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Ars Technica: Penello's XB1 Numbers, Ars "Sniff Test" Analysis

J

Jeels

Member
This was expected when the posts were made and its good to see a website call them out on it. I'm sure there are people on the forums though who will disregard this and continue to believe whatever they want.

I'm sure Penello has good intentioms, but I think its upsetting that a PR person can come on GAF, spout lies, or at the very least misleading information, and get away with it. Yet when people call him out on it, the thread gets closed.
 
N

Neuromancer

Member
Jeels said:
This was expected when the posts were made and its good to see a website call them out on it. I'm sure there are people on the forums though who will disregard this and continue to believe whatever they want.

I'm sure Penello has good intentioms, but I think its upsetting that a PR person can come on GAF, spout lies, or at the very least misleading information, and get away with it. Yet when people call him out on it, the thread gets closed.
Click to expand...
It got closed because Albert left, people started sniping each other and no valuable discussion was really going on after a certain point.
 
J

jaypah

Member
Jeels said:
This was expected when the posts were made and its good to see a website call them out on it. I'm sure there are people on the forums though who will disregard this and continue to believe whatever they want.

I'm sure Penello has good intentioms, but I think its upsetting that a PR person can come on GAF, spout lies, or at the very least misleading information, and get away with it. Yet when people call him out on it, the thread gets closed.
Click to expand...

How did he "get away with it"? He got ran into the ground by tech-GAF and they dug up the corpse and used it to snowboard down Fact Mountain in this thread. What more do you want to happen? A ban? I can't help with that one.
 
T

ThoughtsOfSpeaking

Banned
Untalkative_Bunny said:
I meant credential wise, you know BA/BS in marketing, that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

To be fair, id be bloody shocked if Major nelson or penello did either. Besides, thats no indication of a ability to deal with the media anyway. A marketing degree is best used in more traditional advertising, not the relatively new skill of social media canvassing.
 
A

artist

Banned
Moral Panic said:
I highly doubt this is true. If so AMD/Nvidia would just keep adding CU's to cards, instead of increasing bw, ROPS etc. Why consider bandwidth at all if increasing CU's gives perfect scaling?
Click to expand...
They are adding CUs/SMs to their cards, it scales pretty good also.

Moral Panic said:
The ESRAM and DDR3 work simultaneously so you CAN add the bandwidths. It is not inaccurate. Meaningless stat though.
Click to expand...
We can add them? Like this? http://i.imgur.com/EiyQVAi.gif
 
Chobel

Chobel

Member
Moral Panic said:
I highly doubt this is true. If so AMD/Nvidia would just keep adding CU's to cards, instead of increasing bw, ROPS etc. Why consider bandwidth at all if increasing CU's gives perfect scaling?
Click to expand...

Adding CU's without adding Bandwidth is pointless. With each CU added, you get less bandwidth to each individual CU so less CU efficiency.
 
Wishmaster92

Wishmaster92

Member
Bundy said:
Exactly!

Wait!
Penello really said that?
Bwhahahaha!
Click to expand...

Yeah and he also said this:
So if you're saying you can't add bandwidth - you can. If you want to dispute that ESRAM has simultaneous read/write cycles - it does.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=80962073&postcount=426
Click to expand...
Which totally contradicts this
Ars: "Just adding up bandwidth numbers is idiotic and meaningless.
Click to expand...

Even some tech experts here on gaf said that you could add the bandwidth. Honestly i don't even know wtf is going on anymore.
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Moral Panic said:
I highly doubt this is true. If so AMD/Nvidia would just keep adding CU's to cards, instead of increasing bw, ROPS etc. Why consider bandwidth at all if increasing CU's gives perfect scaling?
Click to expand...
It holds true for compute work. PS4 GPU does have more ROPs as well though (2x as many, I think) and more usable bandwidth.

Wishmaster92 said:
Even some tech experts here on gaf said that you could add the bandwidth. Honestly i don't even know wtf is going on anymore.
Click to expand...
You can add them, of course. In perfectly staged synthetic tests.
 
3

3rdamention

Member
I believe Albert Penello will simply say he believes the incredibly smart Tech Fellows and engineers over at Microsoft over some guy from a website. They invented Direct X!!



Honestly, I kinda hope that Albert doesn't post about this anymore. It was embarassing for him and the engineer/technical fellow he quoted. However, now, everytime he tries to post anything else, this is going to come up. Even when he speaks the truth about something, this whole story/scenario/mathemagics will come up, from now on.



This will go down as Albert's "Grab the mic from Angry Joe" moment, and he will never be able to live it down. Thats a shame, really, cause Albert was very likeable before he started sharing specs when he really didn't have to. That showed, that he didn't really know what he was talking about (which he was honest and said he didn't know the hardware well enough), but more importantly, the guy that he claimed to get the specs/stats from (who he talked up to bascially incredible smart), and that he trusted to share the truth with him, didn't either.
 
T

Thorgal

Member
SwiftDeath said:
So what the hell is going to happen with multiplats then?

Albert's continual push that differences will look negligible almost makes me think the tinfoil hat theory of MS buying multiplat parity is not so far-fetched
Click to expand...

You know . i wasn't going to post in here but i told myself if someone posts something about buying parity again i am gonna respond to this So please don't take this personally .

The idea of MS buying parity is simply silly.

First of all how would they regulate that ? MS going around devs and going :this part of the game runs better on PS4 . make it worse ?

And secondly Do you really expect Sony to just bend their knee to MS and say: we understand . please make the game on our system worse so we can achieve parity ?

Please . Please stop thinking that MS rules the game industry and everyone bends their knee for them . it is beyond silly .

I am not going to comment on who is right or wrong as all the games will do the talking and if it turns out somebody has been making up BS it will be clear as day to see for us and no amount of spin can disprove what we can see with our own eyes.
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
Freki said:
Why? What he posted wasn't a mistake - it was an attempt to spread FUD. He did so knowing and willingly.
If you google for FUD and Microsoft you'll see that this is one of their oldest tricks in the PR playbook...
Click to expand...

It's just me feeling bad for someone who looks foolish.

RedNumberFive said:
I'd love for Major Nelson to weigh in now that he has that GAF account he's been clamoring for.
Click to expand...


If he came in here and posted "Have you guys seen Titanfall" he'd certainly earn some cred for making a joke out of an uncomfortable situation.
 
M

Metfanant

Member
Wishmaster92 said:
Yeah and he also said this:

Which totally contradicts this


Even some tech experts here on gaf said that you could add the bandwidth. Honestly i don't even know wtf is going on anymore.
Click to expand...
Because you CAN add the bandwidth...but it's beyond misleading...they get to talk about how they have 200+ gb/sec...but it only applies to 32mb of the memory the rest is 68gb/sec...while on the PS4 ALL of the memory has 176gb/sec of bandwidth
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
I've gotten into this before here, but Penello is not currently in a marketing or PR role with MS and Xbox. He's director of product planning (and yes I've seen his Twitter and LinkedIn pages). He's doing some of that kind of work, but he's not in PR. Steve Ballmer does interviews, too.

It's all semantics, I guess. I guess I'm just mystified when people say, "He's in PR, it's his job to spin." Actually it's his job to tow the company line, but that doesn't mean he has to blow smoke up people's ass, and it's certainly not his job description. We have every right to hold him accountable on his words - that's my point.
 
RedAssedApe

RedAssedApe

Banned
ThoughtsOfSpeaking said:
To be fair, id be bloody shocked if Major nelson or penello did either. Besides, thats no indication of a ability to deal with the media anyway. A marketing degree is best used in more traditional advertising, not the relatively new skill of social media canvassing.
Click to expand...

Hryb graduated from Syracuse University in 1989 with a degree from the S.I. Newhouse School of Public Communications with a minor in Education.
Click to expand...

Granted it was in 1989 he has a degree in communications. :) Major Nelson has been blogging, tweeting and working the social media angle for Xbox for awhile now. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't post in any of these threads. He does seem to post in /r/xboxone though. But probably because they worship him there lol
 
B

BruiserBear

Banned
mangochutney said:
Based on what? We haven't seen it (NFS) ran on anything other than a PC.
Click to expand...

The producer of the game pretty much said the PS4 version was going to look the same as the PC version.

Also, they've repeatedly demo'd the game using a PS4 controller, so it's possible they were playing on a PS3 dev kit running PS4 specs.
 
S

SquiddyCracker

Banned
bEJNL1n.gif

This is Microsoft in regards to the Xbone.
 
Wishmaster92

Wishmaster92

Member
Metfanant said:
Because you CAN add the bandwidth...but it's beyond misleading...they get to talk about how they have 200+ gb/sec...but it only applies to 32mb of the memory the rest is 68gb/sec...while on the PS4 ALL of the memory has 176gb/sec of bandwidth
Click to expand...

That is what i initially thought, thanks anyways.
 
V

Vizzeh

Banned
Wishmaster92 said:
Yeah and he also said this:

Which totally contradicts this


Even some tech experts here on gaf said that you could add the bandwidth. Honestly i don't even know wtf is going on anymore.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that it is simultaneous bandwidth, Ie the GPU can read from the esram max 133GB/s practically and 68gb/s from the DDR3 (although MS say 272gb/sec total. 204gb/sec on ESRAM). Also you cannot say DDR3 +EsRAM figures 272gb/s (theory) are stackable because the data will not be coming from 1 source at 272GB/s but 2 sources at their aforementioned speed.- therefore it is wrong to say total Bandwidth is 272.
 
T

TheGuardian

Member
Chobel said:
Adding CU's without adding Bandwidth is pointless. With each CU added, you get less bandwidth to each individual CU so less CU efficiency.
Click to expand...

It only works like that if you're bandwidth bound. You just need to do more actual computation and avoid increasing memory accesses.
 
M

Metfanant

Member
RadarScope1 said:
I've gotten into this before here, but Penello is not currently in a marketing or PR role with MS and Xbox. He's director of product planning (and yes I've seen his Twitter and LinkedIn pages). He's doing some of that kind of work, but he's not in PR. Steve Ballmer does interviews, too.

It's all semantics, I guess. I guess I'm just mystified when people say, "He's in PR, it's his job to spin." Actually it's his job to tow the company line, but that doesn't mean he has to blow smoke up people's ass, and it's certainly not his job description. We have every right to hold him accountable on his words - that's my point.
Click to expand...
PR is the role of ANY employee when they find themselves interacting with the general public if they are doing it in any sort of official capacity...he is here RELATING to us (the public)...

It doesn't matter what the official job title is...he is here representing MS, in a public manner...hence PR...

Some people try to attach automatically negative connotations to "PR" I'm not trying to do that...just trying to point out there is no semantics issue...it's PR...period...
 
K

Klocker

Member
Well a former ps4 dev posted on b3d last night and said just the
opposite of ARS...

that APIs WILL matter and some showed how the CUs are not as efficient if you add more compared to increasing clocks and most say yea, so long as both memory pools are being addressed at same time you can indeed add the numbers together although the 204 number is strictly for esram

on phone at work and can not look it up now but it was ERP in the news rumor Xbox thread
 
J

jett

D-Member
I still think it's hilarious how it's Microsoft that keeps bringing specs into the spotlight. Penello did this to himself.
 
A

Amir0x

Banned
soul creator said:
new theory: Albert got trolled by his coworker

Penello: "Ok dude, are you SURE this stuff is accurate? Those cats on GAF are pretty rough"

Fellow: "Dude, it's totally accurate, go for it" trollface.jpg
Click to expand...


This is similar to my Major Nelson theory before the 180s

Major Nelson: "Guys... are you sure we're committed to this path? People seem totally pissed."
Microsoft Important Peeps: "Oh sure, definitely. There's no way we're changing this. You know, it's not like flipping a switch and all that. Waaay too complicated. You wouldn't understand. But trust us, not happening." *giggles*
Major Nelson: "Alright then. I'll take this to the interview circuit."
Microsoft Important Peeps: "Definitely, you do a great job Nelson."

Later...

Major Nelson: "Is it that easy? Are you an engineer? It's not like flipping a switch!"
Angry Joe: "Dude..."

*one week later, switch is flipped*

Microsoft Important Peeps: "hahahahahahaaLOL"
Major Nelson: "..."
 
I

IN&OUT

Banned
Klocker said:
Well a former ps4 dev posted on b3d last night and said just the
opposite of ARS...

that APIs WILL matter and some showed how the CUs are not as efficient if you add more compared to increasing clocks and most say yea, so long as both memory pools are being addressed at same time you can indeed add the numbers together although the 204 number is strictly for esram

on phone at work and can not look it up now but it was ERP in the news rumor Xbox thread
Click to expand...

What!!!!

Is adding more CU cores to the GPU a bad thing now? Is that the new MS spin?

Dear God, didn't see this coming!



EDIT: OK folks

MS has found the magic number of CU cores, its 12. if you exceed that it's gonna cripple your performance, less than that is also bad. you MUST have 12 otherwise your GPU is not efficient.

Also that means HD7770 is the most powerful GPU ever released, HD 7990 just have so many CU cores therefore its WEAK.
 
H

hwy_61

Banned
Amir0x said:
This is similar to my Major Nelson theory before the 180s

Major Nelson: "Guys... are you sure we're committed to this path? People seem totally pissed."
Microsoft Important Peeps: "Oh sure, definitely. There's no way we're changing this. You know, it's not like flipping a switch and all that. Waaay too complicated. You wouldn't understand. But trust us, not happening." *giggles*
Major Nelson: "Alright then. I'll take this to the interview circuit."
Microsoft Important Peeps: "Definitely, you do a great job Nelson."

Later...

Major Nelson: "Is it that easy? Are you an engineer? It's not like flipping a switch!"
Angry Joe: "Dude..."

*one week later, switch is flipped*

Microsoft Important Peeps: "hahahahahahaaLOL"
Major Nelson: "..."
Click to expand...

Where's my penny arcade comic?
 
B

Barack Lesnar

Banned
I think this one:

Penello: "We have at least 10% more CPU. Not only a faster processor, but a better audio chip also offloading CPU cycles."

Ars: "Maybe true."
Click to expand...
is the only one that'll give them an advantage, mainly the audio chip. I remember reading audio takes a lot of cpu cycles/power. PS4 still more powerful, though. As a casual observer, the 50% less CUs part just seems like a dagger, maybe not through the heart but through a kidney or something.
 
S

SwiftDeath

Member
Thorgal said:
You know . i wasn't going to post in here but i told myself if someone posts something about buying parity again i am gonna respond to this So please don't take this personally .

The idea of MS buying parity is simply silly.

First of all how would they regulate that ? MS going around devs and going :this part of the game runs better on PS4 . make it worse ?

And secondly Do you really expect Sony to just bend their knee to MS and say: we understand . please make the game on our system worse so we can achieve parity ?

Please . Please stop thinking that MS rules the game industry and everyone bends their knee for them . it is beyond silly .

I am not going to comment on who is right or wrong as all the games will do the talking and if it turns out somebody has been making up BS it will be clear as day to see for us and no amount of spin can disprove what we can see with our own eyes.
Click to expand...

See that's what I think as well

It's a crazy theory, one I don't think is likely

But I don't know what to think anymore

The more I think I understand how the systems interact with themselves the more confused I get

I honestly don't know anything anymore except that the GPU of the PS4 still seems considerably more powerful and the gDDR5 is likely a better solution to develop for then ESRAM
 
S

Skeff

Member
Heavy said:
I think this one:


is the only one that'll give them an advantage, mainly the audio chip. I remember reading audio takes a lot of cpu cycles/power. PS4 still more powerful, though. As a casual observer, the 50% less CUs part just seems like a dagger, maybe not through the heart but through a kidney or something.
Click to expand...

It is not mentioned often enough that the ps4 also has a seperately audio chip.
 
Chobel

Chobel

Member
Klocker said:
Well a former ps4 dev posted on b3d last night and said just the
opposite of ARS...

that APIs WILL matter and some showed how the CUs are not as efficient if you add more compared to increasing clocks and most say yea, so long as both memory pools are being addressed at same time you can indeed add the numbers together although the 204 number is strictly for esram

on phone at work and can not look it up now but it was ERP in the news rumor Xbox thread
Click to expand...

You mean this one http://beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1782673&postcount=6777
It have been already addressed in page 2, 3 in this thread. Also he didn't talk about adding bandwidth.
 
K

Krusenstern

Banned
Heavy said:
I think this one:

is the only one that'll give them an advantage, mainly the audio chip. I remember reading audio takes a lot of cpu cycles/power. PS4 still more powerful, though. As a casual observer, the 50% less CUs part just seems like a dagger, maybe not through the heart but through a kidney or something.
Click to expand...

Doesn't the PS4 have an audio chip too?

Heavy said:
Is the X1 chip better or same?
Click to expand...

That's what we don't know.
 
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