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#PS4NoDRM #XboxOneNoDRM || Now do you "Believe?"

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S

scsa

Member
I honestly just don't get the fucking logic of developers here.

Lets take an example of a car here, suppose I bought a Mustang, and now I wish to re-sell it, why in the bloody world would Ford have a right in that re-sale. I paid you when i bought the car, it is mine now. I can burn it to hell if I wished to.

Why should these companies get more dollars when the disk is re-sold? I understand the concept of online pass and the costs with dedicated servers, that they are hosting people who haven't really paid them, but I don't think they should get anything for the campaign. Online 10$ Passes are perfect and make perfect business sense.

On topic - sent the tweets!
 
W

we.are.the.armada

Member
Hey guys, might want to start putting #PS4 in your tweets too so that people talking about the console can get in on this conversation. Sony needs to address this, the sooner the better.

Dinjooh said:
Yes. Mainstream will still slurp it up when MS begins the ad machine, and shows the next gears/halo/crackdown. I don't see how they'll change their current position in Asian and European markets though, and especially emerging markets.
Click to expand...

I think that the mainstream, especially middle-class parents/students, are more cautious of their spending than ever in 2013. I think that Sony has a chance to gain favor.
 
V

Visualante2

Member
scsa said:
I honestly just don't get the fucking logic of developers here.

Lets take an example of a car here, suppose I bought a Mustang, and now I wish to re-sell it, why in the bloody world would Ford have a right in that re-sale. I paid you when i bought the car, it is mine now. I can burn it to hell if I wished to.

Why should these companies get more dollars when the disk is re-sold? I understand the concept of online pass and the costs with dedicated servers, that they are hosting people who haven't really paid them, but I don't think they should get anything for the campaign. Online 10$ Passes are perfect and make perfect business sense.

On topic - sent the tweets!
Click to expand...
Most developers just want to see their games played. This is a move by people in suits who don't give a fuck about players.
 
sakipon

sakipon

Member
KiteGr said:
If I even find that they had plans to do the same before MS's disasterus conference, I'll be very disapointent.

I won't participate for 2 reasons:
  1. I don't use twiter.
  2. I wan't to believe that this campaign was never needed.
Click to expand...

Does this even matter? I'm okay with such campaigns even if it's not needed. Fact is MS is doing something different and now is the time to celebrate the positive sides of used games, including the freedom of lending a disc to a sibling living in another city. I've also praised Nintendo for the same things.

Showing our interest now is also a strong hint for Sony to perhaps consider this as a bullet point in their advertizing.
 
Hoho for breakfast

Hoho for breakfast

Member
GopherD said:
Has anyone thought this might be a moot point?
Click to expand...

I don't get why you're asking maybe but to answer the question, yes I'm sure people have thought of that.

Since we don't know though, and it's possible that Sony could see all this and think "Wow we just might make more money by giving consumers what they want"...why would we not at least make an attempt?
 
ULTROS!

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
I don't have Twitter... Is there something like this on Facebook?
 
M

mcfishstick

Member
Shaheed79 said:
It's not that used games are inherently bad for the industry. It's that major game publishers have made such poor financial decisions in the past 8 years, based on an unsustainable business model, that they have now painted themselves into a corner.

After most publishers suffered record losses, instead of owning up to the blame and changing their business models, they petitioned the console manufacturers to help them stay afloat by implementing technology to lock down used games. It's a desperate response that isn't even a solution to the real problem; that being severely bloated game budgets. Those publishers need to all be supporting a paradigm shift in game development, instead of betraying their customers good will.
Click to expand...

I just want to quote this. Stopping used games is basically a scapegoat. How many people are in the credits of Assassin's Creed 3? Must Square Enix spam around perfecting hair in Final Fantasy Versus for nearly a decade?

Publishers seem to think bigger is better, and instead of reassessing their size they just hire more workers, when they may not sell enough to pay all those workers.

If companies like Bethesda only needed to increase their team size from about 70 to 100 from Morrowind to Skyrim, there is absolutely no need for Ubisoft to have 700+ people working on Assassin's Creed IV when it reuses half the assets, animations etc.
 
N

nelsonroyale

Member
mcfishstick said:
I just want to quote this. Stopping used games is basically a scapegoat. How many people are in the credits of Assassin's Creed 3? Must Square Enix spam around perfecting hair in Final Fantasy Versus for nearly a decade?

Publishers seem to think bigger is better, and instead of reassessing their size they just hire more workers, when they may not sell enough to pay all those workers.

If companies like Bethesda only needed to increase their team size from about 70 to 100 from Morrowind to Skyrim, there is absolutely no need for Ubisoft to have 700+ people working on Assassin's Creed IV when it reuses half the assets, animations etc.
Click to expand...

This is a good anology for the problem with current business model as a whole.
 
S

something fishy

Member
so does this mean ea will introduce a pass again on ps4 if sony don't support this then , seeing as ms have given them this?

they won't just allow sony that advantage and lose that capability knowing it'll mean 90% of sales on the ps4 surely and kill the Bone for good? (and mean they once again get nothing from second hand sales).
 
W

we.are.the.armada

Member
Wow, huge response from EU - looks like tweets regarding region locking are picking up as well. Don't forget to #PS4 in general, since the more people that are aware of this possible problem, the better.

ULTROS! said:
I don't have Twitter... Is there something like this on Facebook?
Click to expand...

OMG if anybody should be on twitter its you ULTROS <3

Just sign up, takes like no time at all and no personal information.
 
Z

ZombiePlatypus

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
But really though if Sony came out of E3 with

1)Free Online MP for PSN, PSN+ has more features, STILL $49.99

2)Non-Region locked

3)Worldwide Release before Black Friday

4)No DRM/Anti-Used game features at ALL. Period.

5)$399 Basic SKU $449 Premium SKU

Would it be premature to say Next gen is over?
Click to expand...

Oh god I'd freaking die. I've decided that I'll probably wait till PS4 hovers around the $200 mark, but an announcement like that would make me day-1 the console. Just to show my support.
 
M

Man

Member
ekim said:
So what's the difference here between Xbox and PS4 despite MS misinforming people. GAF sure is biased :p
Click to expand...
MS made their stance (with the the worst possible decision) and then managed to add a lot of confusion on top of that.
Sony have seemingly not yet made a final decision.
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
mcfishstick said:
I just want to quote this. Stopping used games is basically a scapegoat. How many people are in the credits of Assassin's Creed 3? Must Square Enix spam around perfecting hair in Final Fantasy Versus for nearly a decade?

Publishers seem to think bigger is better, and instead of reassessing their size they just hire more workers, when they may not sell enough to pay all those workers.

If companies like Bethesda only needed to increase their team size from about 70 to 100 from Morrowind to Skyrim, there is absolutely no need for Ubisoft to have 700+ people working on Assassin's Creed IV when it reuses half the assets, animations etc.
Click to expand...

Yup. Burai's post in that other thread should be turned into it's own topic and stickied tbh. So good.
 
Hoho for breakfast

Hoho for breakfast

Member
ekim said:
So what's the difference here between Xbox and PS4 despite MS misinforming people. GAF sure is biased :p
Click to expand...

The difference here is that we already know some of Microsofts plans because they've told us. We don't really know at all what Sony is doing with used games and other DRM. The only thing that's been said really as far as I know is that PS4 will not require online like the X1.

Personally I'm probably slightly biased in favor of Sony over MS, but if they do what MS is doing I hope they both crash and burn.
 
R

Roki6

Banned
Why not add Xbox tags and exec in this? It is industry wide issue and bad trend, why target it to just one company? I think it is not over and MS could change its mind if pushed from outside


Does GAF not want MS to change it's mind?
 
A

angelcage87

Member
Made a twitter account and twitted to every possible person I could think of,Press included. Later I'll show the story to national videogame sites and forums, do the same international Gaf!Let's make some noise!
 
Z

ZombiePlatypus

Member
Roki6 said:
Why not add Xbox tags and exec in this? It is industry wide issue and bad trend, why target it to just one company? I think it is not over and MS could change its mind if pushed from outside


Does GAF not want MS to change it's mind?
Click to expand...

I'd imagine MS is well aware by now how their wrong decisions have been received by the gaming demographic. Still, it's a nice idea. No harm in tagging them as well if you feel so inclined.
 
W

we.are.the.armada

Member
Xbox One is now a trending topic. I wonder how many people talking about it even know just how draconian its DRM is? Maybe by tweeting there, microsoft could change their mind for the xbone?
 
-Plasma Reus-

-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
Sony has more incentive not to implement DRM tbh: Japanese market, European market and legislation. How powerful are publishers really? That's the question we need to ask
 
S

spyshagg

Should not be allowed to breed
did my part.


Used my fear that in 10 years time, we might not be able to play the games we bought today because of DRM and all that it implies.


If PS1 or PS2 had DRM activation 10/15 years ago, the games you bought were actually rented for an unknown time period (until some Executive decides to shutdown the servers to force users onto a new thing)
 
B

baekshi

Banned
Roki6 said:
Why not add Xbox tags and exec in this? It is industry wide issue and bad trend, why target it to just one company? I think it is not over and MS could change its mind if pushed from outside


Does GAF not want MS to change it's mind?
Click to expand...

They already tried to spin it around so they should be well aware of it.
 
T

thefreecheese

Member
As someone who buys my games new and has gone all digital with Vita, blocking used games and such doesn't matter to me.

What does matter to me is something mentioned throughout this thread: free online MP & features. I subscribe to PS+ and will continue to do so, but I'm hoping Sony won't make everyone do so in order to watch Netflix, etc. The money that Microsoft has made on Xbox Live Gold accounts this generation is enough to prove to Sony why to force payment on these features, and I truly hope they do not end up doing this.
Ideally, the PSN on PS4 will continue as it has: free, including every service that it does now, and PS+ should continue offering the content that it does now.
 
M

Man

Member
Some posts that needs re-reading, the first one from this thread:

gofreak said:
By far the bigger issue in the 'it's just like Steam' debate, is that of expectations.

Steam was the way Steam was from the very beginning with regard to DRM.

Expectations around how physical discs will behave have been established over 15+ years on Playstation, and further back on Nintendo/Sega etc.

Why change the game in the Autumn of the physical disc's life? It looks extremely conservative if not slightly desperate from whatever stakeholders are pushing for this. Transition consumers to digital and new models gracefully, with carrots like PS+, not with sticks. Let it be voluntary and natural. Don't try to apply digital rules to physical after the fact.
Click to expand...

These two from the Penny Arcade shill thread:

Burai said:
But Gamestop would never accept that original trade if person 2 wasn't going to buy the used game. Why shouldn't Gamestop benefit? They are the middleman. You just want them to give people free money and throw the discs away?

No, here's the problem. Tomb Raider sold 3.4m units in the space of a month and it's a "failure" because it will fail to recoup its budget.

THREE POINT FOUR MILLION FUCKING UNITS FOR WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A B-TIER FRANCHISE AND THAT'S STILL NOT ENOUGH TO MAKE ANY MONEY.

And killing used games would have solved this how? Would it have made the execs at Squenix who thought throwing $100m budget at a franchise that's been irrelevant since the turn of the century suddenly get a clue?

Oh, but no, they argue "GAMERS PUSH FOR HIGHER AND HIGHER BUDGETS AND WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT! THEIR ENTITLEMENT COMPLEX CAN'T BE SATIATED! WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO LET BUDGETS SPIRAL OUT OF CONTROL!" and that's lovely, but since when did they ever give a fuck about what we actually thought?

Are Microsoft going to turn around and backtrack on this DRM fiasco because "WE HAVE TO GIVE GAMERS WHAT THEY WANT!"? Are they fuck.

Are EA going to throw all their games up on Steam and patch Sim City to not need the stupid Origin authentication because "THAT'S WHAT THOSE ENTITLED GAMERS ARE SCREAMING FOR!"? Fuck no.

If you couldn't afford to give people what they wanted, then why didn't you just turn around and say no like you do with every other thing we complain about? Here's why; Every publisher big and small decided to get into a dick waving contest and it turns out that not everyone has a big dick. Squenix got its tiny little acorn cock out and went up against Mandingo Activision screaming "LOOK AT MY MASSIVE JUNK! YOU'LL WANT TO CARE FOR IT!" and everyone just turned around and shrugged and bought something else.

Not everyone has a big dick. Acting like you have a big dick when you don't have a big dick is going to make the reveal of your tiny little penis all the more humiliating. And that's what happened here. Squenix acted like Tomb Raider, a franchise that habitually sells less than 3m lifetime per entry was going to suddenly sell COD numbers just because they spent $100m on it and guess what happened? THE FUCKING INEVITABLE.

In terms of the franchise post-Core, the game is going to do really well, probably double what you'd expect from a Tomb Raider game post-PSone but it cost far, far too much.

But no, it's all used games that did this. Used games made Capcom make some horrible design decisions on DmC and piss off the entire fanbase. Used games made Activision and EA flood the market with guitar games and accessories long after people stopped caring. Used games made Microsoft make a fourth Gears of War game that nobody asked for from a developer nobody cares about. Used games made Sony pump out another God of War game after they spent the past few years flooding the market with HD remasters. Used games made Sony make a Smash Bros clone with no appealing characters to help sell it. Used games made Bizarre Creations make James Bond and racing games no-one wanted. Used games make publishers shutter studios the moment the game they were working on goes gold, before they've even had a chance to sell a single new copy, let alone a used one.

I could go on. And on. And on. You could write a book about every single executive level screw-up this gen and yet these same people with their million dollar salaries and their shill puppets still try to insult our intelligence and blame used games and awful, entitled consumers for companies shutting and talented people losing their jobs.

So please forgive our cynicism when we don't want to buy into the bullshit you're spouting.
Click to expand...
hardcastlemccormick said:
It's partially the developing industry's own goddamn fault for aiming for the stars and the moon and suddenly realizing that they aimed too high. Who is asking for games that cost into $100 million dollars and took an entire generation to make? Would the sales be impacted if that were halved or quartered? Is there enough sales potential (realistic, actual sales potential, none of this "it might sell better than Pokemon" bullshit). We've seen good looking games made on smaller budgets. Look at the stuff coming out of Eastern Europe for god sakes.

The industry aimed too high, suddenly started ballooning budgets, and then went "oh god there aren't any sales here to cover it up." Their response to this? Homogenize, wring the AAA space of any creativity and put the advertising on full blast. But we can't have smaller budgets, oh no. We've got to have our mo-capped dogs and celebrity voice actors that nobody fucking asked for. We've got to cover the cost of letting you develop your game for five years because you have no direction. We've got to cover you trying to wedge into an already saturated market of shooters and brown, and then failing miserably.

And then, time and time again, the consumers are expected to show up at the door every time these developers come out with some new way to make the package look worse. Oh, now you get half the content. Oh, now we're going to sell you that content back to you over a period of a year. Oh, now we're placing your game's access on computers you don't control, and then those computers won't work. Oh, now the game doesn't actually belong to you, it never did.

If the industry was smart, they would have had a linear progression of costs, but they're run by idiots who don't understand the market. Instead, they're baking these stupid anti-consumer things into the console, and selling the console on silly TV fluff and apps that half your entertainment center already runs. Because, sure, that will get people to buy a $500 monolith instead of a $50 Roku. Who the hell comes up with this shit?

Thus we're left with the consumers having to continue putting up with shitty decisions that negatively impact their side of the transaction because the fish move out of the way. It's about time people started getting pissed off.
Click to expand...
 
M

Minions

Member
Roki6 said:
Why not add Xbox tags and exec in this? It is industry wide issue and bad trend, why target it to just one company? I think it is not over and MS could change its mind if pushed from outside


Does GAF not want MS to change it's mind?
Click to expand...

I think more people think Microsoft won't change their mind than Sony. Microsoft has had the head honcho (VP) tell everyone DRM is a go. Sony has not spoken about it at all... and a current rumor says they are currently deciding if they should implement it after the debacle that Microsoft stirred up. If anything people want to be sure Sony knows how we feel and hopefully weighs everyone in their decision.
 
M

Minions

Member
The Spoony Hou said:
Shouldn't you tweet to Microsoft too? Or you all only care about Sony?
Click to expand...

You can tweet whatever you want. The reason this was started is a article saying sony has "stopped" their DRM to discuss whether to implement it. Microsoft is still (as far as we know) going.

Trust me Microsoft knows the outrage. Sony has been biding their time, and needs to know the fire is on their asses as well.
 
G

Gori

Member
The Spoony Hou said:
Shouldn't you tweet to Microsoft too? Or you all only care about Sony?
Click to expand...

The campaign is more powerful if it's like:

"Hey Sony, Microsoft has done something really stupid, now go on and prove you're on the side of the true gamer, by not doing the same! The whole world is watching!"

Also, Microsoft has already received their fair share of shit for this.
 
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