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[BronsonLee]

As said, not bashing anyone, just interesting and surprised.

Then maybe you should read the thread and the article before calling the developers crappy at their jobs. Just a thought.

 

[Keikaku]

This thread...

Is there a word for a feeling that's a mixture of disgust, awe, fear and incredulity? Because that's totally what I'm feeling now.

 

[CuthbertAllgoodz]

This thread...

Is there a word for a feeling that's a mixture of disgust, awe, fear and incredulity? Because that's totally what I'm feeling now.

A mess!

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Then maybe you should read the thread and the article before calling the developers crappy at their jobs. Just a thought.

I never called them crappy, or that they don't do a good job, but that there will always be ways to make things easier and cheaper. In this case, those ways would definitely lead to a worse game, as in making hit-boxes defined by an algorithm which could break the game and make it awfully balanced.

No disrespect to anyone working on the game.

You absolutely, unquestionably called him a bad manager, and the fact that his response to "Maybe you're bad at your job that I know nothing about" wasn't "Maybe fuck right to death" shows that he has a lot more restraint than I do.

No need to be angry. At this point only thing I could do is go back and edit my posts, which I wont since that would be incredibly cowardly.

So all in all, I think you can definitely trim the fat off that 150k and make things smoother. Would not mean a better product though, could mean a worse product most definitely. I don't want to bash any manager and say that I know better.

What I would like to imply is that the industry as a whole, is incredibly obtuse and weighed down by ineffective tools and painstaking processes of making small things work, and sadly, these guys get to bite the bullet when the true budget-sheets get out.

Hopefully, things do get better and more effective.

 

[Camilos]

$4,000 for voice recording?

I've recorded decent sounding albums with my band (12 songs) for $2,000. Not in the US, of course, but still, that is just an insane price. Here you can find excellent studios that charge no more that $60/hour.

I once worked for a company that had a call center. The voice on the call system had to be changed from time to time. I worked directly with the company did the voice recording. The last time I worked with them, we had them record 5 sentences in English and French. So 10 in all. The final invoice was 2800$. So basically 280$ per sentence.

So 4000$ for voice recording a full game is a pretty darn good deal.

 

[Ravidrath]

This thread...

Is there a word for a feeling that's a mixture of disgust, awe, fear and incredulity? Because that's totally what I'm feeling now.

NeoGAF.

I never called them crappy, or that they don't do a good job, but that there will always be ways to make things easier and cheaper.

So all in all, I think you can definitely trim the fat off that 150k and make things smoother. Would not mean a better product though, could mean a worse product most definitely. I don't want to bash any manager and say that I know better.

What I would like to imply is that the industry as a whole, is incredibly obtuse and weighed down by ineffective tools and painstaking processes of making small things work, and sadly, these guys get to bite the bullet when the true budget-sheets get out.

Hopefully, things do get better and more effective.

You have no basis for comparison, but still say we could be doing better?

Why do you think you're in any position to judge our costs, or determine that we have any "fat" at all?

Hell, not just us, but how about the industry as a whole?


And do you not get that we are working for near minimum wage? In a highly technical field with compensation that's well above average for the general populace? And no benefits? Your english suggests that maybe you aren't American, so maybe you don't understand that we don't get healthcare.

We're making huge sacrifices to keep this game going and the team together, you're telling us that we're not doing well enough. And your justification for that is because you have a feeling, with literally zero grounding in reality.


Anyway, if can manage to stifle your arrogance and presumption long enough to pass a job interview, please report back and tell us how things are. Because I expect your tune will have changed, and I hope you'll be broken and humbled enough to eat some crow.

 

[dLMN8R]

This thread...

Is there a word for a feeling that's a mixture of disgust, awe, fear and incredulity? Because that's totally what I'm feeling now.

NeoGAF.

dammit!

 

[Haunted]

This thread is clearly evidence that this is a conversation that really needed to happen.

...But it still makes me sad that being honest spawned what may be the worst thread on GAF.

Wonder why more devs don't post openly here? You're looking at it.

I fully expect people to be ignorant of how this stuff works, which is why I provided the breakdown I did. It's one thing not to believe me, but I'm really confused why people are doubting Seth Killian and David Lang?

This is not a bad thread, because even if you've got people doubting those numbers out of ignorance, it is educational, for them (once they come around and accept the truth) and especially for others. It also provides a better frame of reference for future discussions, so I can't see how this is nothing but a good thread.


Personal anecdote time: the smallest budget of a game I've worked on was 200k Euros and that was a cheapo edutainment language learning game for third-to-fifth graders on the DS. And those 200k didn't even include the office overhead.

 

[Keikaku]

I never called them crappy, or that they don't do a good job, but that there will always be ways to make things easier and cheaper. In this case, those ways would definitely lead to a worse game, as in making hit-boxes defined by an algorithm which could break the game and make it awfully balanced.

No disrespect to anyone working on the game.



No need to be angry. At this point only thing I could do is go back and edit my posts, which I wont since that would be incredibly cowardly.

So all in all, I think you can definitely trim the fat off that 150k and make things smoother. Would not mean a better product though, could mean a worse product most definitely. I don't want to bash any manager and say that I know better.

What I would like to imply is that the industry as a whole, is incredibly obtuse and weighed down by ineffective tools and painstaking processes of making small things work, and sadly, these guys get to bite the bullet when the true budget-sheets get out.

Hopefully, things do get better and more effective.

You stated above that you want to get into the industry but have no experience in it. Even when the costs and the reasons for the costs have been outlined by numerous people (especially Noogy and RagingSpaniard) in the previous pages of this thread and in incredible detail, you still maintain that you think that the industry is obtuse and ineffective in it's approach.

You also say that you don't want to "want to bash any manager and say that I know better" and then say exactly the opposite with "What I would like to imply is that the industry as a whole, is incredibly obtuse and weighed down by ineffective tools and painstaking processes of making small things work".

What tools? You never specify.
What processes? You don't know.

You just know that, in your heart of hearts, everybody is working inefficiently and that you know this but no one else does. Presumably because they're poor at managing their work.

Let's not forget that your sole contribution to how things should be less bloated is that people should record sound in their bedrooms.

You're off to a great start.

 

[Wyndstryker]

What I would like to imply is that the industry as a whole, is incredibly obtuse and weighed down by ineffective tools and painstaking processes of making small things work, and sadly, these guys get to bite the bullet when the true budget-sheets get out.

Hopefully, things do get better and more effective.

Having worked for a publisher I fully believe this is the biggest problem in the industry. When new consoles come out and everyone says "More power, devs can do better" mentality many people throw around, but the reality is far from that. The actual core tools and methods to make games barely changed over the years and that is the real development bottleneck in both time and money is. API's and SDK's, photoshop and zbrush mean nothing when you still need people to create and process thousands of art assets or browse through millions of lines of code to debug.

 

[beril]

I mean, we don't have any money. That's pretty indie, right?

We don't have an office, and are all working from home. That's totally indie.


Actually, the best thing I've been able to come up with that distinguishes and indie studio from an independent studio is whether or not they have dedicated IT staff.

While I did come up with this at the bar with one of the Skulls of the Shogun programmers, it basically boils down to this: if you need full-time staff to maintain the company infrastructure, you're not longer small enough to be "indie."

Eh, wouldn't the most obvious definition be whether or not you have publisher funding. Which I guess would mean you're indie now, but not during the game's production.

 

[demidar]

NeoGAF.

Goddamn beast mode Ravi.

 

[Ravidrath]

Eh, wouldn't the most obvious definition be whether or not you have publisher funding. Which I guess would mean you're indie now, but not during the game's production.

Capybara is the very definition of indie, and they get publisher funding?

Also, they don't have an IT guy.


Oh, supporting evidence for us not being indie: no one has a tattoo, and Mike's head is only shaved because he did it for breast cancer.

 

[IHaveCandy]

This thread is clearly evidence that this is a conversation that really needed to happen.

...But it still makes me sad that being honest spawned what may be the worst thread on GAF.

Wonder why more devs don't post openly here? You're looking at it.

I fully expect people to be ignorant of how this stuff works, which is why I provided the breakdown I did. It's one thing not to believe me, but I'm really confused why people are doubting Seth Killian and David Lang?




These are the same people that helped us out with hitboxes at Reverge. They're hand-picked friends of Mike's, and fighting game players themselves. They do it in their free time over the course of a few weeks while Mike implements the characters.

Hitboxes are an important element of the design, and really time-consuming, because you need to precisely tune them on 1500 frames of animation. If Mike had to do this himself it would make it hard to do the stuff only he can do, which is implementing and balancing the character, and probably significantly increase the development time of the character.

What people don't seem to understand is that you use contractors to save money by eliminating bottlenecks. Because Mike is free to focus on the things only he can do, that is time we don't have to worry about paying the rest of the staff.



Yeah, no - these are our actual costs.

There is virtually no overhead in those figures, because we don't have an office, no one is getting health benefits, and everyone is using their own computers. We're all working from home, tracking the project online. And during the development of the game, Mike and the artists frequently worked 80-100 hour weeks.

Some are necessarily estimates, but they're educated ones. For example, it's impossible to know what testing will actually cost, and I budgeted about half of what we spent testing the first patch. And I'm honestly concerned that it's not going to be enough.

In meetings people that actually know what they're talking about say that we are incredibly cheap and efficient. Out of the 100s of animations we made for Skullgirls, only 3-4 went unused. And, as RagingSpaniard can unfortunately attest, we pay our animation contractors very little - about half or less of what some other studios do, and I wish we could afford to pay more.

And, to the people saying "just test it yourselves" - that is not how reality works. We have to pay Konami's QA department test the patch for us so we can submit it and, hopefully, get it through on the first try.

The rewards are budgeted for what we perceive could be the "worst case scenario," like if we funded it entirely through some of the higher tiers with a higher cost of goods for the rewards.




It's clearly stated in the Indiegogo campaign - the budget for the core game was $1.7M, and the cost for individual characters was between $200-250k at more normal (but still below industry average) salaries.

Also, that actually only really covered development of 7 characters, because Filia was already basically completed when we signed the project with Autumn games.

I get that not every character has the same proportions, but I always feel that hitboxes should be the same for all characters. I don't really care if it looks strange that technically an attack is too high to hit a shorter character. I want all characters to have the same vulnerabilities to attacks.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Let's not forget that your sole contribution to how things should be less bloated is that people should record sound in their bedrooms.

You're off to a great start.

If budget is a concern, then maybe yes, there are ways of doing things really DIY.

You stated above that you want to get into the industry but have no experience in it. Even when the costs and the reasons for the costs have been outlined by numerous people (especially Noogy and RagingSpaniard) in the previous pages of this thread and in incredible detail, you still maintain that you think that the industry is obtuse and ineffective in it's approach.

You also say that you don't want to "want to bash any manager and say that I know better" and then say exactly the opposite with "What I would like to imply is that the industry as a whole, is incredibly obtuse and weighed down by ineffective tools and painstaking processes of making small things work".

What tools? You never specify.
What processes? You don't know.

Coding can be a slow process, animation can be a slow process, modelling can be an incredibly slow process.

Maybe a tool that makes it easier to create code which works more directly without the need to worry about it glitching in the most absurd ways possible? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to create a level with their hands and fingers, laying out textures based on the most simple cells and creating natural objects on random so they are all unique? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to sculpt a model with their hands?

And I said it could be because of bad management, because if they go online and talk about how they don't spend money on an office, or can't pay health insurance, then that sounds like something's not working the way it should, and that they are suffering because of it. If they aren't and if they are happy with their life's work, then who the fuck am I to be concerned about?

And maybe it's just because I'm a generally sarcastic guy, but the whole post about recording in a bedroom, was not dead-serious about how that's the way developers should do it. More a fun-fact that Supergiant Games, managed to create all of that amazing dialogue, in a bedroom with towels.

 

[Wyndstryker]

I get that not every character has the same proportions, but I always feel that hitboxes should be the same for all characters. I don't really care if it looks strange that technically an attack is too high to hit a shorter character. I want all characters to have the same vulnerabilities to attacks.

Problem with that is that not all characters look the same and thus will end up looking different at the sprite level.

Should a person get hit on their because they have a scarf flailing around? No. But assume if that scarf was a hitbox and every character had the same hitbox then a skeleton will get hit from 2 feet away.

 

[GuardianE]

I get that not every character has the same proportions, but I always feel that hitboxes should be the same for all characters. I don't really care if it looks strange that technically an attack is too high to hit a shorter character. I want all characters to have the same vulnerabilities to attacks.

What? This is a preposterous proposition. Allowing moves to hit all crouching opponents is one thing. Homogenizing hurtboxes is ridiculous.

 

[Devolution]

It's always amusing how people think simple artwork takes no time what so ever. No. Regardless of what you're making you have a couple people to answer to, all of those people have opinions, you have to redraw concepts over and over. Edit those concepts based on critique. Show them again. Rinse. Repeat. And these aren't even signed off environmental, character and item assets. Once you get the okay on the concepts, designs and art direction, you draw even more.

 

[joe2187]

I get that not every character has the same proportions, but I always feel that hitboxes should be the same for all characters. I don't really care if it looks strange that technically an attack is too high to hit a shorter character. I want all characters to have the same vulnerabilities to attacks.

They already made that game...and it's coming to consoles this spring!

 

[IHaveCandy]

Problem with that is that not all characters look the same and thus will end up looking different at the sprite level.

Should a person get hit because they have a scarf flailing around? No. But if you use that same hitbox then a skeleton will get hit from 2 feet away.

Well, like I said, the hitbox should be the same for all characters. If a character has a scarf that floats outside of that standard hitbox, it doesn't get detected as a hit. I'm not sure you and I are meaning the same thing here. I'm saying if you have a really fat character and a really skinny character, they should have identical hitboxes. If that means you end up seeing attacks clipping through the fat character that don't hit and attacks that look to slightly whiff the skinny characture but do hit, so be it. Just hide it with some hit effect around the area. I'd prefer balance over realism in this aspect.

 

[Raging Spaniard]

If budget is a concern, then maybe yes, there are ways of doing things really DIY.



Coding can be a slow process, animation can be a slow process, modelling can be an incredibly slow process.

Maybe a tool that makes it easier to create code which works more directly without the need to worry about it glitching in the most absurd ways possible? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to create a level with their hands and fingers, laying out textures based on the most simple cells and creating natural objects on random so they are all unique? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to sculpt a model with their hands?

And I said it could be because of bad management, because if they go online and talk about how they don't spend money on an office, or can't pay health insurance, then that sounds like something's not working the way it should, and that they are suffering because of it. If they aren't and if they are happy with their life's work, then who the fuck am I to be concerned about?

And maybe it's just because I'm a generally sarcastic guy, but the whole post about recording in a bedroom, was not dead-serious about how that's the way developers should do it. More a fun-fact that Supergiant Games, managed to create all of that amazing dialogue, in a bedroom with towels.

Lets say you make those tools, how are you getting them made? Do you know how many engineers and producers you need? How much money do you need? How much time its gonna take and how you manage being unable to work on the game while those tools are being developed?

How do you know they dont already have those tools to begin with? How do you know they dont already have processes in place that allows them to save time and money? Why do you think fighting games are the last thing studios want to make?

 

[Roto13]

Maybe a tool that makes it easier to create code which works more directly without the need to worry about it glitching in the most absurd ways possible? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to create a level with their hands and fingers, laying out textures based on the most simple cells and creating natural objects on random so they are all unique? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to sculpt a model with their hands?

Maybe a magic lamp with a game-creating genie inside?

 

[Fudgepuppy]

You have no basis for comparison, but still say we could be doing better?

Why do you think you're in any position to judge our costs, or determine that we have any "fat" at all?

Hell, not just us, but how about the industry as a whole?

And do you not get that we are working for near minimum wage? In a highly technical field with compensation that's well above average for the general populace? And no benefits? Your english suggests that maybe you aren't American, so maybe you don't understand that we don't get healthcare.

We're making huge sacrifices to keep this game going and the team together, you're telling us that we're not doing well enough. And your justification for that is because you have a feeling, with literally zero grounding in reality.

Anyway, if can manage to stifle your arrogance and presumption long enough to pass a job interview, please report back and tell us how things are. Because I expect your tune will have changed, and I hope you'll be broken and humbled enough to eat some crow.

You could be saying "Fuck it" and release the game incomplete, that would be one way of trimming the fat. You could be saying "Fuck it" to your employees and pay them squat, that would be trimming the fat. etc. etc.

As you can see, all above notions are awful.

But you could be firing everyone and create an awful piece of DLC that you and maybe one other guy made? No, I'm not suggesting that you should, but that is one way of trimming the fat.

My point is, you can always trim fat. It will make the product suffer, and that's why you shouldn't listen or bother with what the fuck I'm saying.

Seriously, I'm an idiot from Sweden, why should it matter what I'm thinking or saying on the fucking internet?

 

[GuardianE]

Well, like I said, the hitbox should be the same for all characters. If a character has a scarf that floats outside of that standard hitbox, it doesn't get detected as a hit. I'm not sure you and I are meaning the same thing here. I'm saying if you have a really fat character and a really skinny character, they should have identical hitboxes. If that means you end up seeing attacks clipping through the fat character that don't hit and attacks that look to slightly whiff the skinny characture but do hit, so be it. Just hide it with some hit effect around the area. I'd prefer balance over realism in this aspect.

That's not balance. How the hell are you going to know the range of your normal when your fist goes inside a fat guy's sprite and completely whiffs?

Large hurtboxes exist FOR balance purposes. It's one of the disadvantages of having a larger, and presumably more powerful character with more health. This isn't Oddjob in Goldeneye, where every character is the same except for their height.

 

[IHaveCandy]

What? This is a preposterous proposition. Allowing moves to hit all crouching opponents is one thing. Homogenizing hurtboxes is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about crouched characters. I said shorter character. If one character is 7" and the other is 4 ft, I don't want the 7 ft character's high attacks to whiff the 4 ft character. Give them the same hitbox, even if the hitbox doesn't perfectly match the character model.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Well, like I said, the hitbox should be the same for all characters. If a character has a scarf that floats outside of that standard hitbox, it doesn't get detected as a hit. I'm not sure you and I are meaning the same thing here. I'm saying if you have a really fat character and a really skinny character, they should have identical hitboxes. If that means you end up seeing attacks clipping through the fat character that don't hit and attacks that look to slightly whiff the skinny characture but do hit, so be it. Just hide it with some hit effect around the area. I'd prefer balance over realism in this aspect.

However in the concept of them having the same sprite draws and position, it is passable. But a fighting game is far different. Each character attacks differently and move differently, which in turn affect the hitbox. Ken and Ryu would probably have very similar hit boxes given near identical sprites and motion. But Zangief and Dhalsim have wildly different hit boxes just from their vastly different fighting styles.

In the end you're doing hitboxes manually.

 

[Ravidrath]

Coding can be a slow process, animation can be a slow process, modelling can be an incredibly slow process.

Maybe a tool that makes it easier to create code which works more directly without the need to worry about it glitching in the most absurd ways possible? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to create a level with their hands and fingers, laying out textures based on the most simple cells and creating natural objects on random so they are all unique? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to sculpt a model with their hands?

And I said it could be because of bad management, because if they go online and talk about how they don't spend money on an office, or can't pay health insurance, then that sounds like something's not working the way it should, and that they are suffering because of it. If they aren't and if they are happy with their life's work, then who the fuck am I to be concerned about?

And maybe it's just because I'm a generally sarcastic guy, but the whole post about recording in a bedroom, was not dead-serious about how that's the way developers should do it. More a fun-fact that Supergiant Games, managed to create all of that amazing dialogue, in a bedroom with towels.

OK, now I just want you to record your job interviews and put them on YouTube, because they will be hilarious.

If these sorts of tools you're talking about were even possible, don't you think Microsoft or someone would have them? You know, someone with the money to actually take the time to make stuff like that?

Tools are incredibly expensive to make, and because they don't directly result in cost savings in a single project, are usually not budgeted for at all unless you're a big company, because publishers don't want to pay for tool development.


Again, what do you think is not working the way it should? And what expertise are you basing this feeling on?

And everything you described in your last post is not "fat." You're saying we could get the number down if we cut muscle.


I'm going to stop singling out and responding to you, and I think everyone should, too. Because you seem to legitimately believe that your ideas and opinions are valid, and until reality forcibly and painfully disabuses you of that notion, you are literally unreachable and unfixable. And I hope a mod sees this and gives you that tag.

 

[RiccochetJ]

Maybe a tool that makes it easier to create code which works more directly without the need to worry about it glitching in the most absurd ways possible? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to create a level with their hands and fingers, laying out textures based on the most simple cells and creating natural objects on random so they are all unique? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to sculpt a model with their hands?

You realize that these tools you speak of (if they even exist) generally come with steep licensing costs? Go take a look at how much it costs to license UE3 for a commercial game.

 

[Manbig]

I get that not every character has the same proportions, but I always feel that hitboxes should be the same for all characters. I don't really care if it looks strange that technically an attack is too high to hit a shorter character. I want all characters to have the same vulnerabilities to attacks.

That would be a very boring fighting game then. Character diversity requires certain advantages and weaknesses. The hitboxes are the very thing that determines how this plays out. Some characters will have better anti air normals than others. Some might have better poke range than others. If they're all regulated to being the exact same, then you might as well go play Checkers.

 

[IHaveCandy]

That's not balance. How the hell are you going to know the range of your normal when your fist goes inside a fat guy's sprite and completely whiffs?

That's better than having bigger characters who are ridiculously vulnerable to attacks and smaller characters who can simply dodge attacks due to their small size. A little bit of clipping isn't a big deal. Obviously, you wouldn't want it to look like your character is punching 8 inches into their gut with no effect.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

Lets say you make those tools, how are you getting them made? Do you know how many engineers and producers you need? How much money do you need? How much time its gonna take and how you manage being unable to work on the game while those tools are being developed?

How do you know they dont already have those tools to begin with? How do you know they dont already have processes in place that allows them to save time and money? Why do you think fighting games are the last thing studios want to make?

Well, the comment about the tools is not really relegated to these guys making Skullgirls.

I'm just saying that the industry is a lot more ineffective than it could be, and that there should be more tools, which should be developed by high-end engineers.

Maybe a magic lamp with a game-creating genie inside?

Well you won't make any progress with that attittude.

Photoshop is pretty mindblowing if you go back 25 years, and definitely a result of people saying image-editing is too slow and therefore craving a more advanced one.

 

[GuardianE]

That's better than having bigger characters who are ridiculously vulnerable to attacks and smaller characters who can simply dodge attacks due to their small size. A little bit of clipping isn't a big deal. Obviously, you wouldn't want it to look like your character is punching 8 inches into their gut with no effect.

I'll repeat myself:

Large hurtboxes exist FOR balance purposes. It's one of the disadvantages of having a larger, and presumably more powerful character with more health. This isn't Oddjob in Goldeneye, where every character is the same except for their height. Smaller characters generally have less health as well.

You probably don't play a lot of fighting games, but I assure you that this is not as good an idea as it sounds. What you're suggesting actually breaks balance.

 

[IHaveCandy]

However in the concept of them having the same sprite draws and position, it is passable. But a fighting game is far different. Each character attacks differently and move differently, which in turn affect the hitbox. Ken and Ryu would probably have very similar hit boxes given near identical sprites and motion. But Zangief and Dhalsim have wildly different hit boxes just from their vastly different fighting styles.

In the end you're doing hitboxes manually.

True, some hitboxes will still need to be customized due to unique attacks. I'd say in a game like SF, you could share hitboxes with similar moves. Long reaching dive kicks should have the same hitboxes. But if a character has a dive kick that acts very differently, perhaps more like a dive knee, it should have a different hitbox.

 

[caffeware]

...

 

[Chavelo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL43_RTo4BM

This is me right now.... Well, was when I read the IQ-reducing post about fucking MUGEN of all things. But mostly for a good amount of this thread, too.

Also, a big "FUCK YOU" to the guy that said that Twitter is a full of "degenerate morons".

You have a fucking brain slug sucking on Fry's head as an avatar. You do the fucking math, kid.

 

[joe2187]

Seriously, I'm an idiot from Sweden, why should it matter what I'm thinking or saying on the fucking internet?

Then honestly...you should stop saying anything.

 

[Beast Legacy]

Well, like I said, the hitbox should be the same for all characters. If a character has a scarf that floats outside of that standard hitbox, it doesn't get detected as a hit. I'm not sure you and I are meaning the same thing here. I'm saying if you have a really fat character and a really skinny character, they should have identical hitboxes. If that means you end up seeing attacks clipping through the fat character that don't hit and attacks that look to slightly whiff the skinny characture but do hit, so be it. Just hide it with some hit effect around the area. I'd prefer balance over realism in this aspect.

What are you talking about? I didn't say anything about crouched characters. I said shorter character. If one character is 7" and the other is 4 ft, I don't want the 7 ft character's high attacks to whiff the 4 ft character. Give them the same hitbox, even if the hitbox doesn't perfectly match the character model.

Are you confusing hitboxes with hurtboxes?

 

[Raging Spaniard]

Well, the comment about the tools is not really relegated to these guys making Skullgirls.

I'm just saying that the industry is a lot more ineffective than it could be, and that there should be more tools, which should be developed by high-end engineers.



Well you won't make any progress with that attittude.

Photoshop is pretty mindblowing if you go back 25 years, and definitely a result of people saying image-editing is too slow and therefore craving a more advanced one.

Listen, everybody wants better tools, but theyre either really expensive to make OR really expensive to buy .. and at the end of the day theres only so much a tool can do. A script will make resizing, saving and renaming files easy yes but it CANT DRAW THE CHARACTERS, it CANT VOICE THE GAME, it CANT BALANCE THE GAME, it CANT DO PR, etc etc.

 

[Roto13]

Well you won't make any progress with that attittude.

Photoshop is pretty mindblowing if you go back 25 years, and definitely a result of people saying image-editing is too slow and therefore craving a more advanced one.

So basically:

1) Have the novel idea to somehow have the ability to do more work with less effort.
2) ???????
3) Revolutionize game development.

 

[Kageshinzo]

Seriously, I'm an idiot from Sweden, why should it matter what I'm thinking or saying on the fucking internet?

Because you were just adding useless noise to the discussion and in a manner that was disrespectful. You could've done what I did and silently absorb all the useful information from people in the industry (especially since you said you'd like to break into it) but no, you had to open your mouth and announce to the world your ignorance of the matter at hand.

 

[GuardianE]

So basically:

1) Have the novel idea to somehow have the ability to do more work with less effort.
2) ???????
3) Revolutionize game development.

He's an "idea" man. Big picture. Can't be held down by the little things, like "how".

 

[IHaveCandy]

I'll repeat myself:

Large hurtboxes exist FOR balance purposes. It's one of the disadvantages of having a larger, and presumably more powerful character with more health. This isn't Oddjob in Goldeneye, where every character is the same except for their height. Smaller characters generally have less health as well.

You probably don't play a lot of fighting games, but I assure you that this is not as good an idea as it sounds.

I play plenty of fighting games, and it's been one of my bigger complaints with fighting games. For example, Kuma has a bigger hitbox than most characters in Tekken. This causes him to get hit by moves. For example, Bruce's b2 is a mid attack that is quite strong. When Kuma is laying on the ground idle, it only hits Kuma/Panda. There is no reason for this to be. It isn't balance. It's just an unrealized consequence to him having a larger hitbox. Another Tekken example is that all female characters have a slightly smaller hitbox. This causes certain combos to only work on males. How is that balance? Male characters don't have any sort of universal strength over female.

 

[Roubjon]

That's better than having bigger characters who are ridiculously vulnerable to attacks and smaller characters who can simply dodge attacks due to their small size. A little bit of clipping isn't a big deal. Obviously, you wouldn't want it to look like your character is punching 8 inches into their gut with no effect.

Having big characters and small characters gives a fighting game more diversity. And if developers choose to have large and small characters, then they have without a doubt took that into account regarding character balance.

 

[voodoopanda]

Different sized hurtboxes are part of the balance. Zangief is bigger, so he's easier to hit, which makes it harder for him to get close. So if he does get close, he does insane damage. He also has more health so he can get hit more without it being as big a deal. Likewise, a smaller hurtbox on a character can mean they can get close easier and therefore do less damage, and because they're harder to hit they might have less health so getting hit costs more. If both characters had the same hurtbox that balancing dynamic wouldn't be available.

 

[Wyndstryker]

I play plenty of fighting games, and it's been one of my bigger complaints with fighting games. For example, Kuma has a bigger hitbox than most characters in Tekken. This causes him to get hit by moves. For example, Bruce's b2 is a mid attack that is quite strong. When Kuma is laying on the ground idle, it only hits Kuma/Panda. There is no reason for this to be. It isn't balanced. It's just an unrealized consequence to him having a larger hitbox. Another Tekken example is that all female characters have a slightly smaller hitbox. This causes certain combos to only work on males. How is that balance? Male characters don't have any sort of universal strength over female.

Thats far closer a balance issue and not a hitbox/hurtbox issue.

 

[GuardianE]

I play plenty of fighting games, and it's been one of my bigger complaints with fighting games. For example, Kuma has a bigger hitbox than most characters in Tekken. This causes him to get hit by moves. For example, Bruce's b2 is a mid attack that is quite strong. When Kuma is laying on the ground idle, it only hits Kuma/Panda. There is no reason for this to be. It isn't balanced. It's just an unrealized consequence to him having a larger hitbox. Another Tekken example is that all female characters have a slightly smaller hitbox. This causes certain combos to only work on males. How is that balance? Male characters don't have any sort of universal strength over female.

Maybe this is because I'm coming from a 2D fighter background, but looking at Kuma in SFxT, his head doesn't have a hurtbox in hunting stance. Exactly what you're proposing... and guess what? It made everyone furious because your kicks would whiff clean through his head.

Generally speaking, male characters deal more damage than female characters. That's not a hard and fast rule, but it's certainly a common trope in fighting games.

I think ultimately what you're proposing is a change to certain move properties vs. actually homogenizing hurtboxes.

 

[Keikaku]

If budget is a concern, then maybe yes, there are ways of doing things really DIY.



Coding can be a slow process, animation can be a slow process, modelling can be an incredibly slow process.

Maybe a tool that makes it easier to create code which works more directly without the need to worry about it glitching in the most absurd ways possible? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to create a level with their hands and fingers, laying out textures based on the most simple cells and creating natural objects on random so they are all unique? Maybe a tool that allows anyone to sculpt a model with their hands?

And I said it could be because of bad management, because if they go online and talk about how they don't spend money on an office, or can't pay health insurance, then that sounds like something's not working the way it should, and that they are suffering because of it. If they aren't and if they are happy with their life's work, then who the fuck am I to be concerned about?

And maybe it's just because I'm a generally sarcastic guy, but the whole post about recording in a bedroom, was not dead-serious about how that's the way developers should do it. More a fun-fact that Supergiant Games, managed to create all of that amazing dialogue, in a bedroom with towels.

Ok, so you're completely out of touch with reality. I guess I'll give it one more try.

You're proposing an automated process/tool to create code that works more directly with....what? Do you know why code glitches occur? It's not because there isn't a tool to prevent glitches or catch possible bugs. Every IDE I've ever seen or used has wonderful processes that point out potential errors at every available opportunity on compile or before. Most errors are however, unforseen. That's what makes them errors. Automated processes can help with some of that but they can't catch all of it. So long as you have human devs, you will have errors-the best you can hope for is that none of them make it to the end consumer.

Plenty of level editors are drag and drop but that doesn't always work for every type of game. The game I'm currently working on has an extremely easy-to-use and robust level editor but ease of use doesn't change the fact that levels still have to be, you know, designed. You make a level, try it out and then iterate on it. It takes tens or hundreds or thousands of iterations to make it perfect. You think the first level of Mario would have been easier to make if the level editor had been better? Really?

I can't imagine what advantages a scultping tool that you could "use with your hands" would provide over Zbrush or even what sort of input devices for the actual artist you'd have to use. How would the computer recognize your inputs? What program would you use to interface with it? Who makes this program? What's the pipeline to get this physical sculpture into a digital medium?

Automated tools aren't some magical solution that you can just get made. Believe it or not, there is serious iteration and evolution in the games industry and the tools it uses. Programs like Crazybump, Worldmachine, XNormals, Topogun, etc., etc., are created at a very good pace and each of them helps make a certain part of the process easier. No-one in the industry is sitting around doing things inefficiently (especially on the art side!) because we want to. We're using the most efficient processes possible because if we don't then we're out of a job. If we're not efficient we literally won't make our product on deadline for our publisher or before we run out of money to pay our employees.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Thats far closer a balance issue and not a hitbox/hurtbox issue.

How is it not a hitbox/hurtbox issue when the issue is caused by the character having a larger hitbox? It is a balance issue caused by the hitbox.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

I'm going to stop singling out and responding to you, and I think everyone should, too. Because you seem to legitimately believe that your ideas and opinions are valid, and until reality forcibly and painfully disabuses you of that notion, you are literally unreachable and unfixable. And I hope a mod sees this and gives you that tag.

Why wouldn't they be? Progress is always made when there is a demand for something, and there's obviously a demand for making game development smoother and simpler.

I can't help you if you seriously take my "insults" at heart, you're probably not a bad manager, sounds like you're a great one, and my first post about this was before I realized which venue I was speaking in.

You might also see how my original post was edited, about how I retract above statement, which didn't really seem to matter.

Don't take it so hard, well maybe from those who are true assholes, but not from me, because I want no harm. I just want to change things.

 

[dLMN8R]

Reading threads like this are extremely enlightening when it comes to explaining experiences I've had interviewing students for internship positions with Microsoft.

Far too many people who think that ideas matter without realizing that everyone has ideas, and few actually have the skills to understand what it takes to implement those ideas.