B-universe
Banned
Exactly, because before Evil Terrible Capitalism came along, CD Projket RED's founders would be working in a state cheese factory and the Polish game industry consisted of smuggling in Monopoly.
That's how disastrous Capitalism is.
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CDP estimates show that Cyberpunk already cover it's development and marketing costs
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Exactly, because before Evil Terrible Capitalism came along, CD Projket RED's founders would be working in a state cheese factory and the Polish game industry consisted of smuggling in Monopoly.
That's how disastrous Capitalism is.
Raven117
Member
Probably right. Nothing wrong with that either. If anything, this is probably a correction in the stock price (and some investors cashing in on their gains now that the game is out).
Point being, its not as simple as some people make it out here to be.
Raven117
Member
Yes, yes it is. And its beautiful.
It sure isn't sad. Consumers had a choice to buy the product. Had a chance to wait and see about the product if it met each consumers standard. If consumers chose to buy the product as launched, then that is on them. CDProjecktRed does in fact have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. They do not owe such duty to Consumers. They do, in fact, care about Consumers, but they have to balance real responsibilities to investors as well. You know, the ones who gave them money to own part of their company.
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
Lister
Banned
Nah, nah it isn't.
Raven117
Member
Sure it is. Get effed commie.
FunkMiller
Gold Member
...shame it couldn't cover the QA
Lister
Banned
What the fuck, did I time warp to the 80's or some shit.
Commie. Ok grandpa, are you off your meds again?
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
They will. They always do.
Raven117
Member
You are the one that is against Capitalism. The only proven economic structure to actually increase wealth to a population and expand a middle class in any significant way. By your silly post, you have shown you have an absolute misunderstanding of the concept.
B-universe
Banned
Capitalism is not only a thing of beauty, which it is. Without Capitalism CD Projekt Red would not exist, The Witcher and Cyberpunk 2077 franchises wouldn't exist, the videogame industry wouldn't exist, the internet wouldn't exist, personal computers wouldn't exist.
Etcetera.
But we would still have people forever stuck on the teenagerhood of political discourse, ready to turn a blind eye to the misery and tragedy their tyrannical, oppressive Gulag-prone dear system has inflicted upon the world , ready to defend it on internet gaming forums as though the past 100 years hadn't happened.
These people have learned nothing.
The warm fuzzy feelings in their heart take precedence.
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LOLCats
Banned
im getting tired of old gen whiners. CDPR should just put old gen consoles at like 480p or less and just move on.
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Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Honestly we just need to give it time. The game will have the next gen patch. It'll have patches for the bugs. It'll probably have monstrous Witcher 3 sized DLCs. The legacy of this game is going to be better than the Witcher. People can whine and moan all they want but they know they want but Rockstar has a true competitor right now.
Lister
Banned
Holy shit, it's like AM radio threw up all over your keyboard.
This is especially ironic given the context of the game we are discussing....
Capitalism is great, in moderation. Extreme moderation. Otherwise the human toll is too large, and for what? So that rich people can get richer? Wow, what a fantastic human achievement.
Anyway, let's stop derailing this thread with this fucking nonsense. There's enough of this shit in the politics subforum.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
Yes shut up you goddamn commie
Lister
Banned
Some of you people are truly deranged. Like, completely and irredeemably so.
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Captain Toad
Banned
And you never would have gotten the game. If it bothers you, don't buy it.
Raven117
Member
I wish I could "Like" this more.
I will never understand, truly, never, understand people that claim they are against Capitalism. Does Capitalism need to be regulated to some extent? Of course. But to have these kinds of dumb ass drive by posts about a company doing things as a fiduciary to its investors is just asinine.
Judging from the posters posting history, I have a suspicion where they used to hang out and posts like these were acceptable.
You want to be against Capitalism, go for it. But defend it with more that some smug comment showing your ass. This isn't Reset.
Captain Toad
Banned
He's right though. Be quiet.
Lister
Banned
come and make me, bitch.
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Captain Toad
Banned
Nah. In the spirit of capitalism, I'll just pay someone else to do it.
Raven117
Member
FUCKING HAHAHAHAHAHHA
Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia
100 Years of Communism—and 100 Million Dead
The Bolshevik plague that began in Russia was the greatest catastrophe in human history.
www.wsj.com
Communism Killed 94 Million People in 20th Century
94 million perished in China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Eastern Europe, easily exceeding the 28 million that died under fascism.
reason.com
I don't see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that communism/socialism does not also feed the rich as been shown throughout history.
That said, your post is actually what I think is much closer to what I think you actually mean. Capitalism does need to be regulated. We can agree on that. Now WHERE to draw the line we can debate all day long.
Anyway, welcome back! (Im not being sarcastic, its good to have some different points of view, even if we get a little rough about it sometimes).
I don't see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that communisim/socialism does not also feed the rich as been shown throughout history.
Easy killer. Just giving you a little hard time to get your properly back acclimated to a place where things are a little more free.
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vpance
Member
The game will definitely improve with time and DLC, but I think what they did in the lead up to and the result of the product is unprecedented, and it wouldn't have been tolerated very well in any other industry.
They'll escape this situation unscathed mainly because it's CDPR, and the game is unique, without direct competition.
They'll escape this situation unscathed mainly because it's CDPR, and the game is unique, without direct competition.
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Lister
Banned
FUCKING HAHAHAHAHAHHA
Mass killings under communist regimes - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
100 Years of Communism—and 100 Million Dead
The Bolshevik plague that began in Russia was the greatest catastrophe in human history.Communism Killed 94 Million People in 20th Century
94 million perished in China, the Soviet Union, North Korea, and Eastern Europe, easily exceeding the 28 million that died under fascism.
I don't see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that communism/socialism does not also feed the rich as been shown throughout history.
That said, your post is actually what I think is much closer to what I think you actually mean. Capitalism does need to be regulated. We can agree on that. Now WHERE to draw the line we can debate all day long.
Anyway, welcome back! (Im not being sarcastic, its good to have some different points of view, even if we get a little rough about it sometimes).
Being against putting investors above your employees and customers does not mean I support murderous fascist regimes.
Even if I supported communism, which I don't, it also doesn't mean I'd necessarily support fascists regimes. The two things are mutually exclusive.
I mean I can totally hear someone saying something like: "Exploitation of one class by another class is wrong, and the working class needs to come together to take control of the state in order to eliminate class". Which is essentially what communism boils down to. And I agree with the sentiment, though I don't necessarily agree with how to go about it. But I don't expect many people to follow up that with: "And to make that happen I want to install a fascist murderous thug who enriches himself and his cronies at our expense, while only paying lip service to wha tI said before".
But people are crazy, so maybe they exist.
EDIT: I'm toning down my talk here because you are being nice and shit, which throws me off totally. Not fair.
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B-universe
Banned
Work on your figures of speech.
They 're the equivalent of the unpatched Ps4 version of Cyberpunk 2077, if you remove the Power Supply Unit.
Hey, look another individual who can't fathom the fundamental difference between reality and a dystopian fictional universe.
Ah. in moderation.
As long as you have your flat, a living room, an OLED, a console to play games on, then Capitalism is fine and dandy and cam make the strides it wants. God forbid the rest of the world should want the same comforts. No. That's where the moderation part kicks in. You've got your share, the rest of the planet can go fuck themselves and remain in abject poverty.
Oh, the juvenile disdain for money, oh, that awful thing called wealth I despise while I play videogames on my 500 dollar console on my 2,000 dollar OLED.
That terrible thing called wealth that allows people to live longer, live happier, live healthier, pursue their happiness according to their values, oh, that tenebrous thing called money that has taken humanity out of the dark cave of barbarism into civilization.
Please, Mr. Lister wants it in extreme moderation. Won't people comply? Won't they do what they're told?
Mr. Lister will take a commercial break from his play session on PS5 to lecture the planet on the pure evils of money.
Raven117
Member
Well, the law requires that yes, you do have a fiduciary duty to the OWNERS of your company. That is clear. However, CDProjektRed does in fact care for consumers as they must if they want to run their company properly and make profits, but it all has to be balanced. Which they are trying to do. It is that balance that makes it all work. Employees are free to work anywhere else. They chose CDProjeckRed. They aren't slaves.
Fascist? Hmmm so Communism is now Fascism because.... Wait, is it because if you don't like it, its fascist?
So what do you support?
Edit: I know we are piling on you a little bit. I'm sorry for that. You probably weren't thinking you were walking into a Capitalism v. Communism/Socialism debate why you posted that comment, but here we are.
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Lister
Banned
Uhm, no, that's actually where I try to draw the line. And I do whatever I can with my meager capabilities to make sure everyone has a chance in this world. I vote the way I see would benefit the most people, without stepping on the rights of the minority as much as possible. I try to support companies that do right by their employees and the environment and their customers. I try to support organizations and causes that I feel not only treat the issues that arise from our capitalist economy, but the root causes as well.
But I'm not perfect. Sometimes I choose my dystopian fantasy video game over the personal sacrifices the developers probably had to make (and I'm sure the suits at the top didn't), in order ot make the game happen. At the same time I definitely think I should call them out on it, the industry should call them out on it. Especially if that leads to a better work environment at CD Projeckt Red.
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Raven117
Member
And you think making sure everyone has a chance in this world is to attack the only economic structure that has produced unparalled wealth in its citizens in the history of the world? You are, however, completely free to support companies that do right by their employees, environment and their customers. Your choice, you get to decide.
Call them out? Gawd I hate this childish term. CDProjectRed don't give a flying eff about you calling them out. What they care about is your 60 bucks. If you want to use your voice to convince others not to buy their products, go for it. Point being, if you purchased this game, and then proceed to "call them out" well, you can see how much that really means (other than virtue signaling and making yourself feel good on the internet that somehow you are virtious).
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Lister
Banned
Uhm no, fascism has a pretty specific definition form Wiki: Fascism is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy.
Communism is not the above. It is the desire for the working class to own the means of production, or in other words, share much more equally in the rewards of the labor.
I don't think I need ot explain this to you. You know what the two things mean.
Moving the goal post. Can you read?
quote what I requested, please. I’m tired of repeating myself, and your stupidity is grating
midasmulligan
Member
Good news is they can put on they’re CVs that the delivered two of the greatest games of all time while receiving a portion of the profits and notoriety that goes along with it. I’d say it’ll work out for them if they want to go somewhere else, don’t you?
B-universe
Banned
The people who actually know the work environment at CDPR, the people who actually work at CDPR and stay there approve of the work environment. They voluntarily applied and voluntarily decide to stay. It's the best work environment they have on offer. How do I know this? Because if they had a better offer, all things considered, they would quit and switch companies.
Those who don't like the work environment at CDPR can have a talk with management and try to win management over. Ultimately, if that doesn't work out, they can quit. They're free to quit. They're not being held at point blank range. The company doesn't owe them the implementation of their demands. Smart management will try to attract and retain the best employees. Over time, that tends to lead to better wages and a general improvement of the work conditions.
Developers are willing to take on a job under certain conditions. CDPR is willing to employ them under another set of conditions. The two parties reach an agreement and write up a contract, which they then both sign and swear by.
If not, they part ways.
Should developers give you a Zoom call beforehand and ask what you think about the contract they voluntarily signed?
Indeed, Capitalism is a thing of beauty.
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Raven117
Member
There it is! I was wondering when I would hear the phrase "means of production."
How do you think Communism actually effing operates dude? Look at EVERY FUCKING SINGLE COMMUNSIT REGIME THAT HAS EVER EXISTED.
Communism vs Fascism - Difference and Comparison | Diffen
What's the difference between Communism and Fascism? While communism is a system based around a theory of economic equality and advocates for a classless society, fascism is a nationalistic, top-down system with rigid class roles that is ruled by an all-powerful dictator. Both communism and...
Do stick around Gaf for awhile. I think you may learn a few things. At the very least learn to argue your points better. To tell me that Communism is Fascism shows that you need to look at what you actually believe rather than throw up some buzz words.
Raven117
Member
But you don't understand, "control the means of production" yada yada something something.
Lister
Banned
I don't think you've had the "gotcha!" moment that you think you have.
As I said, I'm not for communism. I was simply explaining it.
Personally, my beliefs are more around what I'd call enlightened capitalism. Or capitalism and socialism bundled together in a messy, imperfect ball.
Yes, money as the leading motivator for human labor. Not much we can do about that unless the human race changes in a very fundamental way.
But under the protection of a transparent government that can be held accountable by the people. With an emphasis on a more equitable share of the profits accross the working class and investors, and protection of the environment and a commitment to prevent abuse of the working class.
And the understanding that SOME things are for the betterment and safety of everyone and in turn benefit everyone, and should not be left to pure market forces. That for these things we don't want or need someone to be making a buck. And that yes, to have them, we all have to chip in. Things like healthcare and education and police and firefighting and military (at least most agree on those three).
Anyway, I think we sidetracked this thread enough? Be happy to talk more on the politics subforum.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
I can't believe this commie is still going reciting his whole manifesto in here.
iamvin22
Industry Verified
Yea no. Gta is a absolute beast
Lister
Banned
Stop being such a fucking snowflake.
"This person I don't agree with is sharing his views!! I might have the vapors!!"
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Raven117
Member
It’s not a gotcha. It’s just a bad attempt at explaining it.
The irony is that what you explaining is actually the system we have. We can quibble over “enlightened” capitalism or whatever that means, but ultimately we do agree that Capitalism as regulated by a government elected by a free election is the best way to go. (And that history has clearly demonstrated). The tension and debate of where to draw the regulatory line is what is important.
Yes, sidetracked enough. Remember, you were the one that brought up Capitalism in this thread and not me. Just saying.
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New Yorks Finest
Banned
CDPR in the league of it's own. GOAT
LEGEND status Open World True to its core RPG..he said Rockst..
Lister
Banned
It’s not a gotcha. It’s just a bad attempt at explaining it.
The irony is that what you explaining is actually the system we have. We can quibble over “enlightened” capitalism or whatever that means, but ultimately we do agree that Capitalism as regulated by a government elected by a free election is the best way to go. (And that history has clearly demonstrated). The tension and debate of where to draw the regulatory line is what is important.
Yes, sidetracked enough. Remember, you were the one that brought up Capitalism in this thread and not me. Just saying.
It was a swipe mostly at the idea that investors come first and fuck employees and the consumer.
Yes I understand that the investors have Cd Project Red by the balls.
But the notion that this is perfectly fine and fuck the employees goign through months of crunch rubs me the wrong way. Especially having been in that exact position. I know it's almost always due to extremely poor management from the top down. And the people that pay the price are the ones from down up, and the people that reap the most rewards did jack shit, except squeeze those balls nice and tight.
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Mabdia
Member
Man... the only thing that stoped me to get CP was de first person perspective. I really hate it. If they make it possible to play in 3rd person on PS4, gonna get it the day after the patch.
LectureMaster
Member
Well I would be more excited and congratulate CDPR if performance on base consoles isn't this bad.
Granted you can't blame all this on the developer, I just hope the next-gen patch comes sooner.
Granted you can't blame all this on the developer, I just hope the next-gen patch comes sooner.
Raven117
Member
Yeah, I know it was just a swipe (and honestly, after a post or two it was clear you aren't a communist... I just take issue with the implication...The swipe is really "Fuck CDProjektRed" not the capitalism, but its all good. We were able to pick up what the other person was really saying.It was a swipe mostly at the idea that investors come first and fuck employees and the consumer.
Yes I understand that the investors have Cd Project Red by the balls.
But the notion that this is perfectly fine and fuck the employees goign through months of crunch rubs me the wrong way. Especially having been in that exact position. I know it's almost always due to extremely poor management from the top down. And the people that pay the price are the ones from down up, and the people that reap the most rewards did jack shit, except squeeze those balls nice and tight.
Well I don't disagree with anything you said about the management of CDProjektRed. Like any major projects, "cruch" in any industry, can be alleviated with solid management. A little crunch is one thing (as is the nature of all big projects), but months and months just means bad management or issues that demand a delay. They were in a tough spot.
Great use of that gif!
