Support NeoGAF

[Orayn]

It feels that you want to dismiss something like Child's Play just because some people in the organization have different social views then you, which appears to me to be more of a case of not seeing the forest from the trees.

To be honest, some of the supporters of these "social issues" remind me of those social justice warriors on tumblr who dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with them and say stuff like check your privilege.

As cliched as it sounds at this point, "check your privilege" is not necessarily a dismissal. In fact, it's often a response to someone being dismissive.

When someone who's never experienced any form of racial prejudice in their life asks what the big deal is about race and asks why we can't all just be colorblind, that's a form of privilege coming out and being used to belittle others. Telling someone to consider how their life circumstances might be affecting their argument is a far cry from telling them that they can't say anything because they're white, male, etc.

 

[spekkeh]

This is what it is, what I believe in and what I argue against


And this is what I've seen some people try to transform it into. This is where I empathize with the OP. Far from me thinking that the problem of men unconsciously making sexist stuff isn't important, I will argue to the ends of the earth about the importance of entertainment media in our culture and the awareness of tone and content that that demands, but I feel offput by both the hyperbole and the seemingly blind energy that some people put into it.

Maybe I misread, because it is linguistically obtuse like someone else said, but OP reads like of being very much in the second camp. Breaking down the barriers of patriarchy was a direct citation after all.

 

[The Technomancer]

Maybe I misread, because it is linguistically obtuse like someone else said, but OP reads like of being very much in the second camp. Breaking down the barriers of patriarchy was a direct citation after all.

The way I read it the two areas are kind of what the OP is tottering between

 

[Mondy]

Ah, Child's Play. Something else I am very on the fence about.

Helping children? Yeah, I think that is way more important than worrying about the loose societal implications of the actions of Penny Arcade's creators. There are very few situations in which children won't come first. There's no denying that Child's Play has done very good things.

And yet, I hear little talk about it now outside of it being a sort of "get out of jail free" card, and that's not even PA's opponents burying talk of it. I don't even see much promotion of the charity itself from PA themselves, which makes it feel obsolete, as if its only existence IS a "get out of jail free card".

But it can't be, right? It still has to be up and running and helping children the world over, right?

You should have more faith in the community judging and then reacting to Penny Arcades actions. If they're severe enough to warrant regular people taking notice, then the reaction will be equally as severe. We don't need you using your position of influence to string up villains who say nasty things you don't like. Average Joe does a good enough job of that himself.

Were you around GAF when Kuchera was in full flight?

 

[unbias]

As cliched as it sounds at this point, "check your privilege" is not necessarily a dismissal. In fact, it's often a response to someone being dismissive.

When someone who's never experienced any form of racial prejudice in their life asks what the big deal is about race and asks why we can't all just be colorblind, that's a form of privilege coming out and being used to belittle others. Telling someone to consider how their life circumstances might be affecting their argument is a far cry from telling them that they can't say anything because they're white, male, etc.

This assumes that a lack of something adds more of an objective perspective then if that said person never lacked that something. Both ends of these types of arguments have very little fact in them(from my experience), because they are subjective points that are truly what people argue over. These discussions and topics, to me, wont ever really help unless there is a fairly large dispassionate group out their wanting to talk about it simply out of academic reasoning, as to guard against excessive bias on a particular talking point.

 

[EvaUnit02]

One day, you'll wake up and realize YOU'RE the cancer. What an ugly, destructive, awful person you are.

PA gives millions to charity, more to a scholarship fund, and ran the most progressive game convention in the industry, banning "Booth babes" and bringing along a forum for discussion about the exact issues you care about. That stupid, blind, destructive hatred for everyone who shows even one drop of impure thoughts is what kills a movement, because it just makes the people involved look like either bitter assholes, or outright psychopaths.

You're not in it to help anyone. You just want to give yourself an excuse to bully people and feel good about it. You use good causes as an excuse to make the world worse.

With respect, doing something righteous or aiding a righteous cause doesn't absolve one of criticism for other actions.

 

[The Technomancer]

This assumes that a lack of something adds more of an objective perspective then if that said person never lacked that something. Both ends of these types of arguments have very little fact in them(from my experience), because they are subjective points that are truly what people argue over. These discussions and topics, to me, wont ever really help unless there is a fairly large dispassionate group out their wanting to talk about it simply out of academic reasoning, as to guard against excessive bias on a particular talking point.

This can't really exist unfortunately, and is actually kind of the source of the whole "privilege" idea. People fundamentally bring the sum experiences of their life to how they evaluate anything

 

[Team Filler]

I only just picked the game up, so in terms of how good it is, I'll just have to take your word for it. But let's not beat around the bush: Dragon's Crown would have been pretty niche, especially in 2013. Super stylised dungeon crawlers do have an obvious audience, but they wouldn't have sold like hotcakes the way they did in the PS1 days. It would have just been regarded as a hidden gem at the twilight years of the PS3 if not for the controversy that boosted its visibility, and thus, its popularity.

The game is niche, but I don't think it was the "controversy" that did most of the selling; Dragon's Crown sold to Vita fans starving for a substantial game, to dungeon-crawl/A-RPG fans, and to Vanillaware fans.

Videogames aren't movies, and whereas many people might be interesting in spending $10 to see what all the controversy is for some movie, the same won't hold true (at least on the same scale) when it comes to spending $40+ on a videogame. Believing otherwise is pure fart-smelling foolishness.

 

[Lowlander2]

Were you around GAF when Kuchera was in full flight?

Depends what you mean by that. I wasn't on here when the PA Report was started, but I definitely was during his tiff with Eric (sp?) Kain. And I do remember GAF's games journalism topic lit up like a firefly when that happened.

 

[NexusCell]

As cliched as it sounds at this point, "check your privilege" is not necessarily a dismissal. In fact, it's often a response to someone being dismissive.

When someone who's never experienced any form of racial prejudice in their life asks what the big deal is about race and asks why we can't all just be colorblind, that's a form of privilege coming out and being used to belittle others. Telling someone to consider how their life circumstances might be affecting their argument is a far cry from telling them that they can't say anything because they're white, male, etc.

Yeah, I know what it can be used for, but I feel certain circles use it just to dismiss people who aren't like them.

Also, I just wanted an excuse to post this:

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

The game is niche, but I don't think it was the "controversy" that did most of the selling; Dragon's Crown sold to Vita fans starving for a substantial game, to dungeon-crawl/A-RPG fans, and to Vanillaware fans.

Videogames aren't movies, and whereas many people might be interesting in spending $10 to see what all the controversy is for some movie, the same won't hold true (at least on the same scale) when it comes to spending $40+ on a videogame. Believing otherwise is pure fart-smelling foolishness.

I think it just helped in terms of letting people know the game existed. A lot of people in the original threads were angry because they saw it as an attempt to bully a niche game out of existence. I always thought that seemed unlikely considering the amount of exposure it got for it.

 

[Mondy]

Depends what you mean by that. I wasn't on here when the PA Report was started, but I definitely was during his tiff with Eric (sp?) Kain. And I do remember GAF's games journalism topic lit up like a firefly when that happened.

Exactly. This shit doesn't go unnoticed. And I like to believe all those people that lit up that thread like a firefly stuck to their guns and never gave Kuchera his ad revenues ever again after that. If they did, they're wholly hypocritical and totally unreachable anyway by you or anyone else.

At the end of the day, give anyone enough rope and they'll hang themselves. Kuchera's reputation has been forever marked and it will stay with him for as long as Penny Arcade exists. Culture changes very rarely need to be forced. Consensus in the community drives it. The same will inevitably happen with minorities of any type in video games. It's just a question of when.

 

[Orayn]

Yeah, I know what it can be used for, but I feel certain circles use it just to dismiss people who aren't like them.

Also, I just wanted an excuse to post this:

An excuse to post a straw man? :\

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, I know what it can be used for, but I feel certain circles use it just to dismiss people who aren't like them.

Also, I just wanted an excuse to post this:

How much have you actually had to deal with that? I don't think I've ever really encountered that in real life, as funny as the disparate quotes assembled in Tumblr.txt are

 

[Team Filler]

I think it just helped in terms of letting people know the game existed. A lot of people in the original threads were angry because they saw it as an attempt to bully a niche game out of existence. I always thought that seemed unlikely considering the amount of exposure it got for it.

That's a fair point, that controversy could've helped the game receive notice by those who wouldn't have originally, but I do take issue with the notion that it was the primary factor for the game doing well, and especially with the idea that it was unfortunate in doing so well.

 

[unbias]

This can't really exist unfortunately, and is actually kind of the source of the whole "privilege" idea. People fundamentally bring the sum experiences of their life to how they evaluate anything

That is more or less my point. The best way to help foster a environment that a person desires, isn't to try and convert people, but instead to make people comfortable around people they disagree with. The op reads as someone(whether they are this person or not) who is not comfortable with those whom he disagree's with, and to me that is a much larger problem then any 1 specific issue.

 

[Lowlander2]

How much have you actually had to deal with that? I don't think I've ever really encountered that in real life, as funny as the disparate quotes assembled in Tumblr.txt are

I remember when Neil DeGrasse Tyson complained about people using "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", when "holidays" still has ties to religious language.

Closest thing I can think of...and it's not really close at all.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Presumably for it to not have been Vanillaware's best selling game ever by a country mile. What was it, 900k copies worldwide off a budget that was about the $1mill mark?

800k as of last month. It's Vanillware's best selling game ever and among Atlus' best selling games.

I didn't hope for anything. I was just highlighting how people who didn't want its character design motifs to be propagated ended up creating a sort of Streisand Effect for the game.

Me? I don't work for Vanillaware's competitor, whoever they are. I only just bought the game. What stake do I have?

Well, you listed it in your points about things or people that you were happy that you (and others) were able to "get rid of". So, it certainly comes across like you were disappointed that DC was one thing that you couldn't get rid of.

 

[Gannd]

As cliched as it sounds at this point, "check your privilege" is not necessarily a dismissal. In fact, it's often a response to someone being dismissive.

When someone who's never experienced any form of racial prejudice in their life asks what the big deal is about race and asks why we can't all just be colorblind, that's a form of privilege coming out and being used to belittle others. Telling someone to consider how their life circumstances might be affecting their argument is a far cry from telling them that they can't say anything because they're white, male, etc.

I'm sorry. Maybe some people use it beyond a childish dismissal but, at least here on GAF, it's often used as a childish dismissal. Someone posts something that they disagree with and it's "what a privileged argument". I think it comes from the field of social studies being kind a load of hokum (my opinion).

 

[The Technomancer]

That is more or less my point. The best way to help foster a environment that a person desires, isn't to try and convert people, but instead to make people comfortable around people they disagree with. The op reads as someone(whether they are this person or not) who is not comfortable with those whom he disagree's with, and to me that is a much larger problem then any 1 specific issue.

Eh, disagree on two points:
1.)Converting people is just fine, its just the method that can be problematic. We try to sway people to other points of view all the time, its just that deliberately antagonistic and exclusionary tactics aren't really any good. If you believe strongly in something trying to educate people to arrive at a similar point of view can be great!

2.)Its totally okay to be uncomfortable around people you disagree with especially if the issue is something you believe is important. Hell, can't we agree that being silent when someone says or does something problematic is the bigger issue? I certainly get uncomfortable around people who, say, casually use homophobic slurs and I'm trying to get better about calling it out

 

[Karsticles]

Am I to understand that OP wants to "defeat" Dragon's Crown? Or wishes the art would have been changed? How miserable.

 

[NexusCell]

An excuse to post a straw man? :

Pretty much, though I do admit that I have seen some wildly dismissive "social justice" bloggers on tumblr, who can't seem to accept any criticism at all.

 

[Pie and Beans]

An interesting read. It seems you're beginning to realise that the somewhat overtly venomous echo chamber (of which Bad Traditional Games Journalism certainly has its own version of) that often sees "cis white male" hissed around in it is actually becoming detrimental to any cause the individual was once trying to champion.

Seeing more female, gay, trans or whatever influence on the games industry is great and should be furthered, but through positive reinforcement and not militarisation of internet forces to spit bile at others at any given opportunity. Good lasting changes are slow and require good groundwork to build from. Dragging people over hot twitter/tumblr coals is not the route to that.

Perhaps you'll learn in time that Penny Arcade and Dragon's Crown did not need to "be defeated" because good lord.

 

[Lowlander2]

Am I to understand that OP wants to "defeat" Dragon's Crown? Or wishes the art would have been changed? How miserable.

Perhaps you'll learn in time that Penny Arcade and Dragon's Crown did not need to "be defeated" because good lord.

My stream of consciousness was more devoid of craft than I thought. No, I didn't want to get rid of Dragon's Crown. I just bought the game. But others didn't want to see its character design rewarded, and in return, the game sold just under a million.

Perhaps I should get some sleep now, in that case.

 

[Gannd]

Am I to understand that OP wants to "defeat" Dragon's Crown? Or wishes the art would have been changed? How miserable.

I think he's a movement gamer. One of the things that has taken a lot of fun out of gaming, for me, is that movement gamers have seemed to have taken over the gaming intelligentsia. I guess it's only natural now that we have had a new generation of writers take over and I'm over 30. There is nothing wrong with Dragon's Crown. It says nothing of our culture or gaming. It's a game. It's a toy. If you don't like it, don't buy it and play with it. I'm actually retreating into board games, card games, and Heroclix because it's something that I can do and just have fun. I can go on forums and talk about it and have fun. No one is trying to turn those games into high art. I remember reading on this forum that games writers need to get over the fact that they are writing book reports about toys. I think that's so true. There is nothing wrong with that. They aren't social critics and most of the game designers aren't trying to make social commentary.

I feel between the high cost of AAA development, the gaming intelligentsia and movement gamers, that we're heading for another crash. iOS and other mobile platforms have thoroughly devalued portable gaming and during the last generation the mid-tier market went away. We wanted games to be more like movies and we're going to get the blowback this generation.

I was much more into gaming when people weren't trying to turn them into anything more than they are.

 

[unbias]

Eh, disagree on two points:
1.)Converting people is just fine, its just the method that can be problematic. We try to sway people to other points of view all the time, its just that deliberately antagonistic and exclusionary tactics aren't really any good.

2.)Its totally okay to be uncomfortable around people you disagree with especially if the issue is something you care about. Hell, can't we agree that being silent when someone says or does something problematic is the bigger issue? I certainly get uncomfortable around people who, say, casually use homophobic slurs and I'm trying to get better about calling it out

Swaying people to another viewpoint through discussion, to me, is different from proselytize. I think when you are on a mission to actively try can convince everyone to think like you, it can foster a fairly high degree of intolerance of differing opinion. I very rarely see "good" conversions on a whole in terms of an idealistic group of people doing such a thing.

As for your 2nd point, when I say comfortable, I'm talking about not thinking those that disagree with me/you are a problem. Sure there are people who are routinely rude to people(whether it be homophobic, insensitive or ect), as a whole, and I dont think there is anything wrong with being uncomfortable around that. However, you should not be uncomfortable, to me, around people who dont think like you or hold the same beliefs or views. I think that breeds intolerant and aggressive behavior that we see on the internet all the time, specially in debates over the subjectivity of peoples morals. If someone is being rude, abrasive, or insulting to you of course you would feel uncomfortable, but when people are being rude that is to be expected. I was more talking about the idea that being around a viewpoint very different from yours is something that should be viewed as uncomfortable. I think all that breeds is what creates a large majority of the problems we see, and that is the us vs them mentality.

 

[The Technomancer]

As for your 2nd point, when I say comfortable, I'm talking about not thinking those that disagree with me/you are a problem. Sure there are people who are routinely rude to people(whether it be homophobic, insensitive or ect), as a whole, and I dont think there is anything wrong with being uncomfortable around that. However, you should not be uncomfortable, to me, around people who dont think like you or hold the same believes or views. I think that breeds intolerant and aggressive behavior that we see on the internet all the time, specially in debates over the subjectivity of peoples morals. If someone is being rude, abrasive, or insulting to you of course you would feel uncomfortable, but when people are being rude that is to be expected. I was more talking about the idea that being around a viewpoint very different from yours is something that should be viewed as uncomfortable. I think all that breeds is what creates a large majority of the problems we see, and that is the us vs them mentality.

Yes, but when the issue is something like "mass media (and games specifically) is still overwhelmingly dominated by white male heteronormative perspectives" responses like "no you're crazy its just art why are you trying to censor people stop having problems with things I like!" can be rude, abrasive and frustrating? Figuring out where the line of "subjective morals" is, if it even exists, is a huge, messy deal

 

[Pie and Beans]

My stream of consciousness was more devoid of craft than I thought. No, I didn't want to get rid of Dragon's Crown. I just bought the game. But others didn't want to see its character design rewarded, and in return, the game sold just under a million.

Perhaps I should get some sleep now, in that case.

Ah good, it seems like that whole paragraph needs giant quotation marks around it and a withering sigh at the end. I did find it a bit odd and out of place with everything else you were saying. Internet sarcasm man, its a tough sell!

 

[foxtrot3d]

I have never read such a lengthy post utterly devoid of any mean or purpose. I am sitting here and still trying to understand just what OP is upset about what exactly has disappointed him.

 

[Zornack]

How much have you actually had to deal with that? I don't think I've ever really encountered that in real life, as funny as the disparate quotes assembled in Tumblr.txt are

I've never experienced it in real life but I've also never experienced any of this sort of discussion in real life either.

I've seen "check your privilege" and other similar statements thrown around on NeoGAF, though.

 

[Gannd]

Can I ask a question? Roughly 3.5% of the United States population is gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered (http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...ple-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/) that report says there are roughly 700,000 transgendered Americans. That's roughly two tenths of a percent of the population. I don't know how to extrapolate that for the worldwide population but considering that the games media and games industry is primarily a United States marketplace (it's the largest market) what numbers are people wanting? That's also assuming that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people are as interested in games as the straight male population. I'm still a believer that a big reason that straight men dominate this industry is that they are the most interested in the industry and no amount of social change is going to move the numbers in any distinct way. Now, I'm not saying that the hobby should be closed or hostile to anybody. I think if anyone wants to play in the playground they should be made to feel welcome and have fun. But, I don't think we're ever going to get to where the movement gamers want us to go because the underlying populations are not large enough to support them.

EDIT: Does anyone know how many "professional" games writers there are? Or how many "professional" game developers there are? By professional, I mean it is their full time employment. It would be interesting to see if the games industry and the games media is above that 3.5% population for gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered people.

 

[aeolist]

people complain about dismissive and exclusionary behavior from proponents of equality but really the only time i've ever seen that kind of thing happen has been from shitposts along the lines of "get your politics out of my games"

ignoring that fact that games are inherently political and always have been

 

[Oxymoron]

Can I ask a question? Roughly 3.5% of the United States population is gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered (http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.e...ple-are-lesbian-gay-bisexual-and-transgender/) that report says there are roughly 700,000 transgendered Americans. That's roughly two tenths of a percent of the population. I don't know how to extrapolate that for the worldwide population but considering that the games media and games industry is primarily a United States marketplace (it's the largest market) what numbers are people wanting? That's also assuming that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people are as interested in games as the straight male population. I'm still a believer that a big reason that straight men dominate this industry is that they are the most interested in the industry and no amount of social change is going to move the numbers in any distinct way. Now, I'm not saying that the hobby should be closed or hostile to anybody. I think if anyone wants to play in the playground they should be made to feel welcome and have fun. But, I don't think we're ever going to get to where the movement gamers want us to go because the underlying populations are not large enough to support them.

EDIT: Does anyone know how many "professional" games writers there are? Or how many "professional" game developers there are? By professional, I mean it is their full time employment. It would be interesting to see if the games industry and the games media is above that 3.5% population for gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgendered people.

This isn't an LGBT thing. Women (54% of the population!) and people of colour (36% in the US) are also not very well represented by mainstream games.

But yeah, of course LGBT people are overrepresented in the games press - that's hardly in question. It's largely based in San Francisco, for one.

 

[Karsticles]

My stream of consciousness was more devoid of craft than I thought. No, I didn't want to get rid of Dragon's Crown. I just bought the game. But others didn't want to see its character design rewarded, and in return, the game sold just under a million.

Perhaps I should get some sleep now, in that case.

IIRC, Dragon's Crown was the top PSN download in Japan for 2013. Selling a million copies is VanillaWare's best record. The art did not hurt the game at all. Internet warriors just say that to appear tough. Anyone who loves beatemups got the game and loved or tolerated the art.

All of the outrage toward the game is oddly placed, anyway. Some Japanese developer announces a new otaku trash title every few weeks, but somehow DC got a lot of attention for having varied body types.

I think he's a movement gamer. One of the things that has taken a lot of fun out of gaming, for me, is that movement gamers have seemed to have taken over the gaming intelligentsia. I guess it's only natural now that we have had a new generation of writers take over and I'm over 30. There is nothing wrong with Dragon's Crown. It says nothing of our culture or gaming. It's a game. It's a toy. If you don't like it, don't buy it and play with it. I'm actually retreating into board games, card games, and Heroclix because it's something that I can do and just have fun. I can go on forums and talk about it and have fun. No one is trying to turn those games into high art. I remember reading on this forum that games writers need to get over the fact that they are writing book reports about toys. I think that's so true. There is nothing wrong with that. They aren't social critics and most of the game designers aren't trying to make social commentary.

I feel between the high cost of AAA development, the gaming intelligentsia and movement gamers, that we're heading for another crash. iOS and other mobile platforms have thoroughly devalued portable gaming and during the last generation the mid-tier market went away. We wanted games to be more like movies and we're going to get the blowback this generation.

I was much more into gaming when people weren't trying to turn them into anything more than they are.

You put that well, and we share a lot of the same sentiments.

 

[Karkador]

Perhaps you'll learn in time that Penny Arcade and Dragon's Crown did not need to "be defeated" because good lord.

To be fair, Penny Arcade is pretty awful (for various reasons) and should be defeated.

 

[Zornack]

To be fair, Penny Arcade is pretty awful (for various reasons) and should be defeated.

Aside from various accusations that they hate gays, trans, rape survivors, etc. I've not heard much bad about them. What are other reasons they're awful?

 

[robotzombie]

To be fair, Penny Arcade is pretty awful (for various reasons) and should be defeated.

you mean the one guy says some shit you don't like?

 

[Gannd]

This isn't an LGBT thing. Women (54% of the population!) and people of colour (36% in the US) are also not very well represented by mainstream games.

Mainstream or the AAA game space? I don't think AAA games are necessarily mainstream. Mainstream means enjoyed by the majority.

I think we don't have enough data to explain why. to me, the whole argument of we need more LGBT, women, and minorities represented in gaming is a chicken v. egg debate. It's like Nintendo fans who want more AAA games on their platform. Except, the orthodoxy of the industry is that those games don't sell on Nintendo platforms therefore it's okay for them not to be made. But when it comes to the balance of representation of games, it goes the other way.

I would be interested in a very detailed study of who plays games and what types of games they play. Women play a lot of games but they tend to be the games that we really don't talk about here on GAF. I would love to see some detailed market research about who is the audience. I just have a feeling with how focus group and market researched driven the AAA space is, that the audience for those games really is just a bunch of straight young white males and that's why they are over representative compared to the general population.

 

[zeldablue]

Not sure what's happening here. Never realized so much drama was happening with game journalism.

Honestly, if its controversial or stupid enough, it will be well publicized and hated at the same time. Just like Miley's Turkey butt, Anita's kick starter and GoW:A's bros.

I feel as though gays paved their way by entering fashion and Hollywood and spreading into the mainstream. African Americans did similar things by entering the entertainment industry and gathering help and exposure that way.

Journalism is cool, but the actual industry is more potent. The people making games are people who loved games 10 or 20 years ago. And they are all pretty much straight, white (or Japanese) males making games for straight white (or Japanese) males.

There will not be an outpouring of gays, females or blacks pouring into the industry in huge gushes anytime soon. Mostly because, generally speaking, they don't fall in love with technical positions in droves. Therefore...the controversial critiques will continue to do nothing but piss people off. Deaf ears, spiral of silence etc etc.

IMO you should allow people to critique however they want. You look like a communist for barring their right to complain. and at the end of the day the market is going to decide what gets purchased anyways.

-sigh-

 

[NullPointer]

WTF is this? Witch hunts and censorship. "we're trying to get rid of" "we got rid of" ugh.

Yep. Recoiled quite a bit at that part. Dragon's Crown too? Really?

 

[Pie and Beans]

To be fair, Penny Arcade is pretty awful (for various reasons) and should be defeated.

Gabe as ever needed to be edumacated about a great many things and learn not to run his mouth off, but the sum parts of all that PA has done positively for the industry is just far far greater than any dickwolf controversy.

In the motion to villainise such institutions and tear them down as if they were statues of Saddam Hussein, where do activists and such like think the negative emotions from witch hunts then go? Evaporate into a fine mist and not influence those large groups of people ever so slightly negatively for the rest of their lives? Its this lack of foresight that is pretty much the rotten root of all quickfire twitter/tumblr based social activism. What genuine good do you really think this is doing the cause you perceive as requiring your white hot embered battle axe throwing in on? "Evil has been defeated, happily ever after!" connotations perhaps?

 

[The Technomancer]

Mainstream or the AAA game space? I don't think AAA games are necessarily mainstream. Mainstream means enjoyed by the majority.

I think we don't have enough data to explain why. to me, the whole argument of we need more LGBT, women, and minorities represented in gaming is a chicken v. egg debate. It's like Nintendo fans who want more AAA games on their platform. Except, the orthodoxy of the industry is that those games don't sell on Nintendo platforms therefore it's okay for them not to be made. But when it comes to the balance of representation of games, it goes the other way.

I would be interested in a very detailed study of who plays games and what types of games they play. Women play a lot of games but they tend to be the games that we really don't talk about here on GAF. I would love to see some detailed market research about who is the audience. I just have a feeling with how focus group and market researched driven the AAA space is, that the audience for those games really is just a bunch of straight young white males and that's why they are over representative compared to the general population.

Polygon had an article about this recently that was actually quite good, looking at how the industry has become more male-dominated in both focus and labor since the 80s. Even if we had such a study as you propose I'm not sure how useful it would be though other then as a way to understand things as they are now, which may not be the same as how things could be. We shouldn't confuse the form of the current industry with its content

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I consider it more along the lines of growing pains of an entire industry. We'll get there eventually but it'll be messy.

I'd vote to push for more game criticism in academia. I studied film in university and there were gillions of different (sometimes crazy) criticisms on film, films, genres etc etc. Now sure film is a hundred years older, but the fact remains that high level academic literature is lacking in games.

I want my marxist criticism of Call of Duty!

Yeah the courses I've taken in film criticism and cultural studies really opened my eyes on a lot of stuff. I know how laughably cliched that sounds ("college like, showed me the world maaaan") but seeing just how much actual, thoughtful, meaningful criticism film enjoys (and how equally much pretentious, vapid, meaningless criticism, lets be fair) really inspired me to try and start thinking about games in a similar light.

As someone that is studying a art related career (and living in a country with questionable pseudo socialist political factions)... ugh, no more Marxist criticism... but I suppose is inevitable in the long run if we want another forms of criticism that doesn't devolve in the typical "I don't like this because I could not empathize with the character" "Where is the fun?"

 

[The Technomancer]

As someone that is studying a art related career (and living in a country with questionable pseudo socialist political factions)... ugh, no more Marxist criticism... but I suppose is inevitable in the long run.

Psh all the cool kid's critiques are Debordian

 

[Karkador]

Aside from various accusations that they hate gays, trans, rape survivors, etc. I've not heard much bad about them. What are other reasons they're awful?

you mean the one guy says some shit you don't like?

Sure, there is all that, and it's pretty bad- but we don't even have to go that far. The comic is just bad.

But seriously, the good will that they have offered just comes off really odd and sideways in light of how they carry themselves publicly. It's not like they're monsters, but it seems very inconsistent and disorganized, to say the least. I know that many people rationalize it by saying "what does it matter how they act, the end result is that X amount of good in the world happens", but I don't agree that ends justify the means (or the mannerisms).

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Psh all the cool kid's critiques are Debordian

I'm more personally inclined to structuralism.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Yep. Recoiled quite a bit at that part. Dragon's Crown too? Really?

The characters are sexy, not sexist. Disproportionate, goofy, yet well-endowed, focusing on the art tends to kick out other things at play.

Games aren't singular. It's hard to take pieces of a game and point to them as some sort of problem if it has context.

What I mean by that is this - Dragon's Crown has two sexy characters and maybe that could be considered sexist on its own, but you'd have to preform a lot of mental gymnastics to do so and it's a useless argument there.

Within the story, the Amazon is an outright badass and the Sorc is adventuring on her own for the hell of it. Both are huge damage dealers - probably the best in the game! - and are not weak on either front, nor are they the subject of an award or some sort of background. They are treated just the same as the rest of the characters.

(Sorc probably has the most fleshed out story, considering how sparse the story stands as is.)

All of the characters are treated equality. There is some fanservice, and some exist in those darned bits of beautiful artwork, but DC is decent about a very basic need for some gamers - equality.

I don't know why I wrote that. It's a fucking video game beat'em up that serves as a parody and a celebration of D&D tabletop/rare video game entries. Dig for oil where oil exist.

 

[unbias]

Sure, there is all that, and it's pretty bad- but we don't even have to go that far. The comic is just bad.

But seriously, the good will that they have offered just comes off really odd and sideways in light of how they carry themselves publicly. It's not like they're monsters, but it seems very inconsistent and disorganized, to say the least. I know that many people rationalize it by saying "what does it matter how they act, the end result is that X amount of good in the world happens", but I don't agree that ends justify the means (or the mannerisms).

You realize that you are pretty much advocating that companies you don't like shouldn't exist? While you don't like them(I'm not really a fan of them either, honestly) they do help foster community, through their website, despite their wild inconsistencies. Their PA Expo, while not perfect is a pretty great thing, in terms of when you are there you feel comfortable and inclusive. Of course there are exceptions, but most devs and journalists find it refreshing to go to them because a lot of the time you see the nice side of the interwebz, where they are not just crapping on you every chance you get(The panels are normally awesome).

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm more personally inclined to structuralism.

Structuralism and its related areas are probably where meaningful artistic criticism in gaming is going to start. My personal goal currently is to try and just get more recognition of the importance of symbolism and semiotics on levels that actually engage with the various levels of culture (culture of creation, culture of consumption, the culture that contains them both, etc) instead of just surface meaning

 

[Open Source]

With games, once you take the focus off the interactivity and fun, you're doomed to failure. That's the case whether it's Zynga turning games into automated cash extraction software, or whether it's these sorts of stupid obsessions with the DNA and gender and sexual preferences of people who write about games.

I happily ignore those who want to turn games into yet another front for their political/social activism. Video games are almost always escapes (or merely distractions) from reality, and to use them in this way is completely contrary to their nature.