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Halo |OT6| I will not allow you to leave this thread!

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T

The Librarian

Banned
I put these three gameplay videos from RTX into the OP. I wish, however, we had gameplay videos like the MLG videos from E3 (an example) where it's nothing but the game's sound design filling up the audio space (or a developer clarifying gameplay elements). These videos got me hyped to play the game, and I would love to see an equivalent for Longbow.

As it is with the RTX videos, we have to deal with very annoying announcers spouting off useless information like this: "Obviously Longbow presents some interesting challenges and opportunities here." Really?
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Deputy Moonman said:
In Reach, power weapons dictate the outcome of way too many games, if not most of them. Each new halo game seems to get worse in that area and that's not how it should be. Thinking back to combat evolved days, power weapons didn't dominate games and make you King Blainder of the universe. They just helped you get some extra kills here and there. The shotgun didn't really play like a power weapon in CE, and the sniper rifle was much, much more difficult to use. So, the rocket launcher and sniper rifle were really the only two power weapons. Now you have maps littered with power weapons, making Reach a cesspool of power weapon whoring. I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

TL;DR it's just deputy moonman
Click to expand...
I agree with you on this completely. When I played CE, the thing that stood out to me with the two weapon inventory was that every weapon was balanced in its own way. Unlike the FPS games I was used to before it where there was a clear weapon progression where you'd start with a dinky shotgun, and work your way up to finding better and better weapons because you could hold them all. In Halo a pistol was good because it could zoom and tackle any range with its three shots. A sniper could tackle long ranges with its one shot kills. A shotgun could tackle short ranges with its one shot kills. A rocket could handle mid range and vehicles with its ridiculous blast radius, but its capacity was extremely limited. I realize I'm mostly naming power weapons here, but it felt like a decent tradeoff between the AR and pistol that one would be the one you would spray with reckless abandon and the other would be more trusty with precision.

Anyhoo this was just my initial impression of the design for the game and what made it appealing to me in the first place, naturally some of the weapons fell by the wayside-- but I feel like the division between utility and power has become more and more stark as the series progressed. In my time with Reach, it's like you said, power weapon or don't bother.
 
E

ElzarTheBam

Member
Dax01 said:
Squidhands, Tunavi – I'm really looking forward to some in-depth impressions from you guys.
Click to expand...

Same here.

Striker said:
We've yet to see CTF or any other non-Slayer or Regicide game have we?

From the discussion back several months ago, we were told about more Halo 4 maps being more objective based. It would be pretty nice to see Haven CTF or Longbow CTF action some time. And would Frankie or David Ellis clarify if Assault is coming back to matchmaking? It was not noted in the RTX statement when grouping up returning gametypes -- Oddball and KotH were mentioned, however.

I did say previously how I'm sure they'll keep it in for Grifball's sake, but it should be one of the dominant objective modes.
Click to expand...

Haven CTF could be quite good, purely from a map layout and flow perspective.
 
H

Hypertrooper

Member
Deputy Moonman said:
So since I'm pretty much clueless most of the time, can someone clarify whether or not power weapons begin as a static drop at the beginning of matches, or do they only come from ordinance drops?

If they really only come from ordinance drops, I'm a fan of the new method. No more getting 2-4 easy kills simply for getting to a power weapon first. Now you at least have to earn it with killing sprees and good game play, assuming that's how it works. I know there is some strategy from a competitive standpoint in fighting over the power weapons, but unless you start off with purely even teams, which almost never happens (matchmaking, especially), power weapons are just a derp derp kill machine for whoever gets to them first. So I am continuing my campaign against them.

In Reach, power weapons dictate the outcome of way too many games, if not most of them. Each new halo game seems to get worse in that area and that's not how it should be. Thinking back to combat evolved days, power weapons didn't dominate games and make you King Blainder of the universe. They just helped you get some extra kills here and there. The shotgun didn't really play like a power weapon in CE, and the sniper rifle was much, much more difficult to use. So, the rocket launcher and sniper rifle were really the only two power weapons. Now you have maps littered with power weapons, making Reach a cesspool of power weapon whoring. I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

TL;DR it's just deputy moonman
Click to expand...
There are two ways of "drops". The Infinity Ordnance which resembles mostly the known system, just more random. The Infinity Ordnance is different in each playlist. This graphic from the latest bulletin shows the system understandable:
image.axd
Click to expand...
Every few minutes the weapons respawn. Unlike previous titles, the weapons respawn at a different location. Power weapons like Rocket Launcher, Sniper will be shown in your HUD. Smaller weapons like Needler etc. not.

And then we have the Personal Ordnance. You are talking about the Personal Ordnance. During action, you fill up the bar and you can pick between 3 randomized choices. Infinity will drop them near to you.

At the end I am liking the system.(If it plays out like I imagine) The random dropping of weapon can prevent the power weapon abusing we see in Reach.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
NobleGundam said:
http://www.halounity.com/index.php
You could say this new site is like the Central Hub of almost all Halo Community Websites.

My buddy admins this site. So please take a quick look see =]
Click to expand...

Someone I used to know made something similar (and a lot nicer looking) where it was a flash version of a halo ring and different sections were different communities. Not sure if this is the same guy, but, http://haloring.org/

image.axd
Click to expand...

This right here. Look at it. Look at those arrows. It looks like goddamn programmed randomness.

Can Frankie or Ellis say that its at LEAST predictable in a way? Like, oh, a drop is coming in, its going to be at this location because last time it was here, and its gonna be a sniper since last time it was a rocket.

Or is it really just a random power weapon in one of a few drop zones....
 
U

u4iX

Member
A27 Tawpgun said:
Someone should ask them if flag juggling is in. I just want a straight answer. Something so small can't possibly be a "We're not ready to talk about that" right?
Click to expand...

I was baffled when Bungie specifically changed the flag mechanics or physics to disallow flag juggling.

I hope you can actually throw the flag a usable distance as well. It just ads a layer of depth that doesn't even need to involve another teammate to toss the flag to.

If you're getting chased and almost killed and you're smart enough and quick enough to be able to toss the flag up onto a ledge or a different walkway, it can save your team and make the enemy team have to redirect their focus to another area of the map that may not be as accessible.

Though this dynamic does change with the inclusion of the Jet Pack AA, it's still better than not having it in altogether.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Under 343's new rules I believe flag juggling is cheating. You're talking about skill, but all skill does is ruin accessibility and scare away novices. When you attempt to flag juggle in Halo 4, it should actually warp you back to the flag spot, but only at random intervals because randomness is more fun and can help out people new to the game. The announcer repeating his words could also be scary to new players, as is the clanking sound of the flag being thrown, so I really see no reason to have it in the game at all. Adapt, trust, believe. 343 hears you, but the game has to change to evolve.
 
U

u4iX

Member
kylej said:
Under 343's new rules I believe flag juggling is cheating. You're talking about skill, but all skill does is ruin accessibility and scare away novices. When you attempt to flag juggle in Halo 4, it should actually warp you back to the flag spot, but only at random intervals because randomness is more fun and can help out people new to the game. The announcer repeating his words could also be scary to new players, as is the clanking sound of the flag being thrown, so I really see no reason to have it in the game at all. Adapt, trust, believe. 343 hears you, but the game has to change to evolve.
Click to expand...

MFW continuing to read this post:

eKVIr.gif
 
L

Louis Wu

Member
Dax01 said:
I put these three gameplay videos from RTX into the OP. I wish, however, we had gameplay videos like the MLG videos from E3 (an example) where it's nothing but the game's sound design filling up the audio space (or a developer clarifying gameplay elements).
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, those vids took a great deal of prep (the MLG guys showed up quite early to the bar that was hosting the after-hours party, and wired a bank of displays for video capture). They didn't do this at RTX, and nobody else stepped in to do it either.

A27 Tawpgun said:
Someone I used to know made something similar (and a lot nicer looking) where it was a flash version of a halo ring and different sections were different communities. Not sure if this is the same guy, but, http://haloring.org/
Click to expand...
Same guy (Firestream). HaloUnity is the evolution of that idea. ;)
 
H

Hypertrooper

Member
A27 Tawpgun said:
This right here. Look at it. Look at those arrows. It looks like goddamn programmed randomness.

Can Frankie or Ellis say that its at LEAST predictable in a way? Like, oh, a drop is coming in, its going to be at this location because last time it was here, and its gonna be a sniper since last time it was a rocket.

Or is it really just a random power weapon in one of a few drop zones....
Click to expand...
If the drop location is set, it is not complete random. You can fight over the location and hope it will be worth. But at the end it forces the player to use the BR/DMR/Carbine or the Assault Rifle because he/she cannot rely anymore that the drop will give him/her resupply for the PW.

On the other hand the memorization skill gets reduced a lot with this system.
 
S

Swarmerr

Member
Rickenslacker said:
I agree with you on this completely. When I played CE, the thing that stood out to me with the two weapon inventory was that every weapon was balanced in its own way. Unlike the FPS games I was used to before it where there was a clear weapon progression where you'd start with a dinky shotgun, and work your way up to finding better and better weapons because you could hold them all. In Halo a pistol was good because it could zoom and tackle any range with its three shots. A sniper could tackle long ranges with its one shot kills. A shotgun could tackle short ranges with its one shot kills. A rocket could handle mid range and vehicles with its ridiculous blast radius, but its capacity was extremely limited. I realize I'm mostly naming power weapons here, but it felt like a decent tradeoff between the AR and pistol that one would be the one you would spray with reckless abandon and the other would be more trusty with precision.

Anyhoo this was just my initial impression of the design for the game and what made it appealing to me in the first place, naturally some of the weapons fell by the wayside-- but I feel like the division between utility and power has become more and more stark as the series progressed. In my time with Reach, it's like you said, power weapon or don't bother.
Click to expand...

One of the many good things that seem good in halo 4 is how power weapons look to be weaker than the previous games. Personally this comes as a relief seeing how reach had the easiest and strongest power weapons to use.
 
V

VivaciousJazzy

Member
It is boggling how much effort they put into stopping players from juggling objectives when resources could have gone somewhere else. They said they removed it but you could still manage to juggle in the beta so they went in and made you slow and un-able to pick anything up for what seems like 3 whole seconds. They mentioned this in multiple weekly updates and also mentioned how they fixed the audio issue with flag juggling which negated the only real problem they explained it had.
 
T

Talents

Banned
kylej said:
Under 343's new rules I believe flag juggling is cheating. You're talking about skill, but all skill does is ruin accessibility and scare away novices. When you attempt to flag juggle in Halo 4, it should actually warp you back to the flag spot, but only at random intervals because randomness is more fun and can help out people new to the game. The announcer repeating his words could also be scary to new players, as is the clanking sound of the flag being thrown, so I really see no reason to have it in the game at all. Adapt, trust, believe. 343 hears you, but the game has to change to evolve.
Click to expand...

ship-it.png
 
U

u4iX

Member
Rickenslacker said:
I agree with you on this completely. When I played CE, the thing that stood out to me with the two weapon inventory was that every weapon was balanced in its own way. Unlike the FPS games I was used to before it where there was a clear weapon progression where you'd start with a dinky shotgun, and work your way up to finding better and better weapons because you could hold them all. In Halo a pistol was good because it could zoom and tackle any range with its three shots. A sniper could tackle long ranges with its one shot kills. A shotgun could tackle short ranges with its one shot kills. A rocket could handle mid range and vehicles with its ridiculous blast radius, but its capacity was extremely limited. I realize I'm mostly naming power weapons here, but it felt like a decent tradeoff between the AR and pistol that one would be the one you would spray with reckless abandon and the other would be more trusty with precision.

Anyhoo this was just my initial impression of the design for the game and what made it appealing to me in the first place, naturally some of the weapons fell by the wayside-- but I feel like the division between utility and power has become more and more stark as the series progressed. In my time with Reach, it's like you said, power weapon or don't bother.
Click to expand...

This brings up one of the most common misconceptions about "balance" in my eyes.

Game balance isn't equality, game balance is beneficial inequality upon player choice.
 
M

Mister Negative

Member
A27 Tawpgun said:
Someone should ask them if flag juggling is in. I just want a straight answer. Something so small can't possibly be a "We're not ready to talk about that" right?
Click to expand...

What Frankie chooses to address and not seems somewhat arbitrary.

We can only hope he addresses this, even though it's likely still being tweaked.
 
T

Tha Robbertster

Member
Hypertrooper said:
If the drop location is set, it is not complete random. You can fight over the location and hope it will be worth. But at the end it forces the player to use the BR/DMR/Carbine or the Assault Rifle because he/she cannot rely anymore that the drop will give him/her resupply for the PW.

On the other hand the memorization skill gets reduced a lot with this system.
Click to expand...

But if I'm correct, the times at which the weapons spawn is also random, so you wouldn't even know when you'd have to control a certain location.
 
K

kylej

Banned
VivaciousJazzy said:
It boggles my mind how much effort they put into stopping players from juggling objectives when resources could have gone somewhere else. They said they removed it but you could still manage to juggle in the beta so they went in and made you slow and un-able to pick anything up for what seems like 3 whole seconds. They mentioned this in multiple weekly updates and also mentioned how they fixed the audio issue with flag juggling which negated the only real problem they explained with it.
Click to expand...

Halo development in general boggles the mind. In Halo 4 we have

  • bloom
  • recoil
  • spread
  • flinching
  • matchmaking UI changed to Web 19.0 look
  • bumper jumper changed
  • sniper scope changed to Wall-E
  • x-ray vision
  • riot shield
  • forge world is grey again
  • maps focused on canon not streamlined structures
  • no dedis
  • no spectator mode
  • no custom server browser
  • no proper ranking system
  • no 60fps
  • no terrain editor
  • instant respawn
  • randomized spawn locations
  • killstreaks
  • perks
  • pre-order bonus gun camo
the list goes on. If you had told me 5 years ago that that's what Halo would be like in 2012, I would've taken a hit off the joint you were smoking.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
I guess it's better than people in normal games getting a free rocket launcher because it just happened to spawn right in front of them.
 
U

u4iX

Member
kylej said:
Halo development in general boggles the mind. In Halo 4 we have

  • bloom
  • recoil
  • spread
  • flinching
  • matchmaking UI changed to Web 19.0 look
  • bumper jumper changed
  • sniper scope changed to Wall-E
  • x-ray vision
  • riot shield
  • forge world is grey again
  • maps focused on canon not streamlined structures
  • no dedis
  • no spectator mode
  • no custom server browser
  • no proper ranking system
  • no 60fps
  • no terrain editor
  • instant respawn
  • randomized spawn locations
  • killstreaks
  • perks
  • pre-order bonus gun camo
the list goes on. If you had told me 5 years ago that that's what Halo would be like in 2012, I would've taken a hit off the joint you were smoking.
Click to expand...

I think one of the strongest arguments against the changes being made to Halo is the argument for evolution.

They say they want to evolve the game, but evolution is governed by natural selection.

A slug doesn't randomly grow a pair of horns just because it might be useful against a predator. It involves a long, slow process of keeping and improving on favorable traits, and removing unfavorable ones.

I think things like the removal of bloom show signs of this and I hope the new loadout system is a logical step forward from Reach's loadouts.
 
S

Swarmerr

Member
VivaciousJazzy said:
It is boggling how much effort they put into stopping players from juggling objectives when resources could have gone somewhere else. They said they removed it but you could still manage to juggle in the beta so they went in and made you slow and un-able to pick anything up for what seems like 3 whole seconds. They mentioned this in multiple weekly updates and also mentioned how they fixed the audio issue with flag juggling which negated the only real problem they explained it had.
Click to expand...

#optimalskillgaptheory

https://forums.halo.xbox.com/yaf_postst95204_Why-halo--must--become-easier-to-play.aspx
 
M

Mister Negative

Member
u4iX said:
I think one of the strongest arguments against the changes being made to Halo is the argument for evolution.

They say they want to evolve the game, but evolution is governed by natural selection.

A slug doesn't randomly grow a pair of horns just because it might be useful against a predator. It involves a long, slow process of keeping and improving on favorable traits, and removing unfavorable ones.

I think things like the removal of bloom show signs of this and I hope the new loadout system is a logical step forward from Reach's loadouts.
Click to expand...

I'm still totally unclear on what the actual involvement of bloom is in 4. I think it's purely visual, but I honestly have no idea. Some impressions make it seem like it isn't.
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
u4iX said:
This brings up one of the most common misconceptions about "balance" in my eyes.

Game balance isn't equality, game balance is beneficial inequality upon player choice.
Click to expand...
Granted, but back in 2001 it was a pretty swanky idea and a refresher among all the iD and Epic shooters I was playing at the time.
 
M

Mister Negative

Member
I never understood the complaints against flag juggling. The only people I ever saw complain about it were people on the B.net forums that felt that anything that was unintended by Bungie was literally the worst thing in the world.

The audio cue was annoying, sure, but nothing worth raging over.

Pok3R Fac3D said:
FLAG TAKEN +10
FLAG TAKEN +10
FLAG TAKEN +10
FLAG TAKEN +10
Click to expand...

Oh crap, that might be a problem.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
Mister Negative said:
I never understood the complaints against flag juggling. The only people I ever saw complain about it were people on the B.net forums that felt that anything that was unintended by Bungie was literally the worst thing in the world.

The audio cue was annoying, sure, but nothing worth raging over.
Click to expand...
Only complaint I've heard is that Fyrwulff's teammates can't do it so it shouldn't be in there.
 
U

u4iX

Member
Mister Negative said:
I'm still totally unclear on what the actual involvement of bloom is in 4. I think it's purely visual, but I honestly have no idea. Some impressions make it seem like it isn't.
Click to expand...

It seems to be most involved with automatic weapons.

However, I do think there is SOME influence on the DMR where if you pull the trigger at the highest RoF, you will experience bloom that only extends to the outer, more pronounced reticule. You can also have pinpoint accuracy with the inner, more faint circle if you let it reset before each shot.

It'll be easy to test once the game actually comes out for sure.
 
T

Tha Robbertster

Member
Mister Negative said:
I'm still totally unclear on what the actual involvement of bloom is in 4. I think it's purely visual, but I honestly have no idea. Some impressions make it seem like it isn't.
Click to expand...

I thought the only precision weapon that has bloom that's similar to Reach's is the pistol. All other precision weapons that seem to have "bloom" just use it as an indicator to show when you can shoot again, much like the Reach sniper does now.
 
H

heckfu

Banned
Pok3R Fac3D said:
FLAG TAKEN +10
FLAG TAKEN +10
FLAG TAKEN +10
FLAG TAKEN +10
Click to expand...

Hahaha, this was the first post I saw when I woke up. I decided there is no need for me to find out context since I got a good laugh.

I never really realized how helpful flag juggling was until someone showed me the ropes in the MLG playlist and wow, it's super annoying not being able to do it in non-MLG playlists now. The reason for them taking it out doesn't make too much sense, either.

And I know this has no bearing on gameplay, but I'm interested in things like flag and bomb design. I thought Halo 3 had really excellent flag design and in Reach it was...not as good. And I hope for Tashi's sake that the flagpole acts as geometry that can block bullets and grenades...gotta have that realism that he loves!
 
V

VivaciousJazzy

Member
JonCha said:
So is Team JonCha playing Team kylej? The spreadsheet is a little confusing.
Click to expand...

Yeah we should probably schedule that. :/

Btw, I capped the first game already and plan on capturing the second and uploading both soon so we have HD vids.


heckfu said:
And I hope for Tashi's sake that the flagpole acts as geometry that can block bullets and grenades...gotta have that realism that he loves!
Click to expand...
I hit the Tashi ceiling yesterday because of a flag pole.
 
M

Mister Negative

Member
u4iX said:
It seems to be most involved with automatic weapons.

However, I do think there is SOME influence on the DMR where if you pull the trigger at the highest RoF, you will experience bloom that only extends to the outer, more pronounced reticule. You can also have pinpoint accuracy with the inner, more faint circle if you let it reset before each shot.

It'll be easy to test once the game actually comes out for sure.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I assumed it was still in on the automatic weapons, but there's been so many mixed messages about the DMR. Guess we'll see. It doesn't seem as bad as Reach, so that's a plus.
 
D

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
kylej said:
Halo development in general boggles the mind. In Halo 4 we have

  • bloom
  • recoil
  • spread
  • flinching
  • matchmaking UI changed to Web 19.0 look
  • bumper jumper changed
  • sniper scope changed to Wall-E
  • x-ray vision
  • riot shield
  • forge world is grey again
  • maps focused on canon not streamlined structures
  • no dedis
  • no spectator mode
  • no custom server browser
  • no proper ranking system
  • no 60fps
  • no terrain editor
  • instant respawn
  • randomized spawn locations
  • killstreaks
  • perks
  • pre-order bonus gun camo
the list goes on. If you had told me 5 years ago that that's what Halo would be like in 2012, I would've taken a hit off the joint you were smoking.
Click to expand...



Even though half of this list is yet to be finalized, or hasn't been shown off completely. (That is part of the problem too though).
 
P

Poker Face

Member
heres a thought:

what if carrying the flag is no longer default? it just goes on your back like in cod, which removes flag juggling..

:(
 
R

Rickenslacker

Banned
Pok3R Fac3D said:
heres a thought:

what if carrying the flag is no longer default? it just goes on your back like in cod, which removes flag juggling..

:(
Click to expand...
Considering they've only limited your abilities with the flag as the series progressed I doubt that would be the case.

Bring back normal movement speed flag carrying and flag carrier driving!
 
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