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[FunkMiller]

US is fucked for a ton of reasons, which no other country has. I dont think even third world African countries with poor people, warlords and rebels have this many random shooting sprees at people in schools or grocery stores.

But you'll NEVER get gun violence down in the US for many reasons:

- Too many guns to start with in people's hands (most guns and highest per capita)
- Gun users in general seem to love owning one (NRA supporter or crime weary people needing a gun). I dont see too many gun users giving back guns. As crazy as it seems when violence goes up, people BUY MORE guns instead of letting it go
- A shit ton of those ultra patriotic/political "well, the constitution from hundred of years ago says people can bear arms, so I'm doing it"
- An overall culture of high crime rates (compared to other rich countries)
- A shit load of mentally whacked people who go on killing sprees (volatile culture). Can come from anything right discrimination, rich guy/poor guy issues, revenge, doing something to be famous, those camo miltia dudes who live in forest thinking the US gov is going to take over their houses and cars etc....

It makes no difference really. Whether it's trying to reduce gun availability, usage or improving mental stability. None of these are easy fixes.

Bang on. This conversation is pretty pointless, because sections of America will accept children being slaughtered every once in a while, so they can keep free and easy access to their guns. Same way alcohol is free and legal, even though it kills thousands.

I used to get angry about it, but now I figure I’m not in the country, it doesn’t affect me, and if that’s the way many of them want it, then *shoulder shrug*.

 

[LordCBH]

Pissed that they named the dead suspect because it doesn't fit their narrative and what the media was hoping it was.

Basically.

 

[LordCBH]

Time for a 34th amendment to get rid of the guns.

You'll get more support than you did for the 18th one I promise you.

Try it. I’ll defend my firearms with my firearms.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Two things can be true. Gun reform is important and crazy people shouldn't have them and that person could be mentally ill. He was most likely a sociopath, which is a mental illness. Being mentally ill doesn't just mean someone who hears voices. A wide range of things account for mental illness. A mentally well person doesn't plot to kill innocent people. Evil is a byproduct of mental illness. Whether it's a mass shooting or killing people one by one over a period of time like a serial killer does, mental illness is a major factor in people who desire to kill massive amounts of people.

But mental illness is not something unique to the US.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

US is fucked for a ton of reasons, which no other country has. I dont think even third world African countries with poor people, warlords and rebels have this many random shooting sprees at people in schools or grocery stores.

But you'll NEVER get gun violence down in the US for many reasons:

- Too many guns to start with in people's hands (most guns and highest per capita)
- Gun users in general seem to love owning one (NRA supporter or crime weary people needing a gun). I dont see too many gun users giving back guns. As crazy as it seems when violence goes up, people BUY MORE guns instead of letting it go
- A shit ton of those ultra patriotic/political "well, the constitution from hundred of years ago says people can bear arms, so I'm doing it"
- An overall culture of high crime rates (compared to other rich countries)
- A shit load of mentally whacked people who go on killing sprees (volatile culture). Can come from anything from discrimination, rich guy/poor guy issues, revenge, doing something to be famous, those camo miltia dudes who live in forest thinking the US gov is going to take over their houses and cars etc....

It makes no difference really. Whether it's trying to reduce gun availability, usage or improving mental stability. None of these are easy fixes.

Spot on, excellent post. Agree with everything you said.

Well maybe except the "African countries with warlords" part. Do we KNOW that? We don't get reliable (or in many cases, ANY) reports of gun violence from those countries, do we?

 

[chromhound]

What's really sad is we can't do a damn thing about it (The solutions are there but will get ignored...)

 

[mortal]

Why so surprised?

America is fine with their kids being killed.

Nothing changed since Sandy Hook… nothing will change due to this incident.

Get your heads out your ass America, you are completely deluded.

Would love to see you have the audacity to say that asinine shit to the faces of the parents of the victims, and tell them they don't care about their kids being killed.

Also, what is with this trend of blaming an entire country of people for the actions of a psychotic individual?
You're taking a tragic situation and politicizing it. Never mind the likelihood of mental illness playing a role in this tragedy.

 

[reksveks]

Myself included. Yet you've got people like R reksveks speaking for me and saying I'm "ignoring the biggest issue."

Like... Do we not know how things work at all? That you can pay attention to multiple issues at once? Since practically the majority of the thread is talking about gun control, I and a couple of others are highlighting another issue, one that is a contributor but nowhere near talked about as much as it should.

Do you want to comment on the disconnect between mental health issues and mass shooting rates between countries? Or do you agree that the availability of guns is the larger factor here and mental health is a relative smaller but still important one?

I am being pragmatic by focusing on the #1 factor* because all political systems have a concept of political capital which means that you are limited to the amount of things that you can do. Its sad but unfortunately it's true. Too often people (not you) have tried to claim its largely a mental health issue and therefore it can be solved by solving that. The stats don't seem to back that so forgive me for being focused on what I think is the biggest reason that the US has the most mass shootings in the world.

* you might believe that mental health is the biggest factor

 

[BattleMonkey]

What's really sad is we can't do a damn thing about it (The solutions are there but will get ignored...)

Politics and it being too late for the country to changes will have nothing change.

The media making big deals of it and highlighting the killers (what else are they gonna do) just makes things worse and attracts copy cats who want to die getting the attention they wanted.

 

[th4tguy]

I mean, the US has no bigger issue with mental illness than us here in the UK, but we have no mass shootings at all. Almost like there’s one big difference between the two countries.

Free healthcare to receive help for said illness?

I’m sure you meant stricter gun laws and I’d agree with that whole heartedly but as others have pointed out, we also have a healthcare problem that generally enables people with issues to go untreated and with the easy access to firearms, we get what we get.

I’m sure there are even more factors that could be fixed to drive down these problems but those are the two biggest in my eyes.

 

[Toons]

But mental illness is not something unique to the US.

Of course it's not. It's a political scapegoat. To blame it on something that no one can control, so then they can say we don't actually have to do anything about it.

Nothing to speak for the fact that this issue at this frequency isn't NEARLY as present elsewhere.

Mental illnesses has literally always been here. These people are plotting and executed planned killing sprees. They arent low functioning. They arent stupid. They need help, but more than that is they need to be prevented from being able to do these things.

That starts with making it much, much harder to get the tools needed to do these things. But can't have that. The lobbyists and "representatives" won't allow it.

 

[01011001]

'merica has no gun problem folks! it's just a coincidence that this happens at such a high rate in the US...

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Spot on, excellent post. Agree with everything you said.

Well maybe except the "African countries with warlords" part. Do we KNOW that? We don't get reliable (or in many cases, ANY) reports of gun violence from those countries, do we?

I made that opinion based on no evidence, but more for example even if untrue. But I'm sure everyone gets the drift I was stating.

When was the last time there was a story there were giant shootings at subways or bus terminals in Africa? I dont remember any. Although who knows maybe it happens a lot but its ha;f way around the world so nobody picks up the story.

Regardless, you'd think a big rich country like the US would have enough laws (which they sure seem to love enacting) to police this kind of thing for the past 50 years.

 

[Putonahappyface]

I mean, the US has no bigger issue with mental illness than us here in the UK, but we have no mass shootings at all. Almost like there’s one big difference between the two countries.

Our knife problem is getting out of control though.

 

[mr stroke]

US is fucked for a ton of reasons, which no other country has. I dont think even third world African countries with poor people, warlords and rebels have this many random shooting sprees at people in schools or grocery stores.

But you'll NEVER get gun violence down in the US for many reasons:

- Too many guns to start with in people's hands (most guns and highest per capita)
- Gun users in general seem to love owning one (NRA supporter or crime weary people needing a gun). I dont see too many gun users giving back guns. As crazy as it seems when violence goes up, people BUY MORE guns instead of letting it go
- A shit ton of those ultra patriotic/political "well, the constitution from hundred of years ago says people can bear arms, so I'm doing it"
- An overall culture of high crime rates (compared to other rich countries)
- A shit load of mentally whacked people who go on killing sprees (volatile culture). Can come from anything from discrimination, rich guy/poor guy issues, revenge, doing something to be famous, those camo miltia dudes who live in forest thinking the US gov is going to take over their houses and cars etc....

It makes no difference really. Whether it's trying to reduce gun availability, usage or improving mental stability. None of these are easy fixes.

Exactly

Whether you want guns or no guns (I’d prefer zero guns)
It’s NEVER happening in the USA. This is not a red or blue issue. Unfortunately America is obsessed with guns. People need to come up with a better solution here or more assholes are going to having shooting sprees every week

 

[BattleMonkey]

Would love to see you have the audacity to say that asinine shit to the faces of the parents of the victims, and tell them they don't care about their kids being killed.

Also, what is with this trend of blaming an entire country of people for the actions of a psychotic individual?
You're taking a tragic situation and politicizing it. Never mind the likelihood of mental illness playing a role in this tragedy.

It's inherently political because the only way to stop and change these things involves politics. Waving it all away by saying "mental illness" has done absolutely nothing time and time again. It's just more useless thoughts and prayers.

 

[balls of snow]

How is it possible that Texas dont have background checks on gun ownership. Like can any brown foreigner (example: me) just go in a store and buy a handgun. Nani the fuck.

 

[newtypepilot]

another school shooting in murica...
time to blame video games, miright?

 

[DragoonKain]

But mental illness is not something unique to the US.

Not generally, but the frequency may be. I stress may be, because I don't think there's enough reported data globally from other countries, but for example the state of California alone has had more serial killers than a lot the most populous countries combined. Now, it may be that other countries don't report data on the subject as thoroughly as the US does, and a lot of serial killers don't even use guns. So, the possibility is definitely out there that there is something about the culture of America that breeds violence.

But if your general point is guns make it easier to allow someone with a mental illness to commit violence, then I'd 100% agree with you. If I had my druthers, I'd prefer to live in a society where guns were incredibly rare and almost no civilians had them. It's one of the reasons I've thought about moving to Japan.

But again, I think two things can be true. America has a gun problem, but also a general violence problem. Some countries are much more peaceful even excluding the guns. I sometimes like to watch videos and documentaries on daily life in other countries and how much nicer, cleaner, and little crime some other countries have just blows me away.

 

[ItsGreat]

Try it. I’ll defend my firearms with my firearms.

Charlton Heston told us what we need to do in that case.

 

[Toons]

another school shooting in murica...
time to blame video games, miright?

"Yea forget that these psycho kids are getting guns meant for killing lots of people in their hands, let's talk about that game controller their holding and how they are killing pixels!!!"

 

[FunkMiller]

Free healthcare to receive help for said illness?

I’m sure you meant stricter gun laws and I’d agree with that whole heartedly but as others have pointed out, we also have a healthcare problem that generally enables people with issues to go untreated and with the easy access to firearms, we get what we get.

The NHS is terrible for mental health. I’d actually much rather be in America for that, even f it does cost money.

…Well, actually i’d rather be in Australia than either!

The main point being, these mass shootings aren‘t frequent in America because people have mental health issues. It’s because guns are easily available in the US, and they’re not in every other developed nation.

 

[FunkMiller]

Our knife problem is getting out of control though.

Oh, it’s a problem. But killings from knives in the UK last year?

224.

Gun deaths in America?

45222.

 

[Putonahappyface]

How is it possible that Texas dont have background checks on gun ownership. Like can any brown foreigner (example: me) just go in a store and buy a handgun. Nani the fuck.

How is ethnicity in any shape or form relevant?

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Lol I wasn't giving you permission. I was telling you that I'M not gonna be approaching this the same way you are.

You dont need to he an expert, nor does the solution need to be foolproof to see the core tenet of the issue and why this doesn't happen nearly as frequently in any other developed nation.

So if it's your preference to avoid touching on that topic, by all means. I won't be doing the same though. Paying respects to the families won't bring their dead child back. But there's NO question in my mind this country has the power to stop something like this from happening as frequently as it does. No question.

(1) So just because respect isn't bringing the children back from the dead, we shouldn't do it? Dude, it's called sympathy; it's an important part of bringing people together socially. So we shouldn't have paid respect for the fallen when 9/11 (or any other tragedy) happened, because it wouldn't "bring people back from the dead?"
(2) Notice in my interactions with FunkMiller that I am for more gun control.

BUT, like StreetsofBeige correctly and eloquently pointed out, it's a multi-faceted, complicated issue, with multiple fronts.

UNLESS we have a wholesale repeal of the Second Amendment via another amendment, this will be complicated by states all having their different rules. I live in a place with very tight gun control (and I usually vote for pro-gun control candidates), but that's where I live; I can't do anything about Texas, because I'm not a resident of Texas. Also note that New York, where the white supremacist terrorist attacked, is one of the states with tightest gun control in the country. Chicago, another place with tight gun control, has A LOT of gun violence -- it just doesn't get (inter)national media coverage because they're not "mass shootings," but A LOT MORE PEOPLE DIE ROUTINELY from gun violence in Chicago than they do in events like the one today. Including children.

Also as a country, we have a bad history with trying to repeal some stuff. We had a constitutional amendment (!!) to ban alcohol -- Well; how did THAT go? Not very well, to the point where they had to undo that amendment.

 

[Toons]

How is ethnicity in any shape or form relevant?

Its not. No idea why he felt the need to include that. But its a bad look.

 

[Putonahappyface]

Oh, it’s a problem. But deaths from knives in the UK last year?

224.

Gun deaths in America?

45222.

Oh I'm in no way comparing the body count, just stating the UK have there own issues which are on the rise.

 

[Sybrix]

Would love to see you have the audacity to say that asinine shit to the faces of the parents of the victims, and tell them they don't care about their kids being killed.

Also, what is with this trend of blaming an entire country of people for the actions of a psychotic individual?
You're taking a tragic situation and politicizing it. Never mind the likelihood of mental illness playing a role in this tragedy.

I’m not blaming an entire country, I didn’t think I had to spell it out that specifically but apparently I do.

Of course it’s not every American, however when you read fucked up shit like this you can’t help but think wtf America?!

I’m also not politicising anything, I haven’t mentioned politics once.

I am humanising it, i don’t live in America, I do love your country when I’ve visited, however I cannot understand how incidents like Sandy Hook and now this recent one brings about zero change to gun control.

Frankly, it’s embarrassing that the USA cannot sort this out.

 

[reksveks]

Rather, they found, in data that has since been repeatedly confirmed, that American crime is simply more lethal. A New Yorker is just as likely to be robbed as a Londoner, for instance, but the New Yorker is 54 times more likely to be killed in the process.

From the NY times article posted previously

The data seems to support this. "Robbery and assault rates ... reveal several Western nations that rival the United States," a 2011 review found. "While the level of lethal violence in the United States is probably the highest in the Western world, it is hard to make the case for US exceptionalism when it comes to non-lethal violence.

Need to double the paper referenced in https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9217163/america-guns-europe

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Exactly

Whether you want guns or no guns (I’d prefer zero guns)
It’s NEVER happening in the USA. This is not a red or blue issue. Unfortunately America is obsessed with guns. People need to come up with a better solution here or more assholes are going to having shooting sprees every week

If you are a believer, there's always the pro-gun view that MORE guns equals better safety as criminals and random insane people will have a harder time committing shootings if they know Billy Bob Zeke 10 ft away might have a carry on permit. So the argument is crime decreases as they are scared Billy B might shoot back.

 

[Putonahappyface]

Its not. No idea why he felt the need to include that. But its a bad look.

If we're honest it's generally white people on some form of medication.

 

[FunkMiller]

Oh I'm in no way comparing the body count, just stating the UK have there own issues which are on the rise.

It’s actually fallen! Knife deaths down from a peak of 281 in 2018.

The media like to blow it out of proportion more than a little…

 

[StateofMajora]

Serious question as a non US citizen, but what could change to stop further attacks like this?

Government could stop being corrupt and genuinely care about people so people have resources to live happily.

Schools could stop being indoctrination centers. Parents could actually care about their kids and raise them.

....Yeah. There's a reason I said nothing about guns.

 

[Maiden Voyage]

Something needs to change. I don’t know what exactly, but turning a blind eye isn’t getting us to a proper resolution.

RIP to the families of the victims.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Just waiting now for the president and other government officials to denounce gun violence meanwhile FUCK ALL get done to address gun control issue.
Like fucking clockwork every time this shit happens.

 

[Putonahappyface]

It’s actually fallen! Knife deaths down from a peak of 281 in 2018.

The media like to blow it out of proportion more than a little…

Fair enough I have been educated.

 

[Outlier]

Never do we talk about what drives people to do this. Mental illness needs to be the issue discussed

100%!!!

Judging by the photos of him, I suspect he was severely depressed/angry about things in his life. Right now we can only speculate what his motivation was, but to me it seems clear he was unhappy.

Depression -> frustration -> anger -> destruction. This seems a common path to people lashing out, if the symptoms aren't addressed, before it's too late.

 

[FunkMiller]

If you are a believer, there's always the pro-gun view that MORE guns equals better safety as criminals and random insane people will have a harder time committing shootings if they know Billy Bob Zeke 10 ft away might have a carry on permit. So the argument is crime decreases as they are scared Billy B might shoot back.

This would be a valid argument potentially, if firearms ownership required mandatory training, licensing and test approval before being allowed to have one. Like cars.

As it stands, Billy Bob is just as likely to kill himself/his wife/a nearby tree as he is the attacker.

 

[Toons]

(1) So just because respect isn't bringing the children back from the dead, we shouldn't do it? Dude, it's called sympathy; it's an important part of bringing people together socially. So we shouldn't have paid respect for the fallen when 9/11 (or any other tragedy) happened, because it wouldn't "bring people back from the dead?"
(2) Notice in my interactions with FunkMiller that I am for more gun control.

No one said it shouldn't be done. No one. What was said is that it won't being them back. And it won't stop this from happening again. Thats the real threat.

But if that's your preference, its yours. Mine is to attack the core issue that allows things like this to happen and the culture we've fostered here that treats guns as more valuable than children.

BUT, like StreetsofBeige correctly and eloquently pointed out, it's a multi-faceted, complicated issue, with multiple fronts.

UNLESS we have a wholesale repeal of the Second Amendment via another amendment, this will be complicated by states all having their different rules. I live in a place with very tight gun control (and I usually vote for pro-gun control candidates), but that's where I live; I can't do anything about Texas, because I'm not a resident of Texas. Also note that New York, where the white supremacist terrorist attacked, is one of the states with tightest gun control in the country. Chicago, another place with tight gun control, has A LOT of gun violence -- it just doesn't get (inter)national media coverage because they're not "mass shootings," but A LOT MORE PEOPLE DIE ROUTINELY from gun violence in Chicago than they do in events like the one today. Including children.

I fail to see your point. A whole bunch of states in tandem are doing everything they can to make sure the word "gay" isn't said in schools while ignoring this very real and very present threat. And when it manifests itself like this, they do anything BUT introduce legislation to fight it.

So where do their priorities truly lie? Thats what the question needs to be. Its not like they arent trying to fight multifaceted issues every day. They just aren't fighting the one that's actually killing children.

Also as a country, we have a bad history with trying to repeal some stuff. We had a constitutional amendment (!!) to ban alcohol -- Well; how did THAT go? Not very well, to the point where they had to undo that amendment.

Thats not an excuse to do nothing. Its good enough. This is the most powerful country on the planet. Thats not good enough.

 

[Dusktildawn48]

I don't want this to sound as if I'm saying loss of life in any other tragic situation is less meaningful but the fact this involved mostly children is gut wrenching.

Nah man, its worse when kids are involved.

 

[FunkMiller]

100%!!!

Judging by the photos of him, I suspect he was severely depressed/angry about things in his life. Right now we can only speculate what his motivation was, but to me it seems clear he was unhappy.

Depression -> frustration -> anger -> destruction. This seems a common path to people lashing out, if the symptoms aren't addressed, before it's too late.

But again… gently… I’d remind you that other countries have people with exactly the same problems, and no mass shootings occur. The problem is staring America in the face, but it’s decided it doesn’t want to tackle it.

 

[Outlier]

I know it's easier said than done, but we shouldn't rely on others to take care of our loved ones. Children are most vulnerable when adults don't have the tools to keep them safe, from extreme harm.

Parents might want to consider keeping their kids closer to them, even if that means getting them out of standard school systems.

 

[StateofMajora]

Just waiting now for the president and other government officials to denounce gun violence meanwhile FUCK ALL get done to address gun control issue.
Like fucking clockwork every time this shit happens.

The only thing they want to do is take all the guns away so we are defenseless. Everything else is rhetoric to inch towards that.

Yeah, trust the God damn ministry of truth to fix this...

 

[balls of snow]

How is ethnicity in any shape or form relevant?

Highlighting that I'm not American. What are they gonna check my pasport or id or can I just go ham on guns if I have some cash in a store.

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I do believe our mental health system needs to improve.

I think another issue maybe that family values here aren't as good as they used to be and especially aren't as good as they are in Europe and other nations where there's more emphasis on family and sticking together.

I'm not saying I know for sure but I really do believe that is an issue with family. The family structure seems to be eroding in the United States and more of these kids are raised by single parents or even married parents who don't seem to give a shit or whatever. A loving family goes a long way.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

I fail to see your point.

Because you're choosing to. I could not be any clearer.

A whole bunch of states in tandem are doing everything they can to make sure the word "gay" isn't said in schools

Ahhhhh.... OK, so now you've given yourself away. I know exactly where you stand and what your thought process is. I was hoping you were a more independent thinker, but I see you just repeat talking points.

I was willing to engage productively, but I think we're done here. Have a nice day, dude

 

[StateofMajora]

I know it's easier said than done, but we shouldn't rely on others to take care of our loved ones. Children are most vulnerable when adults don't have the tools to keep them safe, from extreme harm.

Parents might want to consider keeping their kids closer to them, even if that means getting them out of standard school systems.

Yeah. Home school your children and be more involved. Even if your income takes a hit. As long as you can pay the bills.

 

[Toons]

Government could stop being corrupt and genuinely care about people so people have resources to live happily.

Schools could stop being indoctrination centers. Parents could actually care about their kids and raise them.

....Yeah. There's a reason I said nothing about guns.

Yea, its definitely "indoctrination" that killed these kids. Not a bunch of bullets fallen into the hands of someone who should not have them.

 

[Dr.Guru of Peru]

Try it. I’ll defend my firearms with my firearms.

Thank you for your sacrifice.

 

[Putonahappyface]

Highlighting that I'm not American. What are they gonna check my pasport or id or can I just go ham on guns if I have some cash in a store.

I thought they did a mandatory 3-5 background check before you could purchase anything. Different in each state I guess.