Seriously that need to be forwarded to every developer out there. Or to be some sticky hotlink in every Zenimax game thread.
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IGN: Bethesda tried to kill Human Head (Prey 2) to buy them at a cheap price
- Thread starter SolidSnakex
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Seriously that need to be forwarded to every developer out there. Or to be some sticky hotlink in every Zenimax game thread.
You sure like to attack me, huh? You'd have a point, but there is no evidence here - just quotes from two anonymous sources who tell one side of a story. IGN felt comfortable reporting this without any sort of documentation or other conclusive sourcing. I would not have. (As I told Mitch.) I have no doubt that it's true, but anonymous accusations are tricky territory, and when we're talking about a claim this serious, I wouldn't want to report those accusations without being able to share more than just quotes from unidentified sources.
killer rin
Member
Correct me if i'm wrong, and it might be a stupid question. But whats to stop the developer from saying "Fine you can have us, but we're selling all of our IPs to the studios CEO, declaring bankruptcy, quitting then forming a new studio around the ceo again". Or at the very least, transferring the IPs into someones hands within the studio so that a person owns the IPs instead of the studio owning them?
IceDoesntHelp
Banned
Bethesda has to own Fallout...why?
God dammit.
God dammit.
Dyack should become a consultant. He could really coach people through this process.
killer rin
Member
Well the people at Onlive did it, didn't they? They essentially said screw it while selling the IPs to another company (Onlive 2) the guy made while declaring bankruptcy at Onlive (1)
Theyll just get screwed out of a paycheck again.
Sure thing. There's a doctrine in contract law called promissory estoppel.
It basically states that when,
- Party A makes a promise to party B, and
- Party B relies on that promise to their detriment, and
- It is unconscionable for Party A to resile from that promise.
Party B can sue Party A in order to estopp (preclude) them from resiling from the promise.
In the current situation it appears that...
- Bethesda Softworks made a representation that Human Head would be granted additional time in order to complete their game.
- It appears that Human Head relied on that promise and would have likely rearranged their affairs and done some planning of their game in order to meet the new longer target.
- Bethesda Softwork resiled from this promise for what appears to be an unconscionable reason, to force Human Head into a position where they would be able to be bought.
This is not definitive but it seems like a prima facie instance of detrimental reliance to me.
rumors saying they starting with a completely new project and treating it like System Shock or something like that, from the other posts here it sound like HH is keeping the source code and maybe this is the reason for that(hopefully they don't get in a trouble because of this)
Apparently the situation with New Vegas could have ended much worse, if these allegations are true.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
Good thing I don't like Bethesda's games either so I don't have to give them money in the future
edit: Fuck, I forgot The Evil Within was published by them :/
edit: Fuck, I forgot The Evil Within was published by them :/
LQX
Member
Got to be kidding. That game looked amazing, at least on PC. The Doom3 engine was way underrated.
JoeyJungle
Banned
What a bunch of dicks, guess I'm not buying Bethesda games anymore.
fastballspecial
Member
Good on IGN for reporting on this. Anonymity of the sources doesn't bother me any because if they were named there'd probably be a backlash from someone, somewhere. Unless it's someone directly from Human Head, which it most likely is. They're apparently not under contract anymore so I'm sure they've got free reign to say whatever they want now.
With this story now out in the open with some degree of detail, I'm hoping Bethesda feels some heat and has to start answering questions about this and what's happened with them and other developers in the past.
With this story now out in the open with some degree of detail, I'm hoping Bethesda feels some heat and has to start answering questions about this and what's happened with them and other developers in the past.
A lot of he said/she kept quiet here, but you know what I don't trust Bethesda one bit after their anal legal bad faith letter-of-the-law approach to Mojang and Obsidian.
Glad Human Head got out of this intact. They might have been screwed on Prey 2 but they retained what's important, their talent and their studio. If Prey 2 really was as they claimed it was then their next game should be spectacular.
Glad Human Head got out of this intact. They might have been screwed on Prey 2 but they retained what's important, their talent and their studio. If Prey 2 really was as they claimed it was then their next game should be spectacular.
It would likely be impossible to prove detrimental reliance because the project wasn't going to be "done" within the time frame Bethesda actually gave them regardless of any planning. What's more, what constitutes as being done depends on what their contract (or more broadly agreement) says, which is another daunting obstacle in the way of evoking the doctrine. Not to mention that once both sides started playing hardball, the possibility went out of the window.
Is the fact that they were struggling to complete it on time determinative? I mean if that changed their behaviour and their approach to the work it appears to me that it would be something they relied upon to their detriment.
I'm a little out of my depth with the American doctrines as I'm an Australian lawyer. I assumed that they'd be largely similar in approach but it seems that the nuance in the American doctrine means pleading this would be difficult. Feel free to slap me down.
I don't think the allegations are as serious as the ones made against Silicon Knights and Denis Dyack, and Kotaku sure didn't have a problem running with those, despite the lack of any documentation.
That's fine, I'm not American either and not particularly likely to be any more knowledgeable than you are on the topic. It seems that overall the doctrine is evoked fairly rarely and the circumstances are far from ideal in this case. Just relying on the promise isn't enough as unconscionability is a high treshhold and the detriment implies real damages; what were the damages human head suffered? Did other factors contribute to those damages? Clearly yes, given that the article suggests that they were essentially on "a strike" at one point.
It's certainly possible to argue that the promise amounted to a change in their previous agreement and not rely on the promissory estoppel at all, but that argument would have had to be made at the time of the dispute. It doesn't even sound like Human Head thought that the Bethesda promise bound them.
That story did have multiple sources, and mentioned in the Kotaku article the attempt to contact the studio and Activision and even details the follow up footwork done to verify the details of the accusations the original anonymous source made. While it was a fairly one sided story, it's not correct to imply that no work was done or that no effort was made to allow Dyack and Activision a chance to present their side.
eot
Banned
Prey 1 started development in the mid 90's
I don't think those were more serious allegations. But regardless, look what happened: months later, Dyack denied everything and turned it into a he-said/they-said shouting match. Andrew's story was thorough, but you're right: it didn't have any sort of hard evidence that could indisputably prove what he wrote. That sort of thing is very difficult to obtain. Which is why I'm responding to this post...
...by saying that no, there is no evidence here.
stuminus3
Member
Independent game studios really need to stop talking to the big guys and start talking to the likes of Devolver Digital or something.
You know something is wrong when you'd be better off published by a company who has a CFO that isn't even a real person.
You know something is wrong when you'd be better off published by a company who has a CFO that isn't even a real person.
Wow, fuck Bethesda. I'm glad I never buy their games.
Still skeptical here. If this were true, word of this would've emerged when the story of work stoppage first emerged. If it is true and Human Head did not leak those details earlier (when it would've been particularly relevant), I don't have a great deal of faith in their competence.
The free market will probably fuck Bethesda in the ass when The Elder Scrolls Online bombs.
Spring-Loaded
Member
It could've been in their contract with Bethesda not to share such information until the contract's up. At that point, they may have still had hope a strike would change Bethesda's mind.
Not that they should've ever felt the need to go on strike in the first place.
You don't announce to the world that your publisher is for crap when there's hope you might work with them again. The belief that there's going to be a reconciliation just around the corner every other week can drag on for quite awhile.
bigboss370
Member
this is some egregious bullshit. That gameplay walkthrough of Prey 2 looked absolutely awesome, I want to play that game!
I understand the sentiment but it's a shame that everyone working under the name Bethesda now gets a bad image despite the disgusting practices mentioned in the thread were carried out by a few lowlifes, I assume.
Of course the victims here are human head, Prey was an amazing game and they deserved to make another one.
Poetic.Injustice
Member
What a scummy publisher. I mean even EA sends out partner games to die but this is a whole different level.
ymoc
Member
Sorry for choosing your post, but guys, l implore you not to have this kind of attitude.
Don't say "It's the way the cookie crumbles", "That's the hard truth."
This is a defeatist approach that we shouldn't have. It's what leads to silent acceptance. What happens when all good men turn their faces away? Are their hands really clean?
We need to set some BASIC MORAL standards in our society. I'm sick and tired of these scumbags getting away with so much bullshit because of the fact that nobody can touch them legally. And we're all learning to accept it, because of hey, what can one really do...sigh.
You've got to set these values for yourself first and then hold others to it as well.
A journalist that clearly sees a wrongdoing rather turns a blind eye because it's difficult to get the hard facts and is afraid of publishing "hearsay". Don't make me puke.
Well what are the HARD FACTS? The fact that people are being treated like shit? The fact that people in power are abusing it through legal gymnastics? The fact that publishers don't have a shred of humanity and ethics, that they have absolutely no honor? The fact that all these things can be obscured to the level of being nothing more than a gossip because there's no HARD FACTS and we're supposed to just accpet that? Have you no honor?
Do journalists have no sense of right? Should you not be the forerunners in the fight for the truth?
Gamers can and should support the developers!
I'm not buying a single Bethesda game as of today and I will continue to do so until the day it won't make me feel like a dishonored piece of shit for giving them my money again.
It's OK you chose my post, because I did not mean it the way you thought I did. Everyone knows I do not take any shit from developers, publishers and console manufacturers, whether it's Sony, Nintendo or Microsoft. I spent a generation deriding Nintendo for losing focus on the gamers who got them where they are and being obsessed with gimmicks; a generation disemboweling Sony for their ridiculous Blu-Ray -> price trade off which cost them the combined profits of every single system they made to date; and now I'm spending my daily time cutting Microsoft to ribbons over the horrendous anti-consumer policies.
I'm an equal opportunity hater. I hate because I love. I was saying *sigh* because I'm so sick and tired of companies in the industry doing fucked up shit like this, thus my sarcastic comment about it being "business."
Still, it's a good thing you made your post, because it's a good illustration about how we should all approach these soulless corporations. They are here to serve US, and they damn well better give in to our demands or one day they'll be sitting around the couch wondering how it is exactly they were where they are - a studio shuttered, a console failing, a company swallowing their arrogant words. It all comes around eventually, or else they fail. In the end, they always fail.
All I see in bethesda are suits and each has a Kotick in them. :/
The_Player
Member
They're id, not ID, GODDAMIT.
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