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SPOILER Bioshock Infinite SPOILER discussion
- Thread starter thomasmahler
- Start date
XANDER CAGE
Member
Only if you don't shoot the clerk!
IamMattFox
Member
Best line in the game: Elizabeth, why is your mother a ghost?
I guessed the Comstock = Booker and Elizabeth = Booker's daughter pretty around the Slate fight because someone called her Anna.
Even feeling that already, the ending was presented in a fantastic way. Rapture was definitely a fun surprise, and then the slow way the rest of it unraveled to the drowning scene was extremely well done.
Considering I'd heard iffy things on here about the development of the game, I came away pretty floored.
I guessed the Comstock = Booker and Elizabeth = Booker's daughter pretty around the Slate fight because someone called her Anna.
Even feeling that already, the ending was presented in a fantastic way. Rapture was definitely a fun surprise, and then the slow way the rest of it unraveled to the drowning scene was extremely well done.
Considering I'd heard iffy things on here about the development of the game, I came away pretty floored.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
I see it has been answered, but yeah, Anna Booker/Elizabeth came to be in Booker's world, not Comstock's. Elizabeth was unfortunately bound to always be between both worlds, as in every variation Comstock would enter Booker's world and Booker would sell the child. The divergence is still rooted in the baptism, creating the two worlds. Which are ironically doom to converge with Booker as well.
Elizabeth killing Booker at the baptism (literal or symbolic) kills Comstock by preventing that universe divergence from ever happening. It's no longer a door. Booker dies during the baptism, Comstock never comes to be, he never meets the Lucettes, and Columbia is never founded. Which in turn means Anna is never sold, and Elizabeth who fixed all this never existed either.
But the alternative universe to one where Booker accepts baptism and drowns is one where Booker still runs away. That was always still a possibility and isn't negated by Elizabeth's actions. And if he runs his life will play out mostly exactly as it did: he has a wife, she (maybe) dies during childbirth, and he has Anna. He's probably still a gambler and alcoholic. But the Lucettes will never come for Anna, as Comstock is now no longer a probability.
As a side note, I reject the over complication of Rapture's significant that I'm seeing a lot of. Booker = Ryan = Whoever is unnecessary, and unknown, and in the grand scheme of things doesn't matter. The elements of this multiverse are symbolic: there's always a man, who builds a city, and it always starts with a lighthouse, which is a symbolic nexus to the multiverse. Not literally. Booker/BioShockdudewhoI'veforgottenhisname don't go into a new universe when they step into the lighthouse. It's just a symbolic nexus. There's always a light house. Rapture just happens to be another variation of the same universe, with different people, different ideologies, and in a different time.
You could say that Elizabeth was able to observe this phenomena once she could see all doors, but was unable to stop it. She understood how to end the Comstock/Columbia variant universes and everything that comes from those, but the symbolism of Rapture/Columbia (city, man, lighthouse) goes deeper. There's always a man. There's always a lighthouse. There's always a city. It doesn't matter when or who. It's an always. Almost a constant.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Yeah. I pointed this out earlier: the reason you have to pull the lever is because there isn't an Elizabeth lever-pulling animation, not because you're secretly ANDREW RYAN WOULDJA KINDLY
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Unless Anna was born before the baptism. That was never specifically answered one way or another, was it?
XANDER CAGE
Member
If she was born after, Comstock wouldn't need to steal Anna.
If she was born before the bapstim, then Comstock would have her already.
Lol reminds me of that that Austrailian woman (who was also a billionaire) to stop telling those people what to do with their hard earned cash.
She couldn't have been, as Comstock has no child because Lady Comstock is infertile.
Jesus is dead. Y'know, with it being Good Friday and all.
As for your other question, you only have to eliminate the person at the critical event where they become whoever you're trying to destroy, which in this case is the baptism. The Booker who accepted the baptism and was reborn decided to change his name to Comstock and ended up building Columbia, so by killing that Booker, Comstock's existence is negated. The other Bookers didn't accept the baptism, so they're still alive and they survive to father the child Anna.
I assume that the Lutece twins have actually ran several Bookers through the story? I mean, why is there 121 previous attempts when Booker flips the coin?
Also, why is everyone assuming that Anna is there? The scene ends without showing the inside of the crib. And when you see the different versions of Elizabeth, it's a fade to black as you hear the last note.
Also, why is everyone assuming that Anna is there? The scene ends without showing the inside of the crib. And when you see the different versions of Elizabeth, it's a fade to black as you hear the last note.
100% agreed! This was the only bad part of the game IMHO. I didn't even go to the Comstock House because I saw there were areas to explore, and seeing the graveyard empty and seeing Lady Comstock's grave without the ghost aspect was far more powerful an experience than seeing it after I went back to the house and triggered the stupid ghost hunt.
It also didn't vibe well with the narrative either. I didn't like that it was a mixture of herself and Lady Comstock. And that it was a ghost at all. Everyone else came through as a full fledged human, why not her? Just a bizarre left turn I think should've been omitted.
Also, no, Comstock is infertile because of experimentations with tears. He doesn't really cares about Lady Comstock, all he cares about is that the child is his, which is why he finds another he.
BTW, unrelated note, why does a city based so much on morality even have alcohol? Wouldn't it be as successful with prohibition as it was with segregation?
The BI wiki of all places said that the kid resembled the postboy that gave you the letter at the beginning of the game.
Or they just wanted to emphasise the "killing the roots" aspects by showing an extreme example.
Mushroomer25
Member
As I keep thinking about the circumstances of this game's ending, I'm reminded of Virtue's Last Reward. If you have any intent of playing that game & 999, and don't want a HUGE spoiler - don't uncover this.
I feel like both Infinite and VLR are unique, in that they leave the door open for a third games in the series (VLR much more so) - but defuse all of the underlying tension. In VLR, it appears the next game is a quest to contain the virus and therefore ensure the events of that game never actually occur. The nature of the universe is revealed, and the presumed ending is layed out - so I don't see how there's anything left to reveal in the third game, besides going from point A to point B.
The game to follow Infinite (which will happen. It might not be made by Irrational, but this franchise is too popular to end with a game that ISN'T being marketed as "the end of the Bioshock Saga".) There'll be a new Rapture/Columbia variation, a new thing that gives your left hand magic powers, and a new vicious protector. So, with the prophesy outlined - what's there left to do? Shit, what's even left for the DLC to cover besides the Vox Rebellion? If this entire game has been technically retconned, why does any of it matter? Both games are going to have to answer that question, and I'm extremely curious to see how they do it.
The game to follow Infinite (which will happen. It might not be made by Irrational, but this franchise is too popular to end with a game that ISN'T being marketed as "the end of the Bioshock Saga".) There'll be a new Rapture/Columbia variation, a new thing that gives your left hand magic powers, and a new vicious protector. So, with the prophesy outlined - what's there left to do? Shit, what's even left for the DLC to cover besides the Vox Rebellion? If this entire game has been technically retconned, why does any of it matter? Both games are going to have to answer that question, and I'm extremely curious to see how they do it.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Yeah the lighthouse, the man and the city can't be changed. They always happen. It just varieties who builds it and where.
Elizabeth doesn't exist anymore. With the possibility of Comstock dying across all possibilities, Elizabeth ceases to exist entirely. Meaning Booker was never baptized and Anna was never kidnapped. It's pretty clear the baby's in the room.
And, yes, the Lutece twins have done this several times. I actually think when you die during gameplay, you walking through your front door is just a quick way of saying the Lutece twins are bringing you back through again.
jacksepticeye
Member
I not only reject that claim but I also hate it. Having Booker be somehow connected to Rapture that significanly suddenly makes Bioshock 1 a lesser game in a way. Like it can't happen with Infinite and it can't stand on it's own as a story without Infinite or something like that. it undermines a lot of the importance and twists in Bioshock 1 if this were true.
I do understand why people want the connection though, just for that extra Holy Shit moment
rohlfinator
Member
The whole Booker=Ryan and bathysphere fixation seems odd to me; even if we assume the bathyspheres were limited to Ryan's direct family, I think Irrational would be fine with bending the rules a bit in order to facilitate the whole reverse Bio1 intro scene. Especially in a story with infinite universes where rule-bending can be easily justified.
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Indeed, there are numerous "attempts" to solve the problem that is Elizabeth. The twins aim to return Elizabeth to her world. Booker is the test subject who they observe running through Comstock's universe with that objective in mind. Sometimes Booker fails: killed in the lighthouse after Comstock warns the keeper. Killed during the rebellion, which he thinks will get him to Elizabeth. Killed at the raffle when he's taken by surprise. And so on.
The twins simply introduce variables while testing constants to steer Booker down a different path, creating new variations of the universe with different outcomes. The coin is always heads. Booker doesn't row. He draws #77. These are constants. Booker does not have to lead the rebellion. This was a variation that failed, so a new variable was introduced to change his path.
Agreed. This isn't Metal Gear solid where every single character and event needs to be directly linked to one another. Doing so also negates the complexity of what space/time in a multiverse is supposed to represent. Booker isn't Ryan. Or maybe he is. Or maybe there's some symbolic multi-dimensional link between them. Or maybe it's nothing. It doesn't matter. The symbolism is the man, the city, and the lighthouse. It's just one of infinite variations in it's own universe, keeping those constants. BioShock Infinite.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Yes, the Luteces have gone through this several times before, hence the rowing comment in the beginning.
As for the other thing, Elizabeth basically kills off Comstock, herself, and all of the universes associated with the baptism event/time travel.
Whether the Booker at the end (player or some other one) actually does have an Anna in the crib at the end either serves to show that the 'cycle' has ended, or that despite Liz' efforts, the cycle is still continuing.
It's an inception ending moment, similar to how we're not sure if the last Liz actually did die/fade out of existance at the black screen/note moment.
I do like the idea that Lady Comstock is the same Mom-Anna who died in Booker's universe. That really makes an ironic twist to the hateful relationship she had with Liz due to Comstock 'cheating' on her.
But on that, is it said in-game that Comstock aged super-fast due to the tear exposure? I know about the sterility/cancer/tumors, but I thought that Booker went through a temporal leap in addition to a universe skip in order to get to the events of Columbia, since Liz is now 19(?) and all. Or did Booker just get grabbed well later in time by the Luteces?
Technically, aren't all of those 'deaths' more due to cutscene/story reasons? All in-game deaths have you reviving from Liz, or mysteriously reappearing a bit earlier on in the level.
I agree that it's plausible that the 'dream scenes' are the transition to a new Booker, who is getting more and more overlapped memories to help break through his 'false' memories regarding Liz.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
122 or 123, which one is it? The coin flip shows 123?
The One Who Knocks
Member
It's 122 previous times. This time is the 123rd.
EDIT: Here's the chalkboard with the numbering (another dash is added to the front of it after you flip the coin)
Mushroomer25
Member
Every death where Elizabeth isn't with you, results in going through the door. I understood it as a new Booker starting the adventure again, and jumping to where you last failed.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
Makes sense
The more I think about Infinite, the more meta it becomes.
The Lucete's are sort of like Irrational Games. Until Elizabeth comes into play, and even sometimes after, they guide the players. Like Irrational Games would have tuned the game after playtesting, the Lucete's have done the same. "Sometimes he just stands in the lighthouse", "Then why don't we give him motivation to go upstairs?", "Yes, quite". "He tends to find this part difficult", "Well, why don't we give me this shield?", "Yes, quite".
The Lucete's are sort of like Irrational Games. Until Elizabeth comes into play, and even sometimes after, they guide the players. Like Irrational Games would have tuned the game after playtesting, the Lucete's have done the same. "Sometimes he just stands in the lighthouse", "Then why don't we give him motivation to go upstairs?", "Yes, quite". "He tends to find this part difficult", "Well, why don't we give me this shield?", "Yes, quite".
Did anyone pick up on the line that Elizabeth says at the end in the room with the baby version of herself?
She says something like Booker Do It, I don't remember the exact line but I thought it was pretty cool. Booker Dewitt!
Also, Booker's turn to racism makes alot of sense imo. Part of him really enjoyed what he did in the Boxer Rebellion and the battle at Wounded Knee. He was probably always racist and just ended using the baptism and religion as a way to escape from all this guilt he was feeling.
Twisting this guilt around through the lense of religion and rewriting painful memories in a way that suits him best. It's easy to see him becoming Comstock, the way Booker acts when face to face with Comstock near the end really cements it.
He didn't know how to cope, I guess the gambling was another way that he found to drown the guilt. He was basically a broken man after all the things he's done.
She says something like Booker Do It, I don't remember the exact line but I thought it was pretty cool. Booker Dewitt!
Also, Booker's turn to racism makes alot of sense imo. Part of him really enjoyed what he did in the Boxer Rebellion and the battle at Wounded Knee. He was probably always racist and just ended using the baptism and religion as a way to escape from all this guilt he was feeling.
Twisting this guilt around through the lense of religion and rewriting painful memories in a way that suits him best. It's easy to see him becoming Comstock, the way Booker acts when face to face with Comstock near the end really cements it.
He didn't know how to cope, I guess the gambling was another way that he found to drown the guilt. He was basically a broken man after all the things he's done.
What about the Luteces? If Comstock doesn't exist, the female twin doesn't actually research Quantum Physics, which means that tears are never found, she never finds out about her brother and never tries to bring him over.
Was anything hinted about the DLC. For the first time, I would actually care enough about the story and the character to actually buy a season pass.
I thought the powers came from existing in two universes. Since she doesn't lose a part of her finger, she never gets the powers.
Was anything hinted about the DLC. For the first time, I would actually care enough about the story and the character to actually buy a season pass.
I thought the powers came from existing in two universes. Since she doesn't lose a part of her finger, she never gets the powers.
The One Who Knocks
Member
Songbird was designed for low pressures (because the atmospheric pressure at that height is low) while under water the pressure increases enough to prevent him travelling further under to any depth.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I thought it was the water.
Water pressure. It, unlike Big Daddy's, was built for low air pressure (the sky). The water pressure's too much.
(and, as always, 3 simultaneous answers).
EatChildren
Currently polling second in Australia's federal election (first in the Gold Coast), this feral may one day be your Bogan King.
Right, which is what god Elizabeth achieves at the end, negating her own existence in the process. Everything that happened in the Columbia/survived baptism variation no longer exists, or existed.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I thought the Songbird was underutilized overall because it never really came off as a threat. There should have been at least one fight with it that either end with you escaping or losing to it, but not killed.
He's based on Big Daddy tech except he can't deal with high pressure since he's built to function in the sky.
Wonder if they used a mentally challenged person to make the Song Bird, maybe even a kid. It's been a long time since I played Bioshock but isn't that what they did for Big Daddies?
The whale sounds are replaced by songs which is cool too!
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
That's why Liz brings him to rapture. That's the only reason why rapture at all.
She was a quantum physicist before Comstock took her under his wing. So she's probably still studying quantum physics. She may still discover tears and her 'twin' at some point or another.
And you're right about the powers. She becomes an anomaly because she's scattered across space and time. Similar thing happens to the Lutece twins when they're murdered, hence why all 3 are able to manipulate space/time.
Lovely Salsa
Banned
My mind is full of blown
Just correct me on this one. At the end, at the boat, you killed your older self, right?
Just correct me on this one. At the end, at the boat, you killed your older self, right?
Yeah, you killed a version of Booker that undertook the baptism and turned to religion.
show me your skeleton
Member
i was disappointed/surprised by how little songbird was used due to the propaganda in the game that painted him as some kind of omnipresent watchdog. he didn't seem to have much of a presence in day-to-day columbia, which surprised me.
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
Maybe the songbird tech was hard to build. Handymans are probably easier. And you said it, it's still just propaganda.
The One Who Knocks
Member
They are trapped in the timeline. They're no longer 'people' per se. In addition, the male Lutece wants to reset what they caused feeling that they have a responsibility to do so (or at least, the reason he wishes to reset it I can't remember but that is what I presume it is).
In-game justification: You actually run into the songbird plenty of times, in plenty of parallel universes. And just like Elizabeth says, you died each time. In this universe you didn't and you had time to give Elizabeth the card with the cage. So you didn't fight the songbird and you lived.
