• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

Status
Not open for further replies.

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Yes.. upgrading old games is a nice feature
yes... some people wait to play old games in ps5 to get benefit of boost mode and new bills and whissles
yes.. BC initiative is a great feature

but all these are bonus features for consoles
first party software is the most single important thing for a console and everything else is a bonus
a console ives and dies by its library of games and first party output is the single most important factor that drive sales
this has been proven through decades of console business
Microsoft can not change that
every other feature is nice but it is a bonus

I don't really disagree here at all.. but he didn't say anything about 1st party lineups.

Just a bunch of shit about how consoles are now upgrading your old games.

I do agree the " Nobody cares about launch games for an RTX 3080, and consoles are heading this way" sentence is dumb.. people will always care about launch lineups. But consoles now offer MORE than a launch lineup which is pretty cool. IT does help answer the question "Why would I upgrade if there are no good launch games?" (answer: because it also makes your old games better)
 
Last edited:

MistBreeze

Member
Somebody please tell this guy the quantity of sales the console are lot more
than any gen of GPU for obvious reasons, also in PC the sales of the GPU increment
if some big title is released in a close date to a new gen of GPUs.

Just looks the sales after the Xbox one X or even after gamepass then tell me the
exclusives doesn't matter yeah sure that is why Nintendo is basically selling around
400k per week since a couple months ago.
exactly,,,,,
Man these people does not understand consoles
 

MistBreeze

Member
I don't really disagree here at all.. but he didn't say anything about 1st party lineups.

Just a bunch of shit about how consoles are now upgrading your old games.

I do agree the " Nobody cares about launch games for an RTX 3080, and consoles are heading this way" sentence is dumb.. people will always care about launch lineups. But consoles now offer MORE than a launch lineup which is pretty cool. IT does help answer the question "Why would I upgrade if there are no good launch games?" (answer: because it also makes your old games better)
the answer to your last question ,

"Why would I upgrade if there are no good launch games?"

is

I will not upgrade to this console
I will upgrade to the other console that has good launch games and better exclusives and in the same time makes my old games better as a bonus

otherwise If I want power I will go full PC at this point
 
there is not much to really say is there, it's a golden fuck up. Just get an Xbox in 3-4 years time when they finally have some games, for now, use common sense and get a ps5.

Why is this shit so hard?
Yep.

You're buying an Xbox Series X/S to play backwards compatible (existing) games with enhancements.
This Xbox launch is diabolical in terms of new experiences designed for this new console. Even the Xbox 360 had exclusives on launch day.

On PS5 there are games that have been developed with the new hardware in mind so you're getting experiences not possible in current gen games.
I don't know how people are trying to downplay this.
One console launch is head and shoulders above the other.
 
Last edited:

PaintTinJr

Member
This is a speculation thread after all (and thanks for good discussion with Giordiemp in DM regarding this).

Speculation: I think Sony has a stacked chip in the PS5 where they have stacked memory on top of the APU die (or below).

Rationale: Sony has a history of stacking memory on top or below of the logic. They started with it in the PS Vita who's main architect was Mark Cerny. They have continued with it in designs such as sensors/cameras. Memory takes up a lot of die space in mm2 and stacking it allows it to be very close to the transistors that need it while making the logic die cheaper to fab.

It all started with a rumor years back from leakers that Sony had a collaboration with Micron to create memory to stack for the PS5.

Then we had 'The Road to PS5' where Mark Cerny stated that the I/O circuit allowed for direct file load into the GPU cache (most likely L2). This only makes real sense if the cache is large enough to both host ongoing work and have enough space to load a new complete file into it (such as a texture that was Mark's example). A 4K texture requires around 50MB and an 8K texture roughly double that (as was exemplified in the UE5 demo).

Then we had the cooling solution with cooling from two directions - top and bottom. And in addition liquid metal cooling from the top. As we now know that the GPU is not OCed but rather runs at AMDs intended frequencies one must ask why all this exotic cooling is required? Ultra-silence is all nice but at that cost?

Then we have the die size of the APU. It is very hard to put more than 16 MB of L2 cache on it before running out of real-estate in mm2 (with reasonable assumptions).

Then we have the need for a large cache to allow for RT with significant memory requirements to run intersects properly (BVH modelling etc).

Finally we have the teardown video of the PS5. The most edited section of the teardown video is of the APU. Sony has eased all marks on the APU digitally. Furthermore, the APU + socket is thick. Like really thick. One explanation could of course be the bottom cooling plate that connects with the other side of the board but that thickness does not make sense in my opinion. Compare the socket etc with the XSX and you will understand what I am talking about.

Conclusion: It seems likely that Sony has a stacked design. The most logical conclusion from that is that they have stacked shared cache memory to save real-estate on the main die and implemented a top and bottom cooling solution to make it happen. This would explain all the items above and be in line with Sony's chosen design paths in the past for several other chips.

I might be 100% wrong of course but it is a speculation thread after all :messenger_smiling_with_eyes: If Sony tells us that the GPU has more than 16MB of shared cache we know that the chip is stacked. There is no other way they can fit that memory into the design otherwise.

Great piece of speculation. Very interesting, and it reminded me that I had been thinking about something 1000 pages ago and forgot to ask, so don't know if this topic has been covered yet, but here goes:

The rumoured AMD RX 6000 series GPUs have one with 40 CUs and one with 80 CUS, and going by details in drivers on mac IIRC the clocks will be comparable to the PS5.

Now, assuming the 40 CU card is similar to the PS5 GPU, but without cache scrubbers, no Tempest Engine and no disabled CUs. IIRC it was said that for yields the arrangement in CUs on RDNA meant that for every defective CU, you need to disable a pair - hence why the PS5 has 36CUs, but the Tempest Engine - which oddly must also be running at a variable clock - was explained to be a reworked CU for accelerating Fourier Transforms, if I'm remembering the Road to PS5 talk correctly.

So if it was assumed 4 CUs would be defective to give 36 working CUs , then which of the 40 CUs is being reworked for the Tempest engine?

Are we assuming that from a yield fab perspective the PS5 is actually 36 + one half of a CU pair- so the Cus have one spare pair that can be defective, and the Tempest engine is duplicated in one CU pair, that only needs one half to be working?

Or is it more likely that a regular 40 CU setup - with upto 2 failed CU pairings for yields is - giving the 36CUs, and then stacked cache scrubbers, tempest engine and 16MB of L2 cache as you speculated are going on top?
 

Shmunter

Member
Say hello to Gran Turmismo 7 on the PS2 PS5:

lDCryrf.jpg
If you squint hard enough you can see Craig driving
 
PS5 version seems to be later date than PS4

I'd gotten an email letting me know of the delay on my pre order.
Same with Gamestop and Target:


 
Last edited:

WildBoy

Member
So now GamePass is free? Only $120/year and you own nothing.

But hey, many crazy customers think so, so it's working.

Free update for owners and Gamepass subbers. You do know you can buy gamepass games whenever you want right? And usually at a heavily discounted price for gamepass members. Especially if they are about to leave gamepass.
 
This is a speculation thread after all (and thanks for good discussion with Giordiemp in DM regarding this).

Speculation: I think Sony has a stacked chip in the PS5 where they have stacked memory on top of the APU die (or below).

Rationale: Sony has a history of stacking memory on top or below of the logic. They started with it in the PS Vita who's main architect was Mark Cerny. They have continued with it in designs such as sensors/cameras. Memory takes up a lot of die space in mm2 and stacking it allows it to be very close to the transistors that need it while making the logic die cheaper to fab.

It all started with a rumor years back from leakers that Sony had a collaboration with Micron to create memory to stack for the PS5.

Then we had 'The Road to PS5' where Mark Cerny stated that the I/O circuit allowed for direct file load into the GPU cache (most likely L2). This only makes real sense if the cache is large enough to both host ongoing work and have enough space to load a new complete file into it (such as a texture that was Mark's example). A 4K texture requires around 50MB and an 8K texture roughly double that (as was exemplified in the UE5 demo).

Then we had the cooling solution with cooling from two directions - top and bottom. And in addition liquid metal cooling from the top. As we now know that the GPU is not OCed but rather runs at AMDs intended frequencies one must ask why all this exotic cooling is required? Ultra-silence is all nice but at that cost?

Then we have the die size of the APU. It is very hard to put more than 16 MB of L2 cache on it before running out of real-estate in mm2 (with reasonable assumptions).

Then we have the need for a large cache to allow for RT with significant memory requirements to run intersects properly (BVH modelling etc).

Finally we have the teardown video of the PS5. The most edited section of the teardown video is of the APU. Sony has eased all marks on the APU digitally. Furthermore, the APU + socket is thick. Like really thick. One explanation could of course be the bottom cooling plate that connects with the other side of the board but that thickness does not make sense in my opinion. Compare the socket etc with the XSX and you will understand what I am talking about.

Conclusion: It seems likely that Sony has a stacked design. The most logical conclusion from that is that they have stacked shared cache memory to save real-estate on the main die and implemented a top and bottom cooling solution to make it happen. This would explain all the items above and be in line with Sony's chosen design paths in the past for several other chips.

I might be 100% wrong of course but it is a speculation thread after all :messenger_smiling_with_eyes: If Sony tells us that the GPU has more than 16MB of shared cache we know that the chip is stacked. There is no other way they can fit that memory into the design otherwise.
Sony could do it on the Vita because the APU wasn't very hot (and was passively cooled). And we don't know yet if the bottom side of the APU is cooled. It wasn't obvious in the teardown.
 

Shmunter

Member
Well, the art style is interesting...a bit icky though. Honestly, this gameplay segment just seemed boring AF to me. I'm sure it gets more lively, but not a great "demo" to show, IMHO. Oh well, different strokes for different folk! Just doesn't look interesting to me right now.
Is there any level variety to the levels? What’s with the fov, 40?
 

WildBoy

Member
I canceled my pre order. Maybe some other people did too.
Full disclosure, I am being serious. I needed to make some financial decisions and prioritize which of the XSX / PS5 pre orders I was keeping.

Also people who had two on preorder may have cancelled one. I know people who have done this recently - favouring one retailer over another.
 

Shmunter

Member
Kojima Productions Reportedly Started Recording Music For “Undisclosed Project”



Original music? Not a fan of the orchestral Japanese soundtracks, reminds me of cheesy RPG’s. Licensed quality music like in Death Stranding. Now that was a perfect selection.
 

sircaw

Banned
I don't see the problem here. Did MS ever say Game Pass games would never cycle out? The fact you can choose to buy games you really like for a discount is a positive of the service not a negative. Could you buy a digital copy of the movie or series you like on Netflix or Disney + or Hulu?

Stop defending Bad practices dude, the guy was about to save the world and get the girl, before he was cut off..

No one should ever side with someone that does this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom