Support NeoGAF

[flatearthpandas]

Oh my oh my these days in hardcore forums crazy do fly.

Publishers aren't putting out games for Wii u right now because its very very difficult to be roi positive considering the console has declining momentum and its current user base is NOT BUYING ANY GAMES.

In before: ("But there aren't any games!!!")

There's no grand conspiracy. Near 80% of people who bought a Wii u bought nsmbu and nothing else. That'd all they want, Nintendo games. Nintendo needs to inject life in this system and attract people who buy more games and then more games will come. Those are the facts

Bullshit.
This argument is just total bullshit every time. If the PS4 and Xbone launched with late ports of Arkham City, Mass Effect 3, and the worst available version of Madden and CoD, with no DLC, they would sell like shit on those platforms too. It doesn't mean the audience doesn't exist, it just means the audience for shitty late ports doesn't exist. And that audience doesn't exist anywhere (except iOS, hopes Square Enix).

Ubisoft is the only publisher that even tried, and they were rewarded with acceptable sales.

 

[Scoot2005]

The conspiracy theorist in me says yes. I'm going to go change my tin foil hat to a more reflective type. Keeps kinects brainwave altering rays out better.

 

[goomba]

Nintendo with the massive amount of Wii U stock coming off the Wii is comparable to the supply constrained 360 coming off the Xbox? Also notice how the Wii U's momentum completely dies.


smh how this in any way comparable to not having systems on the shelves.

Those lines look pretty close to me, is anyone actually saying that Wii U sales wont improve once the game drought is over?

 

[Unison]

I'm not quoting you to single you out, just calling attention to this (constant) mentality. Which is a core forum mentality.

You're not looking at the bigger picture and the strategy of the Wii u launch.

Nintendo had the biggest single userbase in the industry. It made them lots of money. Nintendo loves Nintendo, that is the world they live in. If you look at that, nearly 100mm homes to re-engage and convert. They do research. Let's say they see a 40% overlap with at least one HD console. That's 60mm Wii owners who never played a single HD franchise. Couldnt play mass effect, assassins creed. So, put out an HD console, offer your audience access to dozens of franchises they didn't play. Offer s game pad and a new way to experience these things. Look at tablet trends and DD trends and social and add that too. Now, Nintendo has no experience in allocating reseouces for HD development. Oops, all our games slip. Let's work to bring in all those franchises our 60mm audience never played. Let's cut those deals, encourage that - cheaper for our partners, brings MAJOR BRANDS into our fold. Ups the age of our next wave. Everyone wins, while we take time to being our guns.

Wii u had nearly every major brand in gaming at launch. That's huge. The lineup was not weak at in their eyes. Very few consoles can claim that. Problem is? It didn't work. They didn't up convert their lapsed audience. Millions didn't care. The faithful, which has dwindled over the years as Nintendo was culling their own console output. So you have only the hardest of core Nintendo fans purchasing, look at that nsmbu attach rate! It's all they want. Nintendo needs to get their big guns out asap and start repositioning this system and spend some cash outside their core (for now, they've opted for a double down strategy instead) to builds a market third parties can also monetize.

Some are betting they can do that and are betting engines and teams ready, some are not. Investments vs. ROI Focused?

So, there's that, and I can't keep saying it anymore haha

I don't agree with the general thrust of this post... I'd say Wii U's biggest issue is a lack of a Wii Sports-style game that communicates the need for the system's unique hardware. Nintendoland failed to capture imaginations. Nothing they've announced as of yet seems to be a megahit game that could only be done on the system.

Secondly, it seems preposterous to suggest that Nintendo courted third parties mostly because they were anticipating major delays in their own launch lineup. The EA unprecedented partnership, for example, was announced over a year before launch, before Nintendo likely knew that many of their launch titles would be slipping six months or more. The third party lineup at the start was a fine exercise in tokenism... Yes, several big franchises were present, but usually in the form of inferior or late ports. Certainly there was nothing there that was a major third party exclusive that demonstrated real commitment to the platform, beyond the possible exception of Scribblenauts. Beyond launch, there were no major exclusive games announced from Western third parties that demonstrated this sort of commitment either, which means that support for the system was softer out of the gate than it was for the Wii.

Thirdly, anyone who's paid attention to the statements, unofficial and not, from third parties on Wii U over the last year should be able to understand that there's more going on here than the system being a poor business choice for game publishers. The level of rancor directed at Nintendo at times (from EA, Epic, etc...) is almost shocking to those of us who have followed the industry for a few generations. Perhaps this coarsening of dialogue is a sign of what passes for PR in the Twitter age, but maybe it's indicative of deeper philosophical differences.

Finally, I don't disagree that Nintendo games will sell best on Nintendo systems, and don't think Nintendo particularly wants to change this fact. They have repeatedly demonstrated this by not caving to third party demands and not making a publishing environment that's particularly attractive to them. It's not unimaginable to think that Nintendo would ignore pleas for the sort of DRM structure in Xbone. Whether they did or not is really just a matter of speculation, but the Origin eShop talk certainly suggests there were discussions along this line at one point.

 

[jtb]

Bullshit.
This argument is just total bullshit every time. If the PS4 and Xbone launched with late ports of Arkham City, Mass Effect 3, and the worst available version of Madden and CoD, with no DLC, they would sell like shit on those platforms too. It doesn't mean the audience doesn't exist, it just means the audience for shitty late ports doesn't exist. And that audience doesn't exist anywhere (except iOS, hopes Square Enix).

Ubisoft is the only publisher that even tried, and they were rewarded with acceptable sales.

the point doesn't have anything to do with whether the chicken or the egg came first, though. it doesn't really matter at this point. regardless of whether it's nintendo's fault or 3rd party's fault, at the end of the day, no one's buying games. and no one's been buying third party games on nintendo systems for a long long time.

why would anyone risk money on the wii u when the 360/ps3 and even xbone/ps4 are clearly much safer investments?

 

[goomba]

Nintendo with the massive amount of Wii U stock coming off the Wii is comparable to the supply constrained 360 coming off the Xbox? Also notice how the Wii U's momentum completely dies.


smh how this in any way comparable to not having systems on the shelves. Even if you do want to continue down this bad PS3/360 comparison it only will make Wii U start to look even deader than it already does as the months go on.

They are both excuses and neither change the fact that the sales of ps3, 360 and wii u after six months are close.

We shall have to wait and see what happens as the months go on and some big games actually come out for wii u.

 

[jblank83]

no one's been buying third party games on nintendo systems for a long long time.

Wii had a similar tie-in ratio to PS3 and 360. In addition, most of those sales were 3rd party titles. DS was and 3DS is similarly successful for 3rd parties.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

No they wouldn't. Publishers like money. If there is a shit ton of money to be made they will go after it. People forget Wii had the most games easily from 3rd parties. It was just shitware that people here don't want.

Publishers love money so much they plunged hundreds of millions behind two underperforming consoles that required a lot more time, money and work to develop for meanwhile they released shoddy, low quality and often broken games to the highest selling console by a wide margin that required significantly less time, money and work. They loved money so much most of them continued this strategy until they shutdown or plunged themselves massively in debt. There is a lot more than just money that goes into the decision making.

I'm not saying I agree with the OPs statement. However, if it was so simple as that things wouldve turned out much differently this past generation and in this coming one. For example after a publisher released a bunch of low quality/broken games they decided the Wii audience just doesn't buy 3rd party games even though the early years of the console proved otherwise. However, if lets say EA was unsatisfied with Dead Space's sales they evaluated what they did wrong with said game and made adjustments with the sequel(not that I was a fan as they ruined one of my favorite new ips).

The problem is much more deep rooted and its not a one sided thing either. Nintendo has/had policies in tact that may have dettered development(for example not handing out final dev kits until 6 months before release) as well as an unfortunate stigma surrounding them. Bad third party support isn't exclusive to Wii U as all Nintendo systems post SNES have experienced it to varying degrees. As most of the third party decisions on whether to develop for the platform were made before the horrible sales came through, a large part is on Nintendo for failing to communicate effectively or come up with an enticing platform for third parties. I imagine most third parties didn't choose to develop for it because no publisher was really willing to take a jump and put support behind it. The only one I could see the OP's theory working for is EA as they were jumping up and down over the system and then sometime last year scaled back and were pretty anemic to it. However, its also possible Nintendo backed out of some of their original plans for the Wii U as the online was originally described as more of a wild west style originally.

 

[goomba]

why would anyone risk money on the wii u when the 360/ps3 and even xbone/ps4 are clearly much safer investments?

How in the hell are xbone/ps4 investments safe?

 

[skull kid]

Bullshit.
This argument is just total bullshit every time. If the PS4 and Xbone launched with late ports of Arkham City, Mass Effect 3, and the worst available version of Madden and CoD, with no DLC, they would sell like shit on those platforms too. It doesn't mean the audience doesn't exist, it just means the audience for shitty late ports doesn't exist. And that audience doesn't exist anywhere (except iOS, hopes Square Enix).

Ubisoft is the only publisher that even tried, and they were rewarded with acceptable sales.

what about zombi u and black ops 2 ? AC 3 was 2 weeks late afaik...sales were bad all around, no?

 

[nullset2]

The DRM conundrum is not the whole picture, in regards to the Wii U underselling situation, but OP raises a very good point, I'm certain that it's definitely a factor for 3rd parties.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Those lines look pretty close to me, is anyone actually saying that Wii U sales wont improve once the game drought is over?

They will, but if you think this is the only game drought the Wii U is going to have, you're sorely mistaken.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

why would anyone risk money on the wii u when the 360/ps3 and even xbone/ps4 are clearly much safer investments?

There's no indication PS4/X1 will sell truckloads at the launch, this is assumption.

 

[flatearthpandas]

what about zombi u and black ops 2 ? AC 3 was 2 weeks late afaik...sales were bad all around, no?

ZombiU sold decently, especially for a relatively low-budget niche title. Ubisoft said they were happy with sales.

Blops2 was out before the Wii U launched and has no DLC.

 

[goomba]

They will, but if you think this is the only game drought the Wii U is going to have, you're sorely mistaken.

And I guess your saying ps4/xbone will never have game droughts?, Ok Nostradamus

 

[jtb]

Wii had a similar tie-in ratio to PS3 and 360. In addition, most of those sales were 3rd party titles. DS was and 3DS is similarly successful for 3rd parties.

citation needed. Sonic and Mario, Just Dance.... ? finding software numbers is a pain in the ass.

I'm also skeptical of the tie-in ratio (dat wii sports...) but really I don't care about that either way.

There's no indication PS4/X1 will sell truckloads at the launch, this is assumption.

I said it's low-risk. It's just 360/PS3 with more power, just like how those were PS2/Xbox with more power. Even if they don't set the world on fire, they know there's a base of gamers that will buy at least one of those consoles and buy a lot of software. There are no certainties, no shit. but it's low risk. I'm not even sure how this could be up for debate.

the hardcore flocked to the 360 and bought a ton of software in the first year presumably because they want something new w/ better graphics. and the wii U clearly isn't targeting them.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

And I guess your saying ps4/xbone will never have game droughts?, Ok Nostradamus

They won't have as many droughts as the Wii U is going to, and the droughts won't be as severe.

 

[goomba]

They won't have as many droughts as the Wii U is going to, and the droughts won't be as severe.

Can i borrow that crystal ball of yours please?

 

[AOC83]

Can i borrow that crystal ball of yours please?

You don´t need a crystal ball for common sense. These consoles have the complete industry behind them, assuming they´ll ever have droughts like the WiiU is laughable.

 

[goomba]

You on´t need a crytall ball for common sense.

Like all the 'common sense ' a few years back that said the ps3 and 360 would destroy the wii?

I'm not assuming anything, I just hate the "this will happen" type posts as if they are fact.

 

[jtb]

Can i borrow that crystal ball of yours please?

Third parties are developing for Xbone/PS4. Third parties are not developing for Wii U. therefore, more games. therefore, fewer droughts. logic.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

I said it's low-risk. It's just 360/PS3 with more power, just like how those were PS2/Xbox with more power. Even if they don't set the world on fire, they know there's a base of gamers that will buy at least one of those consoles and buy a lot of software. There are no certainties, no shit. but it's low risk. I'm not even sure how this could be up for debate.

the hardcore flocked to the 360 and bought a ton of software in the first year presumably because they want something new w/ better graphics. and the wii U clearly isn't targeting them.

You talk like PS3/360 crowd will automatically migrate to PS4/Xbone when they arrive. They won't. PS2/Xbox crowd didn't jump to PS3/360 instantly either. It took a time.

PS4/Xbone, at this point, is as risky as WiiU, especially if you bring nextgen multiplatform versions of games they can play for PS3/360 and the graphical difference between both generations will probably be minimal this year.

 

[AOC83]

Like all the 'common sense ' a few years back that the ps3 and 360 would destroy the wii?

What has this to do with anything? Just focus on the subject and not some made up bullshit.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

What has this to do with anything? Just focus on the subject and not some made up bullshit.

Oh the irony

 

[GamerJM]

I don't think TC is right, but I think the situation he proposes is a lot more valid than a tin-hat conspiracy. The 360/PS3 are still getting games because third-parties won't sell enough copies for their massive budget games if they put their games only on consoles with low install bases. So 360/PS3 is more of a necessity than anything. The lack of Wii U versions could potentially be because third-parties approached Nintendo about having some form of DRM in their console, and they outright refused.

Again, I don't think that what TC stated is what is actually going down with the Wii U, but I think it's a possible situation. Regardless this whole thing is very, very shady.

 

[goomba]

What has this to do with anything? Just focus on the subject and not some made up bullshit.

It has to do with it because that was a similar common perception which proved totally wrong. You can't talk about the future with such certainty.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Bullshit.
This argument is just total bullshit every time. If the PS4 and Xbone launched with late ports of Arkham City, Mass Effect 3, and the worst available version of Madden and CoD, with no DLC, they would sell like shit on those platforms too. It doesn't mean the audience doesn't exist, it just means the audience for shitty late ports doesn't exist. And that audience doesn't exist anywhere (except iOS, hopes Square Enix).

Ubisoft is the only publisher that even tried, and they were rewarded with acceptable sales.

Xbox 360 DID launch with the worst version of Madden, missing lots of big core features that the previous gen version had. And guess what, it sold well.

 

[jtb]

You talk like PS3/360 crowd will automatically migrate to PS4/Xbone when they arrive. They won't. PS2/Xbox crowd didn't jump to PS3/360 instantly either. It took a time.

PS4/Xbone, at this point, is as risky as WiiU, especially if you bring nextgen multiplatform versions of games they can play for PS3/360 and the graphical difference between both generations will probably be minimal this year.

well the guys with the money have focused the development on xbone/ps4 and current gen stuff so clearly they think both of those are lower risk options than the wii u.

 

[goomba]

well the guys with the money have focused the development on xbone/ps4 and current gen stuff so clearly they think both of those are lower risk options than the wii u.

Just as they backed ps3/360 over wii for the same reason.

 

[GhostTrick]

Publishers are just expecting Wii U owners to buy inferior late ports. IMO, they can keep their shitty ports. EA is just the best exemple here. They're blaming Wii U owners for no FIFA 14 on Wii U. What were they thinking ? That people would buy a 70€ FIFA 12 version ?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Because they are comparable

Firstly you're still pretending that the 360 selling 400K/35% more systems and the PS3 selling 160K/15% more systems in the equivalent time frame, despite the hurdles of ridiculous price and/or supply constraint, is insignificant. And ignoring that those sales, despite being higher, weren't considered good.

Secondly, you're still pretending that the one good week of sales in November last year is relevant to the system's current sales trajectory. It isn't, any more than November 2006 PS3 sales being "okay" had no bearing on the fact that the PS3 was selling abysmally in April 2007. Face reality and see that the system sold less than 10K a week in US market in April, half of those abysmal PS3 sales, it is not selling anything like the PS3 and 360 were.

 

[jtb]

Just as they backed ps3/360 over wii for the same reason.

I'm not saying PS4/Xbone are going to outsell the Wii U. I'm saying developing for the PS4/Xbone is lower risk (ie. higher ROI) than developing for the Wii U. and, yeah, judging by the last generation—that seems to be a pretty good bet seeing how many devs simply couldn't figure out (or didn't bother) how to properly develop for the Wii.

blame it on laziness or shitty devs or whatever—it doesn't change the fact that they have consistently thought developing for Nintendo wasn't worth the hassle. these are companies whose sole goal is to make money so clearly they don't think they're leaving much money on the table.

 

[goomba]

Firstly you're still pretending that the 360 selling 400K/35% more systems and the PS3 selling 160K/15% more systems in the equivalent time frame, despite the hurdles of ridiculous price and/or supply constraint, is insignificant. And ignoring that those sales, despite being higher, weren't considered good.

Secondly, you're still pretending that the one good week of sales in November last year is relevant to the system's current sales trajectory. It isn't, any more than November 2006 PS3 sales being "okay" had no bearing on the fact that the PS3 was selling abysmally in April 2007. Face reality and see that the system sold less than 10K a week in US market in April, half of those abysmal PS3 sales, it is not selling anything like the PS3 and 360 were.

I'm not pretending anything, just look at the fucking lines. Excuses about hardware shortages/ game droughts etc aside, you cant change them. Which show 360/ps3/wii u all close in total userbase after six months.

 

[jtb]

I'm not pretending anything, just look at the fucking lines. Excuses aside you cant change them.

and in 12 months, the lines will look very bad for wii U and then you won't have anything to cling to.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

Like all the 'common sense ' a few years back that said the ps3 and 360 would destroy the wii?

I'm not assuming anything, I just hate the "this will happen" type posts as if they are fact.

Just because someone doesn't write "IMO" in front of everything they write doesn't mean they're trying to pass their views off as facts.

Whatever though, you've already demonstrated that you aren't worth replying to.

 

[jblank83]

citation needed. Sonic and Mario, Just Dance.... ? finding software numbers is a pain in the ass.

I'm also skeptical of the tie-in ratio (dat wii sports...) but really I don't care about that either way.

Nintendo released lifetime software sales numbers for Wii some time ago, during one of their financial disclosures.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2012/04/nintendo_reveals_console_and_software_sales_statistics

Here's a direct link to the 2012 annual report. Warning, it's a large document.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2012/annual1203e.pdf

The takeaway is that Nintendo's own franchises don't come anywhere near 820 million units sold, though they are somewhere around 275-300 million of those sales. Hence the majority of software titles sold are 3rd party, by deductive logic.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

I'm not saying PS4/Xbone are going to outsell the Wii U. I'm saying developing for the PS4/Xbone is lower risk (ie. higher ROI) than developing for the Wii U. and, yeah, judging by the last generation—that seems to be a pretty good bet seeing how many devs simply couldn't figure out (or didn't bother) how to properly develop for the Wii.

blame it on laziness or shitty devs or whatever—it doesn't change the fact that they have consistently thought developing for Nintendo wasn't worth the hassle. these are companies whose sole goal is to make money so clearly they don't think they're leaving much money on the table.

If they believe PS4/Xbone are lower risk options at this point, then Unison's theory holds more consistency.

 

[AOC83]

It has to do with it because that was a similar common perception which proved totally wrong. You can't talk about the future with such certainty.

Sony and Microsoft having full industry support is not a common perception but a straight out fact.

 

[goomba]

and in 12 months, the lines will look very bad for wii U and then you won't have anything to cling to.

Oh you''ve got a crystal ball too.

Im not even saying what I think will happen, just pointing out the current situation and comparing it to history.

 

[jtb]

If they believe PS4/Xbone are lower risk options at this point, then Unison's theory holds more consistency.

and what was the excuse last gen? and the gen before that? occam's razor is my stance on this.

Nintendo released lifetime software sales numbers for Wii some time ago, during one of their financial disclosures.
http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2012/04/nintendo_reveals_console_and_software_sales_statistics

Here's a direct link to the 2012 annual report. Warning, it's a large document.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2012/annual1203e.pdf

The takeaway is that Nintendo's own franchises don't come anywhere near 820 million units sold, though they are somewhere around 275-300 million of those sales. Hence the majority of software titles sold are 3rd party, by deductive logic.

thanks for this. I will provide more analysis once I skim through it.

 

[hesido]

If they had confidence that the game would sell on the WiiU, they would put it on the WiiU, much like they are putting it on the PS3 and 360, which also have "last gen DRM"

They sure can't ignore the userbase of the last gen, but they may want to start with a "clean slate". They may feel they have to start at some point, so the idea in the original post still has merit, I believe.

 

[goomba]

Sony and Microsoft having full industry support is not a common perception but a straight out fact.

What does ''full industry support" even mean? Wii U had all the major publishers when it launched too

 

[flatearthpandas]

the point doesn't have anything to do with whether the chicken or the egg came first, though. it doesn't really matter at this point. regardless of whether it's nintendo's fault or 3rd party's fault, at the end of the day, no one's buying games. and no one's been buying third party games on nintendo systems for a long long time.

why would anyone risk money on the wii u when the 360/ps3 and even xbone/ps4 are clearly much safer investments?

Except, if I remember correctly, the Wii has the highest attach rate of Gen 7 with something like 9. Someone in this thread mentioned that the Wii version of CoD outsold the PS3 version at the beginning of the gen.

Things are a lot more complicated than people try to paint them. A lot of these examples are situations where Nintendo was basically set up to fail.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I'm not pretending anything, just look at the fucking lines. Excuses aside you cant change them.

I looked at the "fucking lines". I don't need to change the "fucking lines" as they don't indicate what you seem to think they do.

I see an Xbox 360 line that is substantially higher than the Wii U's at 400K more units sold. I see a PS3 line that is nominally close on the scale used to the Wii U's, although still 160K above.

I see a 360 line with a much greater recent slope than the Wii U line, indicating a much greater rate of sales.

I see a PS3 line with a greater recent slope than the Wii U line, indicating a greater rate of sales.

I see a graph that doesn't show similar sales curves.

Excuses aside, you can't change the bars on the graph I posted. It is not selling anything like the PS3 and 360 were, regardless of whether it's LTD is within 160K of the PS3 or 400K of the 360.

 

[TreasureHunterG]

and what was the excuse last gen? and the gen before that? occam's razor is my stance on this.

I don't get it. What are you talking about? Are you asking me what was the excuse for Wii and GCN not getting third-party support, is that it?

 

[goomba]

I looked at the "fucking lines".

I see an Xbox 360 line that is substantially higher than the Wii U's at 400K more units sold. I see a PS3 line that is nominally close on the scale used to the Wii U's, although still 160K above.

I see a 360 line with a much greater slope than the Wii U line.

I see a PS3 line with a greater slope than the Wii U line.

I see a graph that doesn't indicate what you think it does.

Excuses aside, you can't change the bars on the graph I posted. It is not selling anything like the PS3 and 360 were, regardless of whether it's LTD is within 160K of the PS3 or 400K of the 360.

No currently its not selling like the ps3/360 , i never said otherwise, just that they are close in total userbase after six months, glad we can agree on that.

 

[Skull Leader]

They are both excuses and neither change the fact that the sales of ps3, 360 and wii u after six months are close.

We shall have to wait and see what happens as the months go on and some big games actually come out for wii u.

You might be able to work this spin if the PS3 was the only console being discussed in comparison to the Wii U, but the 360 ended up selling almost a half million consoles more in 6 months despite its own bevy of issues. That doesn't exactly scream 'close' in my book, not at this stage in the game.

What games are coming out over the next three months that will suddenly get the Wii selling back above 10k a week in Japan on a regular basis, much less grant the system a sustainable improvement in every other region? At its current trend, the Wii U is going to start looking significantly worse than the PS3 and 360.

We might see some shit at E3, but to fix the Wii U's situation in Japan, those games are likely not even going to show up at E3.

 

[NBtoaster]

How in the hell are xbone/ps4 investments safe?

Well the traditional gaminng industry wont survive if they aren't successful.

Everyone is invested in next gen tech and next gen IPs.

 

[Templar_Dante]

it may be a factor but the situation is basically the same as when 3rd parties shunned wii (to start with). they thought it would bomb because its graphics wernt as good plus they get better incentives from sony and ms.

Thats what Im thinking.. they want to shun PS4 too if they dont bend to their will..

 

[shinra-bansho]

No currently its not selling like the ps3/360 , i never said otherwise, just that they are close in total userbase after six months, glad we can agree on that.

It hasn't been selling like the PS3 or 360 for 4 months now, when May NPD rolls in, it will be 5. January is no longer current.

It's sales curve is nothing like the other two. To deny so is fallacy.