Support NeoGAF

[Thraktor]

But is a decimated team really ready to show us their new game ? Did they get dev kits early enough ? Did they have enough time to use/modify/create a graphics engine for the new system ? If their project is similar in scope, can we already expect a reveal, especially with the increasing amount of work you have to put into HD games ?

You may be right, but I think it's legitimate to have doubts. I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo gives once again 3rd parties a bit more spotlight and focusses on only a few games they have in store for Wii U. A new RPG by Monolith would certainly be glorious though.

Then again, I'm not even sure if I expect Pikmin 3. Maybe I'm just a bit too pessimistic.

They're a first party studio, so they'll get devkits, or at least target specs, pretty much as soon as they exist. There is the possibility that they've been working on a 3DS game, but in that case we probably would have heard something about it by now.

And even if they are working on an absolutely enormous Wii U game, if they don't have a decent build of it to show after two years of development then something's quite amiss.

^^You're not just pessimistic, I feel the same way...we're both just pessimistic. But I think it's fair to assume with the increased time and budgets for HD games, that we can't pin any game down for launch for sure. My money is still on a Smash 1080p bundle with full network functions.

Smash Bros? Smash Bros is pretty much the one game we can guarantee not being a launch title, as it hadn't even started development yet at last year's E3.

 

[Zenaku]

But is a decimated team really ready to show us their new game ? Did they get dev kits early enough ? Did they have enough time to use/modify/create a graphics engine for the new system ? If their project is similar in scope, can we already expect a reveal, especially with the increasing amount of work you have to put into HD games ?

You may be right, but I think it's legitimate to have doubts. I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo gives once again 3rd parties a bit more spotlight and focusses on only a few games they have in store for Wii U. A new RPG by Monolith would certainly be glorious though.

Then again, I'm not even sure if I expect Pikmin 3. Maybe I'm just a bit too pessimistic.

http://www.monolithsoft.co.jp/special/interview/vol03/vol03_3.html

The pic in that article (dating to 1 month before Xenoblades release) was used with the first recruitment call they put out at the end of 2010. It's not known whether it is for the Wii U project, but it was assumed, and with the article in question talking about the advances in graphics and technologies it's a definite possibility.

Later articles about their Wii U mention research they've done in HD graphics to prepare themselves, and in the second Wii U interview Takahashi states the following:

"In the company we're moving forward while testing various things, but as you see it all moving, we feel it's coming together."

They definitely have an engine running. Whether they're using Xenoblade's engine as a base or created one from scratch, I have full confidence 2 years is enough to make a game of Xenoblade's caliber, especially after what they must have learned from Xenoblade.

A launch title may be a but optimistic, but I stand by my belief of an E3 reveal and a first year release.

 

[Fourth Storm]

They're a first party studio, so they'll get devkits, or at least target specs, pretty much as soon as they exist. There is the possibility that they've been working on a 3DS game, but in that case we probably would have heard something about it by now.

And even if they are working on an absolutely enormous Wii U game, if they don't have a decent build of it to show after two years of development then something's quite amiss.



Smash Bros? Smash Bros is pretty much the one game we can guarantee not being a launch title, as it hadn't even been started yet at last year's E3.

At least they let Sakurai in on the fact that he was making it this time.

 

[royalan]

http://www.monolithsoft.co.jp/special/interview/vol03/vol03_3.html

The pic in that article (dating to 1 month before Xenoblades release) was used with the first recruitment call they put out at the end of 2010. It's not known whether it is for the Wii U project, but it was assumed, and with the article in question talking about the advances in graphics and technologies it's a definite possibility.

Later articles about their Wii U mention research they've done in HD graphics to prepare themselves, and in the second Wii U interview Takahashi states the following:

"In the company we're moving forward while testing various things, but as you see it all moving, we feel it's coming together."

They definitely have an engine running. Whether they're using Xenoblade's engine as a base or created one from scratch, I have full confidence 2 years is enough to make a game of Xenoblade's caliber, especially after what they must have learned from Xenoblade.

A launch title may be a but optimistic, but I stand by my belief of an E3 reveal and a first year release.

Whatever scene that guy is working on looks absolutely beautiful and JRPG-like. I hope it's from an actual game...

 

[AceBandage]

Nintendo don't seem to think Monolithsoft mean anything to the West. They'll probably throw us a working title and maybe a few screen shots in that press packet they do every year if they have any interest at all in localizing the game.

I think they'll be able to show something, but the question is: "Will we really want to see it?" Those early Monado screens looked pretty bad and may have prematurely killed interest in the game for some of the more ignorant among us.

I don't think this is the case.
Rather, they weren't worth anything to the West on the Wii (and even then, we're still getting XB).
I think the Wii U will be a different story. A big RPG like XB would go a long way to securing more Japanese support if Nintendo made it successful in the West.

 

[Thraktor]

Lord I hope not. Between Wii and 3DS Nintendo should have learned by now not to expect 3rd parties to do anything. It's up to them to make their hardware appealing. And if they do that and provide a friendly platform, then the 3rd parties will come.

Nintendo needs to come out this year with guns blazing and fully intent on building a base of gamers. 3rd parties don't need spotlight. They just need hardware that will sell to people who'll buy their games.

You need third parties to get third parties, though. E3 isn't just a press event, it's also a means to show the industry what direction they want to take with the console. If they get up there and show nothing but family-friendly Nintendo games, then the rest of the industry is going to conclude that that's the audience that Nintendo are going for, and they won't bother pushing "mature" titles on the system. That impression can self-reinforce pretty quickly, so it's important for Nintendo to put the spotlight on third party games like CoD/AC/Madden/etc. right out of the gate, and do so in a way which really pushes "We've got the best versions of these games", and not just "We've got versions of these games".

Nintendo don't seem to think Monolithsoft mean anything to the West. They'll probably throw us a working title and maybe a few screen shots in that press packet they do every year if they have any interest at all in localizing the game.

I think they'll be able to show something, but the question is: "Will we really want to see it?" Those early Monado screens looked pretty bad and may have prematurely killed interest in the game for some of the more ignorant among us.

Well, yeah, I don't expect them to make a big deal out of it at their conference, but we'll probably get a brief snippet of it, then a proper reveal shortly after for Japanese audiences.

 

[wrowa]

Whatever scene that guy is working on looks absolutely beautiful and JRPG-like. I hope it's from an actual game...

That's art from an unreleased Baten Kaitos game. The only problem is that we don't know whether or not this is an old photo of a cancelled game or if Monolith is really working on a new Baten Kaitos.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I have serious doubts Nintendo want to make the Star Fox game we want to play. They seem to want Fox out of that Arwing, and they'll get him out by hook or by crook (even if it means hijacking an already in development title). After all, the characters have so much more potential than just being stars of a niche shooter game.

Then again, last I heard the 3DS remake of 64 didn't sell so well, so maybe the discouragement will convince them to just give the series to a Treasure or Platinum, have it developed at an appropriately low budget, and use it to silence the cries from us fans...or they could just retire the series altogether. :/

That's why I was saying the Battle Mii demo could actually be a prototype for multiplayer in Star Fox. They could make a good game with compelling multiplayer and keep the single player as it was in SF64. The idea of Treasure doing it occurred to me when I saw the running around with the nun chuck and aiming with the remote in the Battle Mii demo. This could still work in the ship as well and control similar to Sin and Punishment. They tried it with Namco, but the controls hampered the ability to offer good gameplay on foot. The Wii remote and nun chuck seems to be a natural fit for this type of game and fix a lot of these problems imo so it's a question really of whether or not Nintendo sees the gameplay in the demo as a fit for Starfox. The prototype is there, they just need to implement it.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think the realities of HD development costs are going to keep Nintendo from leaving many titles just in Japan.

Too much to lose that way.

 

[AceBandage]

I think the realities of HD development cost are going to keep Nintendo from leaving many titles just in Japan.

Too much to lose that way.

Agreed.
Especially if they're hoping to keep the userbase placated.

 

[BY2K]

You think because of HD more titles will get out of Japan?

There's still a lot of titles not leaving Japan on 360 and PS3, if memory serves.

 

[AzaK]

I would have agreed with you last month.
But ever since Nintendo stated that 2012 will be the year of the WiiU,
and, unlike the Wii, where they stated launch in Q4, I see WiiU launching soon after or during E3, where prices will be announced.

You simply cannot claim a "year" if your product is released at the end of the year.

Well with the Nintendo rep specifically saying that Wii U will release sometime between "the start of e3" and the end of year, I will turn off my logic circuits and come to the conclusion it will be released at e3.

 

[royalan]

You need third parties to get third parties, though. E3 isn't just a press event, it's also a means to show the industry what direction they want to take with the console. If they get up there and show nothing but family-friendly Nintendo games, then the rest of the industry is going to conclude that that's the audience that Nintendo are going for, and they won't bother pushing "mature" titles on the system. That impression can self-reinforce pretty quickly, so it's important for Nintendo to put the spotlight on third party games like CoD/AC/Madden/etc. right out of the gate, and do so in a way which really pushes "We've got the best versions of these games", and not just "We've got versions of these games".

I agree that Nintendo can't get up there and do a repeat of E3 2008 with nothing but casual family-friendly titles. But that's not all they're capable of. Nintendo has plenty of hardcore franchises (and the ability to create new ones) that they can focus on.

I agree that Nintendo needs to highlight 3rd parties in a way, but they can't rely on third parties to supply the hardcore experience on the Wii U. They did that with the Wii (and initially with the 3DS) and we all know what happened: the games never came, largely because 3rd parties didn't feel the audience was there because Nintendo was too busy painting the Wii as the console for your grandparents. If they're going to spotlight 3rd party efforts, they need be showing their own core gaming efforts right along with them.

As a matter of fact, I'm of the opinion that Nintendo would probably be better served not focusing on the casual market in the first year, period. Doing so would put them in direct competition with MS and Kinect - and I just don't think the uPad has a strong enough draw to pull that audience away from Kinect right now. It would be a waste of a year lead. But they can compete for gamers by hammering them with core gaming experiences on obviously more powerful hardware, and a controller that opens up infinite possibilities for core gaming.

Besides, as history has shown us, it's easy to make a hardcore gaming console appealing to casuals later on down the line. But it's nearly impossible to do the opposite and make a casual console appealing to hardcore gamers and the 3rd parties that service them.

 

[AceBandage]

Well with the Nintendo rep specifically saying that Wii U will release sometime between "the start of e3" and the end of year, I will turn off my logic circuits and come to the conclusion it will be released at e3.

Everyone in the audience gets a free Wii U.

I agree that Nintendo can't get up there and do a repeat of E3 2008 with nothing but casual family-friendly titles. But that's not all they're capable of. Nintendo has plenty of hardcore franchises (and the ability to create new ones) that they can focus on.

I agree that Nintendo needs to highlight 3rd parties in a way, but they can't rely on third parties to supply the hardcore experience on the Wii U. They did that with the Wii (and initially with the 3DS) and we all know what happened: the games never came, largely because 3rd parties didn't feel the audience was there because Nintendo was too busy painting the Wii as the console for your grandparents. If they're going to spotlight 3rd party efforts, they need be showing their own core gaming efforts right along with them.

As a matter of fact, I'm of the opinion that Nintendo would probably be better served not focusing on the casual market in the first year, period. Doing so would put them in direct competition with MS and Kinect - and I just don't think the uPad has a strong enough draw to pull that audience away from Kinect right now. It would be a waste of a year lead. But they can compete for gamers by hammering them with core gaming experiences on obviously more powerful hardware, and a controller that opens up infinite possibilities for core gaming.

Besides, as history has shown us, it's easy to make a hardcore gaming console appealing to casuals later on down the line. But it's nearly impossible to do the opposite and make a casual console appealing to hardcore gamers and the 3rd parties that service them.

They'll do what they did with the 3DS.
First year is a huge focus on the core market.
Second year is new expanded market games.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Smash Bros? Smash Bros is pretty much the one game we can guarantee not being a launch title, as it hadn't even started development yet at last year's E3.

I'm not talking about a new Smash, I'm talking about a HD re-release of Melee/Brawl with full on network functionality. Which would sell like hotcakes at launch.

 

[Thraktor]

You think because of HD more titles will get out of Japan?

There's still a lot of titles not leaving Japan on 360 and PS3, if memory serves.

Are there any XBox360 exclusives that have only released in Japan? You'd be limiting yourself to a pretty small market, there.

I'm sure you're right on PS3, though.

 

[Deguello]

You think because of HD more titles will get out of Japan?

There's still a lot of titles not leaving Japan on 360 and PS3, if memory serves.

I think it's more that they'll need as much exposure as possible for any games that Nintendo themselves make. There's no reason to keep it out because you think it might not be popular.

If anything Nintendo should know this by now, considering both Pokemon and Smash Brothers were considered "too Japanese" by the popular press. Now they're both Nintendo staples.

 

[Fourth Storm]

What Nintendo really needs are games available at launch that show off the capabilities of the Wii U pad in an intuitive way. The immediate runaway success of the Wii is almost entirely down to the fact that Wii Sports did just that with the Wii remote. They created what was basically the perfect, easy to pick up party game and bundled it in with the console. The multiplayer-oriented gameplay was a large part of this; by encouraging people to play the console with their friends, they were effectively getting people to advertise it to them at the same time.

NSMB Mii doesn't do that for the Wii U, at least not in the form it was in at E3. If they come up with an interesting use for the touch screen, like having one player control the enemies with it while the other players try to get through the level, then maybe, but to be honest I don't see it as a flagship launch title. Perhaps a few months after launch, when people's impressions of the system are less malleable.

What they should probably do is bundle a mini-game collection with the console, with a focus on asymmetric multiplayer games. The Chase Mii demo Nintendo showed at E3 genuinely looks like it could be the sort of intuitive fun that shows off the controller, although it's obviously not a system seller in itself. Bundle it with some more easy to pick up games in the same vein, though, and you've got a pack-in that could sell people on the new controller.

Of course, they'll obviously need a flagship "mature" title to showcase the graphical capabilities of the system and sell the system to that kind of crowd as well, which might be what Retro are working on. Careful money-hatting of third parties to get versions of the big games that both show off the graphics of the system as well as different ways to use the touchscreen would be very helpful to establish the console with that market, too.

There's absolutely zero chance that Nintendo will release a new version of the Wiimote with the Wii U. The entire point of using Wiimotes for asymmetrical multiplayer is to leverage the fact that there are already a couple hundred million of them out there. Not to mention that having 3 different versions of the controller would confuse the hell out of people.

On the Wii U pad, I'd say there's about a 50/50 chance that the console will support two of them. It's not about Nintendo being stubborn, it's technology and economics. Doubling the bandwidth of their streaming tech (which they'd need to to support two controllers) isn't trivial, and the cost of controllers sold separately will be huge. Either the console will be capable of streaming to two controllers at a time or not, there's no adding it in down the line. We should know which way they're going with this by E3 at the very latest, anyway.



They've already confirmed that the console will be compatible with USB hard-drives, so we won't be seeing a proprietary one, but a Nintendo branded USB drive is pretty much a given.

I want to go back and acknowledge this. You make a great point that NSMBM does not really highlight the best of WiiU's features, yet what else are they going to have as a killer app at launch? I'm betting on the fact that they don't take the same risk that they did w/ 3DS and have a killer app very soon after it launches. Although, my personal opinion is that they should give 3rd parties yet another chance for a few months. Launch in September and have Mario out by the end of November. But they'd have to pack in something on the level of Wii Sports in order to sell the thing. And IMO it's $299 or bust.

But what's your take on them selling the Wii U Pad individually at retail? They've only begrudgingly tasked themselves to getting 2 of them functional at the same time, and only under the pretenses that "you wanted to take your own controller over to a friend's" and not that anyone would have more than two as their own. If they don't sell it at retail, what else are people going to buy along w/ the system? There are always peripherals and such to sell alongside new consoles. While I'm of course willing to admit I could be wrong here, there is no better time to launch a new controller than at the launch of the console. Do you want to be stuck with merely Wii Motion+ in local multiplayer situations for another 5 years or so? I actually have an inkling you may be right, but they'll release a real successor to the Wii Remote half way through the console's life idiotically like w/ Wii Motion Plus itself.

In the meantime, we'll get something like that patent where the touch pad attaches to the Wii Remote and uses the IR camera in it. But it won't look as horrendous as the patent. It will be a full on shell which basically makes the Wii Remote+ into a Wii U tablet, only with the touch screen downgraded to a touch pad. A way to "soup up" your old Wii shit.

How can they get away with this? Because realistically use of the touch screen will come down to simple swipe gestures. Instead of L3 to duck it'll be swipe down real quick. Looking down for anything more than a split second in any quickly paced game would spell doom. Sure, it will be good as an inventory or map in adventures and RPGs, but we've been down this route before on the DS. The second screen is great in many ways, but its obvious uses are not necessarily its best. Even things like having the HUD on the controller are questionable. Defeats the purpose of it being a "HUD."

So actually, it's a (somewhat stop gap) solution I can see Nintendo implementing in order to piggypack off the WiiRemote+ while still getting people to buy more peripherals.

 

[Thraktor]

I agree that Nintendo can't get up there and do a repeat of E3 2008 with nothing but casual family-friendly titles. But that's not all they're capable of. Nintendo has plenty of hardcore franchises (and the ability to create new ones) that they can focus on.

I agree that Nintendo needs to highlight 3rd parties in a way, but they can't rely on third parties to supply the hardcore experience on the Wii U. They did that with the Wii (and initially with the 3DS) and we all know what happened: the games never came, largely because 3rd parties didn't feel the audience was there because Nintendo was too busy painting the Wii as the console for your grandparents. If they're going to spotlight 3rd party efforts, they need be showing their own core gaming efforts right along with them.

As a matter of fact, I'm of the opinion that Nintendo would probably be better served not focusing on the casual market in the first year, period. Doing so would put them in direct competition with MS and Kinect - and I just don't think the uPad has a strong enough draw to pull that audience away from Kinect right now. It would be a waste of a year lead. But they can compete for gamers by hammering them with core gaming experiences on obviously more powerful hardware, and a controller that opens up infinite possibilities for core gaming.

Besides, as history has shown us, it's easy to make a hardcore gaming console appealing to casuals later on down the line. But it's nearly impossible to do the opposite and make a casual console appealing to hardcore gamers and the 3rd parties that service them.

I agree with you for the most part, but games like Metroid Prime, as much as I love them, don't bring the CoD crowd. Even if they do focus on their own "core" games at first, they're going to need to show off the big third party titles as well.

I'm not talking about a new Smash, I'm talking about a HD re-release of Melee/Brawl with full on network functionality. Which would sell like hotcakes at launch.

I can't see them re-releasing Melee/Brawl in HD if they have a new one in development. Especially as a launch title, given that it would barely make use of the Wii U pad at all, or show off the graphical power of the machine.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I'm not talking about a new Smash, I'm talking about a HD re-release of Melee/Brawl with full on network functionality. Which would sell like hotcakes at launch.

Sakurai would never allow it.

 

[AceBandage]

SAKURAIII!

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Sakarai needs to go! This idea serves the greater good damnit!!!!

 

[AceBandage]

Sakarai needs to go! This idea serves the greater good damnit!!!!

Sorry, but he created Kirby, he gets a free pass for life.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Sorry, but he created Kirby, he gets a free pass for life.

Nah, they need to hand off Kirby to me. Get Sakarai on the new Smash, and do the HD re-release. XD

But seriously, if a HD repack of Smash hit at launch with epic online, it would be the first game I'd buy. And lots of others too.

 

[Instro]

That's art from an unreleased Baten Kaitos game. The only problem is that we don't know whether or not this is an old photo of a cancelled game or if Monolith is really working on a new Baten Kaitos.

Well its likely the art is for the game they are working on, BK or otherwise. That and this more recent image: http://i.minus.com/ib1rwvfoXUB0Tf.jpg in the same artstyle were used as part of their recruitment iirc. I don't think Honne would be spending his time on this stuff if it weren't for the game he is currently working on.

 

[Thraktor]

I want to go back and acknowledge this. You make a great point that NSMBM does not really highlight the best of WiiU's features, yet what else are they going to have as a killer app at launch? I'm betting on the fact that they don't take the same risk that they did w/ 3DS and have a killer app very soon after it launches. Although, my personal opinion is that they should give 3rd parties yet another chance for a few months. Launch in September and have Mario out by the end of November. But they'd have to pack in something on the level of Wii Sports in order to sell the thing. And IMO it's $299 or bust.

But what's your take on them selling the Wii U Pad individually at retail? They've only begrudgingly tasked themselves to getting 2 of them functional at the same time, and only under the pretenses that "you wanted to take your own controller over to a friend's" and not that anyone would have more than two as their own. If they don't sell it at retail, what else are people going to buy along w/ the system? There are always peripherals and such to sell alongside new consoles. While I'm of course willing to admit I could be wrong here, there is no better time to launch a new controller than at the launch of the console. Do you want to be stuck with merely Wii Motion+ in local multiplayer situations for another 5 years or so? I actually have an inkling you may be right, but they'll release a real successor to the Wii Remote half way through the console's life idiotically like w/ Wii Motion Plus itself.

In the meantime, we'll get something like that patent where the touch pad attaches to the Wii Remote and uses the IR camera in it. But it won't look as horrendous as the patent. It will be a full on shell which basically makes the Wii Remote+ into a Wii U tablet, only with the touch screen downgraded to a touch pad. A way to "soup up" your old Wii shit.

How can they get away with this? Because realistically use of the touch screen will come down to simple swipe gestures. Instead of L3 to duck it'll be swipe down real quick. Looking down for anything more than a split second in any quickly paced game would spell doom. Sure, it will be good as an inventory or map in adventures and RPGs, but we've been down this route before on the DS. The second screen is great in many ways, but its obvious uses are not necessarily its best. Even things like having the HUD on the remote are questionable. Defeats the purpose of it being a "HUD."

So actually, it's a (somewhat stop gap) solution I can see Nintendo implementing in order to piggypack off the WiiRemote+ while still getting people to buy more peripherals.

I think the great "leave a space for third parties to fill at the launch of a console" experiment has failed quite spectacularly, and unlike the 3DS, the Wii U won't have much time to patch things together before its first holiday season. Nintendo need to release the console with at least two big first party titles, but they'll also need to emphasise their big third-party titles too, including putting money towards advertising them, with the Wii U prominent in the adverts. They need to make sure games like CoD/AC/Madden/[insert yearly franchise] sell on the console, but before that they need to make sure the console sells. So they're going to need their exclusive first party titles, and they'll also need to really push the idea that the Wii U versions of said third party games are the ones to own, both graphically and in terms of features.

My guess is that if they do allow two Wii U pads on one console they'll basically have to sell them at retail, but they won't be making any decent profit margin on them if they want to keep them affordable. There'll be a bit of revenue from Wiimotes, Nintendo branded SD cards and HDDs, and perhaps from things like the Wii U pad scope thingy. I'd love it if they released wireless Wii U compatible NES, SNES, N64 and Gamecube controllers for playing VC games with, but that's probably a pipe dream. I don't really know what other peripherals Nintendo will be looking to make money off, but given the emphasis at last year's E3 on using Wiimotes with the Wii U, it's unlikely to be a third kind of controller for Wii U games.

I don't think we're going to get anything that turns a Wiimote into anything like the Wii U pad, both because it's impractical, but also because I don't share your pessimism for the use of the screen. I actually think the Wii U pad has the potential to be employed really well by third parties. Unlike the Wiimote, which was a completely different control paradigm, the Wii U pad is basically a normal controller plus. This means they can take their traditional controls and think "What can we do with the touchscreen?", rather than having to rebuild the control scheme from the ground up. Of course, the default will be a map or inventory, but if Nintendo provides a bit of "technical support"

Spoiler

(money)

then they might help encourage third parties to pursue more innovative uses of the screen. Doing so early will also foster the expectation from gamers that it's there for more than just a map.

 

[EricDiesel]

But seriously, if a HD repack of Smash hit at launch with epic online, it would be the first game I'd buy. And lots of others too.

Well, don't you think highly of your own idea.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Well, don't you think highly of your own idea.

I do indeed! But anyway, if not a Smash repack what would be your idea? I might think highly of that too.

 

[JJConrad]

I agree that Nintendo can't get up there and do a repeat of E3 2008 with nothing but casual family-friendly titles. But that's not all they're capable of. Nintendo has plenty of hardcore franchises (and the ability to create new ones) that they can focus on.

I agree that Nintendo needs to highlight 3rd parties in a way, but they can't rely on third parties to supply the hardcore experience on the Wii U. They did that with the Wii (and initially with the 3DS) and we all know what happened: the games never came, largely because 3rd parties didn't feel the audience was there because Nintendo was too busy painting the Wii as the console for your grandparents. If they're going to spotlight 3rd party efforts, they need be showing their own core gaming efforts right along with them.

As a matter of fact, I'm of the opinion that Nintendo would probably be better served not focusing on the casual market in the first year, period. Doing so would put them in direct competition with MS and Kinect - and I just don't think the uPad has a strong enough draw to pull that audience away from Kinect right now. It would be a waste of a year lead. But they can compete for gamers by hammering them with core gaming experiences on obviously more powerful hardware, and a controller that opens up infinite possibilities for core gaming.

Besides, as history has shown us, it's easy to make a hardcore gaming console appealing to casuals later on down the line. But it's nearly impossible to do the opposite and make a casual console appealing to hardcore gamers and the 3rd parties that service them.

A console is defined in its first year. They need games that cater to both spectrum. They do need to excite their core base at launch to ignite hype (which they did do with the Wii but not the 3DS), but waiting until after the first year to refocus is suicide. It's isn't "easy" to redefine yourself nor should you want to when you can do it right the first time.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I think the great "leave a space for third parties to fill at the launch of a console" experiment has failed quite spectacularly, and unlike the 3DS, the Wii U won't have much time to patch things together before its first holiday season. Nintendo need to release the console with at least two big first party titles, but they'll also need to emphasise their big third-party titles too, including putting money towards advertising them, with the Wii U prominent in the adverts. They need to make sure games like CoD/AC/Madden/[insert yearly franchise] sell on the console, but before that they need to make sure the console sells. So they're going to need their exclusive first party titles, and they'll also need to really push the idea that the Wii U versions of said third party games are the ones to own, both graphically and in terms of features.

My guess is that if they do allow two Wii U pads on one console they'll basically have to sell them at retail, but they won't be making any decent profit margin on them if they want to keep them affordable. There'll be a bit of revenue from Wiimotes, Nintendo branded SD cards and HDDs, and perhaps from things like the Wii U pad scope thingy. I'd love it if they released wireless Wii U compatible NES, SNES, N64 and Gamecube controllers for playing VC games with, but that's probably a pipe dream. I don't really know what other peripherals Nintendo will be looking to make money off, but given the emphasis at last year's E3 on using Wiimotes with the Wii U, it's unlikely to be a third kind of controller for Wii U games.

I don't think we're going to get anything that turns a Wiimote into anything like the Wii U pad, both because it's impractical, but also because I don't share your pessimism for the use of the screen. I actually think the Wii U pad has the potential to be employed really well by third parties. Unlike the Wiimote, which was a completely different control paradigm, the Wii U pad is basically a normal controller plus. This means they can take their traditional controls and think "What can we do with the touchscreen?", rather than having to rebuild the control scheme from the ground up. Of course, the default will be a map or inventory, but if Nintendo provides a bit of "technical support"

Spoiler

(money)

then they might help encourage third parties to pursue more innovative uses of the screen. Doing so early will also foster the expectation from gamers that it's there for more than just a map.

I agree they need at least two big first party games right out of the gate. Pikmin definitely isn't one of those titles. If anything, that's something you release at the end of winter after the inevitable games drought (and thematically it would work nicely). I've been feeling Wave Race lately, but who knows? They'll definitely have one "mini-game fest" whether that resembles Wii Sports, Wii Play, or incorporates that Chase Mii demo I don't really care as long as it is fun and makes great use of the controller. I think a 2D Mario game is due next year so I'm banking on that being at launch. And I agree that 3rd parties aren't to be trusted and it should be there day 1, but only Nintendo knows what 3rd party games are coming. If we really are getting the hottest games of that season and in best form, they should by all means delay Mario until late November, as that is an "evergreen" title while the latest Assassin's Creed may not be (if only because it's a yearly franchise, saying nothing of the quality).

Also, my presupposition on selling the controllers at retail is based on Nintendo's official word. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to not sell them individually if they do have 2 working simultaneously now (would be key for Madden, which you mentioned), and from what I've heard the technology is good enough. Everything is based on the economy though. If the system is pricey, selling a very pricey controller alongside it is probably not the wisest thing to do. I think if they sell the system at $299 and the additional controller for $99, that's fine if they only expect people to buy one extra. I mean, the 360 Wifi adapter was $99, the system $400 at launch and they still got my money eventually (the bastards...haha).

And I still hold that patent will come to some sort of fruition. More ranting to come.

 

[royalan]

I agree with you for the most part, but games like Metroid Prime, as much as I love them, don't bring the CoD crowd. Even if they do focus on their own "core" games at first, they're going to need to show off the big third party titles as well.

This is why I really want the Wii U gen to be the one where Nintendo goes back to its roots and creates new IP. And I'm not talking about Wii_____ games or Brain Training, but new gamer-oriented IP with all new mascots to add to their glorious pantheon.

Because you're right: no current Nintendo franchise is going to appeal to anyone but Nintendo fans. But it's not the fans they need to worry about. Nintendo's fortunate in that they're one of the few developers out there with a large chunk of fans that are loyal to the company, and not just the games. Nintendo fans will buy Nintendo games, regardless of which mascot is featured.

This is why they should focus on new IP. Nintendo fans will buy it regardless (especially those of us who've been begging for new Nintendo IP), and they'll go a lot further to attract those gamers who've already written off Link and Samus. Respected characters, but more a symbol of what gaming used to be and not forerunners of the future.

I think they need a new character that really represents their move into the HD era.

A console is defined in its first year. They need games that cater to both spectrum. They do need to excite their core base at launch to ignite hype (which they did do with the Wii but not the 3DS), but waiting until after the first year to refocus is suicide. It's isn't "easy" to redefine yourself nor should you want to when you can do it right the first time.

Tell that to the Xbox 360 this gen, and the PS2 the gen before. Neither console was super casual during the first few years of their launches. But after a price drop, some rebranding, and a few choice titles they went on to sell in monumental numbers to casual audiences.

The reverse won't happen with the Wii. There is nothing the Wii could do at this point to attract hardcore gamers after spending so much time focusing on casual audiences. The Wii is dead. Has been for a while.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

I agree they need at least two big first party games right out of the gate. Pikmin definitely isn't one of those titles. If anything, that's something you release at the end of winter after the inevitable games drought (and thematically it would work nicely). I've been feeling Wave Race lately, but who knows? They'll definitely have one "mini-game fest" whether that resembles Wii Sports, Wii Play, or incorporates that Chase Mii demo I don't really care as long as it is fun and makes great use of the controller. I think a 2D Mario game is due next year so I'm banking on that being at launch. And I agree that 3rd parties aren't to be trusted and it should be there day 1, but only Nintendo knows what 3rd party games are coming. If we really are getting the hottest games of that season and in best form, they should by all means delay Mario until late November, as that is an "evergreen" title while the latest Assassin's Creed may not be (if only because it's a yearly franchise, saying nothing of the quality).

Also, my presupposition on selling the controllers at retail is based on Nintendo's official word. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to not sell them individually if they do have 2 working simultaneously now (would be key for Madden, which you mentioned), and from what I've heard the technology is good enough. Everything is based on the economy though. If the system is pricey, selling a very pricey controller alongside it is probably not the wisest thing to do. I think if they sell the system at $299 and the additional controller for $99, that's fine if they only expect people to buy one extra. I mean, the 360 Wifi adapter was $99, the system $400 at launch and they still got my money eventually (the bastards...haha).

And I still hold that patent will come to some sort of fruition. More ranting to come.

My theory at this point is.

New Super Mario Bros. Mii is the launch (or near launch) killer app with Pikmin 3 not too far behind. Eitherway, those are the two big character based intellectual properties surrounding the systems debut. Both should be developed internally inside of EAD's different development teams. But I'd say theres a small chance, another developer may be involved with Pikmin 3.

Launch to Holiday First-Part Titles

EAD - New Super Mario Bros. Mii
EAD - Pikmin 3
EAD - 1 or 2 new tablet-mii games
NST or Monster - Wii Sports HD
NST or Monster - HD Racer
EAD or NST or NdCube - Wii Fit HD

Hopefully there are more surprises of course. But based on the evidence that has been presented, this is my initial assumption.

 

[royalan]

My theory at this point is.

New Super Mario Bros. Mii is the launch (or near launch) killer app with Pikmin 3 not too far behind. Eitherway, those are the two big character based intellectual properties surrounding the systems debut. Both should be developed internally inside of EAD's different development teams. But I'd say theres a small chance, another developer may be involved with Pikmin 3.

Launch to Holiday First-Part Titles

EAD - New Super Mario Bros. Mii
EAD - Pikmin 3
EAD - 1 or 2 new tablet-mii games
NST or Monster - Wii Sports HD
NST or Monster - HD Racer
EAD or NST or NdCube - Wii Fit HD

Hopefully there are more surprises of course. But based on the evidence that has been presented, this is my initial assumption.

No offense, but outside of Pikmin 3 that sounds like an absolutely godawful launch lineup that would do nothing but reaffirm that Wii U is just a fatter Wii.

 

[Deguello]

This is why they should focus on new IP. Nintendo fans will buy it regardless (especially those of us who've been begging for new Nintendo IP),

So like, that's why everybody went out and made Steel Diver a multimillion-selling title, right?

 

[Anth0ny]

An HD Melee with flawless netcode would be the game of the forever.


Seriously, I'd stop buying games. That's all I need right there.

 

[royalan]

So like, that's why everybody went out and made Steel Diver a multimillion-selling title, right?

Hey - there are exceptions to every rule...heh heh...

Spoiler

Besides, Steel Diver kinda sucked...not even Nintendo can hit every ball out of the park...

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

No offense, but outside of Pikmin 3 that sounds like an absolutely godawful launch lineup that would do nothing but reaffirm that Wii U is just a fatter Wii.

Keep in mind that there will be third party games. But lets say the Wii U launched with New Super Mario Bros. Mii, Wave Race HD, and Wii Sports HD alongside some third party titles. That is actually a great potential launch. Especially if a new Pikmin and other surprises follow trail in the months after.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I don't think we're going to get anything that turns a Wiimote into anything like the Wii U pad, both because it's impractical, but also because I don't share your pessimism for the use of the screen. I actually think the Wii U pad has the potential to be employed really well by third parties. Unlike the Wiimote, which was a completely different control paradigm, the Wii U pad is basically a normal controller plus. This means they can take their traditional controls and think "What can we do with the touchscreen?", rather than having to rebuild the control scheme from the ground up. Of course, the default will be a map or inventory, but if Nintendo provides a bit of "technical support"

Spoiler

(money)

then they might help encourage third parties to pursue more innovative uses of the screen. Doing so early will also foster the expectation from gamers that it's there for more than just a map.

I'm not at all pessimistic for the use of the screen. I just think those best functions are fine for only one or two max screens, not local 4 player games. As in, Wii U is not designed with games in mind like Zelda 4 Swords where everyone gets their own screen or a Mario Kart title w/ such a feature. We know what good second screens are for and we know how Nintendo sees one as major (the top screen of the 3DS and the HD screen in your home) and one being minor.

I'm completely excited for things like video chat and the 360 degree free look feature in FPS games. I'm down for asymetrical multiplayer with a tactical element and really everything in that e3 video looked cool as hell. But what else? Let's imagine a Star Fox game where Falco is looking at you on the screen. It doesn't work at all. What is the main HD screen rendering? An image that you're not looking at? Things like an inventory in Zelda are cool because you have time to breathe in that type of game. In a fast paced game (action, racing, fighters, platformers), the second screen has no immediate function beyond a quick tap or swipe. All this hotkey talk is hogwash. What good is a hotkey if you have to take time and look down? The dpad will function as hotkeys in all multiplatform titles most likely, as it rightly should because you can actually feel without looking like on a keyboard.

If that patent comes in handy for the control schemes of enough games (i.e. traditional controls plus swipes), it could be a valid product. Also, if they make the touch pad nice and large, it will be good for drawing, an aspect of Wii U I do not think people are emphasizing enough...

 

[Anth0ny]

No offense, but outside of Pikmin 3 that sounds like an absolutely godawful launch lineup that would do nothing but reaffirm that Wii U is just a fatter Wii.

Really? Compare it to other launches.

Not to mention Diablo 3 would be there. That is a solid potential launch lineup.

 

[AceBandage]

I still say we'll never see NSMBM actually be released.
They'll go with a new type of Mario game like 3D Land that pleases both set of fans.

 

[royalan]

Really? Compare it to other launches.

Not to mention Diablo 3 would be there. That is a solid potential launch lineup.

Diablo 3 alone would make for a killer launch title...

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

I still say we'll never see NSMBM actually be released.
They'll go with a new type of Mario game like 3D Land that pleases both set of fans.

What???? You are aware of how much NSMB sold right? Multiplayer NSMB will outsell any 3D Mario game by quadruple.

And what is with the Diablo mentions?

 

[royalan]

What???? You are aware of how much NSMB sold right? Multiplayer NSMB will outsell any 3D Mario game by quadruple.

And what is with the Diablo mentions?

I think NSMB sold so well because it was the perfect Wii title.

I don't think it would have the same effect on the Wii U...simply because it wouldn't be much different than the Wii title.

 

[Deguello]

Hey - there are exceptions to every rule...heh heh...

Spoiler

Besides, Steel Diver kinda sucked...not even Nintendo can hit every ball out of the park...

Sin and Punishment? Drill Dozer? Endless Ocean?

In fact the only recent new IP that became a success is Wii ____. And Brain Age. But that's probably not who you mean by "us Nintendo fans begging for new IPs," right?

It's not just new IP that will suffice will it? It's Mario, Zelda, and Pokemon being ended because a few jaded people are tired of them. And that ain't happening.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

I think NSMB sold so well because it was the perfect Wii title.

I don't think it would have the same effect on the Wii U...simply because it wouldn't be much different than the Wii title.

Well they showed off two big features for the series. Zapping. And Mii characters. I think that having four Mii protagonists will be huge for family Wii gaming. HUGE.

 

[JJConrad]

Tell that to the Xbox 360 this gen, and the PS2 the gen before. Neither console was super casual during the first few years of their launches. But after a price drop, some rebranding, and a few choice titles they went on to sell in monumental numbers to casual audiences.

The reverse won't happen with the Wii. There is nothing the Wii could do at this point to attract hardcore gamers after spending so much time focusing on casual audiences. The Wii is dead. Has been for a while.

You tell that to the 360! MS has spent hundreds of millions dollars to reinvent its self and its only been somewhat effective in one territory.

The PS2 never needed to change it perception. In fact, Sony attempt to make the PS3 more "hardcore" was a part of its problem. They failed to compete with the 360 in that regard and completely alienated a sector of the market that Nintendo had their hands wide open towards. If Nintendo assumes that the "casual" base will simply wait around for them to start paying attention to them, then they are begging MS to steal more of that market.

 

[AceBandage]

Well they showed off two big features for the series. Zapping. And Mii characters. I think that having four Mii protagonists will be huge for family Wii gaming. HUGE.

Really?
You think people will really care about Miis in a Mario game?

 

[Richie]

This is why I really want the Wii U gen to be the one where Nintendo goes back to its roots and creates new IP. And I'm not talking about Wii_____ games or Brain Training, but new gamer-oriented IP with all new mascots to add to their glorious pantheon...they'll go a lot further to attract those gamers who've already written off Link and Samus. Respected characters, but more a symbol of what gaming used to be and not forerunners of the future.

I think they need a new character that really represents their move into the HD era.

Thumbs up to this post. To help the 3DS on the software front, Nintendo chose the safe route and pulled the Mario card, releasing both a proper platformer entry and the console's Kart installment. Now, Mario is proven to be a system seller, and the series is renowned for its quality, but there's no need for it to be one of the sole franchises Nintendo could rely on to bring the cash in times of trouble; Wii Sports' smashing success proved that plumbers and pokémons aren't mandatory to sell innovative ideas in the market.
That can happen again, but now that the Mii concept is firmly established (and not limited to Nintendo's consoles), there's serious benefit to be had in inventing IPs with new characters to expand the number of genres Nintendo can explore and the variety of audiences they can reach.

 

[BY2K]

Really? Compare it to other launches.

Not to mention Diablo 3 would be there. That is a solid potential launch lineup.

Would you stop giving GNintendo ideas? We know Diablo 3 is coming to consoles, but I would be surprised if it was coming to Wii U too.

 

[Vic]

I think the realities of HD development costs are going to keep Nintendo from leaving many titles just in Japan.

Too much to lose that way.

Well, Nintendo uses simplistic artstyles for many of their games which should keep certain titles relatively cheap to make (eg.: Kiki Trick). Wii U games with the calibre of Xenoblade won't stay in Japan like it almost did on the Wii.