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[HamPster PamPster]

What a weird thread. One thing I don't get from the detractors... why should the Skullgirls devs ensure the cheapest possible production?

Let’s assume for a moment that the costs are indeed inflated and the company is poorly managed (despite all evidence to the contrary), who cares? They easily met their funding goal and the fans seem pretty happy. Shouldn't the team be reward for their efforts? Shouldn't the game be treated like a premium product?

What ever happened to supply and demand? Honestly I would make the argument the Skullgirl devs are artificially keeping costs low which keeps competitors from entering the 2D hand drawn fighter market. They should be ashamed ::wags finger::

 

[Wyndstryker]

How is it not a hitbox/hurtbox issue when the issue is caused by the character having a larger hitbox? It is a balance issue caused by the hitbox.

Because damage and character speed is also a factor on top of the hitbox/hurtbox. the hitbox/hurtbox is part of balance but if a developer refuses to properly balance character size with damage and speed then you have a different problem

 

[IHaveCandy]

Maybe this is because I'm coming from a 2D fighter background, but looking at Kuma in SFxT, his head doesn't have a hurtbox in hunting stance. Exactly what you're proposing... and guess what? It made everyone furious because your kicks would whiff clean through his head.

Generally speaking, male characters deal more damage than female characters. That's not a hard and fast rule, but it's certainly a common trope in fighting games.

Kuma can be hopkicked in Tekken in that stance. Can't speak much about SFxT. I don't see why you couldn't have a standard hitbox for Kuma in that stance and be vulnerable to mids. He is essentially crouching.

 

[Keikaku]

Why wouldn't they be? Progress is always made when there is a demand for something, and there's obviously a demand for making game development smoother and simpler.

I can't help you if you seriously take my "insults" at heart, you're probably not a bad manager, sounds like you're a great one, and my first post about this was before I realized which venue I was speaking in.

You might also see how my original post was edited, about how I retract above statement, which didn't really seem to matter.

Don't take it so hard, well maybe from those who are true assholes, but not from me, because I want no harm. I just want to change things.

No your first post was before you realized that said manager was there to refute your statements. The venue is simply one in which a large number of people have read your ridiculous statements and are calling you out on it.

Since you said it, I'll go ahead and agree with you: yes, you are an idiot and you have no idea what you're talking about. Man, I hope you're a troll because some of the stuff you're saying is really fucking embarrassing.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

So basically:

1) Have the novel idea to somehow have the ability to do more work with less effort.
2) ???????
3) Revolutionize game development.

Well if I had figured out the second part, I wouldn't be here.

Working on it though.

 

[joe2187]

I play plenty of fighting games, and it's been one of my bigger complaints with fighting games. For example, Kuma has a bigger hitbox than most characters in Tekken. This causes him to get hit by moves. For example, Bruce's b2 is a mid attack that is quite strong. When Kuma is laying on the ground idle, it only hits Kuma/Panda. There is no reason for this to be. It isn't balanced. It's just an unrealized consequence to him having a larger hitbox. Another Tekken example is that all female characters have a slightly smaller hitbox. This causes certain combos to only work on males. How is that balance? Male characters don't have any sort of universal strength over female.

Each game has it's differences in the way the balance a character

this is how it's done in Skullgirls: SRK Wiki in SG's hitbox data

You can see each hit box is tailored specifically for each and every frame.

Another thing unique in the game is weight specific combos...you can have a completely normal BNB work on some characters that wont work on a specific few due to their weight...this is an advantage some characters have...this creates BALANCE, between a normal light fast character and a heavier slower character

 

[IHaveCandy]

Because damage and character speed is also a factor on top of the hitbox/hurtbox. the hitbox/hurtbox is part of balance but if a developer refuses to properly balance character size with damage and speed then you have a different problem

The only issue in this case is that the hitbox is making Kuma vulnerable to an attack he should not be vulnerable to based on the principles of Tekken's fighting mechanics. A true mid should not be hitting a character that is idle on the ground. The only issue is the hitbox. Not Kuma's size. Not Kuma's speed or strength. The issue is his hitbox in this instance.

 

[Roubjon]

Why wouldn't they be? Progress is always made when there is a demand for something, and there's obviously a demand for making game development smoother and simpler.

I can't help you if you seriously take my "insults" at heart, you're probably not a bad manager, sounds like you're a great one, and my first post about this was before I realized which venue I was speaking in.

You might also see how my original post was edited, about how I retract above statement, which didn't really seem to matter.

Don't take it so hard, well maybe from those who are true assholes, but not from me, because I want no harm. I just want to change things.

I understand what you are saying. You are simply telling us that there are ways to cut down costs, but the choice to do that will most likely effect the development of a project in a bad way. So yes, you are techincally correct about that. Choosing to spend less on sound recording will save the company some money, but it will also produce a product they have no interest in.

I guess what you're saying is so obvious that we don't understand why you bring it up in the first place.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

No your first post was before you realized that said manager was there to refute your statements.

Since you said it, I'll go ahead and agree with you: yes, you are an idiot and you have no idea what you're talking about.

Yes, that might be it, I'm not afraid to own up to it.

Still doesn't change the fact I retracted the statement, which still stands.

 

[Roto13]

Well if I had figured out the second part, I wouldn't be here.

Working on it though.

Well until you've created a bunch of new tools that flawlessly automate every expensive, time consuming process, maybe don't offer something that stupid as a solution.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Why wouldn't they be? Progress is always made when there is a demand for something, and there's obviously a demand for making game development smoother and simpler.

I can't help you if you seriously take my "insults" at heart, you're probably not a bad manager, sounds like you're a great one, and my first post about this was before I realized which venue I was speaking in.

You might also see how my original post was edited, about how I retract above statement, which didn't really seem to matter.

Don't take it so hard, well maybe from those who are true assholes, but not from me, because I want no harm. I just want to change things.

I know that this has more or less been addressed, but you must understand that the reaction to you thus far is that you keep doing this weird double speak where you are conciliatory in one breath and defiant and professing tangential -- if not completely relevant -- expertise in another. You seem to realize that you've been backed into a corner and will concede the point respectably, but then you'll write another paragraph elaborating on your original awful stance that belies and true acknowledgment of having been mistaken. For instance, that one post you made in regards to the notion that there is always fat that can be trimmed (with "fat" apparently meaning anything -- even necessary components -- that cost money) was just absurdly idiotic.

 

[Manbig]

I play plenty of fighting games, and it's been one of my bigger complaints with fighting games. For example, Kuma has a bigger hitbox than most characters in Tekken. This causes him to get hit by moves. For example, Bruce's b2 is a mid attack that is quite strong. When Kuma is laying on the ground idle, it only hits Kuma/Panda. There is no reason for this to be. It isn't balance. It's just an unrealized consequence to him having a larger hitbox. Another Tekken example is that all female characters have a slightly smaller hitbox. This causes certain combos to only work on males. How is that balance? Male characters don't have any sort of universal strength over female.

Except for the part where Kuma has a stance that allows him to go under a lot of mids. What's the trade off for having that kind of hurtbox? He can't block during it. Kuma has unique attacks while he's on the ground that are incredibly obnoxious to deal with for certain characters. What's the trade off? He gets hit by a few extra moves while grounded.

Ling has a stance that goes under a majority of the mids in the game. What's the trade off? She can't block during it.

Lili has a high damage launcher that goes under a lot of mids in the game. What's the trade off? Launch punish on block.

Welcome to the world of balance!

 

[Haunted]

He's an "idea" man. Big picture. Can't be held down by the little things, like "how".

assassinated

 

[Devolution]

I understand what you are saying. You are simply telling us that there are ways to cut down costs, but the choice to do that will most likely effect the development of a project in a bad way. So yes, you are techincally correct about that. Choosing to spend less on sound recording will save the company some money, but it will also produce a product they have no interest in.

I guess what you're saying is so obvious that we don't understand why you bring it up in the first place.

You can do stuff on the cheap and have a cheaper product. Why don't games that people want polished do this?

 

[Ravidrath]

Everyone, please PM copious <3s to Keikaku.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

For instance, that one post you made in regards to the notion that there is always fat that can be trimmed (with "fat" apparently meaning anything -- even necessary components -- that cost money) was just absurdly idiotic.

I'm the kind of guy that makes myself look awful when things go bad. It's a sort of defense mechanism.

I made the manager upset, I felt bad about it, and wanted to deflate the situation by proving how idiotic it is to listen to me.

Well until you've created a bunch of new tools that flawlessly automate every expensive, time consuming process, maybe don't offer something that stupid as a solution.

I'm sorry if I did something horrible to you.

 

[SpacePirate Ridley]

So many ingnorant people in this whole thread is depressing me a lot.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Each game has it's differences in the way the balance a character

this is how it's done in Skullgirls: SRK Wiki in SG's hitbox data

You can see each hit box is tailored specifically for each and every frame.

Another thing unique in the game is weight specific combos...you can have a completely normal BNB work on some characters that wont work on a specific few due to their weight...this is an advantage some characters have...this creates BALANCE, between a normal light fast character and a heavier slower character

I would argue the more variables you throw into the equation, the less balanced a game becomes. You can obviously tweak these variables to balance the game. But adding more variables will always increase the likelyhood of an unforseen imbalance occurring. I'm not a fan of things like weight and size having a large impact on character range and vulnerability. It can be there to an extent, but I don't like it having a powerful impact. I also don't like for body size to be the deciding factor of strength or speed. I think things like start up, range, and frame disadvantage to be what causes an attack to be weak, strong, fast or slow.

 

[Owensboro]

Has to be a troll account.

Or, perhaps, they have invented a tool that automatically creates a troll account and responds to threads...

 

[Roubjon]

You can do stuff on the cheap and have a cheaper product. Why don't games that people want polished do this?

It seems to me that they are already doing it as cheaply as possible within the realm of having a quality product. These people are being paid pretty poorly to do some amazing things.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Except for the part where Kuma has a stance that allows him to go under a lot of mids. What's the trade off for having that kind of hurtbox? He can't block during it. Kuma has unique attacks while he's on the ground that are incredibly obnoxious to deal with for certain characters. What's the trade off? He gets hit by a few extra moves while grounded.

Ling has a stance that goes under a majority of the mids in the game. What's the trade off? She can't block during it.

Lili has a high damage launcher that goes under a lot of mids in the game. What's the trade off? Launch punish on block.

Welcome to the world of balance!

Those stances have serious setbacks. You cannot block anything in those stances. I don't mind those stances because it is the player trading blocking for dodging. Plus, you can just hopkick a majority of that junk.

For example, Lei's panther stance will auto-parry all lows and dodge all highs. But he is vulnerable to mids and he cannot block. That isn't the same as having a different hitbox for the base character. The character is essentially doing an attack stance, which leads to vulnerabilities and advantages.

 

[GuardianE]

The only issue in this case is that the hitbox is making Kuma vulnerable to an attack he should not be vulnerable to based on the principles of Tekken's fighting mechanics. A true mid should not be hitting a character that is idle on the ground. The only issue is the hitbox. Not Kuma's size. Not Kuma's speed or strength. The issue is his hitbox in this instance.

But that's a single outlying circumstance that can be changed with a balance patch... the solution is not to standardize hurtboxes.

I would argue the more variables you throw into the equation, the less balanced a game becomes. You can obviously tweak these variables to balance the game. But adding more variables will always increase the likelyhood of an unforseen imbalance occurring. I'm not a fan of things like weight and size having a large impact on character range and vulnerability. It can be there to an extent, but I don't like it having a powerful impact. I also don't like for body size to be the deciding factor of strength or speed. I think things like start up, range, and frame disadvantage to be what causes an attack to be weak, strong, fast or slow.

Have fun playing Divekick.

 

[Wyndstryker]

Those stances have serious setbacks. You cannot block anything in those stances. I don't mind those stances because it is the player trading blocking for dodging. Plus, you can just hopkick a majority of that junk.

You're going well beyond my general experience with tekken is going. But a lot of this really sounds like tekken hit detection specifically are wacky and should not be taken as a general standard to how hitboxes/hurtboxes are handled.

 

[Manbig]

I would argue the more variables you throw into the equation, the less balanced a game becomes. You can obviously tweak these variables to balance the game. But adding more variables will always increase the likelyhood of an unforseen imbalance occurring. I'm not a fan of things like weight and size having a large impact on character range and vulnerability. It can be there to an extent, but I don't like it having a powerful impact. I also don't like for body size to be the deciding factor of strength or speed. I think things like start up, range, and frame disadvantage to be what causes an attack to be weak, strong, fast or slow.

Except for the part where having more variables are what makes the game fun. Believe it or not, most people care just as much about the diversity of the cast as they do about the balance. Sometimes they even care about it more than they care about the balance.

 

[Ravidrath]

So many ingnorant people in this whole thread is depressing me a lot.

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

 

[Beast Legacy]

Or, perhaps, they have invented a tool that automatically creates a troll account and responds to threads...

 

[joe2187]

Those stances have serious setbacks. You cannot block anything in those stances. I don't mind those stances because it is the player trading blocking for dodging. Plus, you can just hopkick a majority of that junk.

For example, Lei's panther stance will auto-parry all lows and dodge all highs. But he is vulnerable to mids and he cannot block. That isn't the same as having a different hitbox for the base character. The character is essentially doing an attack stance, which leads to vulnerabilities and advantages.

That's called balance...you're trading X for Y.

The issue you have with kuma is a specialised issue, that can be fixed.

 

[Manbig]

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

Nailed it.

 

[Devolution]

It seems to me that they are already doing it as cheaply as possible within the realm of having a quality product. These people are being paid pretty poorly to do some amazing things.

Oh definitely. A bunch of artists and software devs could be making more money in advertising or IT.

 

[Owensboro]

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

And now it's completely understandable. Holy crap.

 

[IHaveCandy]

But that's a single outlying circumstance that can be changed with a balance patch... the solution is not to standardize hurtboxes.




Have fun playing Divekick.

I don't think having not having more superficial variables will cause a game to be boring or limited in strategy. I think it could even be argued that maintaining only more sensible variables allows for more strategy since both players can more understandably manipulate what is occurring and derive new tactics better. I could say your ideology spawns stuff like Smash Bros. Sure, it's a fun game. But I wouldn't say it is a very strategic game in a lot of ways. Not saying Skullgirls is Smash Bros. Just saying you can oversimplify your argument as well.

 

[Warm Machine]

I've got to say that this is my favorite thread on GAF ever. I love when other decelopers discuss their planning and creation process as well as costs. Educational threads are worth every post.

 

[GuardianE]

And now it's completely understandable. Holy crap.

To be fair, this isn't something that's exclusive to GAF, though. If nothing else, I'd suggest that there's more representation in this thread of knowledgable industry people than there would be on most other forums.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

And now it's completely understandable. Holy crap.

Let this thread stand as a reminder what what happens when you let your inner GameFAQs out.

 

[IHaveCandy]

Except for the part where having more variables are what makes the game fun. Believe it or not, most people care just as much about the diversity of the cast as they do about the balance. Sometimes they even care about it more than they care about the balance.

Yeah. I'm just saying I care more about balance than superficial diversities of characters.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Ok, so you're completely out of touch with reality. I guess I'll give it one more try.

You're proposing an automated process/tool to create code that works more directly with....what? Do you know why code glitches occur? It's not because there isn't a tool to prevent glitches or catch possible bugs. Every IDE I've ever seen or used has wonderful processes that point out potential errors at every available opportunity on compile or before. Most errors are however, unforseen. That's what makes them errors. Automated processes can help with some of that but they can't catch all of it. So long as you have human devs, you will have errors-the best you can hope for is that none of them make it to the end consumer.

Plenty of level editors are drag and drop but that doesn't always work for every type of game. The game I'm currently working on has an extremely easy-to-use and robust level editor but ease of use doesn't change the fact that levels still have to be, you know, designed. You make a level, try it out and then iterate on it. It takes tens or hundreds or thousands of iterations to make it perfect. You think the first level of Mario would have been easier to make if the level editor had been better? Really?

I can't imagine what advantages a scultping tool that you could "use with your hands" would provide over Zbrush or even what sort of input devices for the actual artist you'd have to use. How would the computer recognize your inputs? What program would you use to interface with it? Who makes this program? What's the pipeline to get this physical sculpture into a digital medium?

Automated tools aren't some magical solution that you can just get made. Believe it or not, there is serious iteration and evolution in the games industry and the tools it uses. Programs like Crazybump, Worldmachine, XNormals, Topogun, etc., etc., are created at a very good pace and each of them helps make a certain part of the process easier. No-one in the industry is sitting around doing things inefficiently (especially on the art side!) because we want to. We're using the most efficient processes possible because if we don't then we're out of a job. If we're not efficient we literally won't make our product on deadline for our publisher or before we run out of money to pay our employees.

I've found that game tool development is something that can be really hard to get people not in the know to truly understand (I did game/engine tool production in the last 2 years of my gaming career) - without knowing the pipelines and workflows, and how things used to be and how much more efficient things have become this past generation. Sure there's still plenty of room for improvement, but good tools engineering is expensive, and many developers/publishers often want to utilize better talent in other areas unfortunately.

Hell, what I'm doing now could still be considered tool development production, just in another industry (R&D for CG).

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

Indeed. I know plenty of people who lurk, but almost never post or even bother trying to get an account.

 

[Ravidrath]

Oh definitely. A bunch of artists and software devs could be making more money in advertising or IT.

Yeah, people don't seem to get that game development is...

1. Probably the hardest software development there is that isn't, like, for the military or NASA - you have to get very disparate types of people (artists, programmers, designers, producers) to work together on a common goal that is quality-based, and a failure on any of their parts can ruin the entire product

2. Game developers generally get paid a lot less than they could in other fields, and they're OK with that because the love making games​

 

[joe2187]

And now it's completely understandable. Holy crap.

 

[RiccochetJ]

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

At the same time it's been very informative. I wasn't surprised at the cost, but it's cool to go on a deep dive like this.

I think the bigger problem is that for every person that's getting educated, someone else around the world is waking up, logging onto GAF, reading the headline, skimming the first post, then going to the last page and posting their 'opinion'. Then the cycle starts over again.

 

[Phoenixazure]

This is an aside but I wonder if this has any implications on that neogaf documentary. If nothing else, this has been rather eye opening as far as the need to be able to communicate what actually goes into game development and dispel some myths. Maybe some more gamasutra articles should have threads made or something, but I think this should be addressed in a constructive manner somehow in an OT or something.

 

[Owensboro]

I know, and my mom said I would never get anywhere with these games!

I wonder if that phone number still works....

 

[Devolution]

Yeah, people don't seem to get that game development is...

1. Probably the hardest software development there is that isn't, like, for the military or NASA - you have to get very disparate types of people (artists, programmers, designers, producers) to work together on a common goal that is quality-based, and a failure on any of their parts can ruin the entire product

2. Game developers generally get paid a lot less than they could in other fields, and they're OK with that because the love making games​

Just designing simple UIs and menus in flash is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine an even more complicated version of it complete with more interactivity, more complex visuals, mechanics and other variables to deal with. If there was ever something that grates on me it's people who don't work in an industry telling others how their job works.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Yes, the nerve of those people getting paid a decent wage for their work.

They aren't even being paid that. I've read the first and last 100 posts, but the 8 staffers are being paid the equivalent of 28.8k a year... in Los Angeles.

P.S. From a business perspective, this thread is highly informative. Also, huge lols to "why not just automate it". Man let me get my automator from my automa-tree and just automate my work! so ez

 

[zoukka]

Just designing simple UIs and menus in flash is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine an even more complicated version of it complete with more interactivity, more complex visuals, mechanics and other variables to deal with. If there was ever something that grates on me it's people who don't work in an industry telling others how their job works.

Yeah it's an eye opener to learn a skill like vector based graphics/layouting and then aiming to be a game artist, only to realise vector art is like 1% of the skill range needed :b

And just focusing solely on making web graphics and posters could offer a really nice pay.

 

[Devolution]

They aren't even being paid that. I've read the first and last 100 posts, but the 8 staffers are being paid the equivalent of 28.8k a year... in Los Angeles.

P.S. From a business perspective, this thread is highly informative. Also, huge lols to "why not just automate it". Man let me get my automator from my automa-tree and just automate my work! so ez

It's also a general ignorance for the creative process. Why do people keep redrawing things? Why not just sculpt them digitally? Uhm.

 

[Wyndstryker]

They aren't even being paid that. I've read the first and last 100 posts, but the 8 staffers are being paid the equivalent of 28.8k a year... in Los Angeles.

P.S. From a business perspective, this thread is highly informative. Also, huge lols to "why not just automate it". Man let me get my automator from my automa-tree and just automate my work! so ez

Chances are most game developers are just getting by. Those who work for large studios or large publishers would get salaries closer to software industry standards.

As for this automa-tree, I could use one of those.

 

[ChamplooJones]

Again, this is why devs very rarely post openly on GAF.

GAF really likes to brag about how all these devs read it! But no one seems to understand why they don't post on it.

Damn man, Ravi is killin' folks in this thread. Good shit.

 

[demidar]

Yeah. I'm just saying I care more about balance than superficial diversities of characters.

I don't... I don't think hitboxes are superficial.

 

[spekkeh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL43_RTo4BM

This is me right now.... Well, was when I read the IQ-reducing post about fucking MUGEN of all things. But mostly for a good amount of this thread, too.

Also, a big "FUCK YOU" to the guy that said that Twitter is a full of "degenerate morons".

You have a fucking brain slug sucking on Fry's head as an avatar. You do the fucking math, kid.

Eloquently put. You must have a lot of followers.

Anyway I'm out. Thanks for the devs that did want to chip in. This has been highly educational.

 

[Opiate]

FWIW I'm not arguing that the numbers aren't reasonable, but at the same time I don't see how a simple "breakdown" of the costs helps at all, since I'm not in a position to judge the smaller amounts any more than the larger one.

So what, precisely, can a developer do to convince you that their production costs are reasonable? As far as I can tell you're giving them no recourse. The breakdown of costs in that manner is literally what accounting is: you separate the costs in to individual pieces so that the IRS can have a more accurate, transparent view of your business transactions. If that doesn't work for you, then what are developers supposed to do? Honest question. Generally speaking, the way people justify expenditures is by breaking them down in to individual components so you can transparently see where the money is going. It's as if you're saying "I personally cannot understand how these financials work, but it sounds stupid to me."

I've already said this before in this thread, but look -- I get that these figures are depressing, as there are real world consequences to the high cost of modern game development. It causes all sorts of problems for game developers, and the high costs are one of the reasons that so very many developers have gone under in the last 5 years.

It isn't pleasant to think about, I understand. But if you just don't want to think about it and refuse to account for the financials even though the developer is breaking down the costs for you, then you probably shouldn't be in this thread.