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GAF, is Xenoblade getting snubbed?

duckroll said:
There are a ton of really crappy filler quests in every town, which aren't interesting to do, feel like a waste of time, and don't add anything to the town's story or have fun interactions with NPCs. At the same time, there are a number of quests which are really quite interesting in terms of how it fleshes out the setting and the relationships between NPCs in a town. But the way the quest system is designed, it requires the player to basically "grind" the crap filler quests to ever get enough "rep" in a town to take on the more interesting quests. I imagine that tons of players would bail out on the optional quests completely after a few of those generic Item Gathering and Monster Killing quests, and hence would miss out on the quests which are actually worth playing. That's not very good design.
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I agree, it's unfortunate that the game had so many crappy filler quests in there, and that they were required for the more interesting quests later on. It definitely discouraged me from completing quests until I figured out how the system worked in the long-term for the game. However, the vast majority of the filler quests get completed while playing through the game's main plot, so they rarely damaged my experience by forcing me to go grind out something I didn't care about.

As for the main narrative, the way events are paced, there a loooong periods of slow burn where nothing at all happens. It's not even like, just the story going slow, but rather many hours of gameplay can pass by without there being a story event simply because the characters are "travelling" from place to place. FFXII also had this problem, especially in the latter half of the game. There's a reason why the Pharos in FFXII is considered a really draggy and boring part of the game - because you just keep going through floor after floor and fighting one generic random monster boss after another without there being any developments in the story. A lot of Xenoblade is like that, and it definitely scratches the MMO itch, but as a single player RPG it can get boring at times.
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Can you name a particular period of the game where you felt this was the case? The main story wasn't always moving, I agree, but there was always something interesting going on in the world of Xenoblade. FFXII had nothing going on at all, in contrast. I feel like Xenoblade did a good job of making the game as much about the main narrative as it was about the general character interactions and getting to know them, so when the main story slowed down a bit, it wasn't something I felt grief about.

Juken said:
I agree that each character providing a different playstyle was one of the strengths of the game.

I just think the enemy AI while roaming the fields and when engaged in combat was too predictable and changed little from area to area or enemy to enemy. Battles weren't dynamic enough...you could just use your usual rotation unless you're fighting a boss or happened to aggro another roaming pack or two and have to adjust.
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Ah, well that's fair then. I do wish that there were more "superbosses" or enemies with really unique challenges, too. I liked all the unique stuff I had to deal with when facing against the superbosses. If they would have added another 15-20 superbosses I would have had so much fun fighting all of those at the end...

I just don't think it's the RPG to save the genre and appeal to a wide audience again. Maybe Monolith's next game will do it!
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Ah, well that it was definitely not. I'm cool with RPGs not appealing to a wide audience, though. That usually leads to bad things for a series...
 
Its funny that most of the me3 reviews, especially ign's, didn't even mention the awful ending.

Just confirms the sorry ass state of video game reviewing in a nutshell.

Why should these rewards from shit sites mean anything anymore?
 
Of All Trades said:
Xcom is probably right on the edge of genre confusion pushing it into the SRPG category, much like FTL.
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Eh, besides stats it doesn't seem to really have any other RPG elements. Xcom that is I haven't played FTL so can't comment on that one. For example it's story and characters are pretty much non-existent.

Which is fine for a TBS and might actually be a plus for XCOM in my book. As I don't need the developers trying and make me care about some character when I can get attached to my sniper with 70 kills and 25 mission under his belt just fine. XCOM is a damn fine TBS(I have it as one of my games of the year), but it would make a very shallow RPG.
 
Juken said:
I just don't think it's the RPG to save the genre and appeal to a wide audience again. Maybe Monolith's next game will do it!
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I don't think that is necessarily what people mean when they say that it's the savior of JRPG. They could be exaggerating or they meant that it would save this gen from having a lousy generation of jrpgs.(but there were definitely some highlights)
 
I would argue that Xenoblade is as good as any JRPG that's come out in a decade (CT re-release aside). It's absolutely good enough to "save the genre" from a quality perspective, except that it's on Wii and had a limited release.

It's getting snubbed, but it's not surprising. Just think about the volume of people that played ME3 vs the amount of people that played Xenoblade. You're going to be able to find more people that think a popular game is GOTY just because more of them have played it.

Also, the game is looooooooooooong. So there's that too.
 
duckroll said:
As for the main narrative, the way events are paced, there a loooong periods of slow burn where nothing at all happens. It's not even like, just the story going slow, but rather many hours of gameplay can pass by without there being a story event simply because the characters are "travelling" from place to place. FFXII also had this problem, especially in the latter half of the game. There's a reason why the Pharos in FFXII is considered a really draggy and boring part of the game - because you just keep going through floor after floor and fighting one generic random monster boss after another without there being any developments in the story. A lot of Xenoblade is like that, and it definitely scratches the MMO itch, but as a single player RPG it can get boring at times.
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Wha? I never felt like nothing was happening. The only part that felt remotely like it was dragging was
Mechonis
and that was mostly due to my inability to move on without exploring every nook and cranny first.
 
Karsticles said:
Can you name a particular period of the game where you felt this was the case? The main story wasn't always moving, I agree, but there was always something interesting going on in the world of Xenoblade. FFXII had nothing going on at all, in contrast. I feel like Xenoblade did a good job of making the game as much about the main narrative as it was about the general character interactions and getting to know them, so when the main story slowed down a bit, it wasn't something I felt grief about.
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I generally feel that the similarity is in how large some of the areas are, where it feels like a dungeon is going on for a bit too long for my liking. Xenosaga also had this problem, so it's something I'm pretty familiar with with regards to Monolithsoft's design of areas. I wish they made them smaller sometimes and more varied instead.

Some examples would be the point where you're heading towards the main capital. You go through several forests, dungeons, etc, deal with stuff in the furball village, go further up, navigate through various floating teleporter platforms, and eventually end up in the capital. The entire segment there was probably like 10 hours or more. Yes, there were story cutscenes, but there was also a lot of nothing happening, and pretty much all the bosses in that entire 10 hour period are nameless monsters and stuff. It's just not very engaging.

Another example would the the Mechonis parts at the end of the game. The interior dungeons are HUGE. At first it was kinda cool because of the scale, but soon it became clear that the design was really traditional. They would create 3-4 paths which are the same, but you have to go left first, activate something, then go right, activate a similar thing, open the final path, proceed on, fight a stronger boss variant of some Mechon enemy, repeat, etc. When a lot of the game is designed that way, it really feels like filler stuff just meant to make the game feel like it has more content. I dislike that.
 
Strife91 said:
I don't think that is necessarily what people mean when they say that it's the savior of JRPG. They could be exaggerating or they meant that it would save this gen from having a lousy generation of jrpgs.(but there were definitely some highlights)
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Yeah you're probably right about that.

I just want the JRPG audience to grow or stay large enough so that stuff with the scale and ambition of Xenoblade can exist. We're just lucky that Monolith is part of Nintendo because games like Xenoblade are really risky at the moment.
 
ari said:
Why should these rewards from shit sites mean anything anymore?
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I agree.

Instead we should be asking them for recommendations on which flavor of Doritos is the best.
I've grown weary of Nacho Cheese and am seeking alternatives.
 
duckroll said:
What about Alpha Protocol?
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Well now I feel like a moron for forgetting a game I routinely hold up as one of the best RPGs of the generation. I guess in my head I don't view it as a shooter at all though it technically is even if it's so horribly done.

Alright there was 1!
 
Maybe it's just not as good as you think it is?

I played it, liked it, but you can easily lose interest playing it, honestly.
 
By the way I don't believe Xenoblade's goal was to entice hoards of people; I always viewed it as a game which showed me that the JRPG can offer a somewhat different experience when compard to the "standard JRPG". This might come across as a silly statement, but that's how I felt while playing Xenoblade last year. I always liked JRPG's, but I can't deny the fact I did grow a bit tired of the typical settings featured in these types of games. I think that's why a lot of people (including me) appreciate Xenoblade.

At certain points it was pretty unconventional for the genre.
 
Maybe a little, but who didn't see it coming against Mass Effect 3? Personally it would've been my #1 RPG for 2012 if I didn't already play it last year (where it came in at #4 on my RPG list). At it's been getting nominated, especially when Nintendo markets these games so poorly. Maybe Nintendo will at least have a better marketing plan in place for Takahashi's next RPG because of the scores Xenoblade managed to pull off.
 
IMO Hype drives a lot in the gaming industry. Xenoblade didn't have a lot of hype surrounding it. Things that did have a lot of hype are naturally more present in people's minds.

Though I will say that it is a game with flaws. Already mentioned to death so won't bother. But of course, so is Mass Effect 3. That's where my first point comes in.
 
Almighty said:
Just out of curiosity do think Deus Ex was more shooter then RPG?
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HR was more shooter/action focused than the original. The original had more skills and more loot as well as more variety in the kinds of things you could pick up and/or hack. The much stronger level design helped create a much stronger sense of exploration and reward from exploring. Not to mention there are a lot of instances that can change a bit depending how you choose to handle things. It could definitely be viewed as a RPG.
 
duckroll said:
I generally feel that the similarity is in how large some of the areas are, where it feels like a dungeon is going on for a bit too long for my liking. Xenosaga also had this problem, so it's something I'm pretty familiar with with regards to Monolithsoft's design of areas. I wish they made them smaller sometimes and more varied instead.

Some examples would be the point where you're heading towards the main capital. You go through several forests, dungeons, etc, deal with stuff in the furball village, go further up, navigate through various floating teleporter platforms, and eventually end up in the capital. The entire segment there was probably like 10 hours or more. Yes, there were story cutscenes, but there was also a lot of nothing happening, and pretty much all the bosses in that entire 10 hour period are nameless monsters and stuff. It's just not very engaging.

Another example would the the
Mechonis
parts at the end of the game. The interior dungeons are HUGE. At first it was kinda cool because of the scale, but soon it became clear that the design was really traditional. They would create 3-4 paths which are the same, but you have to go left first, activate something, then go right, activate a similar thing, open the final path, proceed on, fight a stronger boss variant of some Mechon enemy, repeat, etc. When a lot of the game is designed that way, it really feels like filler stuff just meant to make the game feel like it has more content. I dislike that.
Click to expand...
I can see where you are coming from, then.

My own feeling is that Monolith was shooting for having an entire world before you. They didn't get to finish everything they wanted to do, but what we got were diverse areas with reasons to explore, and I like that. Could the dungeons have been more varied? Absolutely. Yet I have still never seen dungeons of this size that were as interesting as all this was. If I look at it as just another dungeon, it might not be impressive, but when I look at it as a part of the Xenoblade world and all its wonder, it puts a different spin on things. It had to be big because they were trying to put the whole world there for you to explore, and for the size they had, things were generally very interesting.

Though, aside from Valkyria Chronicles, I can't think of any JRPGs with interesting dungeon design in recent history (even going back to the PS1/2 era here). Maybe this was less of a problem for me because I never expect dungeons to be interesting. They tend to feel like something I have to slog through after a while to hear more of the story and enjoy more of the characters. It would be nice if every dungeon were like Alundra (playing through it right now for the first time), but how many RPGs approach anything remotely like that?

Regarding the journey to the capital, and the tower, I suppose I don't look at that as the next "goal" in the game. Part of the joy of any epic journey is what sidetracks you. Homer's Odyssey wouldn't be much of a story if Odysseus found a straight path home, haha. So when the game says "We need to do X at place A!", the things that occur between that claim and the moment you get there aren't padding or filler, they're what make the experience actually great. Unless the in-between stuff isn't fun or interesting, but I thought it was with Xenoblade (Nopon village very good!).
 
Sadist said:
By the way I don't believe Xenoblade's goal was to entice hoards of people; I always viewed it as a game which showed me that the JRPG can offer a somewhat different experience when compard to the "standard JRPG". This might come across as a silly statement, but that's how I felt while playing Xenoblade last year. I always liked JRPG's, but I can't deny the fact I did grow a bit tired of the typical settings featured in these types of games. I think that's why a lot of people (including me) appreciate Xenoblade.

At certain points it was pretty unconventional for the genre.
Click to expand...
They only intended for it to be an experiment.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=42900493&postcount=111
 
Derrick01 said:
HR was more shooter/action focused than the original. The original had more skills and more loot as well as more variety in the kinds of things you could pick up and/or hack. The much stronger level design helped create a much stronger sense of exploration and reward from exploring. Not to mention there are a lot of instances that can change a bit depending how you choose to handle things. It could definitely be viewed as a RPG.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I should of made it clear I was asking about the original. Anyway thanks for answering.

I was just wondering about your opinion on that game, because like Alpha Protocol it was one of the few(it might just be those two now that I think about it) RPG/Shooter hybrids that I personally thought were more RPG then shooter. Which probably explains why both of them are terrible shooters.
 
Green Scar said:
Oh maaaaaaaaaaan, that's depressing on a surprising number of levels.
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I think Japanese developers feeling as though they are behind Western developers simply because their games sell less is the worst thing that happened this generation, and a lot of bad things have happened. Japanese and Western games generally have very distinctive styles, and I strongly prefer the Japanese style (generally). Westerners buy western games more readily than Japanese games, and Japanese gamers buy Japanese games more readily than western games. It would be pretty ridiculous if Microsoft thought it was doing something "wrong" because of the Xbox 360's weak presence in Japan.

I wish Japanese developers would find reaffirmation in their own way of doing things. Creation is best when it comes from the powers of creative expression, and not when it's tailored to sell to a mass market. Platinum Games has become legendary in less than a generation because it's a Japanese developer that refuses to be anything other than what it is. Western elements in my Japanese games makes them less appealing to me. All of this is generally speaking, of course.
 
Takahashi is crazy, like some omnipotent being.

Xenoblade? OH THAT LITTLE THING? I guess its ok, if you liked that wait till we really try..... its totally gonna be better than Oblivion!
 
duckroll said:
Some examples would be the point where you're heading towards the main capital. You go through several forests, dungeons, etc, deal with stuff in the furball village, go further up, navigate through various floating teleporter platforms, and eventually end up in the capital. The entire segment there was probably like 10 hours or more. Yes, there were story cutscenes, but there was also a lot of nothing happening, and pretty much all the bosses in that entire 10 hour period are nameless monsters and stuff. It's just not very engaging.
Click to expand...

Huh?

-Reach Makna Forest.
-Run through forest until you meet Melia.
-Backtrack a little bit to find a key item and fight a small boss battle that introduces a new gameplay element and telethia.
-Save Melia, character development.
-Go to Frontier Village, meet Riki, character development.
-Fight telethia boss, telethia are very important and mysterious.
-Go back to Frontier village and warp to Eryth Sea.
-Capital is like 3 islands away from where you enter.

2 areas, no dungeons, 2 bosses which are important to plot development, 2 new characters, and new gameplay mechanics. A lot happened.
 
Tomat said:
...that is pretty incredible when you think about that statement.

It's fucking DIABLO. It didn't win anything. Damn Blizzard, you goofed.
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A Diablo clone (Torchlight 2) is winning more awards than a Diablo game itself. The bigger they are...
 
I can understand that the game has a staggered released date, but c'mon...Mass Effect 3 winning with Xenoblade on the nominate list is so full of WAT.

Dresden said:
The real joke is Dragon's Dogma not even getting mentioned sometimes, but that's the way these awards go.
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Plus this.
 
B.K. said:
Why? At least Takahashi also realizes it wasn't a very good game. Maybe he'll do a better job on the next one.
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Yeah, I don't think you need to like the game to understand why someone being so self-deprecating about their hard work can be seen as sad

especially when he's comparing it to the VAST WEALTH (read: fuck all amount) of totally bitchin' WRPGs
 
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