5.5GB/s, they have over double your bandwith but you are certainly catching up big time and that's leaving the decompression out of the equation. At least that's what I understand from Stanard's tweet.
 
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oldergamer

Member
MS is lying ... announce 5.5GB / s but in practice it is 12GB / s

if you believe that, you are so stupid that stupidity makes you unable to know that you are stupid.

This topic is good to note which brand of console has the lunatics ...

MS: 5.5GB / s and peak of 6GB / s

"xbox fan": lie, 12GB/s in practice.

Sony: 9GB / s, peak 22GB / s

Sony fan: 9GB / s
Wrong. You would have to be stupid to ignore basic information in front of your face.

1. typically only 1/3rd of texture are ever visible, despite the entire texture being held in memory
2. Divide up the texture into small tiles, and load only the tile you need ( as close to that 1/3rd as possible)
3. Notice how you are now using less system ram for the same texture

go educate yourself instead of being ignorant.
 
Half the speed = 50%
Reality though: 5.5/2.4 = 2.29x = 229% slower than the PS5

So roughly 50%. Or 2.4/5.5 = 0.44 or 44%.

I don't think it'll be much of a difference in actual gameplay. Same with graphics. It'll be interesting nitpicking the differences, but both camps have very capable systems that will solve the very same issues.
 

oldergamer

Member
If the company advertises 5.5GB/s but in practice it is 12GB/s; why can't another company advertise 10TF which in practice is 30TF?
Thats another stupid post. Optimized hardware/software can save on bandwidth, there isn't much that you can do outside of adding hardware ( or using different more powerful hardware) to make your floating point rating higher after the fact. If it bothers you that sony has the less powerful console, then you probably need to take a break from the console warring
 
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pawel86ck

Banned
I wonder why Sony doesn't go around saying that it invented a magic software that triples the TF of the PS5 as well.

I think because each company knows the type of public that consumes its products.

if you are a lunatic, believe in magic software
MS: 5.5gb / s
lunatic: MS LIE, 12GB / s


Impressive as with each new generation and always the same side with delusions.

2013:

MS: 1.3TF
lunátic: hidden gpu 3TF

2020: magical software that breaks the hardware boundary.

it is always the same shit, always this pile of delirium that makes you want to throw up.




you have to be really stupid to think that MS announced 5.5GB / s compressed on the SSD, but actually delivers 12GB/s


it looks like conspiracy theory, like 2013, MS announced 1.3TF not to mention the hidden GPU to surprise Sony by releasing it in 2014.


now MS has a master plan to announce 5.5GB / s, but when you use it actually delivers 12GB / s


wanted to know why there are so crazy on the side of the xbox ... awesome ....
MS never wrote about 2'nd GPU in xbox one. Now MS (Jason Ronald) say what SFS does in very simple language.

This innovation results in approximately 2.5x the effective I/O throughput and memory usage above and beyond the raw hardware capabilities on average.
If you dont believe Jason Ronald that's fine, but dont compare it to such absurd things like 2'nd GPU because you are being disingenuous.

Like it or not, but MS has clearly the upper hand in software, and when Sony had to build GPU with 36 CUs because of BC reasons, MS wasnt limited. In PS3 days Sony even build entire PS2 into PS3 just to run BC games, while X360 was already using software.
 

anothertech

Member
So like Sony's but worse?

Honestly, Secret Sauce, Cloud Power, dGPU, Custom Silicone, Stacked Chips... it's all buzzwords.

Nobody really cares till we see it in action. It will either be great, or be this gen's cloud power lol.

DF Articles the next few years will be so fun to read.
 

Deto

Banned
Thats another stupid post. Optimized hardware/software can save on bandwidth, there isn't much that you can do outside of adding hardware ( or using different more powerful hardware) to make your floating point rating higher after the fact. If it bothers you that sony has the less powerful console, then you probably need to take a break from the console warring


MS never wrote about 2'nd GPU in xbox one. Now MS (Jason Ronald) say what SFS does in very simple language.


If you dont believe Jason Ronald that's fine, but dont compare it to such absurd things like 2'nd GPU because you are being disingenuous.

Like it or not, but MS has clearly the upper hand in software, and when Sony had to build GPU with 36 CUs because of BC reasons, MS wasnt limited. In PS3 days Sony even build entire PS2 into PS3 just to run BC games, while X360 was already using software.


Thats another stupid post. Optimized hardware/software can save on bandwidth, there isn't much that you can do outside of adding hardware ( or using different more powerful hardware) to make your floating point rating higher after the fact. If it bothers you that sony has the less powerful console, then you probably need to take a break from the console warring




"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power."

magic cloud, the return.

Exactly the same thing as 2013.

2013: we have the cloud that increases power in practice.

2020: we have the software that increases the speed in the practice of SSD.
 
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magic cloud, the return.

Magic cloud? Secret gpu? What? The Velocity is efficient software. Multipliers are the same as hidden gpu's and the cloud now? When did MS claim to have a hidden gpu in the XB1?

Their is even a respected dev stating Velocity is XSX's darkhorse. MS is the biggest software company in the world. Making hardware more efficient via software is their specialty. Stop with the nonsense.

MS has some nice engineering behind there SSD via Velocity. Take a chill pill. No need to get so worked up over positive XSX news.
 
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Deto

Banned
Magic cloud? Secret gpu? What? The Velocity is efficient software. Multipliers are the same as hidden gpu's and the cloud now? When did MS claim to have a hidden gpu?

Their is even a respected dev stating Velocity is MS darkhorse. MS is the biggest software company in the world. Making hardware more efficient via software is their specialty. Stop with the nonsense.

"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power."

again the same tactics, the same idiots repeating the same shit.

2013: Xbox with less processing?
Don't worry, the cloud has infinite additional processing power

2020: Xbox with less SSD bandwidth?
Don't worry, the power of the additional software.
 
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"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power." again the same tactics, the same idiots repeating the same shit.

again the same tactics, the same idiots repeating the same shit.

2013: Xbox with less processing?

Don't worry, the cloud has infinite additional processing power

2020: Xbox with less SSD bandwidth?

Don't worry, the power of the additional software.

Multipliers are not the same as the cloud. The cloud is an entirely different topic. It worked in theory, but required too many resources, too expensive, and required extremely good internet to be possible, so MS decided to ditch it.

You're one triggered ,emotional fanboy i must say.
 
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"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power."

again the same tactics, the same idiots repeating the same shit.

2013: Xbox with less processing?
Don't worry, the cloud has infinite additional processing power

2020: Xbox with less SSD bandwidth?
Don't worry, the power of the additional software.
You guys act like the xbox ssd is a 5200rpm mechanical drive. It's past the point of fanboyism stupidity at this point.
 

ZehDon

Gold Member
Wild thread.

If I'm understanding Microsoft's details correctly, they haven't increased the speed of their I/O (though, maybe reduced the latency?) with witchcraft, so it can only transfer the advertised raw speed of 2.4gb/s | 4.8gb/s compressed. However, the I/O stack, including their software, ensures that composition of those GBs is more intelligently constructed than in previous generations. So, they'll still only transfer the 2.4gb/s, but it'll be the exact 2.4gb/s you need, rather than needing to load 5gb to get access to the 2.4gb you need.

If so, then this was my initial take away from their DirectStorage announcement, but still good to see to clarified and confirmed.
 

RaySoft

Member
Ugh... Ok. Let me try and explain things in baby steps, because apparently that is needed here....

Imagine you have 10 textures.
With your current I/O system, you can transfer 2 textures per second.
With compression/decompression, you reduce the size of textures to half.
That means that you can now transfer 4 textures per second with the same I/O system.
That is the normal way of doing things.
Now imagine that you have a way to predict exactly which texture you would need of those 4 textures, and say you need only 2 of them rather than needing to load all 4.
That means you're loading half of what you would normally load, meaning you can effectively transfer 8 textures rather than 4 with the same I/O system.

Get it now? They stack.
Baby steps.. okay
Interesting you choose to use quantity instead of size, wich all data is measured in?
Instead of having 10 independent textures, the SFS would do a better job if all those were the same file;-)
Regardless, It wouldnt load it faster than the decompression blocks max theoretical throughput anyways, wich is 6,x GB/s
 
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Deto

Banned
Multipliers are not the same as the cloud. The cloud is an entirely different topic. It worked in theory, but required too many resources, too expensive, and required extremely good internet to be possible, so MS decided to ditch it.



again the same tactics, the same idiots repeating the same shit.



And the guy believes in the power of the cloud AUHUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUHA

If MS shit you eat and burp "who doesn't like to eat shit is a fanboy"



You're one triggered ,emotional fanboy i must say.



I will give you a tip:

pisses people off = people come up to attack you

you are disgusting and people are disgusted by you = they walk away.

I imagine that by the time you spend on the internet on this forum, it is already an indication of what kind of person you are.
 
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Ascend

Member
and you also believed in the hidden GPU in 2013?

Where is the theory that in practice the PS5 GPU is 30TF
I'll simply repeat that they don't want to be misleading. All I will say is that they confirmed the 4.8GB/s is conservative, as another example of them not wanting to be misleading in what they provide as specs for their console;

 

Great Hair

Banned
So roughly 50%. Or 2.4/5.5 = 0.44 or 44%.

I don't think it'll be much of a difference in actual gameplay. Same with graphics. It'll be interesting nitpicking the differences, but both camps have very capable systems that will solve the very same issues.

The assets that can be "streamed" will/may be affected. What ever taxes the XSX to 100% (ssd), it only eats up 43% of the PS5 SSD leaving reserves for more objects or higher-detailed assets like :

... a shoe with close to 1mill. polygons and 8K textures (150MB heavy). :messenger_beaming:

5.5GB vs 2.4GB (2.29x) (raw)
9GB vs 6GB (1.50x) (compressed)
22GB vs 6GB (3.66x) (extremely compressed)
There´s a 1.50x (+50%) to 2.29x (+129%) improvement for the PS5 SSD.
 
Nothing can be less than 100% slower. I hope you understand that 100% slower means it "stands still", right? Anything more than 100% slower means going backwards. So basically you're saying the XSX is 129% faster in the opposite direction...


Says the one liking a post claiming the XSX is 229% slower...

No. It's literally a matter of how you do the math and present the difference. He's saying the PS5 SSD is 229% faster. Which is true as far as the raw data. That also means that the XSX is 40% slower. So to take it into account physically, If there is one second loading times for the PS5 then the XSX would take 2.29 seconds or just over 1 second slower. If the Xbox loads in one second which it probably will it just means the PS5 will load it in .44 seconds. The difference is actually pretty negligible and I don't even think it will be as great as those raw numbers suggest.
 

Deto

Banned
I'll simply repeat that they don't want to be misleading. All I will say is that they confirmed the 4.8GB/s is conservative, as another example of them not wanting to be misleading in what they provide as specs for their console;





"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power."

exactly the same thing as the power of the cloud in 2013

I bet you at the time repeated the same arguments defending the cloud
 

Lethal01

Member
I've seen some increasing of values of late. Like increasing the speed from 4.8 GB/s to 12 GB/s.

Just trying to find out what the truth actually is but from what I'm seeing it's better to just rely on the specifications that they have us.

The 12GB/s figure comes from an official statement from Microsoft stating that the SFS makes their SSD effectively 2.5 times faster than if it wasn't available since they can only load in the texture data they need instead of the entire files. The speed doesn't actually increase but for real ingame scenarios you would need a 12GB/s SSD if you didn't have SFS.

We don't really have any reason to think that PS5 doesn't have an equivalent system. I mostly said it as a joke about how fast people come to conclusions.

This really isn't new info either and that actual speed stay the same treating it like a speed increase just makes it easier to say. Just like the ps5 ssd bandwidth doesn't actually go beyond 5GB/s even when it works with compressed data.
 
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Ascend

Member
Baby steps.. okay
Interesting you choose to use quantity instead of size, wich all data is measured in?
That's for ease of understanding. Nice simple numbers to avoid confusion.

Instead of having 10 independent textures, the SFS would do a better job if all those were the same file;-)
I have no idea what you're referring to here. With SSDs, duplicate files are unnecessary. So it goes without saying that there will be no duplicates.

Regardless, It wouldnt load it faster than the decompression blocks max theoretical throughput anyways, wich is 6,x GB/s
Depends on what you mean with loading "faster". The 'speed' doesn't really say anything, other than how much data you can transfer. I think I already explained quite clearly that neither are in practice going to deliver more than their raw specs.


"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power."

exactly the same thing as the power of the cloud in 2013

I bet you at the time repeated the same arguments defending the cloud
I'll help you;

Nothing there. Try again... And just as a reference...

Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a type of informal fallacy where irrelevant adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say.
Poisoning the well can take the form of an (explicit or implied) argument, and is considered by some philosophers an informal fallacy.[1]

A poisoned-well "argument" has the following form:

1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented by another. (e.g. "Before you listen to my opponent, may I remind you that he has been in jail")2. Therefore, the claims made by person A will be false.[2]




Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy, if the argument attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.[1][2]

This form of the argument is as follows:

Group A makes a particular claim.
Group B, which is currently viewed negatively by the recipient, makes the same claim as Group A.
Therefore, Group A is viewed by the recipient of the claim as associated with Group B, and inherits how negatively viewed it is.



Go bother someone else. I don't have time for your transparent fallacies.
 

Dory16

Banned
"the cloud brings infinite additional processing power."

again the same tactics, the same idiots repeating the same shit.

2013: Xbox with less processing?
Don't worry, the cloud has infinite additional processing power

2020: Xbox with less SSD bandwidth?
Don't worry, the power of the additional software.
Dude you realise the thread is about an xbox component right? We get it, you distrust Microsoft. How about joining a thread about a product/brand that you enjoy?
 
You know, it’s a little disappointing that this thread is so thoroughly derailed that honest posters have to spend all of their time simply defending the EXISTENCE of things like SFS. It’s just cartoonishly absurd the noise of all of that misinformation and console warring.

Here’s an actual discussion topic. I’m inclined to take Microsoft at their word on the benefits of SFS (2.5X multiplyer on their already compressed SSD bandwidth). However, my understanding of SFS is that it:
  1. Requires your game to utilize mip-tile texture streaming from disk in your game engine.
  2. Requires you to integrate Sampler Feedback Streaming into your streaming solution.
So even in the case of SFS vaulting the effective bandwidth and memory past PS5, unlike the PS5, theres potentially quite a bit of work required to take advantage of this technology vs. what appears to be performance that applies out of the box on PS5. For cross-platform titles, it could require two pretty different texture streaming systems to be used - one for Series X and one for every other platform. This could result in SFS not being used as often in 3rd party titles.

Im curious if MS has taken steps to make implementing SFS easier (like some simple drop-in module for existing engines) and what kind of uptake they are seeing.
 
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quest

Not Banned from OT
You know, it’s a little disappointing that this thread is so thoroughly derailed that honest posters have to spend all of their time simply defending the EXISTENCE of things like SFS. It’s just cartoonishly absurd the noise of all of that misinformation and console warring.

Here’s an actual discussion topic. I’m inclined to take Microsoft at their word on the benefits of SFS (2.5X multiplyer on their already compressed SSD bandwidth). However, my understanding of SFS is that it:
  1. Requires your game to utilize mip-tile texture streaming from disk in your game engine.
  2. Requires you to integrate Sampler Feedback Streaming into your streaming solution.
So even in the case of SFS vaulting the effective bandwidth and memory past PS5, unlike the PS5, theres potentially quite a bit of work required to take advantage of this technology vs. what appears to be performance that applies out of the box on PS5. For cross-platform titles, it could require two pretty different texture streaming systems to be used - one for Series X and one for every other platform. This could result in SFS not being used as often in 3rd party titles.

Im curious if MS has taken steps to make implementing SFS easier (like some simple drop-in module for existing engines) and what kind of uptake they are seeing.
So riddle me this what is likely going to be adopted on PC faster? Intel and AMD spending big bucks on each CPU-mb to implement Sonys expensive hardware IO and the average PC to have a SSD as fast as the PS5 or gpu makers adding SSF to their GPUs and users having SSD around the speed of the series x snd software io solution of velocity? The Microsoft way will be adopted over what Sony is doing out of cost pure and simple. So doing ssf on the series x won't be extra work since it will be needed on the PC anyways.



Sampler Feedback
Sampler Feedback enables better visual quality, shorter load times, and less stuttering.
 
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Ugh... Ok. Let me try and explain things in baby steps, because apparently that is needed here....

Imagine you have 10 textures.
With your current I/O system, you can transfer 2 textures per second.
With compression/decompression, you reduce the size of textures to half.
That means that you can now transfer 4 textures per second with the same I/O system.
That is the normal way of doing things.
Now imagine that you have a way to predict exactly which texture you would need of those 4 textures, and say you need only 2 of them rather than needing to load all 4.
That means you're loading half of what you would normally load, meaning you can effectively transfer 8 textures rather than 4 with the same I/O system.

Get it now? They stack.

Actually now thinking of it for a brief second, I wonder if this is all some method inspired in part by speculative execution branch prediction, which you see in CPUs from Intel and AMD:

Speculative execution is an optimization technique where a computer system performs some task that may not be needed. Work is done before it is known whether it is actually needed, so as to prevent a delay that would have to be incurred by doing the work after it is known that it is needed. If it turns out the work was not needed after all, most changes made by the work are reverted and the results are ignored.

The objective is to provide more concurrency if extra resources are available. This approach is employed in a variety of areas, including branch prediction in pipelined processors, value prediction for exploiting value locality,[1] prefetching memory and files, and optimistic concurrency control in database systems.[2][3][4]

Notice the mention of prefetching there. We know SFS is (along with other parts of XvA) focused on cutting down the prefetching window to try getting texture streaming as "just in time" as possible. Now, actual just-in-time isn't possible with NAND levels of storage, but if you're focusing on reducing factors that contribute to latency, you can cut the prefetch window down a lot.

SFS (and maybe SF as well), IIRC, basically operate by having a means of developers to provide some type of sample batch of texture data to let the system know what is to be used. In the case the higher-quality mipmap isn't ready in time the system can fall back to the lower-level mip and blend in to the higher-level one when it's available. This is done with some custom hardware on the GPU.

This approach flips a few things compared to speculative branch prediction/speculative execution but the idea of attempting to optimize the pipeline by preventing delays via doing work before a particular data asset is needed, as close to the time it is actually required as possible, shares some inspiration with SE, even if SE is (to my knowledge) a CPU thing, traditionally. And attempting to reduce the window of frames between preparing for placing texture data for a prefetch and the texture actually being fetched for stream by the GPU, that requires very good latency figures.

Of course speaking of speculative execution we know there's a big controversy going on there with the exploits like Meltdown, so uh hopefully if MS's approach is doing something to that effect here (I've been thinking those ARM cores that were mentioned by an Indian AMD engineer's LinkedIn months back might be customizations for the GPU as well), the security is on-point and unauthorized exploits don't become a thing xD.

(Honestly tho speculative execution itself is not the problem that's led to those exploits, it's mainly Intel's architecture design in enforcing SE why their processors in particular have been so damn vulnerable. AMD's for example are much less vulnerable to those same exploits. Neither system's using Intel obviously so I think that's worth keeping in mind).

O OptimistPrime Well like quest was speaking of, most if not all of XvA will also be deployed on PC within a year or so. That increases the net of hardware supporting it by a metric ton. I would also expect it within whatever server and data center markets you'll find MS's equipment in, such as Azure, since it's designed for scalability and workign with a number of drive implementations.

I do think there are aspects of Sony's approach that will be easier to leverage, especially considering if a game is using UE5 as Epic have gone to great lengths to rewrite parts of the I/O to support Sony's solution (but not at the expense of other solutions, mind). OTOH, I think there are some aspects of Microsoft's solution that will be easier to leverage, it just all really comes down to what specific things developers want to do.

Sony's approach seems to automate more of the process however, which helps with easing developers in. So there is that to take into consideration. Just that I don't think it's going to be night and day difference in ease of use between the two solutions. They aught to be very close to each other in terms of dev friendliness, with for some various workloads perhaps Sony's having the advantage, particularly again with specific engines leveraging it like UE5.
 
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supernova8

Banned
So something I have trouble wrapping my head around:

PS5 seems to have a better SSD in terms of being able to load/unload data into RAM faster (and more of it?), but Xbox Series X appears to have a more powerful GPU. Granted that the PS5 GPU is clocked higher, the XSX GPU has more CUs, and looking at the TFLOPs, XSX is still better in terms of GPU performance alone. So.... PS5 can load more stuff into memory to throw onto the screen but surely XSX has more horsepower in terms of actually putting on screen. On the flipside, the XSX GPU may be powerful but if the system cannot feed the GPU data, it's performance left on the table?

I'm going to make a poor attempt at an analogy (feel free to correct me, I really am struggling):

If we considered the PS5 and XSX as two pairs of painters... each pair has a person who does the painting and a person who refills the paint/changes out the paint.

- PS5 has a great paint supplier who can refill/change out paint super fast, the painter himself is also pretty quick but he has a small foam roller.
- XSX has a relatively slower paint supplier who takes his time to refill/change out paint, but the painter has a much wider foam roller, and can also add some nice paint effects without having to sacrifice energy.

Both systems have their ups and downs but both are very powerful.

Am I on the right lines or am I totally confused?
 

NullZ3r0

Banned
You’re being fooled by marketing. Again.

Whatever software and hardware implementation MS is doing the PS5’s SSD already is doing also and already takes into account. Which means by naturally having the faster drive and more custom I/O, it will also be better and faster at those things. There are features of the PS5 SSD that SX doesn’t even have. Among one of them being 6 priority levels.

All this velocity and samplers whatever is just buzzwords marketing to try and make up(they can’t) for having a slower drive.



Do you really believe that? Heck no. Whether speed, texture data or whatever else. There’s nothing the SX SSD and I/O does better than the PS5 SSD.

Congratulations. You’re supposed to be lost and making that suggestion.

MS marketing 101.
So Sony's speaking the gospel and MS is fooling us with marketing.

Did Mark Cerny raise the dead and walk on water? Because for a mediocre game developer and mere Sony contractor, they sure are putting him on a pedestal over a company that basically made the computer what it is today.

I hope MS brings the thunder next week.
 

oldergamer

Member
The analogies don't work if you don't consider all the parts.

Xbox has a more powerful GPU
Xbox has more shader units (also more complex shaders)
Xbox has higher bandwidth to the GPU
Xbox has a slower SSD (but possibly lower latency)
Xbox has slower max decompression speed
Xbox has higher compression ratio

At one point we were estimating xbox used a Phision custom NVME drive and based on the type of chips its using, it actually should have a rating of 3.2GB (peak) instead of 2.4GB sustained. However, we don't have any official confirmation on that. One thing for certain is the numbers sony gives are theoretical peak, and not sustained transfer rates. We're doing an apples to oranges comparison

Anyway, beyond the simple fact both have an SSD, there are a lot of differences between the hardware used. All of which could impact or help performance.
 
So something I have trouble wrapping my head around:

PS5 seems to have a better SSD in terms of being able to load/unload data into RAM faster (and more of it?), but Xbox Series X appears to have a more powerful GPU. Granted that the PS5 GPU is clocked higher, the XSX GPU has more CUs, and looking at the TFLOPs, XSX is still better in terms of GPU performance alone. So.... PS5 can load more stuff into memory to throw onto the screen but surely XSX has more horsepower in terms of actually putting on screen. On the flipside, the XSX GPU may be powerful but if the system cannot feed the GPU data, it's performance left on the table?

I'm going to make a poor attempt at an analogy (feel free to correct me, I really am struggling):

If we considered the PS5 and XSX as two pairs of painters... each pair has a person who does the painting and a person who refills the paint/changes out the paint.

- PS5 has a great paint supplier who can refill/change out paint super fast, the painter himself is also pretty quick but he has a small foam roller.
- XSX has a relatively slower paint supplier who takes his time to refill/change out paint, but the painter has a much wider foam roller, and can also add some nice paint effects without having to sacrifice energy.

Both systems have their ups and downs but both are very powerful.

Am I on the right lines or am I totally confused?

In terms of keeping the GPU fed, that is much more dependent upon memory bandwidth, of which XSX has a slight advantage.

A fast SSD can be thought of more as letting you extend your RAM pool, so in your painter analogy the PS5‘s supplier would be slightly slower at refilling, but the supplier can more quickly supply new and different colors whereas the XSX supplier takes longer to switch out the colors.
 
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