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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...

Karak

Member
It's an ambiguous term for sure. Honestly, I think the best I can do is call it something that a lot of people are involved with both in production and consumption.

Is it fair to assume that we all know what we're talking about when we say AAA game, though? I mean, it is sort of vague but I think everyone understands it to mean something. XBLA/PSN stuff is wonderful and one of the best things about this gen, but there's a certain value attached to the distinction between what these are and what AAA retail games are.

Maybe it's that I feel like I could be playing these games on a phone or tablet device? Whereas those AAA retail games are giving me my money's worth for a console. Deep down it might have something to do with that.

It could totally be me. Totally. But when someone says AAA. I think more often of XBLA/PSN than the 4-5 major titles each year. I don't even get than many XBLA games but for some odd reason I think of it as a "whole hearted 100% concentrated work) and many studios have like 2-3 games at one time. I don't know its probably a dumb explanation. But its how I see it in my head you know.

Your last paragraph makes a hell of a lot of sense though.
 

Boss Man

Member
Your last paragraph makes a hell of a lot of sense though.
I'm glad because it felt silly to type.

I didn't realize why XBLA games were being discussed, but given the context I think that statement is probably exactly what it comes down to. List wars have everything to do with that. So I guess the real answer is that downloadable games are an awesome thing that is happening but it seems like you can't use them in list wars (who cares though?).
 
Got drunk with a person from EA marketing last night

izKxQtGZky8ig.gif
 

jaypah

Member
I have no idea what this means.

another person with inside info (or not) that we shall never hear about (or will). Just another day at GAF these days. I remember when it was either "put up or shut up" with a ban attached. Now? Hell, there's like 20 insiders with their winking and nudging. Last week it was frustrating. Now I just stopped giving a shit. If he/she knows something (which they probably do) it'll come to light eventually.
 

Quazar

Member
another person with inside info (or not) that we shall never hear about (or will). Just another day at GAF these days. I remember when it was either "put up or shut up" with a ban attached. Now? Hell, there's like 20 insiders with their winking and nudging. Last week it was frustrating. Now I just stopped giving a shit. If he/she knows something (which they probably do) it'll come to light eventually.

Yep. I agree, this shit is craaaazy.
 
another person with inside info (or not) that we shall never hear about (or will). Just another day at GAF these days. I remember when it was either "put up or shut up" with a ban attached. Now? Hell, there's like 20 insiders with their winking and nudging. Last week it was frustrating. Now I just stopped giving a shit. If he/she knows something (which they probably do) it'll come to light eventually.

You have my sword.
 

Margalis

Banned
another person with inside info (or not) that we shall never hear about (or will). Just another day at GAF these days. I remember when it was either "put up or shut up" with a ban attached. Now? Hell, there's like 20 insiders with their winking and nudging. Last week it was frustrating. Now I just stopped giving a shit. If he/she knows something (which they probably do) it'll come to light eventually.

It's fairly obvious that most of these "insiders" have no real information of any kind.

I have more secret industry info than 9 out of 10 people in these threads who claim to know a guy.

Edit: Anyone in the development community knows all sorts of secret stuff. The people who claim to have insider info then can only put out the most vague contradictory nonsense must be mail room workers or something.
 
Any chance you can give a " fp16 for dummies" description and what it does for game development?

Fp16 is a data format they use per pixel during HDR. It means they are using 64bit for describing each pixel instead of the ordinary 32 (16 bit for each of the RGB channel and 16 for alpha, where it is regularly 8 for each of those 4 channels).

More bits per pixel means you can represent a larger set of colors, and that's because it allows you to have in the same scene all the range through whiter than white and blacker than black still having detail (compared to non-HDR rendering). One game that does this (but it does so by rendering two images and blending them into one HDR image) is Halo 3. If you tried the cinema mode you will notice that even on the brighter explosions you can still perfectly make out every detail of the image, while games that do this sort of bloom without HDR usually end up with a almost blank white screen.

Image samples:

Halo 3: http://imageshack.us/f/69/13082975fullcw6.jpg/ (See how in the same scene they have a hugely shadowed area that while very dark can still be seen in detail, and at the same time the bright area even though is super bright can still be seen with detail too. Without HDR the pixel format wouldn't have enough data to go all the way through both extremes, and it would clamp some colors after a certain point, meaning that all the bright area would be the same white and all the shadowed area would be the same black.

Oblivion: http://img.clubic.com/photo/00137474.jpg (Notice how everything that is bright is just plain white, they are probably not using any dynamic range adjusting so even thought the scene doesn't need to go through all the range of black -> white it still doesn't have enough information to provide detail on the bright areas)


For current gen hardware FP16 was very costly, so Ms designed a special mode for xenos, called FP10. It was still 32bit, but they increase the bits amount in the color channels by removing bits from alpha. It had it's drawbacks, but in most cases it provided a good enough and free "HDR" solution for 360 (Bungie called it MDR, as in medium dynamic range, and while it wasn't enough for going to black -> white in a single scene it had enough room for scenes that went gradually from one to another) . However i think that FP16 is nothing out of the ordinary for current GPUs, they probably already support even higher pixel formats.
 

Karak

Member
Fp16 is a data format they use per pixel during HDR. It means they are using 64bit for describing each pixel instead of the ordinary 32 (16 bit for each of the RGB channel and 16 for alpha, where it is regularly 8 for each of those 4 channels).

More bits per pixel means you can represent a larger set of colors, and that's because it allows you to have in the same scene all the range through whiter than white and blacker than black still having detail (compared to non-HDR rendering). One game that does this (but it does so by rendering two images and blending them into one HDR image) is Halo 3. If you tried the cinema mode you will notice that even on the brighter explosions you can still perfectly make out every detail of the image, while games that do this sort of bloom without HDR usually end up with a almost blank white screen.

Image samples:

Halo 3: http://imageshack.us/f/69/13082975fullcw6.jpg/ (See how in the same scene they have a hugely shadowed area that while very dark can still be seen in detail, and at the same time the bright area even though is super bright can still be seen with detail too. Without HDR the pixel format wouldn't have enough data to go all the way through both extremes, and it would clamp some colors after a certain point, meaning that all the bright area would be the same white and all the shadowed area would be the same black.

Oblivion: http://img.clubic.com/photo/00137474.jpg (Notice how everything that is bright is just plain white, they are probably not using any dynamic range adjusting so even thought the scene doesn't need to go through all the range of black -> white it still doesn't have enough information to provide detail on the bright areas)


For current gen hardware FP16 was very costly, so Ms designed a special mode for xenos, called FP10. It was still 32bit, but they increase the bits amount in the color channels by removing bits from alpha. It had it's drawbacks, but in most cases it provided a good enough and free "HDR" solution for 360 (Bungie called it MDR, as in medium dynamic range, and while it wasn't enough for going to black -> white in a single scene it had enough room for scenes that went gradually from one to another) . However i think that FP16 is nothing out of the ordinary for current GPUs, they probably already support even higher pixel formats.

Thanks! This is better than my earlier explanation.
 

coldfoot

Banned
Fp16 is a data format they use per pixel during HDR. It means they are using 64bit for describing each pixel instead of the ordinary 32 (16 bit for each of the RGB channel and 16 for alpha, where it is regularly 8 for each of those 4 channels).

More bits per pixel means you can represent a larger set of colors, and that's because it allows you to have in the same scene all the range through whiter than white and blacker than black still having detail (compared to non-HDR rendering). One game that does this (but it does so by rendering two images and blending them into one HDR image) is Halo 3. If you tried the cinema mode you will notice that even on the brighter explosions you can still perfectly make out every detail of the image, while games that do this sort of bloom without HDR usually end up with a almost blank white screen.

Image samples:

Halo 3: http://imageshack.us/f/69/13082975fullcw6.jpg/ (See how in the same scene they have a hugely shadowed area that while very dark can still be seen in detail, and at the same time the bright area even though is super bright can still be seen with detail too. Without HDR the pixel format wouldn't have enough data to go all the way through both extremes, and it would clamp some colors after a certain point, meaning that all the bright area would be the same white and all the shadowed area would be the same black.

Oblivion: http://img.clubic.com/photo/00137474.jpg (Notice how everything that is bright is just plain white, they are probably not using any dynamic range adjusting so even thought the scene doesn't need to go through all the range of black -> white it still doesn't have enough information to provide detail on the bright areas)


For current gen hardware FP16 was very costly, so Ms designed a special mode for xenos, called FP10. It was still 32bit, but they increase the bits amount in the color channels by removing bits from alpha. It had it's drawbacks, but in most cases it provided a good enough and free "HDR" solution for 360 (Bungie called it MDR, as in medium dynamic range, and while it wasn't enough for going to black -> white in a single scene it had enough room for scenes that went gradually from one to another) . However i think that FP16 is nothing out of the ordinary for current GPUs, they probably already support even higher pixel formats.

How does NAO32 compare to FP10 in terms of the representable dynamic range? Which one is the best for doing HDR with 32 bits per pixel? I know NAO32 has a decoding/encoding overhead.
 
How does NAO32 compare to FP10 in terms of the representable dynamic range? Which one is the best for doing HDR with 32 bits per pixel? I know NAO32 has a decoding/encoding overhead.

I have no idea, i never read much about NAO32... I do remember people saying it had issues with transparencies and that at some edges it would get the color wrong borking the AA. But it seemed a very cool and relatively cheap solution for this problem.
 

sangreal

Member
How does NAO32 compare to FP10 in terms of the representable dynamic range? Which one is the best for doing HDR with 32 bits per pixel? I know NAO32 has a decoding/encoding overhead.

what ever happened to nao/Nostromo? he was pretty active here bashing the 360/xenos back in 2005/6
 

Proelite

Member
Yep. I was close.

It is generally thought that video content items, such as rendered graphics in video games, are of higher quality when displayed at relatively high resolutions with relatively high refresh rates. However, when device hardware is strained by complicated rendering, refresh rates may suffer. While resolution may be sacrificed in order to maintain a desirable refresh rate, rendering at lower resolutions may result in an unfavorable viewing experience if the content appears noticeably degraded (e.g., pixelated). By contrast, other video content items, such as text overlays and graphical user interface (GUI) elements, are known to suffer quality degradation when rendered at lower resolutions.

SUMMARY

[0002] This Summary is provided to introduce a selection of concepts in a simplified form that are further described below in the Detailed Description. This Summary is not intended to identify key features or essential features of the claimed subject matter, nor is it intended to be used to limit the scope of the claimed subject matter. Furthermore, the claimed subject matter is not limited to implementations that solve any or all disadvantages noted in any part of this disclosure.

[0003] According to one aspect of this disclosure, a method of outputting a video stream is provided. The method includes retrieving from memory a first plane of display data having a first set of display parameters and post-processing the first plane of display data to adjust the first set of display parameters. The method further includes retrieving from memory a second plane of display data having a second set of display parameters and post-processing the second plane of display data independently of the first plane of display data. The method further includes blending the first plane of display data with the second plane of display data to form blended display data and outputting the blended display data.


Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110304713#ixzz2JcQBViQq
 

USC-fan

Banned
KB-Smoker?

USC-fan
aka Kbsmoker

lol

Further, the first plane may be retrieved in any suitable manner, such as by direct memory access (DMA). As an example, the DMA may retrieve front buffer contents from a main memory. As such, a system-on-a-chip (SoC) may be designed to deliver a favorable latency response to display DMA read and write requests. The memory requests may be issued over a dedicated memory management unit (MMU), or they may be interleaved over a port that is shared with the System GPU block requesters. The overhead of the GPU and SoC memory controllers may then be taken into account in the latency calculations in order to design a suitable amount of DMA read buffering and related latency hiding mechanisms. Display DMA requests may be address-based to main memory. All cacheable writes intended for the front buffers may optionally be flushed, either via use of streaming writes or via explicit cache flush instructions.

Read more: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110304713#ixzz2JcSwE7SR

Starting to all make sense...
 
Yep. I was close.

From the little you quoted that setup looks like it separates the scene in "threads" that can be executed in parallel. I wonder if that's where the dual gpu claims came from?

Edit: Yeah, i got that wrong, it's independent in the sense that each plane can have a different setup... The interesting part is that this isn't just about resolution, even the color format of each plane can be independently adjusted.

The patent also seems useful to decode video streams to different devices overlaying the planes independently (For instance, say that you are streaming the game to a tablet, and there you don't want to see the OS overlay on top of the game. The patent covers the scenario where durango can render the OS overlay on the main screen but not on the tablet screen).

Each plane can indeed be scaled differently, by apparently dedicated video scalers for each frame.

Edit 2: It's also useful for 3d rendering.
 

Karak

Member
It's that good?

If something is in a system it pretty much has to be proven to be worth the silicon especially HSA. So its going to be pretty good in inside.

I personally can envision some insane uses. But devs will use anything like this in their own unique ways.
 
Sounds interesting. I'd like to see it in action. Hopefully most consider 60Hz to be a "desirable refresh rate". Aim for 60 and let the dynamic resolution handle the rough spots?
 
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