scar tissue
Banned
When minorities get more protection under the law what do you feel the majority loses?
In what world are women a minority?
When minorities get more protection under the law what do you feel the majority loses?
In what world are women a minority?
In the world where words don't mean what they are defined as.
so, our world?
You're operating from the perspective that there is an oppressor and an oppressed, when in reality it's a lot more muddled than that.This argument gets trotted out all the time in debates about social issues and it's always nonsense. Every system of oppression for one group results in corresponding privilege for another. Campaigning for the equal rights of the privileged is redundant as they have both equal treatment, and an unearned advantage. On the other hand, advocating for equal rights for the oppressed automatically pushes us towards equal rights for all because the rights of the privileged were never in jeopardy in the first place.
This argument gets trotted out all the time in debates about social issues and it's always nonsense. Every system of oppression for one group results in corresponding privilege for another. Campaigning for the equal rights of the privileged is redundant as they have both equal treatment, and an unearned advantage. On the other hand, advocating for equal rights for the oppressed automatically pushes us towards equal rights for all because the rights of the privileged were never in jeopardy in the first place.
Simple enumeration of equality may not be the answer. One teacher told journalist Peggy Orenstein that after learning that teachers paid more attention to boys than girls, she explained to the class henceforth she was going to call on both sexes exactly equally, and to make sure she did, she would hold the attendance roster in her hand. What happened next surprised her. "After two days the boys blew up" she told Orenstein. "They started complaining and saying that I was calling on the girls more than them. I showed them that it wasn't true and they had to back down. I kept on doing it, but for the boys, equality was hard to get used to; they perceived it as a big loss."
(Of course, equality is virtually always seen as a loss by the privileged group. If a teacher gives exactly equal time to heterosexuality and to homosexuality, to people of color as to white people, to women and to men, he or she is invariably going to be criticized as being biased in favor of the minority group. When one is used to being the center of attention all the time, being out of the limelight for a moment or even an hour can feel like complete rejection.)
Let's be clear. By "rape," I mean a sexual encounter without consent. Consent is saying yes. Yes, YES! This is the definition, in my experience, employed by today's rape crisis services. Their models for prevention education, however, fail to teach young people how to really articulate or receive consent. They instead focus on how to say and listen to "no." "No" is useful, undoubtedly, but it is at best incomplete. How can we hope to provide the tools for ending rape without simultaneously providing the tools for positive sexuality?
I get how enthusiastic consent can work well sober, but in cases where parties are intoxicated men and women making the correct interpretation of consent is still going to be a really big issue.
Banning alcohol or places where alcohol can be bought & consumed is no going to happen, ever.Which is why I mentioned earlier in the thread that working on reducing the locations and circumstances that these assaults and acquaintance rapes happen would be the best way to combat it
Banning alcohol or places where alcohol can be bought & consumed is no going to happen, ever.
In what world are women a minority?
Honestly I'm not sure that I totally buy into all of the Yes Means Yes stuff that Mumei quoted above. I mean, the basic tenets of working hard to prevent rape and to make sure that the general public is aware of the correct broader definition of rape I totally agree with. As well as making sure that acquaintance rape is treated as seriously as any other rape. However the efficacy of using enthusiastic consent as the best means to combat this I'm not as sure about. In many of the cases of acquaintance rape (I believe the number are like 75%, but don't quote me on that) one or often both of the parties is intoxicated with either alcohol or drugs. I get how enthusiastic consent can work well sober, but in cases where parties are intoxicated men and women making the correct interpretation of consent is still going to be a really big issue. It's just like driving a car, it doesn't matter how good of a driver you are sober, if you are intoxicated your ability to reason and comprehend is impaired. And the way that drunk driving is combated is not with some rule to follow while you are driving, but with the fear of punishment that makes you avoid the situation before you even get into the car intoxicated and the knowledge that you can't use "but I was drunk" as an excuse. Enthusiastic consent seem to my understanding (which is totally limited I'll admit) to rely and heat of the moment interpretation to work and I just can't see that happening in the current culture at some place like a college frat party. Which is why I mentioned earlier in the thread that working on reducing the locations and circumstances that these assaults and acquaintance rapes happen would be the best way to combat it as well as education so that victims / witnesses have the correct outlet to report these crimes safely and with the least amount of invasive process.
Is my point coming across ok? As I said I'm only passingly familiar with some of these topics.
Well the ban was not really what I was aiming for. My example earlier in the thread was that if say a college fraternity was continually having parties where women felt unsafe at, where people were continually passing out, where there was heavy peer pressure to drink I'd revoke the heck out of their fraternity charter. Don't wait for the rapes to happen, just nip the dangerous situations in the bud. Sure you have a right to drink, but you don't have a right to have a chartered fraternity or a dorm room that's creating a dangerous environment for women. If people / groups prove that they can't handle intoxication in a reasonable fashion then don't just turn a blind eye to what is happening.
Now obviously this will just push some of the behavior underground, but still knocking out how often and how easy these situations happen would be a pretty good start I would think. Don't give them the idea that this type of situation and behavior is expected of college kids and that nothing can be done about it.
SPE sympathizer!Damnit now SPE is banned, hope you guys are happy!
I will have to check that book out... eventually.I started reading Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power & A World Without Rape partially because of this topic; I have had it out from the library for a few weeks but hadn't gotten around to it yet. I'm finding a lot to like, and some stuff that I'm not so sure I agree with. And some things where I think it sounds a bit ridiculous, but as I read further I see that it is something I agree with.
Agree with it or not, what you're doing here is advocating a stance of men vs women, because you're implying that there is one group that doesn't need any more favors since they're already on top, which is painfully ignorant.
In what world are women a minority?
SPE finally got banned. That took way longer than I expected.
I feel like the lone guy arguing a dissenting or contrarian viewpoint always ends up banned in these topics.
I feel like the lone guy arguing a dissenting or contrarian viewpoint always ends up banned in these topics.
For what it's worth, SPE was not the lone guy arguing a dissenting viewpoint; there were plenty of people going against the grain and only two or three people were banned.
I feel like the lone guy arguing a dissenting or contrarian viewpoint always ends up banned in these topics.
It happens.
APF! Long time no see.
You probably don't remember me but whatever
Of course I do! It's good to see you
Where have you been?