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[Zornack]

Sure, there is all that, and it's pretty bad- but we don't even have to go that far. The comic is just bad.

But seriously, the good will that they have offered just comes off really odd and sideways in light of how they carry themselves publicly. It's not like they're monsters, but it seems very inconsistent and disorganized, to say the least. I know that many people rationalize it by saying "what does it matter how they act, the end result is that X amount of good in the world happens", but I don't agree that ends justify the means (or the mannerisms).

I don't know, it sounds like you just don't like them, which is fine, but that isn't reason enough to close them down.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Structuralism and its related areas are probably where meaningful artistic criticism in gaming is going to start. My personal goal currently is to try and just get more recognition of the importance of symbolism and semiotics on levels that actually engage with the various levels of culture (culture of creation, culture of consumption, the culture that contains them both, etc) instead of just surface meaning

I wish for the best luck for you. I'm still in a long way to finish my degree ; - ; .

 

[aeolist]

With games, once you take the focus off the interactivity and fun, you're doomed to failure. That's the case whether it's Zynga turning games into automated cash extraction software, or whether it's these sorts of stupid obsessions with the DNA and gender and sexual preferences of people who write about games.

I happily ignore those who want to turn games into yet another front for their political/social activism. Video games are almost always escapes (or merely distractions) from reality, and to use them in this way is completely contrary to their nature.

what games do you enjoy most?

 

[BlitzEngineer]

The characters are sexy, not sexist. Disproportionate, goofy, yet well-endowed, focusing on the art tends to kick out other things at play.

Games aren't singular. It's hard to take pieces of a game and point to them as some sort of problem if it has context.

What I mean by that is this - Dragon's Crown has two sexy characters and maybe that could be considered sexist on its own, but you'd have to preform a lot of mental gymnastics to do so and it's a useless argument there.

Within the story, the Amazon is an outright badass and the Sorc is adventuring on her own for the hell of it. Both are huge damage dealers - probably the best in the game! - and are not weak on either front, nor are they the subject of an award or some sort of background. They are treated just the same as the rest of the characters.

(Sorc probably has the most fleshed out story, considering how sparse the story stands as is.)

All of the characters are treated equality. There is some fanservice, and some exist in those darned bits of beautiful artwork, but DC is decent about a very basic need for some gamers - equality.

I don't know why I wrote that. It's a fucking video game beat'em up that serves as a parody and a celebration of D&D tabletop/rare video game entries. Dig for oil where oil exist.

Can't agree with this enough.

Look, I don't have anything constructive to add to this discussion, really. I don't know who half of the people in the article are and I don't follow the endless controversies blown up by "movement" or "activist" gamers.

All I can say is that when you are a person pushing an agenda, and your methods of pushing that agenda involve going after journalists' jobs or the success of a game for the pure reason that it doesn't agree with your morals or social sensitivities, I stop listening to you.

I don't care if you have a well reasoned and sensible argument to support the belief that genders or races aren't represented equally or positively in games, and that this is something malignant that we should strive to correct. As soon as you seem to start a witch hunt or negative campaign against a game or person because they don't adhere to your beliefs, you are out of the realm of criticism and firmly in the realm of bigotry, at least in my eyes. It doesn't matter to me that you think your view is socially progressive, you're still no different from the idiots that protest at military funerals.

That's just my opinion though, as inflammatory as it may seem I'm not trying to personally attack anyone involved in this movement. I guess what I'm trying to say is: lose the negativity. As someone who is a part of this audience you are trying to sway, all these controversies regarding journalists losing they're jobs or games losing sales just serve to convince me that your argument isn't one worth listening to.

 

[Karkador]

You realize that you are pretty much advocating that companies you don't like shouldn't exist? While you don't like them(I'm not really a fan of them either, honestly) they do help foster community, through their website, despite their wild inconsistencies. Their PA Expo, while not perfect is a pretty great thing, in terms of when you are there you feel comfortable and inclusive. Of course there are exceptions, but most devs and journalists find it refreshing to go to them because a lot of the time you see the nice side of the interwebz, where they are not just crapping on you every chance you get(The panels are normally awesome).

The initial response (about them being "defeated" ) I made was a tongue-in-cheek jab at PA's overall comic quality. I'm honestly not even sure what being "defeated" entails, and I think it sounds a bit absurd. The actual serious response I made was about how people can't just dismiss Mike being an ass, because it reflects weirdly on what they are trying to accomplish, in my opinion at least. Also, the ends (nice things) don't justify the means (being a fucking ass), and people being confused and lacking faith in Penny Arcade standing for good-will and kindness for all is not an unusual or unexpected result at all.

So no, I didn't actually advocate for the non-existence of PA, more so that they should straighten up their act so that they don't damage their own efforts (and maybe make a better comic while they're at it)

 

[Syriel]

Neither person is wrong or a bad person or sexist or whatever. It's just about getting more voices out there that look at games in different ways. If you're already a straight, white male yourself who agree with GiantBomb about their views on Tomb Raider, that's perfectly fine. But there's other people out there who feel differently, and it'd be cool if those voices could be heard/acknowledged more as well.

Given the rise of cheap Internet and the ease with which one can upload to YouTube (zero cost hosting), the barrier to entry for new voices is virtually nil. In fact, it is this very thing that brought down many of the old media outlets.

The Internet removed the barrier to entry. With the web/YouTube/Twitch/etc. it's not a matter of being unable to speak. It's up to the speaker to say things that are interesting enough to engage an audience.

people complain about dismissive and exclusionary behavior from proponents of equality but really the only time i've ever seen that kind of thing happen has been from shitposts along the lines of "get your politics out of my games"

ignoring that fact that games are inherently political and always have been

I would disagree that games are inherently political.

Some game are and there is nothing saying a game cannot be political, but there are a large number of games that don't even come close to touching politics (or religion). Games can just be games.

Then again, if you really want to deconstruct a game down to its most basic elements, you can always go with my Dad's analysis. He's never been interested in games because, to him they're all the same. As he describes it, every game just consists of clicking on a point on the screen. Hard to argue with that.

 

[BobbyRobby]

You seem like a jerk for wanting to put an end to penny arcade and celebrating that you've gotten people fired.

Why not just make your own art and celebrate the art you like?

By the same token, just let people talk. Agree with the people you agree with and ignore the people you don't.

I can't get behind social crusades that want are so punitive and want to bury their enemies. Its so gross.

 

[aeolist]

I would disagree that games are inherently political.

Some game are and there is nothing saying a game cannot be political, but there are a large number of games that don't even come close to touching politics (or religion). Games can just be games.

Then again, if you really want to deconstruct a game down to its most basic elements, you can always go with my Dad's analysis. He's never been interested in games because, to him they're all the same. As he describes it, every game just consists of clicking on a point on the screen. Hard to argue with that.

i suppose not all games are necessarily political. stuff like super hexagon or geometry wars are certainly abstract enough to avoid any politics. pac-man is interesting because the first iteration was pretty apolitical, then ms pac-man came out and made statements about gender norms and expectations.

the overwhelmingly vast majority of games, indie and AAA and casual and f2p, are political in some way. the ones that people say aren't are the ones that uphold the status quo, but that's just politics in a direction that they agree with.

 

[petran79]

Structuralism and its related areas are probably where meaningful artistic criticism in gaming is going to start. My personal goal currently is to try and just get more recognition of the importance of symbolism and semiotics on levels that actually engage with the various levels of culture (culture of creation, culture of consumption, the culture that contains them both, etc) instead of just surface meaning

it would be also useful to be delved in positive sciences and technology. but unfortunately due to the difficulty this involves, very few write about it.

there is more chance of a computer game programmer delving into art and social sciences than a social scientist and artist delve into positive sciences and technology. because they are far more demanding.

the former will have a more objective opinion on the subject.

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

Yep. Recoiled quite a bit at that part. Dragon's Crown too? Really?

I pretty much stopped reading at that paragraph. It is unconscionable that the goal is to stomp out any voice or expression they deem offensive, and the absolute delusion that a couple of click bait controversy generating articles are the reason why Dragon's Crown was successful is laughable. It was a good game but I'm not so sure it was successful. It sold at least one copy to me which I suppose is one more than certain people would have liked to have sold.

 

[Zornack]

then ms pac-man came out and made statements about gender norms and expectations.

Wait, what, seriously? Throwing a bow and makeup on Pac-Man to differentiate the female version of the character is "making statements about gender norms and expectations"?

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

it would be also useful to be delved in positive sciences and technology. but unfortunately due to the difficulty this involves, very few write about it.

there is more chance of a computer game programmer delving into art and social sciences than a social scientist and artist delve into positive sciences and technology. because they are far more demanding.

the former will have a more objective opinion on the subject.

I hope you are not impliying what I think it sound like...

 

[Open Source]

I can't get behind social crusades that are so punitive and want to bury their enemies. Its so gross.

Most of those crusades are like that nowadays. Opponents are always enemies, opponents are always evil, opponents should be silenced, etc. That's because at their core, all the "justice" movements are always inherently about a power grab at the expense of those opponents.

 

[Dune1975]

We got rid of the trophy in God of War Ascension, but due to the controversy, Dragon’s Crown sold well over expectations, becoming a sleeper hit. For as much as everyone involved wants to say things are getting better, I still hear and see so much bile and hate towards the disenfranchised that it’s getting dangerously myopic to keep pretending. Some of those sleepless nights, I try to think to actions taken that have had a positive effect that is even half as good as #1ReasonWhy was…and I come up blank.

First off I think its fairly intellectually dishonest to state that some hyperbolic sycophantic fake outrage is the reason Dragon Crown was semi successful. Secondly, piss off, honestly what gives you the right to try to stamp out games, change them, and so forth because they have aspects that you do not like or find offensive? If the state of games bothers you, do the logical thing and build a secondary community that creates games that appeal to you, do not censor what the rest of us get to play. Really, how dare you?That is not your call to make but the consumers. Go fuck yourselves with all due respect, you're not helping but hurting the industry when you are so vile as to glorify having people with dissenting views fired and having games censored.

 

[aeolist]

Wait, what, seriously? Throwing a bow and makeup on Pac-Man to differentiate the female version of the character is "making statements about gender norms and expectations"?

sure. it says, intentionally or not, that male is the default blank state and female is the "other" that must be differentiated with makeup, long eyelashes, a bow, and in the artwork even a beauty mark and high heels.

that's a political statement

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

Wait, what, seriously? Throwing a bow and makeup on Pac-Man to differentiate the female version of the character is "making statements about gender norms and expectations"?

It was a statement about body dysmorphia and the negative relationship with food fostered in women by the mainstream media.

 

[The Technomancer]

I wish for the best luck for you. I'm still in a long way to finish my degree ; - ; .

I mean, my degree is technically in engineering, so its not like I'm a specialist

 

[Zornack]

sure. it says, intentionally or not, that male is the default blank state and female is the "other" that must be differentiated with makeup, long eyelashes, a bow, and in the artwork even a beauty mark and high heels.

that's a political statement

Pac-Man is male. Therefore, if you're making Ms. Pac-Man, you need some way to show that the character is now female. How would you make Pac-Man appear female?

 

[aeolist]

Pac-Man is male. Therefore, if you're making Ms. Pac-Man, you need some way to show that the character is now female. How would you make Pac-Man appear female?

well considering the fact that they're anthropomorphised yellow spheres i'm not sure external visual indicators are necessary

 

[Zornack]

well considering the fact that they're anthropomorphised yellow spheres i'm not sure external visual indicators are necessary

So would you leave the character design the exact same? That's terrible from a game design point of view.

 

[drproton]

Focus on small victories or on tearing down specific games. I've probably written a few thousand word in criticism of Dragon's Crown (and other games) and my problems with it, but as an example, not a target

I can't see this as anything other than a malignant or spiteful action myself. The only thing that speaking out against games can achieve is ruining things that other people like and you don't. It's easy to see why there is such a negativite response to this culture of reviewing games based on what politics they support or fail to among much of the gaming public. I'm proud to be one of the people who supported Vanillaware day one for bringing a game with a visionary and stylistic design despite short-sighted complaints otherwise.

The solution for under-representation of ideas in any art is creative, not destructive.

 

[Mesoian]

We managed to get rid of Pinsoff, but it was ages before Kuchera was let go, and that was not the intended goal: Penny Arcade is the monolith of malignant behaviour we’re trying to get rid of. We got rid of the trophy in God of War Ascension, but due to the controversy, Dragon’s Crown sold well over expectations, becoming a sleeper hit..

What in the actual fuck.

This is...::exhail:: illuminating. Thank you for this. I now know that your opinion is not one I want to listen to. I'm glad to figure this out earlier than later.

Ah, Child's Play. Something else I am very on the fence about.

Helping children? Yeah, I think that is way more important than worrying about the loose societal implications of the actions of Penny Arcade's creators. There are very few situations in which children won't come first. There's no denying that Child's Play has done very good things.

And yet, I hear little talk about it now outside of it being a sort of "get out of jail free" card, and that's not even PA's opponents burying talk of it. I don't even see much promotion of the charity itself from PA themselves, which makes it feel obsolete, as if its only existence IS a "get out of jail free card".

But it can't be, right? It still has to be up and running and helping children the world over, right?

You sound...INCREDIBLY bitter.

 

[TheSpoiler]

Can't agree with this enough.

Look, I don't have anything constructive to add to this discussion, really. I don't know who half of the people in the article are and I don't follow the endless controversies blown up by "movement" or "activist" gamers.

All I can say is that when you are a person pushing an agenda, and your methods of pushing that agenda involve going after journalists' jobs or the success of a game for the pure reason that it doesn't agree with your morals or social sensitivities, I stop listening to you.

I don't care if you have a well reasoned and sensible argument to support the belief that genders or races aren't represented equally or positively in games, and that this is something malignant that we should strive to correct. As soon as you seem to start a witch hunt or negative campaign against a game or person because they don't adhere to your beliefs, you are out of the realm of criticism and firmly in the realm of bigotry, at least in my eyes. It doesn't matter to me that you think your view is socially progressive, you're still no different from the idiots that protest at military funerals.

That's just my opinion though, as inflammatory as it may seem I'm not trying to personally attack anyone involved in this movement. I guess what I'm trying to say is: lose the negativity. As someone who is a part of this audience you are trying to sway, all these controversies regarding journalists losing they're jobs or games losing sales just serve to convince me that your argument isn't one worth listening to.

Does anyone remember the whole issue with Killer Is Dead that people had? If you don't, I'll quickly explain.

You are a male Gigolo, Bond-like, and three girls request your services. Before you do the deed (of a white screen, no less), you have to woo them by giving them presents after ogling them. The girls enjoy it (they make a point to constantly state that) and it's really just a parody and not meant to be serious.

The media had a huge shitfit about it, and it took someone who had played the game to explain the purpose of the minigame (and clarify it). The people bitching either hadn't played the game, or played it and thought "THIS IS IT!" and rubbed their hands.

Despite that, the game's air of assume sexism didn't leave, and it was referenced in multiple reviews. Whether it be a misguided attempt at change or just another clickbait, the end result was the same - yet another witch hunt was over, and KID was burned at the stake.

We need to leave this kneejerking point. We need to really analyze shit. Or really, stop over analyzing things. There are plenty of games that have legit problems. Plenty of witches casting spells in the dark while they go unburned.

I agree with you. Let's cool down and really look at this shit and stop going after every single title that comes out.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

I mean, my degree is technically in engineering, so its not like I'm a specialist

I know about a lot of engineers that are later interested in arts or social science. Is not that weird.

 

[GetemMa]

sure. it says, intentionally or not, that male is the default blank state and female is the "other" that must be differentiated with makeup, long eyelashes, a bow, and in the artwork even a beauty mark and high heels.

that's a political statement

If anyone was ever interested in why the feminist movement moves at a snails pace and in some cases goes backward, particularly in media, let this post serve as an example.

This is the kind of discussion that people see and probably silently (and incorrectly) declare to themselves that feminist/LGBT issues must be A okay in videogames.

Ms Pac Man is faster than (Mr?) Pac Man. That is a political statement that women do things faster because, I am guessing, they are smarter more capable people.

 

[Karkador]

I can't see this as anything other than a malignant or spiteful action myself. The only thing that speaking out against games can achieve is ruining things that other people like and you don't.

But then are you against any sort of negative criticism of games? If someone rates a game low for "being a bad game" (whatever that may entail), is that ruining things that other people like?

 

[aeolist]

So would you leave the character design the exact same? That's terrible from a game design point of view.

ok, then why didn't they make ms pac man "normal" and make pac man somehow brawny with a mustache and a mullet?

and yes, i know the whole story behind ms pac man, it's an academic question. and i know that when you're dealing with very tight pixel budgets your options are limited. i just think that when you ask yourself "how do i make this generic male character into a female" and the answer is to add every stereotyped accessory you can think of there is a problem.

 

[EricDiesel]

don't tell minorities how to behave. that's fucked up.

also to the thread in general: criticism of being abusive or bigoted is not censorship, it's just that. criticism.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

This is one of the most linguistically obtuse articles i've ever read.

Your post assumes the reader has both followed, and remembered, all the controversy that you are referencing. As such, it is very incomplete.

Basically, i cannot tell where you stand on any of these issues. Do you believe the people who were fired should not have been? Do you believe certain vocal people are harming their cause by being annoying in their presentation?

Please revise and clarify, this reads like a first draft that has not been looked at again. And provide basic background info on these controversies, cause i do not remember them all. Until i understand your points better, i cannot offer relevant discussion.

I have never read such a lengthy post utterly devoid of any mean or purpose. I am sitting here and still trying to understand just what OP is upset about what exactly has disappointed him.

Glad it's not just me. I started reading the post, was confused as to where it was going, skimmed a bit and gave up. Sorry OP but your post is kind of a poorly written mess.

I worked at Gamefan magazine in 1997 and routinely gave out 90%+ reviews because I thought that's what I was supposed to do.

Knightmare, right? "Evening."

Spoiler

Now I feel old. ^^

Are you THE David Wong?

Same David Wong from the JREF forums then? Cool, didn't know he was on GAF too.

The characters are sexy, not sexist.

The playable ones, maybe, though that's debatable. The NPCs, not so much.

What I mean by that is this - Dragon's Crown has two sexy characters and maybe that could be considered sexist on its own, but you'd have to preform a lot of mental gymnastics to do so and it's a useless argument there.

It's like everyone forgot about the ridiculously sexist female NPCs scattered throughout the game (the creepy spread-eagle moaning female monk with pointy boob plate, the brainless bovine-eyed princess, the half-naked chained prisoner in the tower, the village damsels taken by the vampires, not to mention all those unlockable artworks that constantly feature women in various states of undress). It's not like it's just about the sorceress's larger-than-her-head boobies, you know.

All of the characters are treated equality. There is some fanservice, and some exist in those darned bits of beautiful artwork, but DC is decent about a very basic need for some gamers - equality.

ROFL, what is this shit. All the female NPCs (oh, except that ogre cook I guess xD) are vacuous and/or helpless and extremely sexualized, and the unlockable artworks certainly don't have an equal amount of near-naked males. Equality my ass.

Btw, it's still my GotY 2013, but damn if the denials and defensiveness about this game's sexism don't irritate the hell out of me. It's okay to like something despite its flaws, people. It doesn't make you a bad person for liking the game, but stop pretending it's not there, jesus.

I don't know why I wrote that.

Yeah, me neither.

Wait, what, seriously? Throwing a bow and makeup on Pac-Man to differentiate the female version of the character is "making statements about gender norms and expectations"?

I certainly wouldn't go that far, but it probably did contribute to the "throw a pink bow and lipstick on any character to make it female" trope that became so prevalent.

 

[drproton]

But then are you against any sort of negative criticism of games? If someone rates a game low for "being a bad game" (whatever that may entail), is that ruining things that other people like?

I guess I wouldn't take a feminist critique of the latest Die Hard movie very seriously when deciding if I wanted to watch it; and I would find it offensive if a regular publication tried to pass it off as a normal review.

 

[zeldablue]

it would be also useful to be delved in positive sciences and technology. but unfortunately due to the difficulty this involves, very few write about it.

there is more chance of a computer game programmer delving into art and social sciences than a social scientist and artist delve into positive sciences and technology. because they are far more demanding.

the former will have a more objective opinion on the subject.

Ow...that hurts.

I'm an artist/designer but I still like developing and coding too.

:/

 

[Zornack]

ok, then why didn't they make ms pac man "normal" and make pac man somehow brawny with a mustache and a mullet?

and yes, i know the whole story behind ms pac man, it's an academic question. and i know that when you're dealing with very tight pixel budgets your options are limited. i just think that when you ask yourself "how do i make this generic male character into a female" and the answer is to add every stereotyped accessory you can think of there is a problem.

Pac-Man was already an established character.

I want to know how you would make Ms. Pac-Man visibly recognizable as a female character.

 

[antitrop]

I read the entire OP and was fairly confused as to the greater context of the situation. I've never even heard of this Maddy Meyers person, and without a link to the referenced article, I was forced to look at her Twitter timeline to try to find and it and failed there (she tweets too much, couldn't find it).

I think the OP assumes a bit too much and the whole thing just kind of comes off as slightly incoherent. I'm really not sure what the entire point of the thread/post was.

 

[aeolist]

Pac-Man was already an established character.

I want to know how you would make Ms. Pac-Man visibly recognizable as a female character.

she could look exactly the same as pac man and be female. i still don't see what the problem is there.

anyway, ms pac man is just an obvious example. most games have political implications, this is my point.

 

[Zornack]

she could look exactly the same as pac man and be female. i still don't see what the problem is there.

anyway, ms pac man is just an obvious example. most games have political implications, this is my point.

Making a new game and using the exact same sprites as the previous one is terrible from a game design point of view.

Okay, how about this, do you take issue with Ms. Pac-Man's design?

I'm pushing hard here because I don't think most games have political implications. I think you are seeing political implications where you want to, whether or not they're actually there.

 

[aeolist]

Making a new game and using the exact same sprites as the previous one is terrible from a game design point of view.

Okay, how about this, do you take issue with Ms. Pac-Man's design?

i take issue with the design philosophy that generated ms pac man's design being prevalent in the game industry, not with this one isolated example. if ms pac man wasn't indicative of the way most female "versions" of characters are produced i wouldn't be bringing it up.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

Ow...that hurts.

I'm an artist/designer but I still like developing and coding too.

:/

Some of my teachers would probably have something to say about social sciencies not being a demanding job... if they get actually got some free time.

 

[Karkador]

I guess I wouldn't take a feminist critique of the latest Die Hard movie very seriously when deciding if I wanted to watch it; and I would find it offensive if a regular publication tried to pass it off as a normal review.

Well, you're probably right to seek out and trust reviews/criticisms from people who have the most in common with you, but that doesn't necessarily make the reviews/criticisms of other types of people less valid.

Also, limiting yourself to listening only to those who line up with your viewpoints can make for some tunnel vision, like people who only watch Fox News or something.

she could look exactly the same as pac man and be female. i still don't see what the problem is there.

People would think it was just Pac-Man and not a new game.

anyway, ms pac man is just an obvious example. most games have political implications, this is my point.

Plenty of things might have inadvertant political implications (Crash Bandicoot: What is it saying about animal testing in labs?), but that doesn't mean it's saying anything interesting enough to start a discussion (or that it wants to start a discussion). Some art in the world will have its message pointed enough to deliberately start discussions or add new ideas. Need For Speed: Most Wanted is not a statement about the trouble with police chases and the costs of destruction and lives at risk.

 

[Zornack]

i take issues with the design philosophy that generated ms pac man's design being prevalent in the game industry, not with this one isolated example. if ms pac man wasn't indicative of the way most female "versions" of characters are produced i wouldn't be bringing it up.

What are some female character designs from last year that follow Ms. Pac-Man's design philosophy?

 

[oconnomiyaki]

I have friends who are social warriors and I've just stopped talking to most of them. It gets tiring. I remember a while ago someone commented passive aggressively on my Facebook and I ended up defriending them. When they tried to accuse me of not being open-minded, I just told them that they couldn't even be bothered to wish me happy birthday but could take the time to play social warrior on my Facebook the very next day.

It's not just issues like gender equality and all that; it's stuff like people taking uber-environmental stances on things all the time even when there is no evidence to support their position and just blah.

Where am I going with this? The point is that if someone keeps harping on about this, doesn't pick their battles, and just won't let it go, you stop listening to them. That's pretty much what I've done with all this talk about social equality in gaming. I'm not some kind of misogynist and I fully agree with gender equality. But when it doesn't let up, when we can't have anything without it being over-analysed, you just tune it all out so you can go on having fun.

Kind of reminds me of that Simpsons gag:

Burns: So, what do you think of today’s popular music scene.
Lisa: I think it distracts people from more important social issues.
Burns: My god, are you always on!?

 

[kyser73]

A few throwaway thoughts...

Identity politics always ends up in this cul-de-sac.

The OP writes about 'pride and self-righteousness' in people - clearly he hasn't come across too many people who are convinced that not only are they correct both morally & intellectually, but that the have a duty to tell the rest of us and act on those beliefs. The politics may be a million miles part, but behaviourally it is no different from the moral crusaders of the right, and their tactics are exactly the same (this is not to dismiss activism as a whole obvs. but reactionary liberal politics born out of victim/slave mentality is always going to fall into a predictable pattern).

Whomever asked for Marxist criticism of CoD - try Zizek, he's got a BlopsII poster on his wall and is always an entertaining read.

 

[aeolist]

What are some female character designs from last year that follow Ms. Pac-Man's design philosophy?

http://scribblenauts.wikia.com/wiki/Maxwell's_Family

maxwell from scribblenauts has 40 brothers, each of whom has their own unique design based on their interests

he has one sister who is just maxwell with a pink color scheme and a skirt

e: i have to go so if you respond to this i probably won't answer, sorry

 

[Spoo]

I'm having a hard time understanding the OP, but I think I'm starting to understand the topic somewhat.

In my fantasies, as a librul, and by and large agreeing with the notions that games need to grow up, and criticism with a social slant is generally good, I also realize that the way to win friends in an industry with so many folks who just do not think alike is not to have stances so firm that people lose jobs, friends, employers, employees, contracts, or whatever. There's bound to be a better way, and while game's don't exist in a vacuum (we should be allowed and encouraged to speak our mind about the creative output of people), when we talk about other people, the criticism needs to change form.

For example, the PA thing -- someone brought it up earlier, but they've done a lot of good. And some bad. And if we want to take a good stance, I think it's about being supportive of the good, and damning of the bad, all the while remembering that there are people on the other side, and even if we think they're wrong we ought to hear out their arguments, debate, and ultimately compromise with hope for a better future of mindshare. Trying to "squeeze them out", or make people lose their jobs; that's just not going to help as much as we think.

I find your take, if I understand it, somewhat disturbing. Criticism should be both socially aware -- aware with respect to the issues of the day -- and simultaneously people aware; when you stop being the latter, you say obnoxiously stupid things, like when Phil Fish said Japanese games suck, or something like that. If you're socially aware to a fault, you miss the great games that say nothing about same-sex love, for the good ones that do. Ultimately, though, if we remember to be people-aware, we'll be okay with knowing that some people enjoy sexist games, and others don't recognize the games that work hard to not be sexist. Yeah, I think these are growing pains in the industry, and we should talk about them, but never stoop to such lows as to hurt others because they don't share our worldview. Work to change it, yes, in legal and fair-minded ways.

If the above makes absolutely no sense, then, I didn't understand you at all. kthx.

 

[Blackage]

We got rid of the trophy in God of War Ascension, but due to the controversy, Dragon’s Crown sold well over expectations, becoming a sleeper hit.

I winced in my chair when I read this.

 

[Gannd]

Some of my teachers would probably have something to say about social sciencies not being a demanding job... if they get actually got some free time.

Social Studies. They aren't science. And, sure, they have to supervise all those grad students who are trying to win those grants.

 

[castlemadeofsand]

This deserves a better thought-out reply but I guess I would say that activism doesn't follow criticism, criticism follows activism.

The reason activism "within" criticism starts to seem circle-jerky is that it preaches to the choir. Writers who want to affect change would find their efforts more fruitful if they set about developing the new creative works that exemplify what they want to see. Doing this would also express the ideas championed in a positive light, instead of something that always seeks to tear down and modify the creative work of others.

There are plenty of non-writers on Twitter with nothing to do all day but police Penny Arcade for more infractions. We need more conscientious writers putting out what Penny Arcade would be if it was "right."

Just an opinion.

haha agreed but most people like to bitch at what others do and try to change it to their liking rather than do something themselves. if more people want stuff with gay people in their games and all these gender issues, they need to make the games themselves. not try to force change on what others make. its asinine.

 

[kyser73]

Making a new game and using the exact same sprites as the previous one is terrible from a game design point of view.

Okay, how about this, do you take issue with Ms. Pac-Man's design?

I'm pushing hard here because I don't think most games have political implications. I think you are seeing political implications where you want to, whether or not they're actually there.

All cultural products contain the politics of both the creator and the society that the creator is part of, even when the creator is reacting against it. Even abstract puzzle games reproduce specific aspects of this.

MS. Pac Man is differentiated not by genitalia but by stereotypical symbols of women - clothing accessory & make-up. This says that these are things that define 'female' in our culture, and thus is making a political statement about gender.

None of this is especially new thinking - certainly within critical theory of the Frankfurt School it's been an accepted trope since the 30s, and I've never seen any serious academic criticism that's refuted it.

 

[flatearthpandas]

I think I see where the OP is coming from. By and large, when these gigantic threads pop up about each of these controversies, this is where many "naysayers" are coming from. It isn't that the causes aren't worthy, but its that they are pursued so clumsily or even destructively.

When you get the internet hate machine rolling for even a good cause, the result can end up even uglier than the original crime that spawned it.

 

[The Technomancer]

All cultural products contain the politics of both the creator and the society that the creator is part of, even when the creator is reacting against it. Even abstract puzzle games reproduce specific aspects of this.

MS. Pac Man is differentiated not by genitalia but by stereotypical symbols of women - clothing accessory & make-up. This says that these are things that define 'female' in our culture, and thus is making a political statement about gender.

None of this is especially new thinking - certainly within critical theory of the Frankfurt School it's been an accepted trope since the 30s, and I've never seen any serious academic criticism that's refuted it.

*gasp* how dare you try and think about games. Just enjoy your brainless entertainment

 

[kyser73]

Social Studies. They aren't science. And, sure, they have to supervise all those grad students who are trying to win those grants.

I agree they aren't science, but your post about population percentages demonstrates a profound lack of understanding about a great deal of the subject you dismiss as 'less demanding'.