Woah... Nice.
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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
Woah... Nice.
darth_infamous
Member
I'd suggest reading The Devil in the White City, it takes a look at what it took to build the 1893 Columbia Exposition.
I think the Luteces play the major role in this game. There are multiple instances which suggest they have had to open another tear to another Booker because he has died in the process of saving Elizabeth (something they want to happen in order to seal away their scientific discovery and repent for facilitating in the whole Comstock/Columbia problem).
For example, the dead guy in the lighthouse could be a Booker from another timeline in the multiverse who failed to climb the lighthouse and was killed by the keeper.
I also think that helps explain the scene whereby Booker walks through the tear at the door in his office every time he dies.
That being said, there are still some loopholes and issues with this idea, but I think there is something to it.
My theory for the Bioshock scene and its relation to the story is a bit farfetched and I doubt many will agree, but...
...I reckon Rapture was stumbled upon, perhaps by the Luteces, and much of the technology of the game was acquired through it (ADAM used to create Vigors; mechanics behind the humanoid enemies).
What I would love to see is a DLC expansion that expands on the connection with Rapture. Despite happening in different decades, I have a strange feeling that the guys at Irrational might have intended for Columbia to have been literally Rapture, but from another timeline in the multiverse. Obviously, what with there being no reference to Booker/Comstock, no visible relation with Andrew Ryan etc, this seems improbable, but perhaps that's only the case because it wasn't thought of during the development of Bioshock 1.
Who knows, really. But I'd love to see more from Levine's canon, hopefully sooner (Infinite DLC) rather than later (a whole new Bioshock title).
For example, the dead guy in the lighthouse could be a Booker from another timeline in the multiverse who failed to climb the lighthouse and was killed by the keeper.
I also think that helps explain the scene whereby Booker walks through the tear at the door in his office every time he dies.
That being said, there are still some loopholes and issues with this idea, but I think there is something to it.
My theory for the Bioshock scene and its relation to the story is a bit farfetched and I doubt many will agree, but...
...I reckon Rapture was stumbled upon, perhaps by the Luteces, and much of the technology of the game was acquired through it (ADAM used to create Vigors; mechanics behind the humanoid enemies).
What I would love to see is a DLC expansion that expands on the connection with Rapture. Despite happening in different decades, I have a strange feeling that the guys at Irrational might have intended for Columbia to have been literally Rapture, but from another timeline in the multiverse. Obviously, what with there being no reference to Booker/Comstock, no visible relation with Andrew Ryan etc, this seems improbable, but perhaps that's only the case because it wasn't thought of during the development of Bioshock 1.
Who knows, really. But I'd love to see more from Levine's canon, hopefully sooner (Infinite DLC) rather than later (a whole new Bioshock title).
jacksepticeye
Member
I'm sure there are more 1-2-2 sequences throughout, that one just jumped out at me the most when I read that
indigo-cyclops
Member
I've heard that's a great book. I'll check it out. Is it based on HH Holmes partly?
Mushroomer25
Member
Booker turns into Comstock after accepting the baptism and taking on a new identity. By killing the version of Booker who takes the dip, Comstock (and Columbia) never exists - and Booker & Anna live happily ever after.
Apophenia Overload
Member
darth_infamous
Member
Yep, takes a look at HH Holmes and the architect who built/designed the fair.
Yeah, nice detail there.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
Yeah, but the twins take the booker(s) which never accepted baptism. At the end they drown him. Which is what I don't get
I'll put what I said I few pages back.
I thought Booker lives on.
Is it not that when Booker refuses to be baptised he carries on as Booker, and then the second time he is going to accept the baptism and be born again as Comstock the Elizabeth(s) kill him before he can become Comstock. In the end meaning that all the Comstock's from every universe it gone, but Booker still lives on.
I thought Booker lives on.
Is it not that when Booker refuses to be baptised he carries on as Booker, and then the second time he is going to accept the baptism and be born again as Comstock the Elizabeth(s) kill him before he can become Comstock. In the end meaning that all the Comstock's from every universe it gone, but Booker still lives on.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Right, and the source of Comstock's visions could very well be a shared memory imprinted on just-baptised Booker/Comstock from Booker who had seen the visions made reality. Time is circular so there's no point where Booker is sent back to drown, it's all happening instantly. It's inherently paradoxal, but that's okay, because that universe collapses the moment it comes into being. But you're a mortal man who still perceives time as linear
.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
How great is that parallel? As obvious as it seems to me now, it didn't strike me at first. Both girls mourn the loss of their protector in their own way.
jacksepticeye
Member
Another thing, I was going through today grabbing clips for a video I'm doing on it and I noticed when you free Liz and land in the water with the songbird after you does Booker die here? He wakes up in the office again the same as when you die in game.
Also at the start when the guy baptises you and Booker gasps for air he goes into the office as well. So does he die here too?
Or are these just what he dreams of when unconscious? cos I would like it more if he died many times reinforcing that infinite Booker thing
Also at the start when the guy baptises you and Booker gasps for air he goes into the office as well. So does he die here too?
Or are these just what he dreams of when unconscious? cos I would like it more if he died many times reinforcing that infinite Booker thing
This is a good point, I like the theory and totally possible.
It helps that the Luteces keep saying he never rows, implying they have tried this before.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
It's an interpretation thing. I think he dies both times. Doesn't tell you how he DID get past the priest though.
It's the only reason I can think of for the Lutece's putting a bag over his head to cover the face.
There was a post here in the thread that covered this quite nicely:
Actually, if the Lutece's can pull Booker onto the pier at the beginning of the venture, who's to say they can't pull him into specific areas after passing specific "checkpoints"? That Booker drowns from the priest, Lutece's put a tear where he wakes up, his mind makes the connection that he didn't die, he ALMOST died by drowning, but he's ok now obviously. Same with the fall, though this time they put him back in the water so Elizabeth can "rescue" him from drowning. Same with the wrench hit on the zeppelin, or wherever else it happens in the game.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Right, and the source of Comstock's visions could very well be a shared memory imprinted on just-baptised Booker/Comstock from Booker who had seen the visions made reality. Time is circular so there's no point where Booker is sent back to drown, it's all happening instantly. It's inherently paradoxal, but that's okay, because that universe collapses the moment it comes into being. But you're a mortal man who still perceives time as linear
If that was the case both Booker's would have seen the vision prior to Columbia though, wouldn't they? There isn't anything to suggest that the rejection Booker hasn't seen them while in his apartment but if he had then it would make giving Anna away much more illogical.
PS Actually, now that I think about it, that couldn't occur. If the memory from Booker going back to the baptism was imprinted on them then Comstock would be aware of the chain of events that would prevent 1983 from occuring and could take actions against it. Similarly, Booker would be aware of the consequence of giving away Anna and that he would immediately regret it. Everything would end up as a suppressed memory. EDIT I don't buy the notion that this could occur because the Anna decision is extremely significant to Booker (which is why he latches onto "bring us the girl, wipe away the debt). I cannot accept that this would stay supressed considering that he remembered the burning city almost immediately after arriving in Columbia. It would add much more complication into the timeline than there needs to be and, ultimately, would still result in a failed universe for the Luteces (because Comstock could prevent it).
Although, perhaps I'm just not thinking clearly due to the time.
Final Edit: The reason I'm going with "sent back" is because while every universe is happening simultaneously as you've stated (as female Lutece says, it's an ocean), we see universes that are, relative to the point that we are playing, is ahead of you (1983 universe), the same time (1912) or behind (baptism). I think the memory sharing only works when one universe converges into another or, is some way, tied to another. If we go with time being an ocean, then in theory everybody should have an infinite amount of shared memories and everybody should remember everything (albeit, suppressed). While this is possible, I think the jump over between Chen universe reveals to us the mechanics of remembering (for example, Booker only remembers dying after he goes into that universe, not before).
Of course, this creates a problem with the guards dying when you jump between two universes later in the game and I don't really know any type of way to explain that.
*I'm only bolding since I notice you've posted below and I have just finally managed to explain the reasoning (although, it is pretty in line with what you have posted in your next post).
Actual final edit: Also, I'm not disagreeing that it is, mainly, a metaphorical ending. Ultimately, I don't think the game was designed at all for the type of close scrutiny to each aspect of the plot that is occuring in this thread and as a result I don't think every miniscule piece of the game will ever fit 'perfectly' so that nothing interferes with anything else. I'm merely trying to provide the simplest literal explanation with as few 'gaps' as possible that contradict information provided in the game. I really doubt there is a single 'correct' answer that perfectly solves every tiny aspect of the plot. Although I do think they did an exceptional job of covering up a large amount of potential flaws within the story. I'm subscribing to a "destruction resolution" to the paradox whereby the universe will not allow the paradox to occur. Just like a feedback loop, the universe and choices that lead to the paradox are simply removed to prevent this occuring so, in the end, the only option is for Booker to reject baptism as anything else will lead to the paradox of Booker being murdered by his child before her conception (that's ignoring the other paradoxes such as the Luteces and Elizabeth's formtion).
indigo-cyclops
Member
Interesting, where's that from?
toastyToast
Member
If Booker died a bunch of times, why is it that he only started experiencing cognitive dissonance until later on in the game? The enemies you kill figure out that they died themselves without any outside source confirming it for them which I suppose what some might say was the requirement with Fitzroy's megaphone speech
Is there any meaning to the name Comstock?
Google gives me a reference to an Anthony Comstock, who believed in Victorian Morality around the same time, so it's probably the best best, although some of the views don't overlap (like alcohol).
Probably the usual Levine mashup. The name sounds like the name of a brokerage firm.
Google gives me a reference to an Anthony Comstock, who believed in Victorian Morality around the same time, so it's probably the best best, although some of the views don't overlap (like alcohol).
Probably the usual Levine mashup. The name sounds like the name of a brokerage firm.
indigo-cyclops
Member
This was mentioned earlier and seems like an inspiration, though I'm not sure if it was ever made clear.
He's simply listed as a level designer, but maybe someone else knows more?
They had no way of resolving the conflict themselves in their head of suddenly being alive after being dead a few moments ago. If you're wide awake, then suddenly you have a vivid memory of actually dropping dead right there, maybe in a gruesome way, your mind would snap. In Booker's case, all along there was the way of justifying it by just declaring them "near misses" and he goes on with his life no problem, the only major one was being torn to the lighthouse to begin with, but even then his mind is strong enough to survive and form a new memory(or a smattering of one) made up of old ones. If he can survive THAT one, he'd have no problems shrugging off the others.
Apophenia Overload
Member
It brings to mind the Comstock Lode, a large silver deposit which was discovered in Nevada in 1859, which unfortunately is way before Bioshock Infinite. But hey, one old-timey historical period is similar as another, right?
The Wikipedia article is pretty fascinating:
The Wikipedia article is pretty fascinating:
Wouldn't he have died in other universes, though? He hadn't died in this one before. Booker never invaded that instance of Columbia before he did.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
It really depends on how you view time, which theory you subscribe to, and which Irrational were writing under. A paradoxal circular time loop works if you consider that no amount of for shadowing would save Comstock, as his death and defeat and the collapse of that universe arr a constant. He may have just chosen to fixate on the city in flames "vision" as that's the one that better satisfies his agenda, unable to comprehend the paradoxal nature of the "visions".
Can't really say for Booker. Will have to think on it. Either way, it really comes down to which philosophy of time and the game subcribes to.
Can't really say for Booker. Will have to think on it. Either way, it really comes down to which philosophy of time and the game subcribes to.
I think the qoute from the Luteces is kind of a clue to this. He mentally just blocks alot of it out and sort of uses the debt thing as a mantra to stay focused on what he's doing. I noticed when I played through he never really questions the Luteces like Liz does possibly because when dealing with them at first they seem to not be forthcoming with information and just ignore him for the most part. Also once he crosses over to where Vox Booker died he starts to nose bleed and his memory starts to fuck with him as well as when he goes ham on Comstock on The Hand.
Yeah, got the idea that Comstock already basically knew he'd meet his end at the hands of Booker. You kind of get that via recording before you meet Elizabeth the first time, when you find out he has cancer, but knows that's not what's going to do him in, and that Elizabeth would be the one to fulfill his purpose anyway, all he has to do was stay alive to see it through. Him being killed by Booker in front of him? Probably thinks that's "mission accomplished" after riling her up about the finger. All he'd have to see is a vision of that scene and the one with a NY under attack and an older Elizabeth, and he'd put two and two together.
There wasn't any. Like most of the other "click F to do *****" options, none of them really effect anything, they're just there and you have to do them or the story won't continue otherwise, because Booker had already done them once before.. Those prompts were the "Would you kindly..." of this game.
7he Talon
Member
I don't think anything.
ThusZarathustra
Member
Time can be simultaneous (which it is) with Comstock still receiving visions of a possible outcome that results in Old Liz and NYC in flames, can't it? Even if the possibility space of the Comstock-divergence has as a collective-constant the inevitable fall of Comstock, that possibility space has nested within it the possibly of his triumph as well.
His triumph just proved less likely than his downfall. The alignment of variables necessary to overcome the power of the constants and allow Comstock to succeed were never brought into being.
As to why his visions are of his triumph ONLY, I don't think we get enough information to say whether he gets other visions which he just stubbornly ignores, or whether his own "wish fulfillment" means he only sees his triumph. At some point you have to stop being overly-literal in your interpretation of the narrative and let the symbolic and metaphorical take over, as EatChildren has been (correctly) pushing for the last few pages or so.
jacksepticeye
Member
It's a Lutece test, like the coin flip. It's like they're doing progress updates and if you choose correctly then they know you're journey is still progressing as they'd like. Probably because you die in the water after songbird chases you, so they check the Booker they used this time to see if he's legit so to speak. Same with the coin flip at the start because as I see it you die when baptised by the priest, the coin flip isn't far after that.
Of course as a player it never matetrs what choice you pick, the Luteces adjust accordingly to it and whatever you pick is just the right choice. Choice is an illusion to all humans and it's also a play on how videogame choices never actually matter, the end is still the same
That's beautiful.
jacksepticeye
Member
AHA-Lambda
Member
I just finished it and my head is full of f*ck right now but I have only got 2 pertinent questions I hope someone can answer:
1) Why did the Luteces bring Booker over to the other dimension? (and from the sounds of the little parts of discussion I've read it seems they've done this more than once).
2) How did Booker end up in the later timeline with the old Elizabeth when he jumped after the songbird?
This is why I loved Bioshock's twist and appreciate this game's too, even if it is much harder on my noggin. The concepts on show here are so meta.
1) Why did the Luteces bring Booker over to the other dimension? (and from the sounds of the little parts of discussion I've read it seems they've done this more than once).
2) How did Booker end up in the later timeline with the old Elizabeth when he jumped after the songbird?
This is why I loved Bioshock's twist and appreciate this game's too, even if it is much harder on my noggin. The concepts on show here are so meta.
GoddyofAus
Banned
Leave it to the Americans to turn this game into yet another Liberal vs. Conservative shit throwing contest.
Columbia is an absolute extreme based off of numerous lies and plenty of deceit. You cannot possibly hope to put that into a context of parallels with our reality.
Columbia is an absolute extreme based off of numerous lies and plenty of deceit. You cannot possibly hope to put that into a context of parallels with our reality.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Doing the last chapter again, I answered my own question. If it's been 20 years since the baptism then she would have been born after. And I guess that makes perfect sense as Comstock would have gone to get his daughter from a timeline where he rejected it.
AHA-Lambda
Member
She must have been as Comstock was sterile, explaining the need for him to steal her from across dimensions.
I also thing the images on the two pendants are there to get the player empathising with Liz a bit. Freedom or confinement - I'm assuming most people chose the bird, although in Liz's world the imagery of bird as freedom and confinement are mixed up, seeing as her keeper was a bird - which also may have been something they wanted on the player's mind.
I know it was a long development, but it did give the dev team a shit load of time to put in a lot of layered shit in like that.
The One Who Knocks
Member
1) In an attempt to reset their meddling with the infinite sets of timelines. This is in three Voxaphones. One of them states that the male Lutece is unhappy being scattered across the timelines while the female Lutece is unphased. The second states that an ultimatum was presented, either the female Lutece accepts the ultimatum or they part (and, as we see them together, the ultimatum was accepted). Finally, the male Lutece is feeling guilt over there interference and wishes to reset things. The female Lutece sees it as pointless because 'time is an ocean' (paraphrased). This final one is almost certainly what the ultimatum was about.
2) Old Elizabeth opened up a tear on the bridge.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Damn, that's a pretty important set of audio diaries I seem to have missed or at least can't recall =/
ThusZarathustra
Member
Every possible iteration of the series' meta-symbolic structure (man, city, girl, etc) is happening all at once, including Old Liz, BioShock 1, and every single possible variation on the idea ever. This is the classic multiversal structure from science fiction. From here, as EatChildren and a few others have been posting the last few pages or so, there are two basic interpretations of the thing from the high-level view:
1) The localized section of infinite possibility space that grows out from the two basic timelines of the baptism is pruned back entirely and the possibility of Comstock, Liz as Enlightened Being, and Columbia at all, disappear entirely, all possibility of them having existed being erased by the Enlightened Being who, herself, never existed. The classic paradox-solution. In the absence of all those spaces of possibility, no version of Booker ever becomes Comstock and so never steals a version of his daughter, and so Player-Booker and his daughter get to be together in the end. This is the "Happy Ending" interpretation. It's also the one that maps to the Male Lutece's worldview, as pointed out earlier in the thread.
2) The other interpretation is that we get to see the one time in all the infinite iterations of the meta-symbolic structure that some sort of closure is actually reached, whereas across the rest of the multiverse, every other option, both better and worse than what we saw, are all still playing out despite the player having seen the one time things "worked out." This is, I suppose, the "Bad Ending" interpretation, and seems to map to Lady Lutece's worldview.
I don't know enough formal philosophy to be able to say exactly what labels better define the concepts at play here. I believe earlier in the thread they were referred to as Fatalism or Nihilism, but those don't sit right with me... maybe the words for eliminating a whole future chain of events versus seeing only one version of those events work out, haven't been coined yet...
1) The localized section of infinite possibility space that grows out from the two basic timelines of the baptism is pruned back entirely and the possibility of Comstock, Liz as Enlightened Being, and Columbia at all, disappear entirely, all possibility of them having existed being erased by the Enlightened Being who, herself, never existed. The classic paradox-solution. In the absence of all those spaces of possibility, no version of Booker ever becomes Comstock and so never steals a version of his daughter, and so Player-Booker and his daughter get to be together in the end. This is the "Happy Ending" interpretation. It's also the one that maps to the Male Lutece's worldview, as pointed out earlier in the thread.
2) The other interpretation is that we get to see the one time in all the infinite iterations of the meta-symbolic structure that some sort of closure is actually reached, whereas across the rest of the multiverse, every other option, both better and worse than what we saw, are all still playing out despite the player having seen the one time things "worked out." This is, I suppose, the "Bad Ending" interpretation, and seems to map to Lady Lutece's worldview.
I don't know enough formal philosophy to be able to say exactly what labels better define the concepts at play here. I believe earlier in the thread they were referred to as Fatalism or Nihilism, but those don't sit right with me... maybe the words for eliminating a whole future chain of events versus seeing only one version of those events work out, haven't been coined yet...
There is no way she could have been born before the baptism. If she was then Comstock would have never cared about being sterile.
I took the game's historicity with a grain of salt, like it's obviously a weird mish mash of modern sentiments of various portrayals of the late 1800s and early 1900s. The vacuity of the denizens kind of spoke to that, for me, the many conflicting palimpsestic worlds where the dead people felt like something isn't right (and I think that is a continuous sentiment in the game: something isn't right here). I still really don't like it's treatment of an ostensible slave uprising (or at least some sort of uprising of the exploited; here the conflation in history isn't even my problem, it's the attempt to equate Daisy and Comstock on some fundamental level).