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The Falcon and The Winter Soldier |OT| Cap's Best Friends

Soodanim

Member
Very behind on the thread, but a blind cross post from MetaGAF before I go back and catch up:


I only watched the last episode last night and I haven’t yet been back into the thread for it, but I don’t get why anyone would have a problem with black Captain America. No one else can really ever be Steve, that point is made very early on and repeated through the wrong person taking up the role. No one is worthy of Thor’s hammer, but Sam best represents Steve’s ideals and it’s why he was chosen to carry the mantle. It’s right there in your face.

Conversely to the ones questioning black CA, I think a flaw of the show was more that they dropped the ideal of not caring about skin colour the MCU showed but didn’t tell. Everyone was always above it and it was never a problem for anyone. It feels to me that in a universe with the powers, tech and everything else that’s so commonplace it should be less divided than our one.

TLDR Not only should it not be an issue in this universe, it shouldn’t be an issue in that universe.
Looking forward to seeing what people think of the entire show as a full story now it’s finished.
 

Soodanim

Member
Is Steve Rodgers on SWORD base with Fury and the Skrulls? That one fool said "I thought Captain America was on the Moon?"
I took that as a joke based on the ridiculous theories you hear, like Tupac/Elvis/Whoever is alive and living in Cuba, taken to an MCU level because of how advanced that world is. I can’t imagine Steve, who took the opportunity to live out his life in full, would spend his last days/years on a space station instead of relaxing in peace somewhere on Earth.
 

geary

Member
The fight scene between Karly and Walker was laughable. For Karly, with the serum also come the combat skills, right? Without the serum we would had a normal girl vs a medaled soldier, but in some way taking the serum, now they are on par. Talking about narrative bs.
 

cormack12

Gold Member
That's the issue with the situation in the end. If you give back all of the property to the people that got blipped or you leave it as is, millions of people are displaced. Unilaterally disenfranchising that many folks causes problems and there's got to be a better solution that they can work on. Sam's speech is pretty much that. He's not saying that it needs to stay like it is now nor does he have a perfect answer but we should at least try to help everyone instead of ignoring them.

But there isn't. Not one person has come up with an alternative during the whole show (and by consequence since the 'unsnap). And there are people who will be unhappy with whatever ultimatum is laid down. There's a level of altruism that need to come from the people to work for the greater good. This is not something that can be fixed by being led. It is a process of leading by following which needs to be instigated by the people. Where are the people sying 'actually yeah, these guys are right - I'll return their lives to them', or where are the guys saying 'You have a point, come on we'll set up new land like those in the frontier and start a new life'.

But just like now, we have plenty of 'problem announcers' but when it comes to action with no direct benefit this idealism falls off a ledge very quickly and people only have their own interests at heart. It's why Karli was contextually a 'good villain' - her interests were not self motivated. The medicine was a metaphor for all resources. Karli taking that medicine meant someone else had to do without - ultimately. It's nice to imagine that the medicine was for some wealthy family attached to the powerful GRC but in reality it might just be insulin for an unsnapped kid who is close to death. Who should get that medicine? Make that choice. Let Sam make that choice. He has one shot of insulin and two people who need it - what's that Sam? It's a tough problem, yeah it is and people have to make those decisions especially when those who like to announce problems shirk those repsonsibilities.

I do want to pick up on the unilateral part of the post though because it poses a few important questions, and actually connects a few scenes/events in the show. Let's take the Avengers first - were they right to unsnap? Wasn't that a unilateral decision made a group of people with shared and vested interests? Was any consideration given to what the consequence would be of bringing back a population density and spread from five years ago? Did they consider anything beyond Earth as their basis? What about all the oppressed and endangered lifeforms that were now flourishing? What about the planets and civilisations that were now five years into resource stabilisation programmes and healing? How far back should they put things to right? WWI......etc.

Ultimately, did the Avengers save anyone, did they make things better or did they just reverse the scoreboard? Thanos was dead, the world was quieter, healing after a great loss but it was moving on (as it does after all major catastrophes). People were remarrying, making new families, having new babies, restructuring the world to work again (maybe even in better and fairer ways). Unilateral decisions made by shared interested groups are at odds, whether they are by pragmatic, unempathetic politicians or rooted in ideals like Avengers or Flagsmashers. There are always knock on effects and I think the show demonstrates this and the relationships of how they integrate.

The reason the speech doesn't work for me at all is a number of reasons. Sam is a military man, how many times has he faced orders he disagreed with or knew would cost lives/risk lives even. He actually makes a conscious choice to abandon a gutshot Sharon to carry Karli out in the street. Whether Sharon is still on the run or not is immaterial here, he has wings and a jetpack. He can just fly her ass to Madripoor and make sure she is ok. Even in his fight with Karli, he is beaten. Because he places idealism (redemption) over pragmatism (apprehension/termination) - which again is a metaphor for the whole mess the world is in. I don't know how many times the lesson needs to be learned? Even Lara Croft (2013) had more growth here ("You can't save everyone Lara" -Roth). Without Sharon, Sam was about to be shot - putting aside the need for the show to leave it as an unanswered question for 'ambiguity'.

Regarding the above highlighted part of the quote, this is the current best solution - the issue with borders was escalated because of the bomb attack. Provide a better solution within the constraints and pressures that are there. There's a very real problem. There is nowhere to put all these people. They are refusing to leave. They are in the streets, no money, poor, dying, probably diseased. There is nothing here but stubborness and lack of reasonability causing this issue by people. And there is only a certain amount of time that can pass before those pressures become unmanageable and need intervention. If people were to leave (whichever side for arguments sake), production and infrastructure could be up and running - medicine production, food production etc. just not in 'home, sweet home'.

Flying in at the end carrying Karli (the leader of a well loved, idealistic, terrorist group) as though she was just unpinned from a cross, while giving a speech full of rhetoric and idealism is not going to make things better. Sure it gives the new Captain America a 'scene', but what he says, the way he says it with no alternative is actually more likely to create more "Karli's" because the entire thing is rooted in idealism again. But he made that clear in his talk with Bucky and sympathy for Karli's cause. I think his speech was naive, idealistic and reckless - traits I would also identify with Karli's characteristics. It's tantamount to pulling a firefighter over during 9/11 and saying 'why is this so bad, why are people still dying. why aren't the fires out?'. I think at the moment everyone is caught up in this real world 'hate police, hate government' stuff on social media and they're trying to piggback these opinions onto shows which have even more layers of nuance than GRC = bad, huh-duh-huh. If people want to over simplify the nuance I guess that's up to them, but then they wonder why they don't get shows with challenging themes etc.

The conversation that needs to take place first and give them show room to breathe, is 'what is the workable solution'? Show it. Evidence it beyond 'There has to be something we can do', or 'The choice is vindictive for the sake of being vindictive'.

I don't know where this is headed, maybe the writers do and maybe ultimately this is going to be Sam's arc/journey. This isn't like a rehab group where people share things, unload and feel better. You don't get to neatly cut the loop at the end of the day and unwind. Everything you do at this level is going to make people unhappy in one camp or another, every decision is likely to have winner and losers. He says that doesn't matter with regards to wearing the shield and people accepting him. He needs to have the same attitude to the actual problems the world is facing.
 
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sol_bad

Member
The fight scene between Karly and Walker was laughable. For Karly, with the serum also come the combat skills, right? Without the serum we would had a normal girl vs a medaled soldier, but in some way taking the serum, now they are on par. Talking about narrative bs.

Karli was the muscle for the Power Broker. As far as I understand it, even before she took the serum. Why would she be chosen to take the serum is she didn't already have certain skill sets.
 

bitbydeath

Member
But there isn't. Not one person has come up with an alternative during the whole show (and by consequence since the 'unsnap). And there are people who will be unhappy with whatever ultimatum is laid down. There's a level of altruism that need to come from the people to work for the greater good. This is not something that can be fixed by being led. It is a process of leading by following which needs to be instigated by the people. Where are the people sying 'actually yeah, these guys are right - I'll return their lives to them', or where are the guys saying 'You have a point, come on we'll set up new land like those in the frontier and start a new life'.

But just like now, we have plenty of 'problem announcers' but when it comes to action with no direct benefit this idealism falls off a ledge very quickly and people only have their own interests at heart. It's why Karli was contextually a 'good villain' - her interests were not self motivated. The medicine was a metaphor for all resources. Karli taking that medicine meant someone else had to do without - ultimately. It's nice to imagine that the medicine was for some wealthy family attached to the powerful GRC but in reality it might just be insulin for an unsnapped kid who is close to death. Who should get that medicine? Make that choice. Let Sam make that choice. He has one shot of insulin and two people who need it - what's that Sam? It's a tough problem, yeah it is and people have to make those decisions especially when those who like to announce problems shirk those repsonsibilities.

I do want to pick up on the unilateral part of the post though because it poses a few important questions, and actually connects a few scenes/events in the show. Let's take the Avengers first - were they right to unsnap? Wasn't that a unilateral decision made a group of people with shared and vested interests? Was any consideration given to what the consequence would be of bringing back a population density and spread from five years ago? Did they consider anything beyond Earth as their basis? What about all the oppressed and endangered lifeforms that were now flourishing? What about the planets and civilisations that were now five years into resource stabilisation programmes and healing? How far back should they put things to right? WWI......etc.

Ultimately, did the Avengers save anyone, did they make things better or did they just reverse the scoreboard? Thanos was dead, the world was quieter, healing after a great loss but it was moving on (as it does after all major catastrophes). People were remarrying, making new families, having new babies, restructuring the world to work again (maybe even in better and fairer ways). Unilateral decisions made by shared interested groups are at odds, whether they are by pragmatic, unempathetic politicians or rooted in ideals like Avengers or Flagsmashers. There are always knock on effects and I think the show demonstrates this and the relationships of how they integrate.

The reason the speech doesn't work for me at all is a number of reasons. Sam is a military man, how many times has he faced orders he disagreed with or knew would cost lives/risk lives even. He actually makes a conscious choice to abandon a gutshot Sharon to carry Karli out in the street. Whether Sharon is still on the run or not is immaterial here, he has wings and a jetpack. He can just fly her ass to Madripoor and make sure she is ok. Even in his fight with Karli, he is beaten. Because he places idealism (redemption) over pragmatism (apprehension/termination) - which again is a metaphor for the whole mess the world is in. I don't know how many times the lesson needs to be learned? Even Lara Croft (2013) had more growth here ("You can't save everyone Lara" -Roth). Without Sharon, Sam was about to be shot - putting aside the need for the show to leave it as an unanswered question for 'ambiguity'.

Regarding the above highlighted part of the quote, this is the current best solution - the issue with borders was escalated because of the bomb attack. Provide a better solution within the constraints and pressures that are there. There's a very real problem. There is nowhere to put all these people. They are refusing to leave. They are in the streets, no money, poor, dying, probably diseased. There is nothing here but stubborness and lack of reasonability causing this issue by people. And there is only a certain amount of time that can pass before those pressures become unmanageable and need intervention. If people were to leave (whichever side for arguments sake), production and infrastructure could be up and running - medicine production, food production etc. just not in 'home, sweet home'.

Flying in at the end carrying Karli (the leader of a well loved, idealistic, terrorist group) as though she was just unpinned from a cross, while giving a speech full of rhetoric and idealism is not going to make things better. Sure it gives the new Captain America a 'scene', but what he says, the way he says it with no alternative is actually more likely to create more "Karli's" because the entire thing is rooted in idealism again. But he made that clear in his talk with Bucky and sympathy for Karli's cause. I think his speech was naive, idealistic and reckless - traits I would also identify with Karli's characteristics. It's tantamount to pulling a firefighter over during 9/11 and saying 'why is this so bad, why are people still dying. why aren't the fires out?'. I think at the moment everyone is caught up in this real world 'hate police, hate government' stuff on social media and they're trying to piggback these opinions onto shows which have even more layers of nuance than GRC = bad, huh-duh-huh. If people want to over simplify the nuance I guess that's up to them, but then they wonder why they don't get shows with challenging themes etc.

The conversation that needs to take place first and give them show room to breathe, is 'what is the workable solution'? Show it. Evidence it beyond 'There has to be something we can do', or 'The choice is vindictive for the sake of being vindictive'.

I don't know where this is headed, maybe the writers do and maybe ultimately this is going to be Sam's arc/journey. This isn't like a rehab group where people share things, unload and feel better. You don't get to neatly cut the loop at the end of the day and unwind. Everything you do at this level is going to make people unhappy in one camp or another, every decision is likely to have winner and losers. He says that doesn't matter with regards to wearing the shield and people accepting him. He needs to have the same attitude to the actual problems the world is facing.
100% agree with this.
This is why Sam is unfit to be Captain America.
He just says what people want to hear, damn the consequences. He even admitted in his stupid speech that he knew nothing of how things worked and expected hunger to be solved with a phone call.
 
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McCheese

Member
100% agree with this.
This is why Sam is unfit to be Captain America.
He just says what people want to hear, damn the consequences. He even admitted in his stupid speech that he knew nothing of how things worked and expected hunger to be solved with a phone call.

Did he even give an answer to the "What do we tell the people who came back and now there are other people living in their homes?" question, whilst Sam is definitely a very naive character I think the script at least did a decent job of putting forward some solid counter-arguments in his debate with the senator. Sam/Steve are always trying to reach some unachievable ideal as that's what they stand for, and I'm fine with that. Marvel have characters like Zemo and Agent Carter now who counter-balance it with more, shall we say, practical solutions like putting a bullet in someones head.

I really enjoyed the final episode.
 

bitbydeath

Member
Did he even give an answer to the "What do we tell the people who came back and now there are other people living in their homes?" question, whilst Sam is definitely a very naive character I think the script at least did a decent job of putting forward some solid counter-arguments in his debate with the senator. Sam/Steve are always trying to reach some unachievable ideal as that's what they stand for, and I'm fine with that. Marvel have characters like Zemo and Agent Carter now who counter-balance it with more, shall we say, practical solutions like putting a bullet in someones head.

I really enjoyed the final episode.
No, he diverted by saying everyone is struggling and compared it all with racial issues.
 

Soodanim

Member
There are lots of deep, thoughtful posts about -isms, but I think Sam's argument was much more to the point: if that many people are willing to back the Flag Smashers, clearly it's not the right decision.

You don't have to have Answer B to be eligible to say Answer A is bad.

"Do better" means try something else, because this solution had too much of a drawback.
"Do better" means look after the people that need looking after while that happens, which is why he mentioned feeding people.
The approach across the board was shown to be flawed throughout the story, and things needed to be addressed. The hoarding of food was one that comes to mind.

Overthinking it takes you away from what the MCU is - ideals. That feeds back into my above point, which is that real world issues don't quite align with the MCU so this series taking a more realistic approach causes issues. It gave them a story, but it came with downsides. In a world with that much magic, tech, AI, and muscle there could have been solutions other than the ones they had.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
One of Steve's better qualities was restraint with his abilities. Falcon showed restraint. Maybe too much?

Have to agree with grievances about Sam's costume. Both Cap and USAgent need better headgear, form and colouring.(Falcon should cloak. C'mon Wakanda, that's your thing.)
Some scenes did seem a bit too TV(unironically) rather than movie.

With a couple days to sink in I liked the Wanda finale better. Lots of potential from both.

Most powerful scene over both series was Isaiah. Can barely think of it without feeling. Brings the score back up a point.

Overall 8 to the Witch's 9.
 
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DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Sam's thing wasn't about just the people who weren't snapped... It was about thinking about everyone who will end up suffering. They can't just do what's easy... They have to try to do what's right for ALL the world's citizens who are affected by the blip. Try to create the least damage and havoc. Try to not create Karli 2.0 because the way they were about to move forward WOULD HAVE created that.

He said the flagsmashers had world wide support from the people and the GRC didn't ask "Why?" they had that... Why people supported them. Why they were willing to die for that cause.

They just labelled them terrorists and that's it.

They Karli and the super soldiers WERE terrorists but their ideology wasn't selfish. They were trying to help those being oppressed because they weren't snapped out of existence.

Sam is definitely worthy of the mantle because he spent the whole series listening and taking in all sides of everything... Thoughtfully. He didn't rush in guns blazing like Walker into every situation. He put thought into it. Look back at the second episode and the contrast between him and Bucky when they first went after Karli and the gang.
 
Sam's thing wasn't about just the people who weren't snapped... It was about thinking about everyone who will end up suffering. They can't just do what's easy... They have to try to do what's right for ALL the world's citizens who are affected by the blip. Try to create the least damage and havoc. Try to not create Karli 2.0 because the way they were about to move forward WOULD HAVE created that.

He said the flagsmashers had world wide support from the people and the GRC didn't ask "Why?" they had that... Why people supported them. Why they were willing to die for that cause.

They just labelled them terrorists and that's it.

They Karli and the super soldiers WERE terrorists but their ideology wasn't selfish. They were trying to help those being oppressed because they weren't snapped out of existence.

Sam is definitely worthy of the mantle because he spent the whole series listening and taking in all sides of everything... Thoughtfully. He didn't rush in guns blazing like Walker into every situation. He put thought into it. Look back at the second episode and the contrast between him and Bucky when they first went after Karli and the gang.
The problem is Karli WERE willing to kill people for it. GRC isn't evil, they still work under constrain. Karli terrorist action force them to made a vote. The senator are right, WHAT could be done to the people who got snap back to existent? Not everyone got someone waiting for them like Antman does. They go back to their home and it belong to someone else now; no matter what government choose to do, someone is going to be upset. Falcon also felt the same unfairness as he was back snap back into the world and he couldn't even get a loan to fix up the boat since .... he didn't exist for 5 years and he is a known public figure, a avenger.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
Sam's thing wasn't about just the people who weren't snapped... It was about thinking about everyone who will end up suffering. They can't just do what's easy... They have to try to do what's right for ALL the world's citizens who are affected by the blip. Try to create the least damage and havoc. Try to not create Karli 2.0 because the way they were about to move forward WOULD HAVE created that.

He said the flagsmashers had world wide support from the people and the GRC didn't ask "Why?" they had that... Why people supported them. Why they were willing to die for that cause.

They just labelled them terrorists and that's it.

They Karli and the super soldiers WERE terrorists but their ideology wasn't selfish. They were trying to help those being oppressed because they weren't snapped out of existence.

Sam is definitely worthy of the mantle because he spent the whole series listening and taking in all sides of everything... Thoughtfully. He didn't rush in guns blazing like Walker into every situation. He put thought into it. Look back at the second episode and the contrast between him and Bucky when they first went after Karli and the gang.

Resetting borders isn't 'easy', it is simply the best option available to avert impending the numerous conflicts that would arise from displaced populations and changed borders during a time of crisis. The world is not a monolithic entity with the same interests and goals so the very idea of "one world, one people" is an outright lie. We are one species but many peoples. It would be a fortunate miracle for most people if the world managed to reset itself and they could somehow get every party to agree.

Imagine the following:
- Taiwan's demographic became pro-China in the intervening years due to the nature of the blip removing more of the nationalists and the returnees threatened that balance.
- A significantly large number Greeks have disappeared than Turks, so Turkey has expanded its holdings to encompass various Greek islands and houses a large number of refugees from Africa that Turkey doesn't want.
- Jewish Israeli's have all but disappeared during the blip and have returned en masse to a new Arab state.
- China has claimed all of the South China Sea as its territory.
- Most of Ukraine became its own Russian dominated nation.
- Venezuela has claimed oil rich holdings in Guyana and Colombia that they already claim is theirs.
- Kashmir became a predominantly Hindu region.

People weren't happy with the way the world was before and no solution could ever hope to appease every party.

The food being "hoarded" may be simply on hold because they are being redirected to more needy regions in the sub-sahara, or may be awaiting approval for human consumption for any number of issues from date of expiry, standards, or manufacturing issues just as we see in real life but because the results may appear bad to some people in a short timeframe, the entire plan is apparently bad and we simply have to do better.

Sam's non-answer of "Do Better" is lazy and naive. It assumes that the people in charge aren't doing what they can to reasonably address issues more complicated than he chooses to understand. If he expects better, then he had better be providing some better options and gaining political support for them. Call on Captain Miracle Grow or find some mystical jewel of plenty, but until then, human beings are subject to certain restraints.
 
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JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
100% agree with this.
This is why Sam is unfit to be Captain America.
He just says what people want to hear, damn the consequences. He even admitted in his stupid speech that he knew nothing of how things worked and expected hunger to be solved with a phone call.
Guys, one of your problems is that you're taking this show's ending as an 'end all be all'. You already know that if anything was unanswered or missing, they will address it in the next movie or show that relates to the characters. These are literally motion picture comic books and you're treating a middle-run issue like it's the last ever print.

Also, you guys' second problem is that you're expecting way too much from Sam. He's a Soldier, same as Captain America. He follows his ideals and makes suggestions based off of him, but neither Sam nor Cap know how to run an entire country or world for that matter. bitbydeath bitbydeath You should know this above everyone else because the character in your avatar is in the same boat. He is a leader of the seven, a fighter, and peacekeeper, but he is not the leader of the corporation who has power over him and calls the shots, and nor is he trying to be that leader. He would rather be praised as an icon than sit through what he considers boring meetings about how to run the world.

Don't think too hard that you're missing the point guys.
 

99Luffy

Banned
100% agree with this.
This is why Sam is unfit to be Captain America.
He just says what people want to hear, damn the consequences. He even admitted in his stupid speech that he knew nothing of how things worked and expected hunger to be solved with a phone call.
Did you feel that Ironman was 100% wrong and Captain america was 100% right in Civil War?
Sam pretty much reacted in the most Captain America way possible.
 

Ulysses 31

Member
Oof, I wonder about all the stuff the EFAP crew will see with this show. :lollipop_grinning:


Will start watching in a few hours when they've actually started tearing into the show.
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
The problem is Karli WERE willing to kill people for it. GRC isn't evil, they still work under constrain. Karli terrorist action force them to made a vote. The senator are right, WHAT could be done to the people who got snap back to existent? Not everyone got someone waiting for them like Antman does. They go back to their home and it belong to someone else now; no matter what government choose to do, someone is going to be upset. Falcon also felt the same unfairness as he was back snap back into the world and he couldn't even get a loan to fix up the boat since .... he didn't exist for 5 years and he is a known public figure, a avenger.

It isn't Sam's duty to offer the solution. He was telling them they had to think more broadly than the narrow way they were. I don't understand what's do difficult about this. He's saying to consider more than they were. There's more than just the blipped people. That they're more powerful than they think. They have just as much power as an insane god or a misguided teenager.
 

bitbydeath

Member
Guys, one of your problems is that you're taking this show's ending as an 'end all be all'. You already know that if anything was unanswered or missing, they will address it in the next movie or show that relates to the characters. These are literally motion picture comic books and you're treating a middle-run issue like it's the last ever print.

Also, you guys' second problem is that you're expecting way too much from Sam. He's a Soldier, same as Captain America. He follows his ideals and makes suggestions based off of him, but neither Sam nor Cap know how to run an entire country or world for that matter. bitbydeath bitbydeath You should know this above everyone else because the character in your avatar is in the same boat. He is a leader of the seven, a fighter, and peacekeeper, but he is not the leader of the corporation who has power over him and calls the shots, and nor is he trying to be that leader. He would rather be praised as an icon than sit through what he considers boring meetings about how to run the world.

Don't think too hard that you're missing the point guys.

Did you feel that Ironman was 100% wrong and Captain america was 100% right in Civil War?
Sam pretty much reacted in the most Captain America way possible.
Neither Cap nor Iron Man would have sided with Thanos saying great idea, just the execution needs work.

And they wouldn’t have paraded his dead body around as some sort of hero either.
 
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99Luffy

Banned
Neither Cap nor Iron Man would have sided with Thanos saying great idea, just the execution needs work.

And they wouldn’t have paraded his dead body around as some sort of hero either.
Thanos no.
I bet if Zemo died though Bucky would be cradling him in his arms.
And dont forget Killmonger's death. MCU loves the noble terrorist theme.

poQkP78.png
 
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Liamario

Banned
Disappointed with the series to be honest. Anthony Mackie has definitely grown on me and have no issue with him being Captain America. His new suit is OTT though.
I respected the whole Isaiah Bradley story, but the lady episode was way too preachy. Couldn't care less about Sharon Carter.
Overall, they were moments of quality, but they were undone by an uneven story and uninteresting antagonists and plot.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
Neither Cap nor Iron Man would have sided with Thanos saying great idea, just the execution needs work.

And they wouldn’t have paraded his dead body around as some sort of hero either.
This didn't have anything to do with my post. I feel like you quoted me to get my attention lol.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
You suggested Sam follows the same ideals as Cap, he doesn’t. Cap would never do that.
That's all you got from my post? I'm disappointed man. You can't equate 1 to 1 here. The Flag Smashers weren't trying to commit mass genocide to save a solar system, like Thanos. The fact that you're even comparing them is either a troll or you're just not getting it. Of course Cap wouldn't have tried to talk down Thanos. Think about when in the timeline he met the guy. By that point Thanos had already destroyed an entire ship of people on it, sent two destroyers to attack new york for one stone, and sent an army to kill everyone in Wakanda protecting another stone. The war was already happening, so by that point both Sam and Cap's responses were to fight. Entirely different agendas here. Thanos did not care about the human race. He cared about solving a math equation and being remembered for it.

I know you like to argue people to death on this forum because that's your thing, but it's getting a bit weary seeing countless people in this thread pointing out these truths to you using the evidence marvel themselves have presented, and you still reaching like Mr. Fantastic to find a straw for a barely usable counterpoint. We shouldn't have to recite the entire timeline of the MCU to you like a kids book for you to get it man.
 
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bitbydeath

Member
That's all you got from my post? I'm disappointed man. You can't equate 1 to 1 here. The Flag Smashers weren't trying to commit mass genocide to save a solar system, like Thanos. The fact that you're even comparing them is either a troll or you're just not getting it. Of course Cap wouldn't have tried to talk down Thanos. Think about when in the timeline he met the guy. By that point Thanos had already destroyed an entire ship of people on it, sent two destroyers to attack new york for one stone, and sent an army to kill everyone in Wakanda protecting another stone. The war was already happening, so by that point both Sam and Cap's responses were to fight. Entirely different agendas here. Thanos did not care about the human race. He cared about solving a math equation and being remembered for it.

I know you like to argue people to death on this forum because that's your thing, but it's getting a bit weary seeing countless people in this thread pointing out these truths to you using the evidence marvel themselves have presented, and you still reaching like Mr. Fantastic to find a straw for a barely usable counterpoint. We shouldn't have to recite the entire timeline of the MCU to you like a kids book for you to get it man.
The flagsmashers were intending on killing innocents until they got their way. They weren’t doing it in one go like Thanos because they didn’t have that ability.

They were evil.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
Rollingstone has a review out and pretty much has the same issue with the monologue and the Flag Smasher ideology that many others are saying: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-recaps/falcon-and-winter-soldier-finale-recap-1160293/

"The writers never figured out exactly what Karli stood for, why she was behaving more recklessly of late, why Sam was so drawn to her struggle, or any of the other things necessary for the chief antagonist. The goal was clearly to make her a complicated, reasonable villain like Killmonger, but nobody put in the work to make it make emotional sense. She’s just complicated because we’re told that she is. Lather, rinse, repeat for so many other finale developments."

"Sharon kills Karli to protect her true agenda, and that inspires Sam to give a long and rambling speech to the Senator (such a non-character he was never even given a name) and other members of the GRC about the evils of what they’re doing. Like Karli’s motivations, very little of what Sam is arguing is clearly articulated, outside of the parts about what it’s like to be a black man wearing the Stars and Stripes. We don’t know enough about what the GRC is doing, and what the state of the post-Blip world is like, to understand any of the nuances of what’s happening. Yes, forced relocations are probably not great, but for Sam to compare the GRC to Thanos? What?"
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
The flagsmashers were intending on killing innocents until they got their way. They weren’t doing it in one go like Thanos because they didn’t have that ability.

They were evil.
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Maybe this is Marvel's fault. Maybe it's their fault for not showing how bad the GRC is, instead simply telling us how bad. Maybe it's their fault for not showing enough good deeds the flag smashers were doing. Maybe they are overestimating their audience by doing this breadcrumb style of storytelling through multiple shows and movies. Maybe that's why you and some others here hold this opinion you do. Maybe that's why some of you here see just two sides instead of shades of gray. I mean even Marvel characters themselves classify threats by level, surely they wouldn't put a freedom fighter super soldier on the threat level of a universe destroyer(Thanos), right? But you do for some reason. So somewhere, the messaging failed.
 

sol_bad

Member
Rollingstone has a review out and pretty much has the same issue with the monologue and the Flag Smasher ideology that many others are saying: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-recaps/falcon-and-winter-soldier-finale-recap-1160293/

"The writers never figured out exactly what Karli stood for, why she was behaving more recklessly of late, why Sam was so drawn to her struggle, or any of the other things necessary for the chief antagonist. The goal was clearly to make her a complicated, reasonable villain like Killmonger, but nobody put in the work to make it make emotional sense. She’s just complicated because we’re told that she is. Lather, rinse, repeat for so many other finale developments."

"Sharon kills Karli to protect her true agenda, and that inspires Sam to give a long and rambling speech to the Senator (such a non-character he was never even given a name) and other members of the GRC about the evils of what they’re doing. Like Karli’s motivations, very little of what Sam is arguing is clearly articulated, outside of the parts about what it’s like to be a black man wearing the Stars and Stripes. We don’t know enough about what the GRC is doing, and what the state of the post-Blip world is like, to understand any of the nuances of what’s happening. Yes, forced relocations are probably not great, but for Sam to compare the GRC to Thanos? What?"

The comparison is fine within it's context.

Sam was saying that everyone felt helpless when Thanos erased half the universe because there was literally nothing they could do. Same with the immigrants (that the world governments have been more than happy to help and support for 5 years) being kicked out of their current home and country, these people also feel helpless because their freedoms are being taken out of their hands and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

Sam wasn't comparing the GRX to Thanos. He was comparing the victims and the governments inability to do anything against Thanos with the immigrants inability to do anything about their freedoms being taken away.
 

bitbydeath

Member
giphy.gif


Maybe this is Marvel's fault. Maybe it's their fault for not showing how bad the GRC is, instead simply telling us how bad. Maybe it's their fault for not showing enough good deeds the flag smashers were doing. Maybe they are overestimating their audience by doing this breadcrumb style of storytelling through multiple shows and movies. Maybe that's why you and some others here hold this opinion you do. Maybe that's why some of you here see just two sides instead of shades of gray. I mean even Marvel characters themselves classify threats by level, surely they wouldn't put a freedom fighter super soldier on the threat level of a universe destroyer(Thanos), right? But you do for some reason. So somewhere, the messaging failed.
Yeah, I haven’t read any of the comics. I’m only going off what I see in the show.
 

Great Hair

Banned
Bored Cabin Fever GIF by chuber channel
Tired Good Night GIF by MLB


No wizards, no aliens, no nothing.

This is as bad as Wonder Woman 1984, i think (unsure on that). The story, plot is boring as fuck ("prevent the vote"), the audio-battle-music was frankly just terrible and there is barely any action, but a lot of talking.

I don´t need a second season at all. Bucky was stronger in Phase 3, he was just a sidekick doing nothing and Falcon as helpless as ever. He runs off during a fight against a mercenary. Then he starts doing backflips ..

And they´re really going to rely solely on that twist as main-dish for a potential season 2?! "Oh no, she bad .."

Wonder Bra speech vs Failcon?
 

DeafTourette

Perpetually Offended
Yes they do, Karli’s entire plan was to get things back how Thanos made it.

That's not the story we were given. That may have been the ORIGINAL story but they had to 86 it because of COVID and didn't want people being offended by it since we went through that already.

They had to re-write and re-shoot everything and create a new conflict and reason for the FS. I think they just wanted things to be left alone as is... not revert everything back to how it was 5 yrs prior.

Yeah, I haven’t read any of the comics. I’m only going off what I see in the show.

I think that's all anyone's been using as reference: The show.
 

BouncyFrag

Member
Bored Cabin Fever GIF by chuber channel
Tired Good Night GIF by MLB


No wizards, no aliens, no nothing.

This is as bad as Wonder Woman 1984, i think (unsure on that). The story, plot is boring as fuck ("prevent the vote"), the audio-battle-music was frankly just terrible and there is barely any action, but a lot of talking.

I don´t need a second season at all. Bucky was stronger in Phase 3, he was just a sidekick doing nothing and Falcon as helpless as ever. He runs off during a fight against a mercenary. Then he starts doing backflips ..

And they´re really going to rely solely on that twist as main-dish for a potential season 2?! "Oh no, she bad .."

Wonder Bra speech vs Failcon?
The nerfing of Bucky was the worst. He was a beast in Winter Soldier and Civil War. Zemo landing himself on the raft does have some potential and his butler is OP as fuck, lol.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
The nerfing of Bucky was the worst. He was a beast in Winter Soldier and Civil War. Zemo landing himself on the raft does have some potential and his butler is OP as fuck, lol.
It is almost always the case when they go “good”, Bucky lost a lot in this transition. The Russo bros avoided it in Civil War mostly too, but the writers’ in this movie (which will leak into Cap 4) could not figure out how to keep him at that level without outshining Sam… maybe. Either that or I cannot explain it really.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
The goal was clearly to make her a complicated, reasonable villain like Killmonger, but nobody put in the work to make it make emotional sense. She’s just complicated because we’re told that she is.

Unfortunately like a lot of wannabe hotshots directors and writers, there is a goal but not enough work put in to make it flow and make sense… “c’mon we told you instead of shown you why… isn’t that shock and all enough?”
 

Peggies

Gold Member
OK, finally finished the show yesterday.
What the actual fuck was that?
I wanted to watch a superhero series with cool action and fighting scenes and an eerie villain.

What was the shit about that stupid boat? What's with all the black - white talk? Why does Sam constantly want to get rid of the shield and most important what kind of supervillain is that supposed to be?

Marvel Studios Smile GIF by Disney+


They fucked it up. Just like "The Witcher". My heart is shattered.
 
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JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member


Some points are dumb like the serum needing to make a character buff or the Wakanda women not being competent enough fighters

I had just watched the video and yea it seems like he didn't do his research and kind of half assed this one. He makes some decent points from a storytelling standpoint, but once he started to use real world logic in certain situations that are specific to Marvel lore, that's when the quality of his video suffered. The big one that stuck out to me, like you've stated, is him not knowing about the Wakandan Elite Guard and them literally training their entire lives with heavy ass vibranium metal. They literally need to be trained good enough to fight a person with super soldier abilities(because you get similar abilities becoming king) who's also wearing a black panther suit(absorbtion), in case of moments like, you know, Killmonger taking the throne and turning against everyone, were to happen.

Edit: Regarding Bucky, if you've been trained for years in a fighting style that relies on killshots, it will take you a long time to adjust your fighting style if you're not trying to kill people anymore. You see moments of hesitation and defensive fighting in most of his fight scenes. Most of his fighting actions were support-based and involved him saving Sam, Sharon, Zemo, and even Walker. The dude was clearly holding back and still managed to accidentally throw someone through a brick wall, and he even double checked to make sure that pipe he threw at that one rando, didn't completely kill the person.

Those of you who keep wanting a cold blooded killer, wait for the Punisher.
 
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pel1300

Member
OK, finally finished the show yesterday.
What the actual fuck was that?
I wanted to watch a superhero series with cool action and fighting scenes and an eerie villain.

What was the shit about that stupid boat? What's with all the black - white talk? Why does Sam constantly want to get rid of the shield and most important what kind of supervillain is that supposed to be?

Marvel Studios Smile GIF by Disney+


They fucked it up. Just like "The Witcher". My heart is shattered.
Ugh....what the fuck is up with her......she is right up with with Admiral Holdo for cringe character appearance (and moral ineptitude)

When will they realize that the antagonists need to seem...cool and intimidating?
 
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cormack12

Gold Member
Rollingstone has a review out and pretty much has the same issue with the monologue and the Flag Smasher ideology that many others are saying: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-recaps/falcon-and-winter-soldier-finale-recap-1160293/

"The writers never figured out exactly what Karli stood for, why she was behaving more recklessly of late, why Sam was so drawn to her struggle, or any of the other things necessary for the chief antagonist. The goal was clearly to make her a complicated, reasonable villain like Killmonger, but nobody put in the work to make it make emotional sense. She’s just complicated because we’re told that she is. Lather, rinse, repeat for so many other finale developments."

"Sharon kills Karli to protect her true agenda, and that inspires Sam to give a long and rambling speech to the Senator (such a non-character he was never even given a name) and other members of the GRC about the evils of what they’re doing. Like Karli’s motivations, very little of what Sam is arguing is clearly articulated, outside of the parts about what it’s like to be a black man wearing the Stars and Stripes. We don’t know enough about what the GRC is doing, and what the state of the post-Blip world is like, to understand any of the nuances of what’s happening. Yes, forced relocations are probably not great, but for Sam to compare the GRC to Thanos? What?"

Decent article overall. Hits a lot of the points that peope take issue with. The thing is it's a problem of their own making though. They could have contextualised Karli a lot differently. They could have just made her a cardboard cutout of Robin Hood. Then there are no real big resolution points within the plot, and though Sam's speech is so eye rolling as to give you sight cramp, it fits the world.

Giving them a pass is daft. They set up a really complex issue which allowed them to have an uncompromising 'villain'. There's no character complexity that is relevant to Karli. Take John Walker, his point of escalation was the death of Lamar. Karli lost Mama Donya but it was used as a scene for Sam to swoop in (and fail) rather than to incite an escalation. The escalation of Karli's actions come from herself - like suddenly deciding off the cuff to just blow up the building with people inside them. There is no complexity about her because the complexity is the situation - she has supes serum but she even says it herself. The movement will be strong enough without them (flagsmashers), this is not about Karli - she's just the visualisation of the problem. And they made her uncompromising, which is what the people are. Both sides. Unsnapped and new immigrants. She represents the ego and stubbornness of the people who would rather fight than take an unpalatable 'loss' in order for peace and prosperity. The serum is representative of where the issue is headed if it's uncapped. If enough people get extreme enough then they don't need the strength of 4/5 super soldiers, the strength will come from the numbers.

Sam's speech wasn't about solving problems, it was self serving in order to grow his reputation and ascendancy. It was to validate himself to the world but done in the worst possible way. Like I said, all we can do is go on what we have and what the show illustrates to us in world. This whole issue might be the premise of Cap 4, and maybe we will get answers/closure. But right now, it's just a bit of a mess.

Again though, these are meant to be cross generational/cross demographic shows. We've always had them like Dr. Who, Star Trek etc. You can take whatever complexity you want from them. They scale from youngsters right up to adults. They appeal to the nerds as well as just the action fans. You can take whatever you want from them, and there's nothing wrong with that. If you just wanna turn your head off and have a cool MCU series, fine. I've done it myself with films like Elysium - there are deeper questions there if you probe/analyse but honestly, I couldn't be arsed so just took the surface level messages from it. If you just want to take the message of 'Let's treat each other right' as an ideal (without any real resolution), fine - but the issues other people have with the show/speech aren't just conjured out of thin air. They are all part of the show, written, plotted, abandoned etc. and if those people want complex resolutions to complex problems and the show doesn't deliver then there's nothing wrong with that either.
 
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