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[MRORANGE]

Valve faces legal challenge over Steam EULA

German consumer rights group says agreement 'coerces' players into signing
The Federation of German Consumer Organisation has given Valve until October 10 to give a reasonable response to its desist order or face legal action.

The umbrella group of consumer rights agencies says the Steam EULA agreement, which requires consumers to waive thier right to class action lawsuits against Valve, is coercive.

Failure to consent to the new terms left several Steam users without access to their library of games.

The Verbraucherzentrale Bundesverband e.V., or VZBV, also seeks to bring Valve into compliance with the European Union's recent ruling on the resale of digital goods: a feature available only on Steam.

"Valve has a new deadline (10.10.2012) to respond to our letter now. Maybe after this time we will resolve the dispute in the court," the VZBV's Carola Elbrecht, chief officer and coordinator of advocacy for digital consumerism

Valve given more time to respond.

Valve has up until October 10th to come up with a reasonable response for the Verbraucherzentrale Bundesverband e.V., or Federation of German Consumer Organization's desist order before the organization pursues a resolution for the matter in the court of law. According to a representative from the vzbv, if Valve doesn't respond by the extended deadline, it was stated that they will seek to “resolve the dispute in court.”

The German Consumer Organizations is an umbrella group composed of various consumer rights advocates. The group sets out to resolve matters usually deemed unfair to consumers. Their latest target is Valve, the number one good guy company in the video game industry, although, depending on how this turns out they could be number two behind Good Old Games (a.k.a. CD Projekt).

The vzbv is after Valve for what they label as an unfair end-user license agreement that was recently modified back in August – an agreement that was labeled as a coercion for users. Furthermore, the vzbv wanted to enforce that Valve uphold the new EU court ruling regarding the resale of digital goods, a service and feature that isn't available from any online digital distribution platform.

 

[BrokenEchelon]

Good. Regardless of how benign or malevolent that update may have been, they're in need of a memento mori.

 

[Haunted]

Germany, last bastion of consumer rights.

 

[Chinner]

fair do to germany really. hopefully something positive comes out of this

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

You know what? Good.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

As long as I can still play Borderlands 2 online, I'm fine.

 

[Metalmurphy]

Germany, last bastion of consumer rights.

I'd say the EU as a whole is a great place to be as far as consumer rights go.

 

[glaurung]

Germany, last bastion of consumer rights.

They also replaced TF2 gore with springs and hamburgers.

That's more like a double-edged sword thing.

 

[Glass Rebel]

I approve, neighbours. Force them to let me resell my shit

Spoiler

Brink

 

[Haunted]

I'd say the EU as a whole is a great place to be as far as consumer rights go.

True. We just raise the biggest stink about this shit.

They also replaced TF2 gore with springs and hamburgers.

That's more like a double-edged sword thing.

Last bastion of consumer rights and censorship*.



Wish we could get rid of the latter.


*also Australia

 

[Orayn]

The EULA thing is tricky, but I guess some good may come of it.

Trying to force Valve to allow resale is bogus, though.

 

[Trigger]

So if the Germans prove successful does that benefit me as an American? Wouldn't there have to be a separate law suit?

 

[Xater]

I knew this was not going to fly over here. Good going by the Verbraucherzentrale.

They also replaced TF2 gore with springs and hamburgers.

That's more like a double-edged sword thing.

Not anymore. That also was kind of great for TF2.

 

[Arksy]

So if the Germans prove successful does that benefit me as an American? Wouldn't there have to be a separate law suit?

No. They are applying German law which applies only in Germany. The only way you could benefit is if Steam changed their whole platform to include reselling games, and then exported those features to users outside of Germany.

 

[Khezu]

They also replaced TF2 gore with springs and hamburgers.

That's more like a double-edged sword thing.

Actually that sounds like it makes TF2 WAY better.

 

[2MF]

Trying to force Valve to allow resale is bogus, though.

Enforcing the same consumer rights that are enforced by the supreme court on other companies is now bogus?

Well done Germany. There's absolutely no excuse for Valve's practice of holding purchased games hostage to acceptance of new TOS.

Next someone should take care of Valve having their cake and eating it too regarding the TOS usage of "subscriptions" when they sell the games as purchases on the client.

So if the Germans prove successful does that benefit me as an American? Wouldn't there have to be a separate law suit?

It is possible that if Valve is forced to allow resale of games they might do it for the whole world. The sky would not fall unlike what some people expect, in fact Valve could actually benefit as game prices could go up at launch.

 

[Vagabundo]

Good. Digital product consumer rights really needs to be sorted out. There needs to be a good set of rules that everyone plays by.

 

[ekim]

I don't think they will implement a feature to resale games just for us germans.(They also would have to negotiate with pissed publishers) They would rather close down the steam store here.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

I want as much ownership of my digital goods as I can get rather than this subscriber nonsense.

Deutschland uber alles.

 

[reptilescorpio]

Great to see the EULA change situation looked at. They really did go about it the wrong way.
Doubt the resale thing will get much traction though.

 

[Visualante2]

Euroton

 

[Arksy]

Enforcing the same consumer rights that are enforced by the supreme court on other companies is now bogus?

Well done Germany. There's absolutely no excuse for Valve's practice of holding purchased games hostage to acceptance of new TOS.

Next someone should take care of Valve having their cake and eating it too regarding the TOS usage of "subscriptions" when they sell the games as purchases on the client.

It's a pretty well established rule of law in the UK and Australia and most likely the US (would have to look it up, but can say with some confidence it is) that if you sell someone X but call it Y to save your ass, you're actually selling X not Y.

Example: Back in early C20 the UK government came up with a Rents Act which limited the amount of rent people could charge for a residence. So landlords stopped renting places out but started offerning 'license agreements' which gave all the same rights as a lease but was called something else. When this was taken before a Court they basically asked if these people were being serious. If it looks like X annd has the rights of X it's X.

I don't think they will implement a feature to resale games just for us germans.(They also would have to negotiate with pissed publishers) They would rather close down the steam store here.

Germany is their biggest market in Europe and their second biggest market in the world. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Zarx]

Are they going after everyone else as well? I mean I know of like half a dozen organisations that have added similar clauses.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

It's a pretty well established rule of law in the UK and Australia and most likely the US (would have to look it up, but can say with some confidence it is) that if you sell someone X but call it Y to save your ass, you're actually selling X not Y.

It's generally the same rule in the US as well, but cunning rhetoric can always save your ass in court because we're basically a pack of idiots as far as the law goes.

 

[Arksy]

Are they going after everyone else as well? I mean I know of like half a dozen organisations that have added similar clauses.

Doubtful. This case is going to rely upon the coercive nature of unilaterally changing the ToS and restricting service if you didn't agree.

 

[Kintaro]

I hope Valve gets their asses kicked in this case.

 

[Orayn]

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of reselling digital goods. The implications of that particular ruling are just so ridiculously wide-reaching that I'm having a really hard time seeing them enforced on everyone that could be affected. It's also silly to single out Valve, when the same ruling dictates that Microsoft must allow people to resell DLC that's already been purchased and redeemed.

 

[Gintamen]

Deutschland uber alles.

You bad bad boy, that's the wrong anthem.

They would rather close down the steam store here.

Not really.

 

[Trigger]

No. They are applying German law which applies only in Germany. The only way you could benefit is if Steam changed their whole platform to include reselling games, and then exported those features to users outside of Germany.

It is possible that if Valve is forced to allow resale of games they might do it for the whole world. The sky would not fall unlike what some people expect, in fact Valve could actually benefit as game prices could go up at launch.

Thanks for the quick responses!

 

[subversus]

People will exploit it to hell and back like they usually do.

 

[JaseC]

As far as disagreeing with the SSA resulting in loss of account access is concerned, all Valve needs to do is automate the account restriction system that currently exists for account misuse --- declining an updated SSA should impose restrictions upon acquiring new content (no purchasing, CD key activating, or gifting/trading) but still allow complete access to a user's existing library, and if said user decides to change his/her mind later on, agreeing to the updated SSA should restore full account functionality.

I've said it before, but it's ironic -- and, frankly, ridiculous -- that those who disobey the SSA after having agreed to it are afforded greater access to their accounts than those who'd prefer to decline an updated agreement.

Isn't this news about a week old ? I thought about posting it, but not much has changed other than a deadline, at which point they (might) sue Valve (again).

Yeah, the only new news is that the deadline has been extended.

 

[2MF]

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of reselling digital goods. The implications of that particular ruling are just so ridiculously wide-reaching that I'm having a really hard time seeing them enforced on everyone that could be affected. It's also silly to single out Valve, when the same ruling dictates that Microsoft must allow people to resell DLC that's already been purchased and redeemed.

If Valve is forced to allow resale other companies would likely be on a countdown to getting sued if they didn't take steps to allow resale as well.

 

[bomma_man]

Last bastion of consumer rights and censorship*.



Wish we could get rid of the latter.


*also Australia

We don't do that anymore

(well, after 1/1/13)

 

[Arksy]

If Valve is forced to allow resale other companies would likely be on a countdown to getting sued if they didn't take steps to allow resale as well.

Exactly. It would set a very good precedent. (Of course being Civil Law it would be de facto rather then a de jure precedent).

 

[ekim]

No publisher who has his games on steam would allow that to do and would subsequently pull their games from steam if this is gonna happen.

 

[2MF]

No publisher who has his games on steam would allow that to do and would subsequently pull their games from steam if this is gonna happen.

And where would they put them? The laws would apply to other DD services as well.

 

[Pandaman]

No publisher who has his games on steam would allow that to do and would subsequently pull their games from steam if this is gonna happen.

You are just full of gems today.

 

[hiryu64]

I want as much ownership of my digital goods as I can get rather than this subscriber nonsense.

Deutschland uber alles.

See, what you see as a "good" Valve sees as a "service".

Spoiler

I agree with you.

 

[Orayn]

The news stories I read about the resale ruling were kind of lacking in detail. Are we talking about the wide implementation of publisher-sanctioned recycling of keys like GMG, or would Valve be forced to enable a complete free-for-all that allows people on Steam and other services to resell anything, at any time, for any price?

 

[Arksy]

And where would they put them? The laws would apply to other DD services as well.

They wouldn't have a choice, the sales have been made already.

 

[Visualante2]

As far as disagreeing with the SSA resulting in loss of account access is concerned, all Valve needs to do is automate the account restriction system that currently exists for account misuse --- declining an updated SSA should impose restrictions upon acquiring new content (no purchasing, CD key activating, or gifting/trading) but still allow complete access to a user's existing library, and if said user decides to change his/her mind later on, agreeing to the updated SSA should restore full account functionality.

I've said it before, but it's ironic -- and, frankly, ridiculous -- that those who disobey the SSA after having agreed to it are afforded greater access to their accounts than those who'd prefer to decline an updated agreement.



Yeah, the only new news is that the deadline has been extended.

The problem is, and Facebook argues this also is that their databases are not designed with this in mind. The way data is packed on Facebook's servers.. to just suddenly start wiping chunks of data off it would be a nightmare. We still haven't really gotten to the bottom of this whole EU vs. Facebook drama RE: Deleted content, hidden files but the cost involved with having a running group of users who are using your services with a roster of different rights would be quite complex.

 

[Htown]

I'm glad somebody is fighting this ridiculous EULA nonsense.

Sucks that it had to be Valve, of all companies, but they brought it on themselves.

 

[phosphor112]

Enforcing the same consumer rights that are enforced by the supreme court on other companies is now bogus?

Well done Germany. There's absolutely no excuse for Valve's practice of holding purchased games hostage to acceptance of new TOS.

Next someone should take care of Valve having their cake and eating it too regarding the TOS usage of "subscriptions" when they sell the games as purchases on the client.

Do you WANT game prices to go up? Digital sales have zero involved in publishing, manufacturing and isn't tangible at all. If we were to be able to resale every digital sale that we got, it would cause retail games to shoot up in price dramatically along with digital prices. No more Steam sales for you.

EDIT: And how would reselling Digital content even work!? You'd need a form of DRM to make sure you no longer have rights to the game and the product is then transferred. There has to also be a way to prevent users from selling things to each other for a penny just to share them with friends. It'll ruin the whole ecosystem.

 

[Pureauthor]

Good on the German courts. Lets see how Valve decides to play this.

 

[IrishNinja]

I'm glad somebody is fighting this ridiculous EULA nonsense.

Sucks that it had to be Valve, of all companies, but they brought it on themselves.

going forward, i think its all the more important that it's them. if EA and every other halfwit company is going to start up DD storefronts taking most of their cues, getting these things sorted directly with them strikes me as being for the better.

honestly, we tie up this & the losing your account due to chargeback/etc issues and id feel infinitely more comfortable about our digital future. i imagine there's bigger growing pains down the line, but these are the larger ones with our current format, in my mind.

 

[JaseC]

The problem is, and Facebook argues this also is that their databases are not designed with this in mind. The way data is packed on Facebook's servers.. to just suddenly start wiping chunks of data off it would be a nightmare. We still haven't really gotten to the bottom of this whole EU vs. Facebook drama RE: Deleted content, hidden files but the cost involved with having a running group of users who are using your services with a roster of different rights would be quite complex.

But in the case of Steam, the underlying functionality already exists -- Support can quickly and easily impose/remove particular account restrictions (the system replaced the need to outright ban/disable accounts).

 

[Arksy]

Do you WANT game prices to go up? Digital sales have zero involved in publishing, manufacturing and isn't tangible at all. If we were to be able to resale every digital sale that we got, it would cause retail games to shoot up in price dramatically along with digital prices. No more Steam sales for you.

EDIT: And how would reselling Digital content even work!? You'd need a form of DRM to make sure you no longer have rights to the game and the product is then transferred. There has to also be a way to prevent users from selling things to each other for a penny just to share them with friends. It'll ruin the whole ecosystem.

The prices won't go up, people will just flow back to Retail where they can just sell their boxed copies on. The second issue about DRM is one for Valve to argue in Court but I'm not sure they will be successful. The fact that it might ruin the ecosystem is largely irrelevant to the issue of whether it's legal or not. If you think the consequences of the application of law are worrying then contact your MP.

 

[2MF]

Do you WANT game prices to go up? Digital sales have zero involved in publishing, manufacturing and isn't tangible at all. If we were to be able to resale every digital sale that we got, it would cause retail games to shoot up in price dramatically along with digital prices. No more Steam sales for you.

EDIT: And how would reselling Digital content even work!? You'd need a form of DRM to make sure you no longer have rights to the game and the product is then transferred. There has to also be a way to prevent users from selling things to each other for a penny just to share them with friends. It'll ruin the whole ecosystem.

I don't mind prices going up if I can resell games when I'm done with them.


DRM would not be strictly necessary. See GOG...

 

[jediyoshi]

The prices won't go up, people will just flow back to Retail where they can just sell their boxed copies on.

Mmm, all those useless boxed copies of Steamworks games just floating in the ether.

 

[Orayn]

The prices won't go up, people will just flow back to Retail where they can just sell their boxed copies on. The second issue about DRM is one for Valve to argue in Court but I'm not sure they will be successful. The fact that it might ruin the ecosystem is largely irrelevant to the issue of whether it's legal or not. If you think the consequences of the application of law are worrying then contact your MP.

But retail copies of most PC games don't work like that... Wouldn't this also force the abolition of all DRM?