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[sandkiller]

It's only missing the "router" ps5 and the "party lights" gamer pc in that picture

 

[PSX]

I am sure AMD they got similar solution like DSLL 2.0 in Nvidia RTX gpus that will help the 4TF on XBOX SS to push further, we have to wait and see what AMD about to reveal with RDNA 2 on their next event. teraflops isn't an issue this time around more like features and tech.

 

[ZehDon]

Wow your analysis is extremely poorly written.

Feedback riddled controller - what ?
Large scale cooling solution - you dont know what it is do you.
Advanced custom IO stack - you do realise its 12 low cost chips, the reason its fast is 12 lanes and the IO interface in the APU.

The ps5 will cost less to make, what they sell it for is a different discussion.

Did you read my post? I mentioned haptic feedback. Google “DualSense”. That’s not gonna be cheap.
The cooling solution inside the giant PS5 - what do you think is taking up all that space? The 40% less CUs compared to the Series X? The NVMe drive?
You think Sony’s custom stack is just the 12 chips needed to offload the data? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

 

[FunkMiller]

It should be noted (but probably won’t be yet by many) that the Series S marketing does not mention you cannot play games in 4K on it.

This is going to become a very big problem for Microsoft if they are not up front about it.

Just watch.

 

[Saudumm]

It's only missing the "router" ps5 and the "party lights" gamer pc in that picture

Wouldn't this be a better fit?

 

[kyliethicc]

I'm not suggesting it's that likely... don't misunderstand me. I think Sony probably feel their market share is too strong to think it's worth taking that kind of hit. But... it would be aggressive, and it would ensure similar domination to last gen. Coming in under the competition was a huge benefit for them with the Ps4. Maybe they think the same this time too?

But remember 360 and PS3 were both at 85 million each or so, and Sony had just flopped an entire generation from 150m PS2s to barely more than half that PS3s. Xbox 360, on the other hand, had just sold 4x the original Xbox.

Now Sony is looking at 120m PS4s versus 50m Xbox Ones... and they have the stronger games and worldwide brand recognition.

They have less reason to be aggressive on price.

I suspect Jim Ryan's approach is to charge higher price for the console but have lots of exclusive games. 1st and 3rd party. Money hat everything they can.

 

[cragarmi]

Tomorrow Sony will announce the price of the PS5 digital edition ONLY, and the game continues!

 

[zaitsu]

Anyone expecting $399 for Sony’s premium 9-10TF console is going to be sorely disappointed, I feel. Sony themselves have been trying to set a “quality over price” narrative. They’re for an prepping an expensive console launch.

No theyre not.
Cerny said price is important factor to them.

 

[FunkMiller]

But remember 360 and PS3 were both at 85 million each or so, and Sony had just flopped an entire generation from 150m PS2s to barely more than half that PS3s. Xbox 360, on the other hand, had just sold 4x the original Xbox.

Now Sony is looking at 120m PS4s versus 50m Xbox Ones... and they have the stronger games and worldwide brand recognition.

They have less reason to be aggressive on price.

I suspect Jim Ryan's approach is to charge higher price for the console but have lots of exclusive games. 1st and 3rd party. Money hat everything they can.

Yeah, quite possibly. They’re going to be aggressive one way or the other though.

Buckle up, folks.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I don’t disagree - the DE definitely shows Sony knows they base PS5 is going to induce sticker shock.
The question for me comes down to: is the DE priced to undercut the XSX or compete with it? Is the enormous PS5 with its haptic feedback riddled controller, advanced and heavily custom IO stack, and large scale cooling solution coming in at $499 or $599?
I tend to learn towards DE at $499 and disc at $599. We’ll know soon enough. My guesses have been all over the page this cycle - maybe Sony have a miracle up their sleeve and deliver the DE at $299 and Microsoft are fucked.

If the PS5 DE is 399$ then it pretty much guarantees them another 100 million generation.

 

[LiquidRex]

The memes just keep on coming...

 

[zaitsu]

The memes just keep on coming...

To be honest I prefer xbox design over playstation.

And you should know that im playstation fan mostly these days.

 

[Rossco EZ]

hehe

 

[geordiemp]

Did you read my post? I mentioned haptic feedback. Google “DualSense”. That’s not gonna be cheap.
The cooling solution inside the giant PS5 - what do you think is taking up all that space? The 40% less CUs compared to the Series X? The NVMe drive?
You think Sony’s custom stack is just the 12 chips needed to offload the data? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

You are funny, yes i do know what I am talking about.

What is taking up that space, its called air flow optimisation through a wind tunnel design, CFD if you know Fluent and are an engineer, maybe has 2 heat sinks to be seen.

Amount of Cus - you really dont have a clue, yes XSX has more CUs, the shader array is 14 CU fed by an L1 cache, ps5 and PC will be 10 CU shader array and be fed better and much higher bandwidths. Good luck with CU utilisation, how do the XSX games look, are they well optimised ? Oh sorry you want simple numbers, terraflops....

Both XSX and Ps5 have 4 shader arrays.....PC big Navi 80 CU has 8, think about that.

The larger shader array and only 4 of them in XSX is likely due to primary design focus as a server to run 4 instances. Lets see the gaming performance first shall we. But its got more floppies....

The ps5 SSD is 12 chips and 12 channels, then goes to the PCIe 4 controller and the apu. Its a wider SSD bus if you want a simple answer.

 

[kyliethicc]

My demand will go down if they price it high. I can get into Xbox gaming for cheap now.

Of course. But Sony's gamble is can they get millions of people to pay more for a console that can play their exclusive games?

I suspect Sony can still sell out their entire launch stock at higher prices than we want.

It works for Nintendo. People buy an entire system to just play Nintendo games.

 

[zaitsu]

Did you read my post? I mentioned haptic feedback. Google “DualSense”. That’s not gonna be cheap.
The cooling solution inside the giant PS5 - what do you think is taking up all that space? The 40% less CUs compared to the Series X? The NVMe drive?
You think Sony’s custom stack is just the 12 chips needed to offload the data? Do you have any idea what you’re talking about?

You know pricetag on cooling ? Its probably like 5$ xD and thats considered expensive in case of cooling solution.

 

[icerock]

Hope you folks are doing fine, been a while. 300 pages since I was last on here!

The next-gen Xbox prices are near perfect, aggressive on both ends. I expect Series S to be a rousing success in both NA and UK markets. Hopefully, Sony can reveal the price as well. Got to lock down them pre-orders.

I hope I don't catch a ban for this, but here's something funny.

 

[LiquidRex]

Even they are taking the piss out of how the console looks

 

[FunkMiller]

Of course. But Sony's gamble is can they get millions of people to pay more for a console that can play their exclusive games?

I suspect Sony can still sell out their entire launch stock at higher prices than we want.

It works for Nintendo. People buy an entire system to just play Nintendo games.

You might be right, but Sony might also think back to 2013 and how undercutting the XBone was a huge win for them.

I don’t know. Hopefully we’ll find out this week!

 

[kyliethicc]

It should be noted (but probably won’t be yet by many) that the Series S marketing does not mention you cannot play games in 4K on it.

This is going to become a very big problem for Microsoft if they are not up front about it.

Just watch.

Rendered resolution and system output resolution are different. Most casuals don't know that.

Uncharted 4 on PS4 Pro is 1440p. But the system outputs a 2160p video to the TV. Most people have no idea its not 4K. Lots of games use dynamic res.

Xbox will just have the games render around 1080 to 1440 or use dynamic res and then send a 4K video out for 4K TVs ans call it a day.

Almost no one will care or even notice. If they do care, they'll be buying the X anyways cause their probably a pretty serious gaming/tech enthusiast at that point.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

Tweet now deleted...

It makes even more sense now. Something on monday to counter something from Sony the same week, just like the Road to PS5.

 

[kyliethicc]

deleted. repetitive

 

[kyliethicc]

You might be right, but Sony might also think back to 2013 and how undercutting the XBone was a huge win for them.

I don’t know. Hopefully we’ll find out this week!

Agreed, and I hope its $400 and $500 for the PS5 DE / PS5. I want the digital PS5 and so I fucking hope its only $400. I just doubt it.

 

[ghairat]

It makes even more sense now. Something on monday to counter something from Sony the same week, just like the Road to PS5.

Could you elaborate? I thought Road to PS5 came from clear sky?

 

[JonnyMP3]

So

He bought a HDD and still gamed on it . He only played a couple of genres. These gamers also exist.

So that means some will put the drive in... But not everyone. So overall apart from a small percentage of people that bothered to upgrade, overall the Arcade Version was a bust and discontinued.

 

[FunkMiller]

Regardless of anything else, XBox All Access is a clever idea.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

I dont wanna sound mean but non of ur sentences made sense man.

4tf has nothing to do with reoslution . U can have native 4k game on 4 tf . Just depends on games scope .

Also upscaling never uses hardware frametime. Hdmi 2 scales images up from native resolution to 4k . Yes it will look blurry but it does it

The whole premise of XSS on this speculation thread was that it would run next-gen games on a lower rez. I guess I'm mixing up upscaling with reconstruction, but yeah, I wonder if they have something like DLSS to make all games look OK on 4K from their internal 1440p... Which would use part of the frametime to work, a little with hardware acceleration.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

Could you elaborate? I thought Road to PS5 came from clear sky?

The specs for XSX dropped a day before the announcement of the Road to PS5.

 

[kyliethicc]

Could you elaborate? I thought Road to PS5 came from clear sky?

Microsoft showed their console to DF a few days before Cerny's talk.

In their meeting with DF, Xbox stressed multiple times that all the clock speeds on the Series X are constant.
For no reason it seemed. Odd to emphasize that fact.

Then Cerny detailed the PS5's variable clocks just a few days later, so Xbox clearly knew about that before hand.

I assume this Series S rushed announcement is similar. Sony may have something coming soon.

 

[Zheph]

The whole premise of XSS on this speculation thread was that it would run next-gen games on a lower rez. I guess I'm mixing up upscaling with reconstruction, but yeah, I wonder if they have something like DLSS to make all games look OK on 4K from their internal 1440p... Which would use part of the frametime to work, a little with hardware acceleration.

Should be the point of Direct ML (Machine Learning)

 

[kyliethicc]

The whole premise of XSS on this speculation thread was that it would run next-gen games on a lower rez. I guess I'm mixing up upscaling with reconstruction, but yeah, I wonder if they have something like DLSS to make all games look OK on 4K from their internal 1440p... Which would use part of the frametime to work, a little with hardware acceleration.

Richard from Digital Foundry just said the other day he's confident Xbox is developing its own form of DLSS upscaling. Coincidence?

 

[Riky]

Also Digital Foundry didn't create that 4tflop console video for nothing, it's obviously what they've been told the plan is.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Of all time? Salty/fanboy much? It a cheap 299$ console. The PS3 was more hideous when revealed and that console cost 599$.

Being a cheap console is an excuse for looking bad? Don't waste time calling me a fanboy, all next gen consoles look weird to me.

 

[Neo Blaster]

His opinion is stupid. Atari consoles say hi.

Man, your fanboyism is leaking, everyone here is entitled for an opinion.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

Richard from Digital Foundry just said the other day he's confident Xbox is developing its own form of DLSS upscaling. Coincidence?

Should be the point of Direct ML (Machine Learning)

The big elephant on the room, is it hardware accelerated like DLSS? I hope so but I doubt it, honestly. I'd rather they push XSS as 1080p than "1440p to 4K", but we still have to see how it performs.

 

[geordiemp]

Richard from Digital Foundry just said the other day he's confident Xbox is developing its own form of DLSS upscaling. Coincidence?

Every company is working on ML in research. its another discussion to put enough silicon in there to make it useful.

To me it seems upscaling will eb done mainly by using better temporal techniques, like we see from some sony first party or even the UE5 demo Naninte....and if that works, why spend die space ?

 

[B_Boss]

The fish and the cat both. Welcome to the alone club. Here's something to get by:

Also, stay hydrated. You're a fish after all.

I’m surprised no one put a blue “PS” symbol on her shirt .

Also, there is a PS5 commercial almost every break on YouTube. It’s insane.

I must also say, I find it interesting to think of the Series X as the “Pro” version of the Series S. MS has actually released a regular and pro version of their console simultaneously . That’s pretty dope.

 

[CrysisFreak]

Well now we can guess that PS5 will not be more expensive than 499.
Which is great already.
Only question is how much cheaper will the digital edition be?
I think it would be smart to price it at 399 but the feasibility of that can be questioned.

 

[kyliethicc]

The big elephant on the room, is it hardware accelerated like DLSS? I hope so but I doubt it, honestly. I'd rather they push XSS as 1080p than "1440p to 4K", but we still have to see how it performs.

Every company is working on ML in research. its another discussion to put enough silicon in there to make it useful.

To me it seems upscaling will eb done mainly by using better temporal techniques, like we see from some sony first party or even the UE5 demo Naninte....and if that works, why spend die space ?

Well the GPU on Series X has ML support. So they can probably use the GPU to upscale. Could have its own version of tensor cores. But thats pricey.

Bigger question is will the RDNA 2 GPUs have a DLSS like upscaling method? Is Xbox just using a custom version of that tech from AMD? And did AMD give the S upscaling hw in the SOC?

 

[Codexer]

 

[geordiemp]

Well the GPU on Series X has ML support. So they can probably use the GPU to upscale. Could have its own version of "tensor cores."

Bigger question is will the RDNA 2 GPUs have a DLSS like upscaling method? Is Xbox just using a custom version of that tech from AMD? And did AMD give the S upscaling hw in the SOC?

And the even bigger question is who cares besides Nvidia fans ?

Temporal techniques at 60 FP|s are just as good, go watch land of Nanite UE5 and tell me what improvemenst ML would bring to the upscaling ? If the answer is none, then who cares ?

There are 14 DLSS games so far, why do you think that is ? Who is going to bother with the training and unique drivers per game ?

I am more interested in GPU designs that make the temporal better or more accurately less costly in cycles, which will apply to 99 % of games.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Digital will now need to be 299, max 349.

Why would they price a machine 2.5 times more powerful at the same value?

 

[FunkMiller]

Agreed, and I hope its $400 and $500 for the PS5 DE / PS5. I want the digital PS5 and so I fucking hope its only $400. I just doubt it.

I honestly think $399 and $499 are nailed on at this point. I'd be very surprised if it was different either way for both consoles.

This whole 'one is waiting for the other to blink first' thing is a fun meme, but I doubt it represents much of a reality. Far more likely is that both companies have known what their pricing has been for some time now, and the delay in announcements has come down more to concerns over the impact of covid on distribution and production.

 

[kyliethicc]

And the even bigger question is who cares besides Nvidia fans ?

Temporal techniques at 60 FP|s are just as good, go watch land of Nanite UE5 and tell me what improvemenst ML would bring to the upscaling ? If the answer is none, then who cares ?

I am more interested in GPU designs that make the temporal better or more accurately less costly in cycles, which will apply to 99 % of games.

Well I'm not very informed on this stuff, but what I've seen online of DLSS 2.0 with games like Control, seems very cool tech to allow for higher res and frame rate than otherwise is possible.

But the PS4 Pro does a lot of that stuff with checkerboarding and temporal injection etc, and it also looks great to me too.

I don't care how it gets done. I'm just glad PS5 games like Ratchet, SpiderMan, Demon's Souls will have 60 FPS options.

4K native resolution seems like a waste of resources for gaming. Better to use alternative techniques and get more out of the hardware.

 

[Insane Metal]

I can't believe how ugly that thing is, OMG.

MS got it right with the XB One S and the X but then they come up with THAT? WTF

 

[ethomaz]

MS finally did a good design for the new generation.

They could not have the big black circle
But the design is indeed beautiful.

A huge contrast from ugly Series X.

 

[Empire Strikes Back]

Well the GPU on Series X has ML support. So they can probably use the GPU to upscale. Could have its own version of tensor cores. But thats pricey.

Bigger question is will the RDNA 2 GPUs have a DLSS like upscaling method? Is Xbox just using a custom version of that tech from AMD? And did AMD give the S upscaling hw in the SOC?

I thought Alex Battaglia had already did that math, the ML on XSX's GPU can't come close to DLSS. It uses way too much frametime, I guess.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Also funny how Microsoft have revealed the specs of XSS but not the TF....

 

[kyliethicc]

I honestly think $399 and $499 are nailed on at this point. I'd be very surprised if it was different either way for both consoles.

This whole 'one is waiting for the other to blink first' thing is a fun meme, but I doubt it represents much of a reality. Far more likely is that both companies have known what their pricing has been for some time now, and the delay in announcements has come down more to concerns over the impact of covid on distribution and production.

I think the Series S was designed to be $200 less than the X and PS5. Maybe even more.
The digital PS5 changed the game. I think Xbox hope Sony is going $450 for PS5 DE and so XSS is $150 less.

If PS5 DE is $400, I think Microsoft will consider dropping the Xbox Series S to $250.
The PS5 DE is much more powerful, faster, and has more storage.

Maybe Xbox Series S will have a $250 SKU without a controller?
Budget option for current Xbox gamers who don't care about buying another controller that they already have.

 

[ArcaneNLSC]

The design of the series S has melt my eyes, super ugly

I'm actually disappointed I didn't use this scene instead of the friends gif