DrForester
Kills Photobucket
The baptism is a focal point that then branches out into all the possible realities.
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
The baptism is a focal point that then branches out into all the possible realities.
I seem to remember Ken mentioning there would be more of what we saw in that trailer in the game, yet besides the music and New York really nothing quite matched it for me. Hell I was looking for the downed horse most of the game, forgetting she actually opens to that Star Wars scene really early on. I was freaked out with the red tears, as during the Siren part of the game I swear I kept hearing Girl just want to have fun on that cracked street near the dead guy and I thought I just couldn't find where the tear was.
jacksepticeye
Member
That would have been kinda cool actually.
A twist is a given for a Bioshock game anyway. And the quote is likely there to make you more attentive and actually pay attention to clues to understand the story. if you went in blind without quotes like that you would be worse off
You actually did hear that song! I thought I was going insane there too and maybe I was just hearing that electric current showing on that cracked street.
But you cross that chasm, turn around and you see a hole to jump through. You'll find a red tear that plays Girls Just Wanna Have Fun and a voxophone explaining that the musician character stole songs from the future to make the ones you hear in the game. That's why some of the record players are playing more modern day songs but in old timey styles.
SO awesome
ThusZarathustra
Member
Ummm... if I'm interpreting you correctly then... yes? I think?
The male lutece seems to think that the probability-set that represents infinite variations on Booker-as-born-again-christian no longer continues in any way once the game is over. This does not preclude infinite variations on the probability-set of Booker rejecting the baptism, of course, but those variations all seem to have the constant of Booker together with his daughter. Infinite variations on Booker always rejecting the baptism; infinite variations of success, in other words.
The female lutece seems to think that the probability-set that represents Booker-as-born-again-christian absolutely continues once the game is over. Infinite variations on success AND failure, in other words.
So yes, I think we interpreted each other correctly.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
So did "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" ever show up in the game, or just in the credits?
blame space
Banned
i went in blind except for knowing that it was a floating city and i'm really glad i did.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Same. I didn't even play much of the previous games.
I only saw the first trailer and the 15 minute gameplay...which wasn't even in the game for the most part lol
I skipped everything else basically
When Elizabeth opens the tear to Paris.
It was playing on a phonograph in the detached, floating house SiskoKid described a few posts up.
Ultimately I'm a little disappointed by the story but I'm glad it wasn't spoiled.
They do such a good job with the world building, from the big stuff like concept and art design, to music and audio clues. But it feels like this game is proof that no matter how high concept, the (big budget) FPS can't escape the gravity well of the genre's conventions. It's hard to tell a good story that involves ever increasing cycles of: kill 100 dudes, find key, boss fight, kill 100 dudes, and so on.
They do such a good job with the world building, from the big stuff like concept and art design, to music and audio clues. But it feels like this game is proof that no matter how high concept, the (big budget) FPS can't escape the gravity well of the genre's conventions. It's hard to tell a good story that involves ever increasing cycles of: kill 100 dudes, find key, boss fight, kill 100 dudes, and so on.
You actually did hear that song! I thought I was going insane there too and maybe I was just hearing that electric current showing on that cracked street.
But you cross that chasm, turn around and you see a hole to jump through. You'll find a red tear that plays Girls Just Wanna Have Fun and a voxophone explaining that the musician character stole songs from the future to make the ones you hear in the game. That's why some of the record players are playing more modern day songs but in old timey styles.
SO awesome
Man now I wish there was a more fleshed out Finktown. Imagine the period remixed pieces we could have got that would sort of fuel the Vox. Maybe an Irish or Black person pushing NWA music or Bob Marley to the people to get them to revolt and Finks brother having to take out his rising competition who was pushing the lessers music impressing the pure youth of Columbia.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
And even then it didn't really matter as each twin is still bound to a subjective perception. Each represents the two philosophical models related to space/time multiverse. He sees it as an absolute end of all possible variations. She sees it as all possible variations repeating infinity. They're both technically right as far as they'll perceive it.
jacksepticeye
Member
I saw all the trailers AND had the ending spoiled for me a week and a half before playing it
Still had a tonne of surprises though. I knew Booker was Comstock (likely would have guessed anyway) and I knew Liz was his daughter and killed him in the end. But I never knew how it got to that point and there was a LOT more to take in
a cool thing about this is both luceses forwarded as being of the same
but also this little incest subplot between them
so like there is incest, and also there is miscegenation which was really important during the restoration, comstock killing indians to "prove" he doesnt have indian blood
the game juxtaposes this idea of erasing history with persevering cultural meaning, this little conversation going on (does booker deserve to be happy) is really nice
ThusZarathustra
Member
In the end, I think it can be definitively said that the Male Lutece is correct from any sort of humanistic worldview (we can argue the gender politics of that and Levine's depiction of female scientists more generally later).
Regardless of whether infinite variations exist after the two do their machinations to get A Booker reunited with his daughter, the basic humanistic goal of lessening needless pain and suffering is respected. And even if it is only this ONE iteration of them that is able to "work out" it should still be worth it from the humanistic perspective.
The Female Lutece seems to think that this one little thing is not worth the effort. Hence, I think, the mention of Nihlism earlier in the thread (though I do not think the male Lutece's worldview can be said to be fatalistic; I'd argue humanistic, even if it does take him two decades to come around to such.)
Regardless of whether infinite variations exist after the two do their machinations to get A Booker reunited with his daughter, the basic humanistic goal of lessening needless pain and suffering is respected. And even if it is only this ONE iteration of them that is able to "work out" it should still be worth it from the humanistic perspective.
The Female Lutece seems to think that this one little thing is not worth the effort. Hence, I think, the mention of Nihlism earlier in the thread (though I do not think the male Lutece's worldview can be said to be fatalistic; I'd argue humanistic, even if it does take him two decades to come around to such.)
yeah I like this interpretation even though I didn't really see male Lutece that way
Finished this one earlier today. First time I've been eager to quickly complete a mostly linear, story driven game in ages. Portal 2 was the previous one.
I loved the ending, too. Story didn't peak in Act 2 this time as it did in Bioshock. The final act was awesome in Infinite - it didn't feel drawn out for me.
I loved how they really took the multiple universes concept and ran with it and got so nuts with it with millions of universes and timelines, then doubled down on the ideas of intersecting universes by having Booker and Comstock be the same person from to different realities.
One of the better sci fi stories I've experienced.
I loved the ending, too. Story didn't peak in Act 2 this time as it did in Bioshock. The final act was awesome in Infinite - it didn't feel drawn out for me.
I loved how they really took the multiple universes concept and ran with it and got so nuts with it with millions of universes and timelines, then doubled down on the ideas of intersecting universes by having Booker and Comstock be the same person from to different realities.
One of the better sci fi stories I've experienced.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I still can't believe that wasn't William Hurt doing Comstock's voice...
he knew he would die OR he knew they would finally end his existence for good, imo.
I do too merely because I am a glass half full type of guy but both leave room for interpretation.
It's funny you bring up portal 2 as that game and this one were the only games this gen where I would periodically stop and enjoy everything around me. Most games took me awhile to actually appreciate the world presented to me yet something as simple as robots being assembled or exploring a toy store for all its toys and posters kept me idle way longer than it should have.
GoddyofAus
Banned
The act of Booker killing him came across to him as Booker trying to silence him, so Elizabeth wouldn't find out the truth, therefore setting in motion the same cycle that led to Booker becoming Comstock. However his logical fallacy lies in Elizabeth already having guessed who Booker is and pointing that out to him the moment she had the power to.
I'm slowly working my way through this thread from my last post (back on page 54) and something struck me.
Forgive me if this has been mentioned already.
Could the fact that Comstock has aged so quickly be partly his opening of tears so often, but also because part of him 'remembers' feeling guilty for selling his daughter? Perhaps Bookers guilt and alcoholism and depression transcends the universes, causing Comstock to age far quicker than he normally would.
Forgive me if this has been mentioned already.
Could the fact that Comstock has aged so quickly be partly his opening of tears so often, but also because part of him 'remembers' feeling guilty for selling his daughter? Perhaps Bookers guilt and alcoholism and depression transcends the universes, causing Comstock to age far quicker than he normally would.
Voice of Reason
Banned
I agree, that's what came to my mind after I killed Comstock.
The tears were having an effect on Comstock but I don't know to what extent. The results left him infertile and with enough tumors to make him start taking desperate measures with Elizabeth.
Fo real, also I'm sure Fink's equivalent could be said to be Suchong.
toastyToast
Member
Are people saying that the 'considering-being-baptised' Booker isn't deleted along with Comstock now?
SammiiDoogles
Member
Quick note, anyone notice the name of the girl constantly recording Voxophones for Liz? Her name was Constance. Does that have some link to the constants and variables in play that Liz mentions herself? Constance/Constants. I don't know what the link is, or if there even is one - but I'm sure it was intentional and a nice little nod.
Not sure if that's been brought up, but it's late and I don't feel like backtracking through the thread looking.
Not sure if that's been brought up, but it's late and I don't feel like backtracking through the thread looking.
He's not. Only Comstock is killed. All Booker variations we know of in every possibility space now declined the baptism.
I'm still lost on the whole after credits ending. Does it mean atleast one booker in the universe had a normal life
Will there be some answers in this, perhaps?
https://store.irrationalgames.com/Product.aspx?pSKU=2K-BS-ART-BOOK&vSKU=2K-BS-ART-BOOK
https://store.irrationalgames.com/Product.aspx?pSKU=2K-BS-ART-BOOK&vSKU=2K-BS-ART-BOOK
he sounded like he won, so i was pretty confused, what would his death accomplish?
also, the whole die in baptism seem unnecessary, why must booker die? he can always walk away before the baptism even happened. Killing him in one universe doesn't mean the other bookers in the other universe won't go through with it. They'll need to literally erase booker's existence at its root to clear all versions of himself.
i haven't seen that mentioned and i had forgotten about her.
It means all infinite possibilities of Booker exist but ALL of them reject the baptism. This is now a constant in his possibility space.
Elizabeth and Comstock are characters that do not exist in any possibility space now. They were both erased from space/time.
GoddyofAus
Banned
The scene is left ambiguous. You can't hear Anna crying or any sounds coming from the crib. It's up to you to interpret what happened. If Anna is there, then it's over. Comstock never existed. If she isn't there, the cycle continued.
I mentioned the exact same thing last night (probably lost about 10 pages earlier).
toastyToast
Member
Killing Comstock would require killing all the Bookers that attended the ceremony. Unless we assume that the Booker we see was a Comstock candidate which we don't know for sure, every Booker that attends the baptism ceases to exist.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
I think that basically, (at least as the male Lutece sees it, or happy ending-wise) since Liz can see every door ever in existence, she's basically 'cheating' as we humans see it, and reaching the perfect decision/time/space through the tears that will have the desired effect on the multiverse to erase the Comstock decision from the timeline forever.
It means that either HAPPY ENDING: since all Bookers refused even going to the baptism, the choice was never made, and Comstock could have never formed. Thus, Anna is born, his wife dies, he racks up debt, but he still has his daughter.
In the BAD ENDING: it's a "new" Booker having a tear bleed-over of memories, leading him to realize that Anna is still gone, and he's 'seeing' another universe's Booker come to the end of the road. Thus, the universe is still undergoing the loop.
Personally, I can't see Ken being that fatalistic, but I don't know if he ever stated which Bioshock ending was the 'canon' one that he made before he was asked to split the ending up into good and evil decisions.
But even if that Booker walks away, other Bookers may make a different choice based on small variables unique to that universe. The only way to ensure Comstock's non-existence is to kill all of the Bookers who even attended the baptism in the first place.
Basically, Ken's playing hard and loose with the infinite universe theory to state that while the universe moves in a relatively constant/fixed direction, there are some key variables which can change the way things proceed.
And while Liz probably could erase Booker entirely, that'd be the quintessential Grandfather paradox. It isn't conveyed well, but IMO, she is using her ability to see every single possibility to find a way that will only erase Comstock.
It means that either HAPPY ENDING: since all Bookers refused even going to the baptism, the choice was never made, and Comstock could have never formed. Thus, Anna is born, his wife dies, he racks up debt, but he still has his daughter.
In the BAD ENDING: it's a "new" Booker having a tear bleed-over of memories, leading him to realize that Anna is still gone, and he's 'seeing' another universe's Booker come to the end of the road. Thus, the universe is still undergoing the loop.
Personally, I can't see Ken being that fatalistic, but I don't know if he ever stated which Bioshock ending was the 'canon' one that he made before he was asked to split the ending up into good and evil decisions.
But even if that Booker walks away, other Bookers may make a different choice based on small variables unique to that universe. The only way to ensure Comstock's non-existence is to kill all of the Bookers who even attended the baptism in the first place.
Basically, Ken's playing hard and loose with the infinite universe theory to state that while the universe moves in a relatively constant/fixed direction, there are some key variables which can change the way things proceed.
And while Liz probably could erase Booker entirely, that'd be the quintessential Grandfather paradox. It isn't conveyed well, but IMO, she is using her ability to see every single possibility to find a way that will only erase Comstock.
Why would it require that? Elizabeth states outright that in all possibility spaces there is only one where killing Comstock will basically fix the infinite loop. She is all seeing at this point. She then says killing Comstock at his birth is the answer. The birth being the baptism.
Comstock is born by accepting the baptism. All Bookers that do not get baptized are unaffected.