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Games Journalism! Wainwright/Florence/Tomb Raider/Eurogamer/Libel Threats/Doritos

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Dennis

Banned
A few personal observations and comments in no particular order:


1) Yes, you can tell PR folks just to send you the games. I've had this discussion with PR in the past and I'll probably have it again in the future. Most "swag" is crap, though t-shirts are useful for the gym. Getting the game early is always the most important thing.

Does this mean I've always turned down swag over the years? No. Most of it gets given away or thrown away (when I've worked at an office it usually went to interns, when I've worked freelance it would either go to Goodwill, friends, or if particularly valuable, be given away on one of the outlets I was writing for).

That said, I have kept a handful of things over the years. My favorite piece is a laser etched plastic block (like the stuff you can find in mall kiosks). It has the Vic Viper image inside. Was a paperweight that was produced for Gradius V on the PS2.

For the record, my review copy of Halo 4 is the standard edition. Which means I got the disc, the case and the 14 day live trial. There's not even in instruction manual in there. I'm playing it exactly like the vast majority of buyers will play it. ;)


2) Yes, readers are interested in this sort of thing. For Tolito to dismiss it as a non-issue is an error in judgement, IMHO. The story is not about Wainwright. Her actions are merely an illustration of what Florence was talking about.


3) Most PR and journalists are honest. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I've dealt with some of those exceptions over the years; the trick to doing so successfully is to never compromise the rules you lay down for yourself.

Some of the more standout exceptions:

a) I had a PR director from a major publisher tell me point blank that I should include a recommendation for one of her games in a holiday buyer's guide even tho I had yet to play it. Now this is from two generations back, so it is a paraphrase, but was basically "You don't need to play a game to write about it." I was surprised to hear something that blatant come out of someone's mouth, but simply reiterated "If I haven't played it, I can't recommend it." What's funny is that prior to this I'd been on something of a blacklist for having published a negative review a few months earlier (I was writing a newspaper column at the time) and hadn't been getting any review code for awhile. I figured that conversation would simply confirm my blacklist status. Instead, I got a surprise FedEx the next day with both the new game she wanted me to cover and all of the prior releases the company had never sent. My reaction was to laugh.

b) Some PR folks love to throw parties. While it can be great to see a bunch of games in one place there are parties that are useful showcases (games are organized, people are available to demo, answer questions, etc.) and then there are just parties. One company which tended to do the latter had a lull in releases one year and as such decided to scale back the parties and go with standard press demos (meet in a hotel room, get a game demo, etc.). After one of these meetings I dropped a friendly note to the PR rep saying how I appreciated the meeting and how it was much more useful (from my perspective) than the company's typical events because it was quiet and offered direct access to the information. I encouraged them to keep doing more demos like that. In response I had a nasty letter sent to myself (and the EIC of one of my outlets) telling me how I shouldn't be telling PR how to do their job and how a lot of effort goes into their parties. I have declined to attend any of their events since that email. I suppose you can call it a permanent, personal blacklist.

c) Lest you think it's just PR who have bad apples, I've had editors disappear off the face of the earth when it comes time to get paid. For a one-off piece it's not worth making a stink (and the cost in pursuing it is usually more than the check anyway), but it does happen.

Despite these, I always strive to not let it color my opinions of others. PR or media, I always assume someone is honest and truthful unless they give me a reason otherwise.


4) Metacritic's influence on the industry is stronger than many think. Why do you see so many sites run the same review for multiple versions (PS3, X360, etc.)? Because MC doesn't like it when separate, platform specific reviews are written by the same person. It's fine if the review text and the score are the same, but if the review text and score are different MC thinks that's a bad thing. From a media perspective this presents a conundrum for all but the biggest outlets. After all it's easy enough to have a single staff member play though a single game on multiple platforms and then write up the differences in separate reviews. Having three different people write up three different reviews not only takes up 3x the resources, but it also doesn't ensure a direct comparison. The fact that MC's editors are trying to exert this sort of control over how other outlets produce their coverage is scary.


5) Ubisoft didn't send out a $2,000 flag. Well, not on purpose. The promo flag wouldn't have cost anywhere near that. It makes a nice headline when people pay crazy prices on eBay and the PR team is sure to get a kick out of it because it means publicity for the game, but they probably spent less than $50 on the package.


6) Unboxing videos in and of themselves are not bad. I don't understand why they get traffic, but they do. That said, the reason Kotaku is getting flack in here for the Halo 4 bit is twofold. One, it gives the impression that Kotaku's EIC thinks unboxing a game console (and reiterating a bullet point from a press release) is more important than taking a hard look at the interactions between press and PR in the industry. Given the size and readership, they are in a good position to research such a story and put the proper resources behind it. The second point has to do with how it creates the appearance of a conflict with the stated gift policy. Tolito ran a story about the $300 Capcom Chess set in which he said he didn't want to use it for a contest and wasn't sure what he was going to do with it. For the Xbox 360 unboxing, there was no mention of what is being done with the console. In short, for a site that makes a big deal about its ethics policy of not accepting anything, these pieces give the perception that said policy is not all that strict.

And that brings us full circle to Florence's original thesis. Many of us in the games media are doing things that could be perceived as wrong/biased/improper even if they are totally innocent. That doesn't mean the perception is true, but we should all be taking a hard look at what we're doing and make sure we don't contribute to that perception. If we don't, we shouldn't complain when others assume that perception is reality.

Thanks for your input and quoting for the new page. Deserves to be read.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
Serious? What the shit are you talking about? I don't want them to dig up dirt on developers or whatever else it is you have in mind with "being serious".

If you're calling what you do "games journalism", I'm expecting editorial to be front and center. If it isn't, don't call it games journalism.

..umm they can do both?

..but I guess it's more fun to toss shit and post a GIF up because the irony of Totilo spouting about journalism and having an un-boxing video.

Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yet that's all it is, because it doesn't really prove anything. That's completely ignoring everything else they do. I don't even read Kotaku often, and I think they post up quite a bit of fluff.

Yet, go ahead and just bring up the unboxing video and ignore the SK story on the front page as well.. but wait.. that doesn't prove your point.
 

conman

Member
As I mentioned in my other post in this thread, the above is all I'm hoping for after the week's shitstorm.

Several insightful posts, Shawn Elliot offering the prime examples, have highlighted the kind of subtle psychology involved and the slow, creeping influence-potential that PR can -- will actively attempt to -- create. The greatest thing for the press that can come from this bollocks (that, hopefully, *has* come from this bollocks) is simply putting the matter out there as an F5 to their own self-perspective.

I'm not baying for blood, I'm not clamouring for the grey-area guilty to be revealed and held to task. I just hope that the issue is now in the thoughts of those we're questioning. I at least want to think that this holiday season's reviews will have an uncommon degree of sincerity.
Maybe I'll just keep reposting your post from now on. Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes.
 
My point is that you and people like you need to constantly be thinking about how your speech and actions make you look and avoid anything that could make people question your integrity. It's the only way you can gain the trust of a demanding and critical readership, which is what I think you should be aspiring to do.

I know this is incredibly difficult and there's lots of grey area, but it's the choice you make when you decide to become a writer. I also know you think that this is what you do every day but it's not enough. I'm glad that you refuse gifts and trips but you need to be more aware of your relationship with PR, and the fact that you said you think it's OK to be friendly with them worries me. I'm not saying that press should be overtly hostile to PR of course, and a cordial and professional relationship is fine. But the minute you say "friendly" you make me think that your judgement is compromised.

Also, every single upstanding member of the press needs to be calling this stuff out and publicly pushing at their peers to improve themselves at every opportunity, and this is especially where I think most of them are failing. It's shitty but right now the fact that so many writers feel that free shit from PR is OK taints every single one of you and it is your collective responsibility to start cleaning it up.

Great points. Look at how news media covered Murdoch and the News of the World scandal. No doubt journalists had friends who worked there, people they had to name and expose. But it was a huge privacy scandal, and editors decided it was in the public interest that this kind of coverup is exposed and the news media is held accountable for their actions.

Above all, a journalist acts in the public interest. It's their responsibility to tell us what's really going on, even if it upsets people. The Florence incident and the larger story around the conflict of interest between game journalists and PR is a big deal. It's a HUGE deal and affects millions of consumers who have the right to know about these systems and how they might be influenced by them.

The fact that no other gaming news outlets want to cover this story is the most telling factor of all. They don't want to upset their PR buddies who give them free swag. They want to get the first exclusives and flights around the world. And worst of all, they have rationalised to themselves that there is no conflict of interest and everything they do is above board.
 
A few personal observations and comments in no particular order:


1) Yes, you can tell PR folks just to send you the games. I've had this discussion with PR in the past and I'll probably have it again in the future. Most "swag" is crap, though t-shirts are useful for the gym. Getting the game early is always the most important thing.

Does this mean I've always turned down swag over the years? No. Most of it gets given away or thrown away (when I've worked at an office it usually went to interns, when I've worked freelance it would either go to Goodwill, friends, or if particularly valuable, be given away on one of the outlets I was writing for).

That said, I have kept a handful of things over the years. My favorite piece is a laser etched plastic block (like the stuff you can find in mall kiosks). It has the Vic Viper image inside. Was a paperweight that was produced for Gradius V on the PS2.

For the record, my review copy of Halo 4 is the standard edition. Which means I got the disc, the case and the 14 day live trial. There's not even in instruction manual in there. I'm playing it exactly like the vast majority of buyers will play it. ;)


2) Yes, readers are interested in this sort of thing. For Tolito to dismiss it as a non-issue is an error in judgement, IMHO. The story is not about Wainwright. Her actions are merely an illustration of what Florence was talking about.


3) Most PR and journalists are honest. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I've dealt with some of those exceptions over the years; the trick to doing so successfully is to never compromise the rules you lay down for yourself.

Some of the more standout exceptions:

a) I had a PR director from a major publisher tell me point blank that I should include a recommendation for one of her games in a holiday buyer's guide even tho I had yet to play it. Now this is from two generations back, so it is a paraphrase, but was basically "You don't need to play a game to write about it." I was surprised to hear something that blatant come out of someone's mouth, but simply reiterated "If I haven't played it, I can't recommend it." What's funny is that prior to this I'd been on something of a blacklist for having published a negative review a few months earlier (I was writing a newspaper column at the time) and hadn't been getting any review code for awhile. I figured that conversation would simply confirm my blacklist status. Instead, I got a surprise FedEx the next day with both the new game she wanted me to cover and all of the prior releases the company had never sent. My reaction was to laugh.

b) Some PR folks love to throw parties. While it can be great to see a bunch of games in one place there are parties that are useful showcases (games are organized, people are available to demo, answer questions, etc.) and then there are just parties. One company which tended to do the latter had a lull in releases one year and as such decided to scale back the parties and go with standard press demos (meet in a hotel room, get a game demo, etc.). After one of these meetings I dropped a friendly note to the PR rep saying how I appreciated the meeting and how it was much more useful (from my perspective) than the company's typical events because it was quiet and offered direct access to the information. I encouraged them to keep doing more demos like that. In response I had a nasty letter sent to myself (and the EIC of one of my outlets) telling me how I shouldn't be telling PR how to do their job and how a lot of effort goes into their parties. I have declined to attend any of their events since that email. I suppose you can call it a permanent, personal blacklist.

c) Lest you think it's just PR who have bad apples, I've had editors disappear off the face of the earth when it comes time to get paid. For a one-off piece it's not worth making a stink (and the cost in pursuing it is usually more than the check anyway), but it does happen.

Despite these, I always strive to not let it color my opinions of others. PR or media, I always assume someone is honest and truthful unless they give me a reason otherwise.


4) Metacritic's influence on the industry is stronger than many think. Why do you see so many sites run the same review for multiple versions (PS3, X360, etc.)? Because MC doesn't like it when separate, platform specific reviews are written by the same person. It's fine if the review text and the score are the same, but if the review text and score are different MC thinks that's a bad thing. From a media perspective this presents a conundrum for all but the biggest outlets. After all it's easy enough to have a single staff member play though a single game on multiple platforms and then write up the differences in separate reviews. Having three different people write up three different reviews not only takes up 3x the resources, but it also doesn't ensure a direct comparison. The fact that MC's editors are trying to exert this sort of control over how other outlets produce their coverage is scary.


5) Ubisoft didn't send out a $2,000 flag. Well, not on purpose. The promo flag wouldn't have cost anywhere near that. It makes a nice headline when people pay crazy prices on eBay and the PR team is sure to get a kick out of it because it means publicity for the game, but they probably spent less than $50 on the package.


6) Unboxing videos in and of themselves are not bad. I don't understand why they get traffic, but they do. That said, the reason Kotaku is getting flack in here for the Halo 4 bit is twofold. One, it gives the impression that Kotaku's EIC thinks unboxing a game console (and reiterating a bullet point from a press release) is more important than taking a hard look at the interactions between press and PR in the industry. Given the size and readership, they are in a good position to research such a story and put the proper resources behind it. The second point has to do with how it creates the appearance of a conflict with the stated gift policy. Tolito ran a story about the $300 Capcom Chess set in which he said he didn't want to use it for a contest and wasn't sure what he was going to do with it. For the Xbox 360 unboxing, there was no mention of what is being done with the console. In short, for a site that makes a big deal about its ethics policy of not accepting anything, these pieces give the perception that said policy is not all that strict.

And that brings us full circle to Florence's original thesis. Many of us in the games media are doing things that could be perceived as wrong/biased/improper even if they are totally innocent. That doesn't mean the perception is true, but we should all be taking a hard look at what we're doing and make sure we don't contribute to that perception. If we don't, we shouldn't complain when others assume that perception is reality.

This is an awesome post.
 

beastmode

Member
..umm they can do both?

..but I guess it's more fun to toss shit and post a GIF up because the irony of Totilo spouting about journalism and having an un-boxing video.

Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yet that's all it is, because it doesn't really prove anything. That's completely ignoring everything else they do. I don't even read Kotaku often, and I think they post up quite a bit of fluff.

Yet, go ahead and just bring up the unboxing video and ignore the SK story on the front page as well.. but wait.. that doesn't prove your point.
The SK story doesn't potentially show Gawker employees in a bad light.

Also, would a similar article about a AAA game be published? I doubt it.
 

BlackJace

Member
..umm they can do both?

..but I guess it's more fun to toss shit and post a GIF up because the irony of Totilo spouting about journalism and having an un-boxing video.

Yeah, it's kind of funny. Yet that's all it is, because it doesn't really prove anything. That's completely ignoring everything else they do. I don't even read Kotaku often, and I think they post up quite a bit of fluff.

Yet, go ahead and just bring up the unboxing video and ignore the SK story on the front page as well.. but wait.. that doesn't prove your point.

You are being willfully ignorant, I'm sure. Doing both? Posting frivolous non-stories, and the occasional professional articles should not coexist. The media is a very powerful tool, and I and many other people expect it to remain professional.
 

NervousXtian

Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
You are being willfully ignorant, I'm sure. Doing both? Posting frivolous non-stories, and the occasional professional articles should not coexist. The media is a very powerful tool, and I and many other people expect it to remain professional.

See this is why it's hard to have discussion with you guys, what you want is so far away from what could probably ever be a successful gaming site.

One actual story isn't an apology for a long history of general games media shadiness, sorry.

Well this too, because it's not even a reasonable statement. What the hell are you even trying to say with this line? Honestly? Your statement isn't even about Kotaku... and you are somehow making them a scapegoat for gaming media in general.. if you don't see how that is unfair.. I don't know.
 

Rufus

Member
See this is why it's hard to have discussion with you guys, what you want is so far away from what could probably ever be a successful gaming site.
That's not why it's hard to have a discussion. That's what makes it hard to make it a reality. You shouldn't confuse the two.
I won't accept your points simply because gaming sites are a business, too (which I realize, thank you). That doesn't make the discussion less worth having.
Do you want to make money with editorial and call yourself a journalist, or do you want to sometimes do editorial, sometimes PR fluff and still call yourself a journalist? I think there should be a separation there. I don't care whether or not someone makes money by being a shill on the side, just don't try to pass it off as something it isn't.

..umm they can do both?
At least you put a question mark behind it.
 

spirity

Member
A few personal observations and comments in no particular order:


1) Yes, you can tell PR folks just to send you the games. I've had this discussion with PR in the past and I'll probably have it again in the future. Most "swag" is crap, though t-shirts are useful for the gym. Getting the game early is always the most important thing.

Does this mean I've always turned down swag over the years? No. Most of it gets given away or thrown away (when I've worked at an office it usually went to interns, when I've worked freelance it would either go to Goodwill, friends, or if particularly valuable, be given away on one of the outlets I was writing for).

That said, I have kept a handful of things over the years. My favorite piece is a laser etched plastic block (like the stuff you can find in mall kiosks). It has the Vic Viper image inside. Was a paperweight that was produced for Gradius V on the PS2.

For the record, my review copy of Halo 4 is the standard edition. Which means I got the disc, the case and the 14 day live trial. There's not even in instruction manual in there. I'm playing it exactly like the vast majority of buyers will play it. ;)


2) Yes, readers are interested in this sort of thing. For Tolito to dismiss it as a non-issue is an error in judgement, IMHO. The story is not about Wainwright. Her actions are merely an illustration of what Florence was talking about.


3) Most PR and journalists are honest. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I've dealt with some of those exceptions over the years; the trick to doing so successfully is to never compromise the rules you lay down for yourself.

Some of the more standout exceptions:

a) I had a PR director from a major publisher tell me point blank that I should include a recommendation for one of her games in a holiday buyer's guide even tho I had yet to play it. Now this is from two generations back, so it is a paraphrase, but was basically "You don't need to play a game to write about it." I was surprised to hear something that blatant come out of someone's mouth, but simply reiterated "If I haven't played it, I can't recommend it." What's funny is that prior to this I'd been on something of a blacklist for having published a negative review a few months earlier (I was writing a newspaper column at the time) and hadn't been getting any review code for awhile. I figured that conversation would simply confirm my blacklist status. Instead, I got a surprise FedEx the next day with both the new game she wanted me to cover and all of the prior releases the company had never sent. My reaction was to laugh.

b) Some PR folks love to throw parties. While it can be great to see a bunch of games in one place there are parties that are useful showcases (games are organized, people are available to demo, answer questions, etc.) and then there are just parties. One company which tended to do the latter had a lull in releases one year and as such decided to scale back the parties and go with standard press demos (meet in a hotel room, get a game demo, etc.). After one of these meetings I dropped a friendly note to the PR rep saying how I appreciated the meeting and how it was much more useful (from my perspective) than the company's typical events because it was quiet and offered direct access to the information. I encouraged them to keep doing more demos like that. In response I had a nasty letter sent to myself (and the EIC of one of my outlets) telling me how I shouldn't be telling PR how to do their job and how a lot of effort goes into their parties. I have declined to attend any of their events since that email. I suppose you can call it a permanent, personal blacklist.

c) Lest you think it's just PR who have bad apples, I've had editors disappear off the face of the earth when it comes time to get paid. For a one-off piece it's not worth making a stink (and the cost in pursuing it is usually more than the check anyway), but it does happen.

Despite these, I always strive to not let it color my opinions of others. PR or media, I always assume someone is honest and truthful unless they give me a reason otherwise.


4) Metacritic's influence on the industry is stronger than many think. Why do you see so many sites run the same review for multiple versions (PS3, X360, etc.)? Because MC doesn't like it when separate, platform specific reviews are written by the same person. It's fine if the review text and the score are the same, but if the review text and score are different MC thinks that's a bad thing. From a media perspective this presents a conundrum for all but the biggest outlets. After all it's easy enough to have a single staff member play though a single game on multiple platforms and then write up the differences in separate reviews. Having three different people write up three different reviews not only takes up 3x the resources, but it also doesn't ensure a direct comparison. The fact that MC's editors are trying to exert this sort of control over how other outlets produce their coverage is scary.


5) Ubisoft didn't send out a $2,000 flag. Well, not on purpose. The promo flag wouldn't have cost anywhere near that. It makes a nice headline when people pay crazy prices on eBay and the PR team is sure to get a kick out of it because it means publicity for the game, but they probably spent less than $50 on the package.


6) Unboxing videos in and of themselves are not bad. I don't understand why they get traffic, but they do. That said, the reason Kotaku is getting flack in here for the Halo 4 bit is twofold. One, it gives the impression that Kotaku's EIC thinks unboxing a game console (and reiterating a bullet point from a press release) is more important than taking a hard look at the interactions between press and PR in the industry. Given the size and readership, they are in a good position to research such a story and put the proper resources behind it. The second point has to do with how it creates the appearance of a conflict with the stated gift policy. Tolito ran a story about the $300 Capcom Chess set in which he said he didn't want to use it for a contest and wasn't sure what he was going to do with it. For the Xbox 360 unboxing, there was no mention of what is being done with the console. In short, for a site that makes a big deal about its ethics policy of not accepting anything, these pieces give the perception that said policy is not all that strict.

And that brings us full circle to Florence's original thesis. Many of us in the games media are doing things that could be perceived as wrong/biased/improper even if they are totally innocent. That doesn't mean the perception is true, but we should all be taking a hard look at what we're doing and make sure we don't contribute to that perception. If we don't, we shouldn't complain when others assume that perception is reality.

Thank you.
 
I don't really have a problem with 90% of games journalists being shills (victimless crime really), but the sheer denial they express makes me cringe. You could irrigate Egypt with that shit.
 
3) Most PR and journalists are honest. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are the exception rather than the rule. I've dealt with some of those exceptions over the years; the trick to doing so successfully is to never compromise the rules you lay down for yourself.

I appreciate a lot of what you said and agree with a lot of it. Thanks for your candor and your willingness to talk about it at length. I want to kind of take one smaller part of this issue though and explore it. And that is the impact of PR on how it generates content. I'm not trying to pick on Kotaku but that Chess story and that 360 unboxing are perfect examples how companies "buy" stories just by sending swag. Nintendo's sending a truckfull of ladies to make a giant presentation to Giant Bomb (and then them filming it for their audience) is another.

I don't think anybody here is under the impression that those kinds of things directly generate high review scores. But they do shape the general coverage of products both in terms of the amount of coverage products receive and the general anticipation for those products. How is the next "hot new thing" to be anticipated being decided and covered? Well my guess is that if you send press to party with a fucking siberian tiger in the center of the room that goes a long way to people just having the implicit impression that your product is a "big deal." And in turn it creates the idea in the general media culture that it is a big deal. And in this sense it is really hard to see where PR ends and where game media coverage begins.
 

Rufus

Member
So you are saying a gaming site needs to be all serious news, all the time?

That's really what you want?

Because that's what you guys keep alluding too.
I've already replied to you in regards to "serious". Read that again if you like.

I've also edited the post you've replied to with this.
 
I think the fact people in the games press (not all, of course) seem dumbfounded that any of us would think these practices seem shady is the most telling thing about all this. They're so entrenched in this world that it all just seems so normal to them.
 
Can someone explain this Ryan Davis Assassins Creed flag thing? I must of missed it.

It's not specific to Ryan Davis. There is a very fancy Assassin's Creed 3 PR kit that includes a crafted confederate flag and some other nice stuff. Currently someone is trying to sell it on Ebay for $2,000 claiming how special, and elaborate it is and claiming that very few of them were made and outlets like Giant Bomb and Gamespot received them.
 
I appreciate a lot of what you said and agree. I want to kind of take one smaller part of this issue though and explore it. And that is the impact of PR on how it generates content. I'm not trying to pick on Kotaku but that Chess story and that 360 unboxing are perfect examples how companies "buy" stories just by sending swag. Nintendo's sending a truckfull of ladies to make a giant presentation to Giant Bomb (and then them filming it for their audience) is another.

I don't think anybody here is under the impression that those kinds of things directly generate high review scores. But they do shape the general coverage of products both in terms of the amount of coverage products receive and the general anticipation for those products. How is the next "hot new thing" to be anticipated being decided and covered? Well my guess is that if you send press to party with a fucking siberian tiger in the center of the room that goes a long way to people just having the implicit impression that your game is a "big deal." And in turn it creates the idea in the general media culture that it is a big deal. And in this sense it is really hard to see where PR ends and where game media coverage begins.
The thing is, that's how the world works and how every business operates. Look at Apple events, look at car shows, look at fashion, etc. Everyone is trying to make their product a big deal and many people go along with it. I don't expect gaming media to operate according to a higher standard. It isn't perfect, it can be better, sure, but we just have to trust the media we visit to not let that stuff influence them. Don't trust them? Go to another website.

The solution might be to get some of the best editors together and make a subscription website. No ads, no influence. The readers are paying, not the gaming companies then. But no one would be willing to pay, since for most the current free stuff is also good enough.

Ehm... Giant Bomb is a lot about fun. Eurogamer is the site where this whole discussion started. Penny-Arcade isn't a serious gaming website.
 
The thing is, that's how the world works and how every business operates. Look at Apple events, look at car shows, look at fashion, etc. Everyone is trying to make their product a big deal and many people go along with it. I don't expect gaming media to operate according to a higher standard. It isn't perfect, it can be better, sure, but we just have to trust the media we visit to not let that stuff influence them. Don't trust them? Go to another website.


I understand that is how the business world and the PR works. My point was that you don't have to let them define the emphasis of your coverage, the amount of your coverage, or enthusiasm of your coverage. And a lot of media outlets are doing things that make me severely question how much PR is really directing their websites coverage.

The solution might be to get some of the best editors together and make a subscription website. No ads, no influence. The readers are paying, not the gaming companies then. But no one would be willing to pay, since for most the current free stuff is also good enough.

Or my solution rather is to rely more on my network of friends, "non-professional" podcasts like Gamers with Jobs, Idle Thumbs, and gaming communities like GAF for my info. That information is also free but it is not generated by people who are directly influenced by PR.
 

Lancehead

Member
The solution might be to get some of the best editors together and make a subscription website. No ads, no influence. The readers are paying, not the gaming companies then. But no one would be willing to pay, since for most the current free stuff is also good enough.

Isn't that what Penny Arcade's kickstarter is about? I haven't followed it since after it was announced.
 
Can someone explain this Ryan Davis Assassins Creed flag thing? I must of missed it.

If that weren't enough, the flag comes packed in a presentation case that's made of real wood and features a real fire branded AC logo. Rounding out the whole package is a beautifully detailed letter written by a top Ubisoft exec.
These flags are rare, make no mistake about it. This isn't the cheapy flag that will come packed in the CE version of the ACIII game. Instead, flags like this one were given only to select members of the press, retail partners, and they were likely also handed out internally within Ubisoft.

Fact is, no one really knows how many of these flags exist. I have, however, done a bit of research and as of today, I have personally been able to document a grand total of 14 of these flags (including the flag in this listing.)
I found that, for instance, the offices of Giant Bomb, EGM, and Destructoid were each sent one of these flags.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330805265358

The letter that he mentions (it's from UBI's Sr. VP of sales and marketing) thanks these sites for helping AC3 "achieve stellar exposure long before launch" and for "igniting unprecedented consumer interest in Assassin's Creed 3" among other things.
 

Jintor

Member
I appreciate a lot of what you said and agree with a lot of it. Thanks for your candor and your willingness to talk about it at length. I want to kind of take one smaller part of this issue though and explore it. And that is the impact of PR on how it generates content. I'm not trying to pick on Kotaku but that Chess story and that 360 unboxing are perfect examples how companies "buy" stories just by sending swag. Nintendo's sending a truckfull of ladies to make a giant presentation to Giant Bomb (and then them filming it for their audience) is another.

I don't think anybody here is under the impression that those kinds of things directly generate high review scores. But they do shape the general coverage of products both in terms of the amount of coverage products receive and the general anticipation for those products. How is the next "hot new thing" to be anticipated being decided and covered? Well my guess is that if you send press to party with a fucking siberian tiger in the center of the room that goes a long way to people just having the implicit impression that your product is a "big deal." And in turn it creates the idea in the general media culture that it is a big deal. And in this sense it is really hard to see where PR ends and where game media coverage begins.

What happens if (as happened to our outlet, and others I know of) you get sent a Lollipop Chainsaw body pillow

what message does that send
 
I understand that is how the business world and the PR works. My point was that you don't have to let them define the emphasis of your coverage, the amount of your coverage, or enthusiasm of your coverage. And a lot of media outlets are doing things that make me severely question how much PR is really directing their websites coverage.
Of course that is always a concern, as it should be. But some requests users seem to make here are unreasonable and at odds with what the majority of the public wants. An unboxing video is also filled with information. It's a product the consumer can buy, so I think it is the role of a gaming website to show what's inside before releasedate. And the only way to get that before release, is with the help of the publisher.

In the end, media (both gaming and others) need to work with PR and make compromises. Whether you trust a certain outlet is all up to the reader and there is no lack of media to choice from if you distrust a certain outlet.

Isn't that what Penny Arcade's kickstarter is about? I haven't followed it since after it was announced.
I bit. They got rid of some ads I think starting in 2013 because of that. And they cut out the comics they got paid for. But I'm not that up-to-date on the situation, so if someone can correct me if I'm wrong, please do.
 

Shurs

Member
http://penny-arcade.com/report/ -- I didn't even know this was a thing until yesterday, though that's on me, not the site.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/ -- I have nothing ill to say about this site.
http://www.eurogamer.net/ -- This whole thing is because they stifled one of their freelancers because of the threat of a lawsuit.
http://gamasutra.com/ -- They split their articles up into ridiculously small chunks to get more hits.
http://www.giantbomb.com/ -- They give developers/publicist more of a voice than they should have by inviting them to participate in Quick Looks and podcasts.

.
 
Well my guess is that if you send press to party with a fucking siberian tiger in the center of the room that goes a long way to people just having the implicit impression that your product is a "big deal." And in turn it creates the idea in the general media culture that it is a big deal. And in this sense it is really hard to see where PR ends and where game media coverage begins.

You're quite correct to state it but I don't see a solution to this specific problem. That is marketing in a nut-shell; making your product a 'big deal' - in both the eyes of the press and consumers. It's up to the press to report such tactics in a manner that keeps their integrity intact.
 
I think the fact people in the games press (not all, of course) seem dumbfounded that any of us would think these practices seem shady is the most telling thing about all this. They're so entrenched in this world that it all just seems so normal to them.

hey! - you get all your games free for a couple years & see if it don't eventually seem 'normal' to you ;) ...
 

beastmode

Member
Ehm... Giant Bomb is a lot about fun. Eurogamer is the site where this whole discussion started. Penny-Arcade isn't a serious gaming website.
PA Report isn't serious?

"See this is why it's hard to have discussion with you guys, what you want is so far away from what could probably ever be a successful gaming site."

The point was that there are websites that GAFers consider meeting the minimum for integrity. What people want is not "so far away from what could ever be a successful gaming site."
 

Syriel

Member
I appreciate a lot of what you said and agree with a lot of it. Thanks for your candor and your willingness to talk about it at length. I want to kind of take one smaller part of this issue though and explore it. And that is the impact of PR on how it generates content. I'm not trying to pick on Kotaku but that Chess story and that 360 unboxing are perfect examples how companies "buy" stories just by sending swag. Nintendo's sending a truckfull of ladies to make a giant presentation to Giant Bomb (and then them filming it for their audience) is another.

I don't think anybody here is under the impression that those kinds of things directly generate high review scores. But they do shape the general coverage of products both in terms of the amount of coverage products receive and the general anticipation for those products. How is the next "hot new thing" to be anticipated being decided and covered? Well my guess is that if you send press to party with a fucking siberian tiger in the center of the room that goes a long way to people just having the implicit impression that your product is a "big deal." And in turn it creates the idea in the general media culture that it is a big deal. And in this sense it is really hard to see where PR ends and where game media coverage begins.

There are two ways to look at the "event" or "lifestyle" pieces.

One is that they are irrelevant and shouldn't be covered as they simply provide coverage of a manufactured spectacle.

The other is that they are part of the industry and something that your readers will want to know about.

Individually, it may seem very black and white, but as part of a whole publication, such fluff pieces do have a place.

For example, take a look at newspapers. There is a section for local news, world, news, biz news, tech news, entertainment, etc. There are serious stories alongside fluff bits about what the stars wore on the red carpet.

As part of a holistic approach, I see nothing wrong with "event" or "lifestyle" or "fluff" coverage as long as it isn't presented as hard news. It's still something that is going to be of interest to readers. Your readers are going to be smart enough to know the difference, so long as you categorize it properly in your magazine, web site, TV show, etc. They're only going to be offended if you pretend that "fluff" piece is real news.
 
What happens if (as happened to our outlet, and others I know of) you get sent a Lollipop Chainsaw body pillow

what message does that send

That the PR company is really terrible. Or maybe not. It could have generated a lot of ironic coverage like that EA stunt a few years ago where they literally sent the press a signed check under the auspices of it being "Greed" one of the deadly sins from Dante's Inferno. That got a lot of coverage, which in the end, was a win for EA.
 
PA Report isn't serious?

"See this is why it's hard to have discussion with you guys, what you want is so far away from what could probably ever be a successful gaming site."

The point was that there are websites that GAFers consider as meeting some sort of minimum for integrity. It's not "so far away from what could ever be a successful gaming site."

The Penny Arcade Report is one of the most serious gaming news sites I've ever seen.

Never heard of PA Report, sorry. Was just talking about the blog posts and comic, so I found it strange it got mentioned in that list. Don't have an opinion on that one then. My points for the others are still standing.
 

Shurs

Member
Or my solution rather is to rely more on my network of friends, "non-professional" podcasts like Gamers with Jobs, Idle Thumbs, and gaming communities like GAF for my info. That information is also free but it is not generated by people who are directly influenced by PR.

--Quite a few of the people on Gamers With Jobs write about games and, no doubt, deal with PR people.

--There was a multi-page thread on GAF a few days ago about the PR guy from Atlus quitting.

--Idle Thumbs is awesome.
 
I think the fact people in the games press (not all, of course) seem dumbfounded that any of us would think these practices seem shady is the most telling thing about all this. They're so entrenched in this world that it all just seems so normal to them.

Gaming journalism has low barriers to entry and it's not a well paid profession.

So I can see how the games press have been conditioned to see the freebies as a perk rather than a problem.

With an endless supply of young naive writers / bloggers trying to break into gaming journalism by working for peanuts this situation is unlikely to change.
 
No, no, no, sort of maybe, and no.

Just because they are GAF darlings doesn't mean they are really all that different.

Fuck, Eurogamer started this goddamned mess.

Any chance you could explain your reasoning? Also claiming Eurogamer started this shows you still have no real grasp on why(& for what reason) people are complaining.
 

Jintor

Member
Ultimately, for me, what it comes down to is the problem that is endemic with all media: people want quality journalism, but they sure as fuck don't want to pay quality journalism prices for it.
 
There are two ways to look at the "event" or "lifestyle" pieces.

One is that they are irrelevant and shouldn't be covered as they simply provide coverage of a manufactured spectacle.

The other is that they are part of the industry and something that your readers will want to know about.

Individually, it may seem very black and white, but as part of a whole publication, such fluff pieces do have a place.

For example, take a look at newspapers. There is a section for local news, world, news, biz news, tech news, entertainment, etc. There are serious stories alongside fluff bits about what the stars wore on the red carpet.

As part of a holistic approach, I see nothing wrong with "event" or "lifestyle" or "fluff" coverage as long as it isn't presented as hard news. It's still something that is going to be of interest to readers. Your readers are going to be smart enough to know the difference, so long as you categorize it properly in your magazine, web site, TV show, etc. They're only going to be offended if you pretend that "fluff" piece is real news.


Newspapers are an interesting comparison. Actually it just makes me think of Neil Postman's critique of telegraphic culture in Amusing Ourselves to Death and how it fragments information and makes it all far less relevant. There really is no good reason that serious stories in newspapers have any business next to comic strips or fashion advice columns.

But that is a very tangential discussion. I guess my question is not whether or not there should be some levity in the coverage. But in this case the word when you use the word "fluff" to talk about certain articles, it seems like this is a euphemism for content dictated by PR. And I'm not sure the reader is really aware of how and why this content is being generated. At least I never really was until this thread made me start thinking about it in a deeper way.
 

Quote

Member
Of course Kotaku isn't going to write about it, Gawker as a whole is built off being shills.

Also thank you for the screen shot of the Kotaku comment because I hate giving them even 1 page hit.
 
--Quite a few of the people on Gamers With Jobs write about games and, no doubt, deal with PR people.

--There was a multi-page thread on GAF a few days ago about the PR guy from Atlus quitting.

--Idle Thumbs is awesome.

I think only one of the guys on Gamers with Jobs still does any freelance stuff and even that is pretty rare. The other guys all have jobs outside the industry, hence the title of the site and podcast.

I'm not sure what this Atlus thing is about or why it is relevant. Got a link?
 
And that brings us full circle to Florence's original thesis. Many of us in the games media are doing things that could be perceived as wrong/biased/improper even if they are totally innocent. That doesn't mean the perception is true, but we should all be taking a hard look at what we're doing and make sure we don't contribute to that perception. If we don't, we shouldn't complain when others assume that perception is reality.

Awesome post and I really like this last part. Like I've said, I think the vast majority of game journalists are likely honest, hardworking people. The problem is the perception of impropriety. If you have to ask yourself if this could be perceived as improper, then it probably is. The cover up is always worse than the crime, etc, etc.

Specifically regarding the unboxing video even if you disregard Tolito's statement, Kotaku and any other site should be asking will this create a negative impression. There's nothing inherently wrong about reporting on the contents of a limited edition Halo 4 console bundle. The best way to go about it would be to call PR or whoever your MS contact is and get the information about what's in the box and maybe ask them to send you some art of said special edition box and its contents. You shouldn't, however, be accepting a free LE console to do an unboxing because it's creates the impression of something being improper even if it's not your intent. If you must do an unboxing, buy it like everyone else. I'm sure big media companies have no problem expensing something like that if you are really hell-bent on doing an unboxing video.
 

beastmode

Member
It is my opinion that your list of "successful gaming sites" seems flawed, witin the context of this thread, save one.
They're examples of sites that some GAFers consider respectable. As opposed to Kotaku, which pretty much everyone is displeased with at the moment.

NervousCretin is saying that nothing can possibly satisfy us, that we should get used to Kotaku being as pitiful as it is since it couldn't survive otherwise. These notions are demonstrably false.
 
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