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Halo |OT10| The Calm Before The Storm

GhaleonEB

Member
Right - having a hard time making this clear - in the hands of a great player it doesn't really matter whether they've got bifle or sniper. In my hands, it does.

It's not affecting balance, but it is narrowing the gap between players.

I'm not really thinking of it in terms of skill gaps or anything. I talking about situational tactics. If we know someone has a Binary Rifle on the other team, we'll behave differently than if they got a rocket launcher, or a Concussion Rifle.

When I played at PAX I picked up the Binary without knowing what it was, scoped in, and instantly toasted a marauding Warthog. Now that was at PAX and it was all new. But in a game in matchmaking, a while after release, knowing the other team has that capability will be important.
 

BigShow36

Member
Right - having a hard time making this clear - in the hands of a great player it doesn't really matter whether they've got bifle or sniper. In my hands, it does.

It's not affecting balance, but it is narrowing the gap between players.

But that's the very deffinition of balance in a game played competitively.
Balanced features don't lower the skill-gap, unbalanced one's do.

Oooh I did! It pushed me to be a better thinker and player as it showed immediate gratification.

I don't understand your logic. I'm not sure if you're serious or if you're just saying it because you think it will rile me up.
 
Making something bipedal work right under full physics would be too annoying. Flipping it back into position would look very weird as well.

WaitWhat-ElephantFlip.jpg
Your point? lol.
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
Ordnance generally can fuck off, and I think you're going to see an awful lot of bitching about it once the honeymoon is over, but I'm pretty resigned to it at this point. Roll on, dice of fate, roll on.
Yeah, it sounds fun as a novelty, but it's imbalanced by design. People who are winning get power weapons. And then there's the fact that you have no idea what the enemy team might have, as Ghaleon pointed out.

Edit : holy shit lol
 
For a lot of people, these are very dirty words.

Also, it may not affect balance over the long haul, where people get their 'share' of Binary Rifle drops, but in individual games it is absolutely a gamechanger if someone rolls a lucky double-6 and gets a Binary Rifle in their personal ordnance. And individual games are where balance is assessed. Or they used to be.

Because in modern FPS 'design', individual games pretty much don't matter anymore, only career stats.

I have a guess about this. Hopefully 343 took a step in the right direction and does something like this with Ordnance settings.

Ordnance > Personal Ordnance > Options

Battle Rifle | 0%
DMR | 0%
Storm Rifle | 0%
Light Rifle | 0%
Boltshot | 0%
Magnum | 0%
Suppressor | 0%
Plasma Pistol | 0%
Needler | 15%
SAW | 10%
Rocket Launcher | 5%
Shotgun | 10%
Sniper Rifle | 5%
Railgun | 10%
Sticky Detonator | 10%
Spartan Laser | 5%
Concussion Rifle 10%
Energy Sword | 5%
Scattershot | 5%
Beam Rifle | 5%
Binary Rifle | 4%
Incineration Cannon | 1%

Being able to toggle weapon percentages on the drops would be ridiculously useful. Just make the percentages work like encounter rates in an RPG, with the crazy powerful stuff only having like a 1% chance of showing up.

EDIT: It'd be cool if you could get a Support Upgrade that let you have slight control over your Ordnance drop weapons. Don't make it so that you can change every option (like all Binary Rifles, etc.) just some simple ones. For example:
Tool of Destruction
-Triples your chance of receiving _____. (Any power weapon save for the Promethean ones)
Demolition Man
-Personal ordnance drops always give you the grenades your loadout has equipped.
Powerup Preference
-Always gives you the ______ powerup. (Damage Boost / Speed Boost / Overshield)
 

BigShow36

Member
Judging by your posts about prior games- I kind of figured personal ordnance would reward your playstyle more than most, for pushing the action.

I would prefer that the utility weapons that everyone has allows them to push the action. Randomly dropping unbalanced power weapons is not the kind of action pushing I want.

Being able to toggle weapon percentages on the drops would be ridiculously useful. Just make the percentages work like encounter rates in an RPG, with the crazy powerful stuff only having like a 1% chance of showing up.

You forgot the part where Halo games only allow you increments of 10%, 20%, 50%, 73% and 300%.
 
So is Infinity Slayer different than just normal slayer? I thought Infinity was just a lore thing, but I'm seeing it as a playlist description. What does that mean?
 

BigShow36

Member
So is Infinity Slayer different than just normal slayer? I thought Infinity was just a lore thing, but I'm seeing it as a playlist description. What does that mean?

Infinity Slayer is the new Slayer mode with all the new bells and whistles. There's global ordnance and personal ordnance drops, and the score is not by kills but by combined score.
 

Amazing Mic

Neo Member
I would prefer that the utility weapons that everyone has allows them to push the action. Randomly dropping unbalanced power weapons is not the kind of action pushing I want.

Got it. I've been okay with this- it'd probably make the game more "arcade-y" when I play with my old college buddies and we all have a beer- just because I bought into there being the classic gametypes available when I want to put that hat on.

Granted, now it's close to launch, specifics are still nil (a head scratcher for me), and I keep hearing rumors of the gametypes I do love getting axed- so yeah, I get your concern.

Infinity Slayer is the new Slayer mode with all the new bells and whistles. There's global ordnance and personal ordnance drops, and the score is not by kills but by combined score.

To clarify, team score is still based on kills (why there is the multiplier I'll never know). Personal score (for XP purposes, etc.) is based on combined stats. Again, I really dislike this- there is going to be so much confusion, just like there still is 2 years later w/ Arena. Six months from now people will still be asking this question. It really should be laid out clearly on an official page.
 
I would prefer that the utility weapons that everyone has allows them to push the action. Randomly dropping unbalanced power weapons is not the kind of action pushing I want.



You forgot the part where Halo games only allow you increments of 10%, 20%, 50%, 73% and 300%.

I can't wait for the bug 343 mentions in dev testing where you could set your percentage to 300% and it would give you three of the weapons in a single drop. :lol

Dammit, I want a Tactical Package that lets me spawn "dummy" Ordnance. That is, it simply shows up with an "Ordnance - Grenades" indicator on the HUD for everyone else, but for you it shows up as an Ordnance with a red X. If anyone tries to go pick it up, it explodes with a decent enough hitbox to kill you and anyone nearby. Broken or not I would use the shit out of that. Maybe make it replace your Personal Ordnance to balance it.
 

Beckx

Member
But that's the very deffinition of balance in a game played competitively.
Balanced features don't lower the skill-gap, unbalanced one's do.

Maybe this will explain where I'm coming from: balance is something best judged by comparing equally skilled, high level players. Does picking a particular character, for example, translate into an I win button among equally matched, experienced players? If so, it's probably not balanced.

I don't see the bifle - yet - as affecting balance in that sense more than a sniper.

One more thing about the bifle - after you've seen that red ray of death floating around, who keeps running back into the meat grinder? Who charges that DMR a-blazin'? We saw a lot of that in Duncan's opponents.
 
I hate this.

I understand why Halo 3 had to do it, but with Megalo surely it would be much more customizable.
Percentage sliders pl0x.

Also, does personal ordnance use path mapping/finding, or are personal ordnance points forgeable? I would assume the latter, but this suggests otherwise:

HDYD.png
HE8H.png
 
I have a guess about this. Hopefully 343 took a step in the right direction and does something like this with Ordnance settings.

Ordnance > Personal Ordnance > Options

Battle Rifle | 0%
DMR | 0%
Storm Rifle | 0%
Light Rifle | 0%
Boltshot | 0%
Magnum | 0%
Suppressor | 0%
Plasma Pistol | 0%
Needler | 15%
SAW | 10%
Rocket Launcher | 5%
Shotgun | 10%
Sniper Rifle | 5%
Railgun | 10%
Sticky Detonator | 10%
Spartan Laser | 5%
Concussion Rifle 10%
Energy Sword | 5%
Scattershot | 5%
Beam Rifle | 5%
Binary Rifle | 4%
Incineration Cannon | 1%

Being able to toggle weapon percentages on the drops would be ridiculously useful. Just make the percentages work like encounter rates in an RPG, with the crazy powerful stuff only having like a 1% chance of showing up.

EDIT: It'd be cool if you could get a Support Upgrade that let you have slight control over your Ordnance drop weapons. Don't make it so that you can change every option (like all Binary Rifles, etc.) just some simple ones. For example:
Tool of Destruction
-Triples your chance of receiving _____. (Any power weapon save for the Promethean ones)
Demolition Man
-Personal ordnance drops always give you the grenades your loadout has equipped.
Powerup Preference
-Always gives you the ______ powerup. (Damage Boost / Speed Boost / Overshield)


wait for Spartan Laser or specific ordinance drops weekends
 
I would prefer that the utility weapons that everyone has allows them to push the action. Randomly dropping unbalanced power weapons is not the kind of action pushing I want.

BigShow pls. The Halo 1 Rocket Launcher..


I think Halo 4 will be the most competitive Halo game since Halo 2.
 
Maybe this will explain where I'm coming from: balance is something best judged by comparing equally skilled, high level players. Does picking a particular character, for example, translate into an I win button among equally matched, experienced players? If so, it's probably not balanced.

I don't see the bifle - yet - as affecting balance in that sense more than a sniper.

One more thing about the bifle - after you've seen that red ray of death floating around, who keeps running back into the meat grinder? Who charges that DMR a-blazin'? We saw a lot of that in Duncan's opponents.

The big difference is - if your good enough and position yourself well you can take out a enemy sniper - this thing is an instant killing machine which will have people cowering in they're base because there's no way in hell they stand a chance. It could really slow the game down to a halt.
 

heckfu

Banned
I don't understand your logic. I'm not sure if you're serious or if you're just saying it because you think it will rile me up.

Oh, completely serious. When I saw the meter filling up for my personal ordnance it made my adrenaline pump a little more and kept my head in the game. More kills = more space filled in my meter. Meter fills up, I feel like a won a little something in the middle of the game.

And like 3 straight times I got lame drops like needler or speed boost, but when you get a sniper at your feet it felt good.
 
I understand why Halo 3 had to do it, but with Megalo surely it would be much more customizable.
Percentage sliders pl0x.

Also, does personal ordnance use path mapping/finding, or are personal ordnance points forgeable? I would assume the latter, but this suggests otherwise:

HDYD.png
HE8H.png

I initially thought that it relied on some pretty intricate pathfinding, but on further thinking I realized it would be impossible with Forge maps to implement effectively. Even with teleporting drops, you'd have them warping halfway into dynamic walls on custom maps and stuff like that. I'm guessing that you can place "Random Drops" as traditional Ordnance. And then there'd be an option within saying:
Type: PERSONAL | GLOBAL | [BOTH]

So you could potentially save ordnance spots like that. I'm just wondering if we can spawn those ridiculous Dominion turrets in any match.
 
Random weapon drops may not be perfect, but taking an extended period of game time into account, it makes a lot more sense. Thinking about each individual drop being random seems unfair, sure, but over the scope of 100 drops, the randomness turns into equal probabilities for everyone. And thats what I don't get about people's argument against this.

Unfair isn't getting everyone getting random stuff with equal probability, unfair is being able to consistently use something to your advantage without skill. So power weapons are in a sort of neutral territory to me now. The only thing that makes this way unfair is that the power weapons are easier to use than the regular weapons, therefore someone can get a kill disregarding skill level. But skilled players will still be much better with power weapons, especially snipers, plus its not like it takes that much "skill" to remember where power weapons were in the past.

So the only thing that I believe was more skilled about previous Halos is prior knowledge of weapon layouts, and possibly knowledge of what power weapons are being used. Memory as opposed to twitch skills is still skill, I don't disagree with that. But now its almost comparable to dropping everyone, veterans and noobs alike, into a brand new map with no prior knowledge. In a sense, its actually more fair, from an in-the-moment gun-play standpoint.
 

Gray Man

Banned
I like the idea that you could use your personal ordinance drop for someone else, drop a sniper, give it to someone on your team who is more capable with it. This can be done right?
 
Oh, completely serious. When I saw the meter filling up for my personal ordnance it made my adrenaline pump a little more and kept my head in the game. More kills = more space filled in my meter. Meter fills up, I feel like a won a little something in the middle of the game.

And like 3 straight times I got lame drops like needler or speed boost, but when you get a sniper at your feet it felt good.

Get off heckfu's account, Holmes, you hacker.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
Random weapon drops may not be perfect, but taking an extended period of game time into account, it makes a lot more sense. Thinking about each individual drop being random seems unfair, sure, but over the scope of 100 drops, the randomness turns into equal probabilities for everyone. And thats what I don't get about people's argument against this.
So everybody gets screwed over equally.
 

Beckx

Member
The big difference is - if your good enough and position yourself well you can take out a enemy sniper - this thing is an instant killing machine which will have people cowering in they're base because there's no way in hell they stand a chance. It could really slow the game down to a halt.

Agreed, but now that you don't get knocked out of scope & have perks to reduce aim disruption, it's going to be much harder to take out a good sniper.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
Oh, completely serious. When I saw the meter filling up for my personal ordnance it made my adrenaline pump a little more and kept my head in the game. More kills = more space filled in my meter. Meter fills up, I feel like a won a little something in the middle of the game.

And like 3 straight times I got lame drops like needler or speed boost, but when you get a sniper at your feet it felt good.

jNFqw.gif
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
I like the idea that you could use your personal ordinance drop for someone else, drop a sniper, give it to someone on your team who is more capable with it. This can be done right?
Yeah, anyone can pick up a personal ordnance drop once it lands -- you, team mates, enemies.
 
So everybody gets screwed over equally.

In the sense that they aren't able to choose their power weapon yes. But in a way, thats why its more fair now. Power weapons are (or should be) inherently there more for fun, and less for skill anyways. In other words, having the "skill" to remember where your ideal power weapons are is unfair, because its a consistent advantage (its easier to kill someone with power weapons) that a knowledgeable but not necessarily good player can abuse.
 
I hate you, Wahrer. Also bring back cat with sunglasses.
Must be done.
Has there been any confirmation that the power weapons are on a static timer? I was under the impression that they spawn during a window, so, for example, every 1:30 to 2:30 a power weapon will spawn at one of the spawn locations rather than exactly every 1:45.
I'm pretty sure time is static, don't want to find the source though.
Personal ordnance is going to really annoy people.

It really sucks when you get weapons like the needler and then your teammate gets a Railgun like a second later.
The Needler is insanely good though.
Infinity Slayer is the new Slayer mode with all the new bells and whistles. There's global ordnance and personal ordnance drops, and the score is not by kills but by combined score.

The only difference between Infinity Slayer and Slayer is personal ordnance. Regular Slayer still has global ordnance and both games are scored by kills.
 
I don't think map awareness is gone, especially since Global Ordnance requires physical spawn points. I mean hell, you can just go into forge and map them out if you want. The weapon itself may be variable but even that's probably customizable in the game settings! It's just made it more deep of a system, and for all we know there may be a way to fuck with the RNG to get what you want. If weapon percentages and a weapon "pool" are what are being implemented then it'll be very simple to figure out what you can get yourself dropped as long as you keep an eye on enemy weapons. Example of old power weapon strategy:

"ROCKET'S BACK IN THREE ON BOTTOM MID"

New strategy:

"GLOBAL'S DROPPING IN THREE ON RIGHT LIGHT BRIDGE, WHAT HAVE YOU GUYS GOT?"
"I GOT SNIPER"
"I GOT BLAIN BEAM"
"ALRIGHT WE'RE EITHER GONNA GET NEEDLER OR STICKY PISTOL, LET THEM HAVE IT. SECOND GLOBAL SPAWNS IN RED CAVE IN TEN, WHO'S GOT PERSONAL?"
"I GOT PULSES, SAW AND SPEED"
"GO WITH SAW AND THAT'LL LAND US A RAILGUN"
 

Karl2177

Member
I don't think map awareness is gone, especially since Global Ordnance requires physical spawn points. I mean hell, you can just go into forge and map them out if you want. The weapon itself may be variable but even that's probably customizable in the game settings! It's just made it more deep of a system, and for all we know there may be a way to fuck with the RNG to get what you want. If weapon percentages and a weapon "pool" are what are being implemented then it'll be very simple to figure out what you can get yourself dropped as long as you keep an eye on enemy weapons. Example of old power weapon strategy:

"ROCKET'S BACK IN THREE ON BOTTOM MID"

New strategy:

"GLOBAL'S DROPPING IN THREE ON RIGHT LIGHT BRIDGE, WHAT HAVE YOU GUYS GOT?"
"I GOT SNIPER"
"I GOT BLAIN BEAM"
"ALRIGHT WE'RE EITHER GONNA GET NEEDLER OR STICKY PISTOL, LET THEM HAVE IT. SECOND GLOBAL SPAWNS IN RED CAVE IN TEN, WHO'S GOT PERSONAL?"
"I GOT PULSES, SAW AND SPEED"
"GO WITH SAW AND THAT'LL LAND US A SNIPER"
And if they are doing a listen-in, it will sound like "hfdyfdbhuffdrfctgfddtwobffvhsnipebfgdeyvffvjnhrocketsbvfjvftsvjouhfthreedownfvvhvftcsghygvfjbhhfvhhsawhvfjvfgbvgjbftvvdspeedvhgfbjhvvfddsniperohhhhhhhhhhhhh"
 

senador

Banned
We got to preview/review Forward Unto Dawn Episode 2 as well which was cool. I didn't do the review this time though. Here's a link for anyone interested: http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews/archives/44788

I liked the 2nd one a lot, and knowing the ride really starts in the next episode based on what Frank and Stewart Hendler have said, I'm way excited. This will be a definite Blu-ray buy for me unless they really mess it up, but I don't see that happening.

Shaky cam was alright. I watched the Bourne movies recently so maybe I'm conditioned.

The Warthog looks absolutely awesome and I can't wait to see it in some action scenes!

The brief look at the Elite at the end looked promising. Can't wait to see some Covenant!

That beginning...oh god. It makes me so excited for Halo 4.

What's up with the space elevator? Are there multiple, or just one and they are in Africa? I love seeing that and I also love the pretty forest scenes.

Beamish! If you Google "Frank O'Connor Beamish" you will see that Martin Beamish is a character in a book by writer Frank O'Connor. Interesting. Probably just weird coincidence, but still.
 
Thinking about each individual drop being random seems unfair, sure, but over the scope of 100 drops, the randomness turns into equal probabilities for everyone. And thats what I don't get about people's argument against this.
I explicitly mentioned this above. It doesn't matter if it smooths out across infinity (no pun intended) if it fucks with individual games, because individual games have traditionally been the measure of victory and defeat in Halo. Numerous 343 design decisions, though, suggest they are following after the developers of Call of Duty in deciding that enough stats and unlocks laid out in a metagame breadcrumb trail just long enough to sustain players until the next release is sufficient to distract those same players from their actual proficiency at the game they are playing.

Checking my K/D (and XP earned, and armours unlocked, and...) after 100 hours played is not more interesting for me, and never will be, than winning an individual game. And if that game gets settled at 48-49 because some guy rolled a binary rifle on his last drop and got a hopelessly easy double kill to flip the script, that fucks with my understanding of both fairness and fun. It doesn't matter if the Binary Rifle is 'balanced' over the metagame if it ruins the actual games.
 

Gray Man

Banned
I would say put a waypoint over ordinance called in that has something extra powerful in in. For example, Beam Rifle, Sniper, Rockets, Binary Rifle, Fuel Rod etc etc.

I don't see why we need a waypoint for Over Shield as an example, we never got a notice on that before.
 
I explicitly mentioned this above. It doesn't matter if it smooths out across infinity (no pun intended) if it fucks with individual games, because individual games have traditionally been the measure of victory and defeat in Halo. Numerous 343 design decisions, though, suggest they are following after the developers of Call of Duty in deciding that enough stats and unlocks laid out in a metagame breadcrumb trail just long enough to sustain players until the next release is sufficient to distract those same players from their actual proficiency at the game they are playing.

Checking my K/D (and XP earned, and armours unlocked, and...) after 100 hours played is not more interesting for me, and never will be, than winning an individual game. And if that game gets settled at 48-49 because some guy rolled a binary rifle on his last drop and got a hopelessly easy double kill to flip the script, that fucks with my understanding of both fairness and fun. It doesn't matter if the Binary Rifle is 'balanced' over the metagame if it ruins the actual games.

I agree with this so that definitely weakens my argument on a single game basis, but my point still stands that there is not necessarily any gameplay skill involved in knowing where power weapons are. I still choose randomness over that.

Edit: it is fun to fight over power weapons, but it also bottlenecks the hell out of maps. I think random drops will change up the map dynamic a shitload. So when 343 say its more dynamic now, I wouldn't totally disregard that.
 
And if they are doing a listen-in, it will sound like "hfdyfdbhuffdrfctgfddtwobffvhsnipebfgdeyvffvjnhrocketsbvfjvftsvjouhfthreedownfvvhvftcsghygvfjbhhfvhhsawhvfjvfgbvgjbftvvdspeedvhgfbjhvvfddsniperohhhhhhhhhhhhh"

Yeah, I don't know how MLG does it, they're like the fucking Vortigaunts from Half-Life. "Alright, now let's listen in on Team Knuckles Deep and see how they're handling the situation!"
"WHARRRGARBLESNIPERREDHRRRRRRNNNNHHFFFFFGRBDONGROCKETSBLAINBLAINBEEPBOOPBOPBANSHEEZIPZOPZOOPITYZOOJOOBINARYRIFLE"

I explicitly mentioned this above. It doesn't matter if it smooths out across infinity (no pun intended) if it fucks with individual games, because individual games have traditionally been the measure of victory and defeat in Halo. Numerous 343 design decisions, though, suggest they are following after the developers of Call of Duty in deciding that enough stats and unlocks laid out in a metagame breadcrumb trail just long enough to sustain players until the next release is sufficient to distract those same players from their actual proficiency at the game they are playing.

Checking my K/D (and XP earned, and armours unlocked, and...) after 100 hours played is not more interesting for me, and never will be, than winning an individual game. And if that game gets settled at 48-49 because some guy rolled a binary rifle on his last drop and got a hopelessly easy double kill to flip the script, that fucks with my understanding of both fairness and fun. It doesn't matter if the Binary Rifle is 'balanced' over the metagame if it ruins the actual games.

I just realized getting shot out of scope in one shot while holding the Binary Rifle would be a really useful counter, think about it. You have to scope to actually do any damage. So if you have a clean shot and you're not spotted, you're getting a kill. But if you're trying to nail someone at mid-range that's actively shooting you? Bam! You scope in, shoot a hardlight blank and completely miss, getting yourself killed.
 
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