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[Kinitari]

1. I am invisible because I don't want to announce my status to the world. If they want to find out, they'll just have to call me. Just like in a PHONE. I still want everyone to be able to try reaching me, by voice or video chat, WITHOUT ANNOUNCING if I am actually available. Gtalk can't do that.

I don't get it. If you want to use a social service, like hangouts, why don't you want people to know you are available to use the service? This makes no sense to me.

2. All the droid fans here suggest are workarounds that involve setting stuff up. I do not want to worry about setting stuff up. Sorry to use a cliche but Facetime just works the way I expect a video calling app should work. Piggybacking video conferencing on an IM service is something I will never stand for.

Those workarounds are being suggested because you have one of the most niche desires ever. You want to use the service, but you don't want people to know that you are ONLINE to use the service - and while it's possible for that to happen, you also are under the assumption that those same people will not know how to hover and figure it out. You're creating a scenario where you don't -want- to make it work.

Not when the expectations of the calling party are different for both, brought on by years of conditioning. When you don't respond to an IM, other party knows you're online and just not responding, because that's how they've been using it for the past 15 years.

So with iMessage telling you if someone saw your message on default.... its a bad service?

edit: Aha! It's not on by default. You win this round, iMessage.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Not when the expectations of the calling party are different for both, brought on by years of conditioning. When you don't respond to an IM, other party knows you're online and just not responding.

This is tortured logic to say the least.

Who expects people to respond to IMs immediately every time? No one except your mother.

Who expects people to respond to calls immediately every time? Everyone except your mother.

 

[Divvy]

1. I am invisible because I don't want to announce my status to the world. If they want to find out, they'll just have to call me. Just like in a PHONE. I still want everyone to be able to try reaching me, by voice or video chat, WITHOUT ANNOUNCING if I am actually available. Gtalk can't do that.

2. All the droid fans here suggest are workarounds that involve setting stuff up. I do not want to worry about setting stuff up. Sorry to use a cliche but Facetime just works the way I expect a video calling app should work. Piggybacking video conferencing on an IM service is something I will never stand for.

Then set your status to busy. You have painted this elaborate, contradictory and incredible niche use case and extrapolated that to argue why one service is objectively better than the other despite the various other qualities each service has. There is a reason I called you Captain Anecdotal Evidence, and you have demonstrated that beyond my wildest imagination.

 

[TTOOLL]

I've just changed to Lumia and I'm amazed by the OS. I'll never look back (android). It is a very cheap 710 I got until I get the 920 next year.

 

[Angst]

I think we need more examples to understand this properly. Also more background story would be helpful.

 

[mescalineeyes]

So with iMessage telling you if someone saw your message on default.... its a bad service?

By default I message only tells you whether your message has been received successfully. Read receipts have to be turned on manually.

 

[SmokyDave]

My take on the Facetime / Skype thing is that I needed them both installed. Facetime because it is higher quality in my experience and Skype because it was willing to connect over pretty much any connection whereas Facetime was much fussier in the beginning (it might be better now, I don't know).

Just my 2p's worth. They both have their advantages.

 

[coldfoot]

Then set your status to busy.

More micromanaging that I just don't have to deal with iOS. When you set your status to busy, people see that not only you're online, but you actually bothered to change your status. If you're busy all the time, still doesn't change the fact that other people have the information that you are online.

So please stop worrying about me. I will never use Android and all the people I care about have iPhones or iPads, so I am happy. Just like the many millions who are happy in the iOS ecosystem.

I've just changed to Lumia and I'm amazed by the OS. I'll never look back (android). It is a very cheap 710 I got until I get the 920 next year.

That's the kind of stuff I'd like to see! Good for you.

 

[this_guy]

1. I am invisible because I don't want to announce my status to the world. If they want to find out, they'll just have to call me. Just like in a PHONE. I still want everyone to be able to try reaching me, by voice or video chat, WITHOUT ANNOUNCING if I am actually available. Gtalk can't do that.

But if you're mom knows you have Facetime, aren't you basically available all the time as well?

 

[Divvy]

More micromanaging that I just don't have to deal with iOS. When you set your status to busy, people see that not only you're online, but you actually bothered to change your status. If you're busy all the time, still doesn't change the fact that other people have the information that you are online.

So please stop worrying about me. I will never use Android and all the people I care about have iPhones or iPads, so I am happy. Just like the many millions who are happy in the iOS ecosystem.

No one's worried about you, you're the one who came in here with your ridiculous anecdotes.

If you're busy all the time so people can still try to message you but it's understandable if you don't respond.

 

[Angst]

But if you're mom knows you have Facetime, aren't you basically available all the time as well?

Tooootally different scenario.

 

[coldfoot]

But if you're mom knows you have Facetime, aren't you basically available all the time as well?

Not any different than how you're basically available all the time for a phone call if you have a phone. Your phone might be on or off and she won't know until she calls. You're online on gtalk, she KNOWS at least your phone is on and connected to a network without any attempt to make a call.

 

[Kinitari]

More micromanaging that I just don't have to deal with iOS. When you set your status to busy, people see that not only you're online, but you actually bothered to change your status. If you're busy all the time, still doesn't change the fact that other people have the information that you are online.

So please stop worrying about me. I will never use Android and all the people I care about have iPhones or iPads, so I am happy. Just like the many millions who are happy in the iOS ecosystem.

...

This isn't about trying to get you to use Android - this is about comparing services. Your argument was just... the worst argument I've read in this thread for anything. It was so bad I feel like Google Hangouts is misrepresented as being good just because you argued against it so poorly. Google Hangouts is great but it has many flaws:

1. Still a young service, so not as unified across platforms as it could be - and only recently has gotten dramatically better in that facet.

2. Service hiccups are still not uncommon - while again, they've gotten better, they're still not perfect.

3. The video quality can and should definitely be improved.

 

[Kinitari]

Not any different than how you're basically available all the time for a phone call if you have a phone. Your phone might be on or off and she won't know until she calls. You're online on gtalk, she KNOWS at least your phone is on and connected to a network without any attempt to make a call.

So... if she calls, rings, and goes to the machine - it means your phone is on, charged and in network. But you didn't answer.

That's better?

 

[buhdeh]

Can't believe you guys are still arguing with someone who has convinced himself to believe that a Windows 7 PC with an SSD is slower than a Mac with a mechanical drive.

 

[coldfoot]

So... if she calls, rings, and goes to the machine - it means your phone is on, charged and in network. But you didn't answer.

That's better?

Yes, because now you know that she called. You can call back and ask what's up. Not to mention, sometimes phone networks mess up and appear to ring a few times before going to voicemail even when you're not in the network and it should have gone straight to voicemail. Happened to me quite a few times on the NYC subway.

 

[this_guy]

Not any different than how you're basically available all the time for a phone call if you have a phone. Your phone might be on or off and she won't know until she calls. You're online on gtalk, she KNOWS at least your phone is on and connected to a network without any attempt to make a call.

So the difference comes down to - she knows the device isn't turned off? If someone is connected to gtalk, the phone is on but doesn't necessarily mean you're available. I think people *do* have the ability to learn that being connected doesn't necessarily mean you're available. Or am I giving people too much credit?

 

[Kinitari]

Can't believe you guys are still arguing with someone who has convinced himself to believe that a Windows 7 PC with an SSD is slower than a Mac with a mechanical drive.

He apparently hates Google even more than Windows - someone moving from Android to winmo is "the kind of stuff he likes to see" followed by a "good for you".

I really don't know anyone in real life who cares -that- much about people not using Android.

Yes, because now you know that she called.

Isn't this about HER knowing that you are available and aren't answering? And why wouldn't you know she 'called' if she tried to reach you via IM or hangout?!

So the difference comes down to - she knows the device isn't turned off? If someone is connected to gtalk, the phone is on but doesn't necessarily mean you're available. I think people *do* have the ability to learn that being connected doesn't necessarily mean you're available. Or am I giving people too much credit?

It's actually him giving his mom NO credit. Here's the convo

regular mom: Why didn't you respond to me right away!?
Regular son: Sorry mom, I was busy - couldn't respond right away
regular mom: Oh... okay

 

[buhdeh]

I'm not going through all his posts but from the tidbits I've read, Gtalk on Android automatically puts you on away when the phone screen is off (by default).

I don't know if that's what he wants but if he wants to hide from his mom, there you go.

 

[Totakeke]

Jesus christ, guess we've found our new "grandma" argument. Please just step back, take a deep breath, and realize that this line of argument is pointless no matter who wins.

 

[coldfoot]

Isn't this about HER knowing that you are available and aren't answering? And why wouldn't you know she 'called' if she tried to reach you via IM or hangout?!

Gtalk: people can see exactly when you are available or not without your knowledge.
Facetime/Phone: people will have to call you to see if you're available, at which point you know that they are inquiring about your availability. The fact that people understand that when they call somebody, they are making their presence known, will deter them from calling incessantly. With IM, no need to call, your status is out there for everyone to see.

 

[Milchjon]

The Lumia is actually the only one that comes in all colors of my country's flag. And that should be the true killer argument for any smartphone war!

Actually it kinda also works with the US, UK, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Australia, France, whatever. True patriots buy Lumias!!!

 

[Totakeke]

The Lumia is actually the only one that comes in all colors of my country's flag. And that should be the true killer argument for any smartphone war!

.

Actually it kinda also works with the US, UK, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Australia, France, whatever. True patriots buy Lumias!!!

But no flags are glossy.

 

[coldfoot]

The Lumia is actually the only one that comes in all colors of my country's flag. And that should be the true killer argument for any smartphone war!

Actually it kinda also works with the US, UK, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Australia, France, whatever. True patriots buy Lumias!!!

As long as you don't make your start screen as horrible as those pictures Too many icons of the same color to tell apart which is which at a quick glance.

 

[Kinitari]

Gtalk: people can see exactly when you are available or not without your knowledge.
Facetime/Phone: people will have to call you to see if you're available, at which point you know that they are inquiring about your availability. The fact that people understand that when they call somebody, they are making their presence known, will deter them from calling incessantly. With IM, no need to call, your status is out there for everyone to see.

'without your knowledge'? People will immediately know what your availability is, which is entirely in your power. In your same line of reasoning (which I still think is idiotic, but maybe I can reach you using it) - someone who sees you as busy on gtalk will be like 'oh, I guess he's busy' - and then not pester you with messages or calls. Someone who has no idea will be like "lets see if he's busy!" and then call you! Someone insistent like a crazy girlfriend or a clingy mother will call multiple times - in fact I'd argue having your status to busy will let them know that you are just unavailable to everyone, and not just avoiding them.

Your anecdotal ridiculousness is flawed in and of itself. If your going to craft some magical scenarios, give them more thought first.

 

[Totakeke]

As long as you don't make your start screen as horrible as those pictures Too many icons of the same color to tell apart which is which at a quick glance.

For love of god, please don't argue with him.

 

[buhdeh]

He says he doesn't want to manage his status but Gtalk does it automatically on Android, ffs.

 

[Milchjon]

But no flags are glossy.

https://www.google.de/search?q=glos...g&biw=1366&bih=712&sei=mKNtUOnlF4XGswaRooCgCw

Checkmate, my friend!

As long as you don't make your start screen as horrible as those pictures Too many icons of the same color to tell apart which is which at a quick glance.

At the risk of starting another useless argument:

I think they're using too many different colors there. My own homescreen before scrolling is just blue + the photographs WP includes in their live tiles. And trust me, it's never been a problem.

Edit: Sorry, Totakeke :-/

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Yes, because now you know that she called. You can call back and ask what's up. Not to mention, sometimes phone networks mess up and appear to ring a few times before going to voicemail even when you're not in the network and it should have gone straight to voicemail. Happened to me quite a few times on the NYC subway.

Wait, but you know your mum messaged you if she does and you ignore it.

And phone calls are better because sometimes they go wrong?

 

[buhdeh]

For love of god, please don't argue with him.

"My mom wouldn't understand those icons. She would want equally sized icons because random sizes would make it too confusing to hit the call button."

 

[Kinitari]

Wait, but you know your mum messaged you if she does and you ignore it.

And phone calls are better because sometimes they go wrong?

It's less frustrating that his points are bad, what drives me crazy is that his points are inconsistent and whispy - like disturbing the air around them at all makes them float and evaporate.

 

[coldfoot]

'without your knowledge'? People will immediately know what your availability is, which is entirely in your power. In your same line of reasoning (which I still think is idiotic, but maybe I can reach you using it) - someone who sees you as busy on gtalk will be like 'oh, I guess he's busy' - and then not pester you with messages or calls. Someone who has no idea will be like "lets see if he's busy!" and then call you!

Then you ignore their call, and they have no idea if you're really ignoring them or just not available.

Someone insistent like a crazy girlfriend or a clingy mother will call multiple times - in fact I'd argue having your status to busy will let them know that you are just unavailable to everyone, and not just avoiding them.

A busy status will not deter anyone who would take the big step to call you anyway.

 

[coldfoot]

I think they're using too many different colors there. My own homescreen before scrolling is just blue + the photographs WP includes in their live tiles. And trust me, it's never been a problem.

Photos are good, they are more of a differentiating factor than white on blue tiles.

 

[Divvy]

Let me just reverse this post,

A busy status will not deter anyone who would take the big step to call you anyway.

Then you ignore their call, and they have no idea if you're really ignoring them or just not available.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

It's less frustrating that his points are bad, what drives me crazy is that his points are inconsistent and whispy - like disturbing the air around them at all makes them float and evaporate.

Yeah, the thing is I think there is a kernel of a point in there. I actually do think there's issues with availability in messaging apps. But Google talk doesn't have them, yet.

For example in Facebook if I'm online in chat, and someone sends me a message, they get a notification when I've read it. That's a total invasion of my privacy, as I like to reserve the right to ignore things without the other user knowing I'm doing so.

I believe that iMessage and Blackberry messenger are the same, and for that reason I will not use any of these services.

A phone call is more disruptive and difficult to ignore than an instant message in any case.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

....also, I have never tried starting a video chat with someone without asking them whether they want to talk over the webcam first or planning it in advance. Seems like basic etiquette to me.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Not when the expectations of the calling party are different for both, brought on by years of conditioning. When you don't respond to an IM, other party knows you're online and just not responding, because that's how they've been using it for the past 15 years.

If you've been using IM for 15 years then you probably know how to appear offline or busy.

 

[Angst]

I'm online on gtalk pretty much 24/7. My friends have noticed and through their Sherlock Holmes like deducting powers have figured out that I'm not constantly hanging over my keyboard at my desktop pc. Which very much makes it work the same way as phone calls in that regard.

 

[ektoll]

The Lumia is actually the only one that comes in all colors of my country's flag. And that should be the true killer argument for any smartphone war!

[IM]http://i.imgur.com/VKoPl.png[/IMG]

Actually it kinda also works with the US, UK, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Australia, France, whatever. True patriots buy Lumias!!!

You're raising an interesting point, the colors. Why won't Apple do with the iPhone or iPad what they did with the iPod, sell them in different colors? I loved my iPod nano [red] and if I take a Lumia, it will be in yellow! Black, white, grey...it's a little sad.

 

[Zeppu]

I'm online on gtalk pretty much 24/7. My friends have noticed and through their Sherlock Holmes like deducting powers have figured out that I'm not constantly hanging over my keyboard at my desktop pc. Which very much makes it work the same way as phone calls in that regard.

Holy shit, I thought only my friends were Sherlocks.

In all honesty, you know what kind of pisses me off. On the phone it does the auto-away when screen is turned off. Someone messages me while I'm away. I unlock the phone and have a quick look at the notification bar to see if it's important, and relock if it isn't. The status goes online for those few seconds even if I don't even go past the lock screen. It's kind of silly since you're basically showing the recipient that you've read their message and chose to not respond.

Luckily my Sherlocks aren't offended by this since they'll just figure I'm doing something else.

 

[buhdeh]

....also, I have never tried starting a video chat with someone without asking them whether they want to talk over the webcam first or planning it in advance. Seems like basic etiquette to me.

No kidding. Even when I still had my iPhone, no one randomly FaceTime called me out of the blue. For one, you'd never even know if they were connected to WIFI (which was a requirement). Even now, I wouldn't want to answer a FaceTime call out of the blue anyways cause I don't have unlimited data nor would I randomly request a webcam chat without making sure they were free or were connected to WiFi.

 

[tfur]

I can't help but feel this is some sort of compensation gymnastics related to Apple's latest egg they laid.

You know, the 1136x640 egg, with: #mapgate, #scuffgate, #wifigate, removal of Youtube, and the general downgrade that came with iOS6. But hey, its all good, Apple has great margins and makes tons of money.

Honestly, its a fine and good phone, but it really is just another phone now. There used to be a time when Apple was THE leader in the smartphone realm. Those days are gone.

Also, comparing messaging to irc is embarrassingly ignorant.

It's like Coldfoot is stuck in some sort of denial stage. Keep believing the nonsense, but the rest of the world is leaving you behind.

 

[kinggroin]

....



You guys do know that Hangouts on the phone work exactly like phonecalls right? When I go to dialer, its an option, like texting, IMing, or calling.

An honest to god advantage of face time is its in EVERY iPhone. G+ isn't unless its a Nexus device.

 

[nib95]

I can't help but feel this is some sort of compensation gymnastics related to Apple's latest egg they laid.

You know, the 1136x640 egg, with: #mapgate, #scuffgate, #wifigate, removal of Youtube, and the general downgrade that came with iOS6. But hey, its all good, Apple has great margins and makes tons of money.

Honestly, its a fine and good phone, but it really is just another phone now. There used to be a time when Apple was THE leader in the smartphone realm. Those days are gone.

Also, comparing messaging to irc is embarrassingly ignorant.

It's like Coldfoot is stuck in some sort of denial stage. Keep believing the nonsense, but the rest of the world is leaving you behind.

#wifigate and the removal of Youtube? Could you elaborate? Pretty sure the Youtube app is closer to the Android version on iPhone 5 now...I mean....I used it on the device. Just a few days ago lol.

 

[Emily Chu]

Android - 360
iOS - PS3
WP - Wii

thread/

 

[kinggroin]

Android - 360
iOS - PS3
WP - Wii

thread/

......naaaaah

 

[tfur]

#wifigate and the removal of Youtube? Could you elaborate? Pretty sure the Youtube app is closer to the Android version on iPhone 5 now...I mean....I used it on the device. Just a few days ago lol.

Search for "io6 wifi problems". Also, I cannot upgrade my ipad since Google maps and Youtube were removed. Is there an ipad versions now? Once Google maps comes out, I will upgrade, but that will hopefully be around iOS 6.x time.

 

[coldfoot]

Android - 360
iOS - PS3
WP - Wii

thread/

LOL, 360 would be in last place if its gaming library was as pathetic as Android, and iDevices have GPU's that are WAY faster than Android devices, which is not true with PS3/360.

 

[this_guy]

....



You guys do know that Hangouts on the phone work exactly like phonecalls right? When I go to dialer, its an option, like texting, IMing, or calling.


An honest to god advantage of face time is its in EVERY iPhone. G+ isn't unless its a Nexus device.

I have G+ on my HTC EVO LTE and Samsung Galaxy S3. I didn't download them either because I don't really use it. (I don't use Facetime on my iPad either)

 

[kinggroin]

I have G+ on my HTC EVO LTE and Samsung Galaxy S3. I didn't download them either because I don't really use it. (I don't use Facetime on my iPad either)

Ah! Well that's great news to hear.

Hopefully its standard on all devices here on out.