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Penny Arcade reopens the "dickwolves" controversy
- Thread starter darkpower
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Unhandled Exception
Member
I agree with this and the thing is I don't even have a problem with the comic itself personally, but I also don't find it funny. It's difficult to get laughs out of something messed up like rape when you can't directly control the timing of delivery. A good stand up comedian would get a lot more mileage out of a similar joke.
PairOfFilthySocks
Member
I never really understood the dickwolves controversy. I think the strip kinda sucks, but that's because I just think it's a crummy joke, not because it has the word rape in it. Is rape off-bounds for comedy in all forms? Because I didn't see the uproar when, say, Chappelle did it.
Did they mention if they would kickstarting another year of no ads on the homepage?
so everyone is happy that booth babes are banned but this is totally unacceptable?
mr teaspoon
Member
Except they (or, at least, Mike) actively participated in encouraging at least some level of antagonism back towards the critics.
He may not be responsible for the levels his idiot fans went to, but he's still partially responsible for it happening at all by turning into an censorship/IF YOU HATE THIS COMIC YOU HATE FREEDOM issue.
snoopeasystreet
Member
The joke wasn't that based but they way PA handled themselves afterwards is shocking. Everyone says a dumb thing now and then and for the most part, people are willing to let it fly if you come out afterwards and say "yeah, sorry about that, I didn't intend on insulting people". Actively egging on the people insulted by your remarks is just petty, if you really standby what you said, just ignore them.
ThreePiMatt
Member
Threats were directed at Mike's family as well. You can't hold Penny Arcade responsible for the actions of its fans unless they explicitly gave these people the suggestion to do such a thing.
lazorexplosion
Member
I like how The Offended spin it as if the joke itself and the initial offended response is totally irrelevant now, and now it's PA's supposedly insufficiently sensitive response to their outrage that's the issue. This is probably because being offended by the comic is indefensibly ridiculous.
Maybe people whose offendedness is ridiculous deserved to be ridiculed.
Maybe people whose offendedness is ridiculous deserved to be ridiculed.
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
I'm still mad about the podcast kickstarter. I mean that was just taking advantage of the stupid and making easy profits. As for dickwolves...... rape isn't funny even if a clown is involved.
It always weirded me out that so many people got upset over that comic. Really didn't seem like that big a deal. Its Penny Arcade - what did you except? They've made more inappropriate jokes than that before. I found the comic funny and still do (More so the concept of dick wolves, rather than being raped by dick wolves, but even so, I'm ok with the comic).
These people who got offended by that comic - I wonder how they feel about South Park. The show probably makes their blood boil. Its fucking satire.
These people who got offended by that comic - I wonder how they feel about South Park. The show probably makes their blood boil. Its fucking satire.
JeTmAn81
Member
The dickwolves thing was never a rape joke, btw. It was a joke about ludonarrative dissonance. Neither rape nor physical beatings are condoned or portrayed as funny. The joke is that the player character doesn't treat these things seriously in spite playing a heroic role in the narrative of the game.
mentallyinept
Banned
This is actually the crux of the situation.
Did they have to use rape bit? No.
Did they? Yes.
From there, feminists ask more questions, which, to them, the answers are no longer clear:
What does this say about PA's attitude toward rape in our society? (Nothing/Something)
Does this mean PA doesn't think rape is a serious issue? (Yes/No)
Unfortunately, these questions weren't really asked. The reaction to this was that rape was used in a humorous capacity (the link to the initial reaction) and that really sucks because people are actually raped in the world.
Now, to PA, the rape being referred to in this case had absolutely no bearing on the joke whatsoever so trying to say this comic was a "rape joke" doesn't really make sense to them. To them, branding the comic as a "rape joke" that perpetuates "rape culture" is so out of left field that it sounds a hell of a lot like censorship. Especially when their comic strip features, or at least used to feature, an actual (fruit) rapist in the "Fruit Fucker".
And if it's one thing artists hate, it's censorship. From there the super-defensive, and then offensive reaction to the censorship began.
The rest is a long history of escalation from both sides.
*This post kinda got away from me here, hopefully people get the point.*
I don't believe it, there's no way people would act that way on the internet.
seriously though, i don't think you can blame PA if some of their fans are shit heads. Also, if Mike is such a shit head, people ought to stop paying attention to him. So much effort goes into tearing this guy down that could be better spent propping good things up. It's not worth it.
hahaha no they don't.
The internet let something go hahahaha, man that is a good one. Woo I needed that laugh today, thanks!
entremet
Member
I see nothing wrong with this.
budkin
Neo Member
This pretty much sums it up. He should have used something other than rape to show how the NPCs were suffering. It undermined the entire punchline of the strip.
Unhandled Exception
Member
Interficium
Banned
So are you saying that if they allow Dickwolves they should allow 75% nude girls or?
Speaking of blowing things out of porportion...
This is the kind of response you would make if the PA guys went around actually raping people rather than just kind of throwing a bit of a hissy fit one time.
This is the kind of response you would make if the PA guys went around actually raping people rather than just kind of throwing a bit of a hissy fit one time.
I agree with people saying that the original comic isn't as big of a problem as Penny Arcade's response to the reaction to it. I think it's how someone responds to other people being offended that really means something, and it's clear that the PA guys aren't listening or internalizing the complaints people have been having for years now.
But I also disagree with people yelling "The comic isn't wrong because the comic isn't even about rape!" If the comic isn't about rape, and it would be just as funny without rape, then why did they put SO MUCH RAPE IN IT? There is a lot of talk about the first amendment, but to get behind that defense, someone kind of needs to be SAYING SOMETHING, and the Penny Arcade guys aren't. They told a good joke and made a neat comic that was about MMOs, but then also made it about rape because they live in a privileged circle where they haven't been affected by that. All of which I could easily forgive (WE ALL SAY STUPID STUFF SOMETIMES) if their response to the reaction had been better.
Honestly, what offends me the most is that the Penny Arcade guys have this platform, they have this audience, they have the first amendment, and they use it all to tell rape jokes that don't even have to be rape jokes. Every time it looks like they may be growing creatively, maturing as artists, they retreat back into dumb jokes and immaturity. And I LOVE DUMB JOKES, but dumb jokes can say something to. And I love immaturity, but not when it's in response to mature, serious topics. So much creative freedom, yet they're choosing to continue a fight from THREE YEARS AGO, instead of making awesome stuff and growing as creative artists.
There are a lot of people yelling about the "liberals" and "feminists" "over-reacting" to a joke. Artists make work that reflects the world, is interpreting by the world, is judged by the world, and ultimately changes the world. To say that no one should react to the art isn't something that people who appreciate an artist's work should be doing. Instead, the people who appreciate the artist's work should be frustrated that those artists are creatively repeating themselves, are not growing as people or artists, and instead of making new art are opening old wounds, seemingly yelling EARLIER I MADE IT SEEM LIKE I HAD LEARNED SOMETHING ABOUT THE WORLD BUT I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT I HAVEN'T LEARNED ANYTHING AND IF I COULD DO IT OVER AGAIN I WOULD BE EVEN MORE OF A DICKWOLF ABOUT IT.
It's an attitude that would be rockstar and admirable if they were right, but they're not right. The original comic is a joke about MMOs and would be funnier to a wider audience if it was not about rape. Their response to the controversy has been embarrassing and short-sighted. This weekend they yelled loudly about how they wish they had been even more wrong, and a bunch of people applauded them for it. This isn't a fight about the first amendment, it isn't an argument over which sort of rape joke is acceptable, it's a story about artists failing to meet their potential. It's all pretty sad.
But I also disagree with people yelling "The comic isn't wrong because the comic isn't even about rape!" If the comic isn't about rape, and it would be just as funny without rape, then why did they put SO MUCH RAPE IN IT? There is a lot of talk about the first amendment, but to get behind that defense, someone kind of needs to be SAYING SOMETHING, and the Penny Arcade guys aren't. They told a good joke and made a neat comic that was about MMOs, but then also made it about rape because they live in a privileged circle where they haven't been affected by that. All of which I could easily forgive (WE ALL SAY STUPID STUFF SOMETIMES) if their response to the reaction had been better.
Honestly, what offends me the most is that the Penny Arcade guys have this platform, they have this audience, they have the first amendment, and they use it all to tell rape jokes that don't even have to be rape jokes. Every time it looks like they may be growing creatively, maturing as artists, they retreat back into dumb jokes and immaturity. And I LOVE DUMB JOKES, but dumb jokes can say something to. And I love immaturity, but not when it's in response to mature, serious topics. So much creative freedom, yet they're choosing to continue a fight from THREE YEARS AGO, instead of making awesome stuff and growing as creative artists.
There are a lot of people yelling about the "liberals" and "feminists" "over-reacting" to a joke. Artists make work that reflects the world, is interpreting by the world, is judged by the world, and ultimately changes the world. To say that no one should react to the art isn't something that people who appreciate an artist's work should be doing. Instead, the people who appreciate the artist's work should be frustrated that those artists are creatively repeating themselves, are not growing as people or artists, and instead of making new art are opening old wounds, seemingly yelling EARLIER I MADE IT SEEM LIKE I HAD LEARNED SOMETHING ABOUT THE WORLD BUT I WANTED TO MAKE IT CLEAR THAT I HAVEN'T LEARNED ANYTHING AND IF I COULD DO IT OVER AGAIN I WOULD BE EVEN MORE OF A DICKWOLF ABOUT IT.
It's an attitude that would be rockstar and admirable if they were right, but they're not right. The original comic is a joke about MMOs and would be funnier to a wider audience if it was not about rape. Their response to the controversy has been embarrassing and short-sighted. This weekend they yelled loudly about how they wish they had been even more wrong, and a bunch of people applauded them for it. This isn't a fight about the first amendment, it isn't an argument over which sort of rape joke is acceptable, it's a story about artists failing to meet their potential. It's all pretty sad.
Eh, it's not like Child's Play is the only charity and PAX is the only nerd con.
mentallyinept
Banned
Lmao.
"that's a tough phone call to make "
I think that post is basically: Game. Set. Match. For those against rape jokes.
Note: I've only heard about this situation from this thread.
I would assume wearing a dickwolf shirt is a defense against needless censorship. The rape joke, if you want to call it that, was not making light of rape or endorsing it. In fact, they used rape since it is such a horrible act, one that one would not want to go through once, let alone every night.
I don't know what is going on in modern society when an artist is attacked for mentioning a particular subject.
edit: And I'd like to point out that the PA guys have said some stupid shit, and I'm not a particular fan. I just hate when a mountain is made out of a molehill. I do think they could have at least put out a message apologizing if anyone was offended.
That Jessica Nigri thing seems legit.
Just because her costume is based on a videogame character does not excuse it from being tasteless or showing too much skin. A lot of cons have similar rules (like comicon) because they want to be family friends and don't want regular average joes to think that their conferences are excuses to have women or teenage girls (or guys!) with ultra sleazy costumes parading around. There's also the issue that sadly a lot of people can't handle themselves and will act like total creeps around women in revealing costumes.
My only experience with 'cons' is the Montreal Comic Con, and everytime I went there, I saw quite a few people who were acting like total creeps to the point of even considering flagging security about them.
I remember one creepy guy who kept bugging this girl who cosplayed as Scarlett from Mortal Kombat and was obviously making her feel mega uncomfortable and would keep stealth taking pics of her legs and crotch area and there was this guy who jumped over a table while running behind those two girls who were cosplaying as some characters while taking pics of the behind of their legs and behind.
thats why I think those rules about nudity/mega revealing outfits are important -- to keep away creepos like those guys.
The woman I went with last year is a pro photographer and she was a bit turned off about comicon because of those kind of people and kept being verbal about 'grown men pushing each other to take pictures of underages girls in costumes' the entire day.
Just because her costume is based on a videogame character does not excuse it from being tasteless or showing too much skin. A lot of cons have similar rules (like comicon) because they want to be family friends and don't want regular average joes to think that their conferences are excuses to have women or teenage girls (or guys!) with ultra sleazy costumes parading around. There's also the issue that sadly a lot of people can't handle themselves and will act like total creeps around women in revealing costumes.
My only experience with 'cons' is the Montreal Comic Con, and everytime I went there, I saw quite a few people who were acting like total creeps to the point of even considering flagging security about them.
I remember one creepy guy who kept bugging this girl who cosplayed as Scarlett from Mortal Kombat and was obviously making her feel mega uncomfortable and would keep stealth taking pics of her legs and crotch area and there was this guy who jumped over a table while running behind those two girls who were cosplaying as some characters while taking pics of the behind of their legs and behind.
thats why I think those rules about nudity/mega revealing outfits are important -- to keep away creepos like those guys.
The woman I went with last year is a pro photographer and she was a bit turned off about comicon because of those kind of people and kept being verbal about 'grown men pushing each other to take pictures of underages girls in costumes' the entire day.
freenudemacusers
Member
I would think the average person, upon witnessing someone wearing a 'team dickwolves' shirt, would not immediately think about censorship.
disastermouse
Banned
Riiiiiiggggghhhhttttt....
So you know Doug Stanhope and Louis C.K. exist, right? They exist because they don't listen to every little whiney person with an opinion. They are both hilarious.
The Dickwolves comic was also hilarious and you had to go out of your way to be offended by it.
Hadn't heard that, but then again I don't read PA.
the comic was tasteless and stupid
people's reaction to and criticism of the comic was just that, and not a call for censorship
gabe going out of his way to taunt survivors of sexual assault for years afterwards is fucking despicable, and i think people and companies should stop going to pax
people's reaction to and criticism of the comic was just that, and not a call for censorship
gabe going out of his way to taunt survivors of sexual assault for years afterwards is fucking despicable, and i think people and companies should stop going to pax
BobbyRobby
Member
apologizing and pulling the merch seems like a dumb move. the outrage will subside because people are constantly looking for new things to be offended by.
before me grandpa died he didn't like watching any war movies because it triggered bad memories from WWII. but he never wanted war movies to be banned, nor did he want to prevent other people from watching movies about war. he just decided it wans't for him anymore.
trying to censor others is not a noble cause like some feminists will try and lead you to believe.
before me grandpa died he didn't like watching any war movies because it triggered bad memories from WWII. but he never wanted war movies to be banned, nor did he want to prevent other people from watching movies about war. he just decided it wans't for him anymore.
trying to censor others is not a noble cause like some feminists will try and lead you to believe.
Illithid Dude
Member
there's a character in penny arcade that rapes fruit. no one has ever complained about that. suddenly, when wolves come into the picture, everything is blown out of proportion.
Don't think you really understand what censorship is. Standing up against censorship is standing up for your right to say things. At no point in anything anywhere were Penny Arcade in danger of being censored.
Wearing a dickwolves shirt is celebrating your right to be a douche... which everyone has, but the exercise of which does actually make you a douche so. "I understand this upsets a lot of people and I hear it hurts you, so look upon me and be unhappy" is a shitty flag to fly.
I wish they'd sold 'em so I'd know who never to talk or listen to.
Saying that they shouldn't call themselves "family friendly" and putting on a front when they do idiotic shit like flame baiting the Dickwolves scenario. And they should make it clear what is or isn't acceptable instead of looking as though they're making up the rules as they go along.
And they should stop making it look like they are just flaunting their might-be misogynistic attitudes. Perhaps THAT'S the real question at this point.
ColonelColon
Member
FFS, the point of using "raped to sleep by dickwolves" in the joke is that it's brutal and absurd, but the protagonist doesn't care because he's already finished his quest. The joke doesn't work if the reader doesn't think the victim is suffering, so it's obviously not making rape out to be an acceptable thing to do. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to not notice the context. I can't believe that feminists and "social justice warrriors" make me want to defend things that I don't even like.
partyphone
Banned
What censorship? No one is being censored.
You can use free speech as a shield against criticism. Guess what, the terrible things you say can have consequences.
You can use free speech as a shield against criticism. Guess what, the terrible things you say can have consequences.
mentallyinept
Banned
If I remember correctly, it was originally sold pre-PAX as a protest shirt to be worn there. Mike went on twitter saying he was going to be proudly wearing his at PAX.
Wearing that out in public will definitely get you some really weird looks.
I don't think they'd think about rape either. They'd just think "hey, that shirts has the word dick on it."
The saddest part is Mike continues to try to paint himself as some sort of victim in the situation. They knowingly play to their marks (I don't even call them fans) who wrap their self identity up in Gabe and Tycho.
Mike's skin is thinner than paper and he's eventually going to torch the PA empire to get back at someone.
And then nobody did
Mike's skin is thinner than paper and he's eventually going to torch the PA empire to get back at someone.
And then nobody did
lazorexplosion
Member
It seems like you're kinda giving up on trying to paint the comic itself as offensive.
So if the comic is now apparently not offensive enough to be the issue anymore, then isn't it the case that people who took offense at it were being kinda ridiculous? Oh PA ridiculed them for their ridiculous offense-taking, oh the horror, the misogyny and patriarchy oh no. It's so offensive of PA to do that. Oh no.
Neuromancer
Member
Haha
Yes, good lord, fucking exactly. The joke is in no way about rape, it just happens to name rape as something that is really, really bad that is happening to this NPC and the player still doesn't care. That's the joke: the quest is over and the playable hero doesn't care what happens to the NPCs left behind, even if it's something really, really awful like rape.
It is in no way at all a rape joke and you really, really have to make an effort and be as willfully ignorant as possible to label it as such.
Seriously?
Censorship doesn't just pop up overnight. And people don't need to fight against censorship in order to protect the popular ideas.
When people say certain types of jokes are inappropriate and need to not be told anymore, that is a threat of censorship.
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