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shark sandwich · Mar 22, 2018

It seems like many long-time JRPG fans have such nostalgia for the turn-based games of old.

Personally I’m glad to see them go. My problem with turn-based battles is that sure, they might feel really interesting and strategic...the first few battles. Then you are just going through the same motions and solving the same puzzle over and over. You might fight 20-30 battles in a dungeon which consist of the same 3-4 enemy configurations. And usually they pose no real threat to you anyway.

It sucks so bad being pulled out of exploration so your party can stand there in a line waiting for your commands, all so that you can defeat the same level 3 slimes you have wiped the floor with so many times before.

I’m convinced that many JRPGamers are just playing for the little dopamine hits that come from seeing your EXP and damage numbers go up over time, not for the sheer thrill and strategy of the battle. Nobody would play these games if they weren’t constantly leveling up. Just look how many gamers were outraged that you don’t gain AP for the first 3 chapters of FF XIII.

“BUT I like being in control of my whole party!!!” IMO this is bullshit. In most JRPGs you are making only the most brain dead simple decisions anyway. Heal if HP low, otherwise gang up on one enemy at a time until they all die. No other tactics needed unless it’s a boss fight.

Bottom line, I’m glad that the genre has mostly moved past this style of gameplay. And the few titles that stuck with it (e.g. Persona) at least have enough challenge and strategic depth to justify it, even if they’re not my cup of tea.

Halfman The Imp · Mar 22, 2018

The last traditional JRPG I played was Lost Odyssey. A very good story but damn, it was very tiresome.

Cato · Mar 22, 2018

shark sandwich said:
It seems like many long-time JRPG fans have such nostalgia for the turn-based games of old.

I do agree with most of your post eventhough it pains me.
I really like JRPGS, especially the older ones like chrono trigger, suikoden and so on.
I enjoy replaying them once in a while too, but I recognize there is some truths in your condemnation of them that I do agree with.

That said, I still like them and would never want them to not exist.
Next I think I will go back and replay the persona series, starting with the first one, with all the flaws it has. I still like it.

The Sane Psycho · Mar 22, 2018

Maybe more devs should add something spicy to the combat like the timed hits of Super Mario RPG/Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi, the combinations of Chrono Trigger, or the rock paper scissors type effectiveness of Pokemon.

Makariel · Mar 22, 2018

The problem you describe has more to do with repetition, less with the turn based nature. There are enough turn based games that keep throwing new enemy types and hazards at the player to mix things up. It's just that jrpg of old are very repetitive in general. You can have the same problem with a FPS if all you ever do is to shoot the same generic enemy with the same generic gun in samey looking corridors.

ar0s · Mar 22, 2018

I don't mind action RPG such as Mario RPG and associates which have been mentioned above but have always found pure turn based really boring. It just does not engage me and I cannot imagine playing a turn based on the big screen.

NovumAngel · Mar 22, 2018

The Sane Psycho said:
Maybe more devs should add something spicy to the combat like the timed hits of Super Mario RPG/Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi, the combinations of Chrono Trigger, or the rock paper scissors type effectiveness of Pokemon.

To add to your examples there's the smirk/press-turn in SMT games, the elemental/knockbacks in the Persona games and the quartz systems in the Legend of Heroes series.

JRPG combat, whether it be turn-based or real-time all depends on it's implementation. Real-time combat can suffer from the same problems you mention for turn-based, the never-ending mobs and, in some cases, sponge enemies.

TheShadowLord · Mar 22, 2018

I hope pokemon for switch isn't turn based or at least if it was active turned based. I doubt that though

KentBlake · Mar 22, 2018

I'm definitely not a fan of JRPG turn-based battles (I hate selecting things in menus and being transported to a "battle field" outside of the game world), but I really enjoy turn-based combat in the style of XCom or even Divinity: Original Sin, or the early Fallout games (1 & 2)

I still prefer real time (Dark Souls is one of my favorite franchises ever), but I think there's space for everything.

Dunki · Mar 22, 2018

Honestly I do not mind Turn based combat if its well done like in Persona even in Suikoden it was kind of easy but I did not mind because it did not distract from the game. Right now I am playing World of Final Fantasy and this combat is really tedious IMO.

But there is one thing that I am really glad is mostly gone and thats random encounter^^

JimboJones · Mar 22, 2018

Yeah mashing the A or X button is much more interesting.

Fbh · Mar 22, 2018

I personally disagree. While I do prefer a good action based combat system over a turn based one (good examples for me being Dark Souls and Dragons Dogma) I do still see the value in Turn based combat.

I specially like it in party based games. Because yes, I do prefer to be in control of the whole party. You are right that it often comes down to doing basic decisions for each character but in the VAST majority of cases I think it still beats the alternative of most of the challenge coming from the fact that the AI is too stupid to input even those basic commands. I've lost the count of bosses and encounters in action JRPG's that give me a hard time not because the boss is actually that strong but because my healer decides it's best to go stand right next to the enemy to start casting a non ideal healing spell or my mage doesn't understand how to best optimize his spells.
And yes there are often systems to try and program their AI but in most cases it just allows you to upgrade your team from brain dead to barely functional.

I think something like Bravely Default, Chrono Trigger, Resonance of Fate, Persona 5 or Shin Megami Tensei IV give you way better and more fun options to come up with your own combos and strategies and party setups and I'd take those combat systems any day over a standard real time combat which is in no way more complex (you are just replacing inputing the same commands over and over with mashing the same 2-3 button over and over) and limits you to control one character at the time while trying to deal with braindead AI for the rest of your party

shark sandwich said:
My problem with turn-based battles is that sure, they might feel really interesting and strategic...the first few battles. Then you are just going through the same motions and solving the same puzzle over and over. You might fight 20-30 battles in a dungeon which consist of the same 3-4 enemy configurations. And usually they pose no real threat to you anyway.

This is a common problem in JRPG's in general and has nothing to do with turn based combat. The exact same thing happens in JRPG's with real time combat like Tales of and FFXV and it's even worse in semi real time games like Xenoblade or Ni No Kuni since it comes down to the same basic command you are referring to in turn based games except your are only inputting basic commands for one character instead of 3 or 5.

Ar¢tos · Mar 22, 2018

Turn based combat can create a much more tactical combat type than action type combat. I like to take my time to make decisions and predict the impact of those decisions. I'm always thinking 2-3 turns ahead. Action type combat doesn't give me this.
There is room for both types and nobody is forced to play something they don't like.

RokkanStoned · Mar 22, 2018

Have you played Shadow Hearts and the sequel Shadow Hearts: Covenant? If not, then I wouldn't discount turn-based combat. To me it tends to be much richer than real-time combat, it allows for more planning and it helps you identify with all party members and see their utility. One could easily just discount real time combat as button mashing hell facing the same type of enemies, repeat ad nauseum.

Did I forget to mention that everyone should play the Shadow Hearts games?

Based in alternative history, early 20th century.
Dark JRPG, Lovecraftian elements, with lore behind all enemies.
An active turn-based combat system, where you're constantly struggling with keeping your sanity.
It has a sense of humor.
Atmosphere the game.
The sequel elevates the combat system to a whole new level.
It's sequel series to the PS1 game Koudelka.
It has a whole screen filled with statistics that will torment you.
Even its disturbing parts are hilarious:

Allandor · Mar 22, 2018

I really miss those games. E.g. Final Fantasy nowadays is to much action oriented. The games just play like every other Action-game without this good old round-based (with some tricks to be faster than others) combat system.
E.g. Final Fantasy 15 feeled more like button smashing for me.

Dr. Kitty Muffins · Mar 22, 2018

I love them. If I'm tired and stressed, sometimes my mind can't focus on anything other than a turn-based game.

GenericUser · Mar 22, 2018

I prefer turn based combat. I agree with OP saying it often devolves into pressing the X button again and again, but I really just like the "thought" of being in control of my party. Actions happen when I decide them to happen and not automatically. While turn based combat has its flaws, I don't remember a single action oriented combat system in RPGs, that did things better then a turn based system. Quite the opposite, it's mashing the X button constantly while numbers pop up that you can barely read because of how fast they fly by and how flashy all the effects are. I also want to control every party member in the game. It disconnects me from the characters if they are doing "their thing" without being influenced by my actions.

Worst offenders are the games where the cast constantly has to comment the actions by sayin "ugh" and "iaaahhhh".

Hendrick's · Mar 22, 2018

Turn based combat is not the problem (see Divinity OS), it's poor implementation and random encounters that give it a bad name.

sotojuan · Mar 22, 2018

What's the alternative? Mashing A/X button for 5 mins until the enemy dies? Sounds like the same thing at best. Problem is most JRPGs become easy after the midway point because game designers make it very easy for players to overpower their characters, even without grinding.

Turn based combat is fine, but it has to be fast and not tedious. Meaning, get in and out of normal battles quickly, Problem is, 3D and CD-based JRPGs really slowed down their battles either for technological or aesthetic purposes. Another thing is encounter rate - it should be either configurable, on the low side (particularly in world maps), or Persona/modern DQ style (enemies appear randomly in the map but you can choose to battle them).

Zog · Mar 22, 2018

shark sandwich said:
It seems like many long-time JRPG fans have such nostalgia for the turn-based games of old.

Personally I’m glad to see them go. My problem with turn-based battles is that sure, they might feel really interesting and strategic...the first few battles. Then you are just going through the same motions and solving the same puzzle over and over. You might fight 20-30 battles in a dungeon which consist of the same 3-4 enemy configurations. And usually they pose no real threat to you anyway. It sucks so bad being pulled out of exploration so your party can stand there in a line waiting for your commands, all so that you can defeat the same level 3 slimes you have wiped the floor with so many times before.

To start with, JRPG's are my favorite genre and have been for 25 years. Having said that, try enabling a no random battles code and you'll see just how dull the games are without random battles. Random battles are an important part of the gameplay.

I’m convinced that many JRPGamers are just playing for the little dopamine hits that come from seeing your EXP and damage numbers go up over time, not for the sheer thrill and strategy of the battle. Nobody would play these games if they weren’t constantly leveling up. Just look how many gamers were outraged that you don’t gain AP for the first 3 chapters of FF XIII.

Leveling up is what makes it feel like you are making progress and not just going from level to level without a point other than getting to the end. This is how I feel when playing a 2D platformer and I ask myself why am I playing this? It's only fun for a few minutes. I am pretty sure that you did gain AP the first 3 chapters of FF13 but you couldn't access it until later on. The whole game worked that way, you might hit a level cap but you just stock up on AP.

“BUT I like being in control of my whole party!!!” IMO this is bullshit. In most JRPGs you are making only the most brain dead simple decisions anyway. Heal if HP low, otherwise gang up on one enemy at a time until they all die. No other tactics needed unless it’s a boss fight.

It's better than having your party do something stupid like casting cure over and over again when the enemy is one hit away from defeat. FF13 was bad about this and since all HP was restored at the end of battle the cure wasn't needed.

Bottom line, I’m glad that the genre has mostly moved past this style of gameplay. And the few titles that stuck with it (e.g. Persona) at least have enough challenge and strategic depth to justify it, even if they’re not my cup of tea.

Ok.

NovumAngel · Mar 22, 2018

sotojuan said:
What's the alternative? Mashing A/X button for 5 mins until the enemy dies? Sounds like the same thing at best. Problem is most JRPGs become easy after the midway point because game designers make it very easy for players to overpower their characters, even without grinding.

Turn based combat is fine, but it has to be fast and not tedious. Meaning, get in and out of normal battles quickly, Problem is, 3D and CD-based JRPGs really slowed down their battles either for technological or aesthetic purposes. Another thing is encounter rate - it should be either configurable, on the low side (particularly in world maps), or Persona/modern DQ style (enemies appear randomly in the map but you can choose to battle them).

This was the best part about the Bravely games, you could double the encounters or even turn them off completely if you wanted to.

DonF · Mar 22, 2018

I don't like you, I miss turn based.

V2Tommy · Mar 22, 2018

Turned-based in the best. It's just a different type of game; one that I happen to enjoy. Real-time combat just makes it an "adventure game" and not an RPG. I don't consider Final Fantasy VI and Secret of Mana to be the same genre at all.

trufflepigg · Mar 22, 2018

Earthlock, festival of magic was really good, I just played it. Yeah, its repetitive like you explained, but damn it's what I enjoy now and again.

woopWOOP · Mar 22, 2018

For dungeon exploring type RPG with battle encounters, yeah sure, it's not super great

but I love my turn-based tactical RPGs man

TFGB · Mar 22, 2018

I much prefer turn based combat to real-time action orientated (J)RPGs. Turn based combat gives me time to think and, in a way, most of the hard work is done for you. I don't need to engage my brain as much.

With real-time action combat, it's less predictable and easier for you to get your arse handed to yourself on a platter. Real-time combat is also just as susceptible to tedium as turn-based battles, maybe more so when grinding. At least with turn-based combat you may have the opportunity to 'semi-auto' many battles with a few button presses, whereas with real-time combat you need to physically take control of the situation unless you're lucky enough to find enemy spawns that can be taken care of with rubber banding and/or a turbo controller.

Zog · Mar 22, 2018

thomasjast said:
Turned-based in the best. It's just a different type of game; one that I happen to enjoy. Real-time combat just makes it an "adventure game" and not an RPG. I don't consider Final Fantasy VI and Secret of Mana to be the same genre at all.

Right and in the end even though Secret of Mana is an action RPG it is just pressing the attack button over and over and grinding if you want to build up your magic which you will do by repeatedly casting it over and over again on weak enemies.

Dubloon7 · Mar 22, 2018

OP: NOPE! You mean to tell me the FF13, FF15, KH, etc. games are better games than FF1-10, Dragon Quest, Xenogears, radiant Historia, etc.?

Play the games you want. But just because you grew apart from a system that has tradition and plays well from your desires doesn't mean these better systems are better left untouched. I personally prefer turn-based combat than mashing XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (KH)

Z3M0G · Mar 22, 2018

I see Ni No Kuni 2's combat and design and I think "Shit... this is how they should have done the FFVII remake..."

(btw, I still love turn based combat too.)

Bolivar687 · Mar 22, 2018

I just don't understand why anyone would want fewer options available in the market, to actively wish that other gamers no longer get to play the kinds of games they enjoy.

The problems cited in the OP are applicable to literally every game ever made. Every game ever generally throws the same 3-4 enemies at you in a level and its gameplay gets repetitive. Much like not everyone can make an engaging turn based JRPG, not everyone can make an engaging shooter, MOBA, or open world action game. How could you possibly derive joy from others not even trying anymore?

I don't think it's a coincidence JRPGs began to fade in prominence at the same time big budget titles began ditching turn based systems. If it's not turn based, then you're not really playing an RPG.

Achelexus · Mar 22, 2018

Turn based is great if done well.

Garnox · Mar 22, 2018

JimboJones said:
Yeah mashing the A or X button is much more interesting.

Came to say this.

Nothing wrong with turn based. A lot of the time, enemies offer different resistances and strats to take down, so possibly yes, after the first completion of a game, you’ll know what works, but that initial playthrough you might have to actually take your time and figure out which command inputs actually work.

It’s not mindless button mashing of some of these new Dynasty Warrior-esque action RPG’s.

I think some new forumla needs to be developed all together. As frustrating as Legend of Dragoon could be at times, those times hits kept me frosty and made the battles more interesting/investing. Something like that could be a breath of fresh air.

OH-MyCar · Mar 22, 2018

Why not just ask for more JRPGs? It's ridiculous & short-sighted to proclaim love for a struggling genre and then say "well I'm glad another huge part of it is dead". It's like you're one of the last people aboard the Titanic, bragging about your seats.

I love turn-based games and hope that the JRPGs you like all eventually become scripted corridor shooters.

Zog · Mar 22, 2018

Garnox said:
Came to say this.

Nothing wrong with turn based. A lot of the time, enemies offer different resistances and strats to take down, so possibly yes, after the first completion of a game, you’ll know what works, but that initial playthrough you might have to actually take your time and figure out which command inputs actually work.

It’s not mindless button mashing of some of these new Dynasty Warrior-esque action RPG’s.

I think some new forumla needs to be developed all together. As frustrating as Legend of Dragoon could be at times, those times hits kept me frosty and made the battles more interesting/investing. Something like that could be a breath of fresh air.

Timed hits should be an optional way to do bonus damage/bonus defense but not required. Doing no damage or 1 damage if you don't use timed hits is a fast way to ruin a battle system.

NahaNago · Mar 22, 2018

So the OP just doesn't like turn based combat since throwing the same enemy at you over and over again is pretty much what the majority of games do. I was thinking about this and I was thinking that maybe go tactics like and make the whole battle scene a gigantic dungeon and make the exploration and story a different area or you could make them available after you fight in that area.

iconmaster · Mar 22, 2018

I dunno, I'm really enjoying the Octopath Traveler demo; and it's not in spite of the turn-based combat.

Danjin44 · Mar 22, 2018

FUCK NO!!! There is room for both. Press turn battle system in SMT/Persona is my favourite combat system in any JRPG, I will pissed if disappears.

Lionel Richie · Mar 22, 2018

Turn based combat usually involve some interesting strategy, it's like a chess match where you don't have to think on the fly and you can plan and stuff. It's very satisfying when you beat an enemy by trying something different. Action oriented games are more about skill than strategy (or in the case of the modern western AAA game, neither) and while that's nice too, there's plenty of room for both.

Trogdor1123 · Mar 22, 2018

Im pro turn based myself. Give me a true ff6 sequel!

noqtic · Mar 22, 2018

I don't mind turn-based combat as long as the combat system is fun and actually requires some thought into what I should do next. I hate random battles though, there are only a few games that I can still play with that tired method.

Give me a battle system like the Baten Kaitos series,Persona, hell even FFX-2(which is drastically underrated) and I'm happy.

edit -- Somebody mentioned turn-based strategy games and I forgot that I love those as well.

Zog · Mar 22, 2018

I have to say that I prefer random battles to enemies on the screen for two reasons. 1) It's ugly having the enemies on the screen messing up the scenery. 2) It creates a new problem, respawn rate.

Example, think back to the first boss battle in Earthbound. You needed to do a bit of grinding to fight the boss but you likely spent more time running around town so the enemies around the arcade would respawn than in battle and what were the respawn rules anyway? I sure didn't know. Random battles would have eliminated this problem.

KyanMehwulfe · Mar 22, 2018

Maybe it's because I haven't really played JRPGs since FF12/Suikoden5/etc, so turn-based is already an old thing no longer really around to me, but every time I do boot up FF7 on PS4 it's because how much I miss and enjoy its turn-based combat.

Zog · Mar 22, 2018

I also want to point out how ATB is actually slower than turn based. With both systems the minimum amount of time to come full circle is the amount it takes for everyone to take their turns. Now with turn based it's exactly that, 4 characters and 4 enemies means that on turn 9 we will have come full circle but with ATB it means adding on time for the ATB bars to fill up and we all know that we spend most of our downtime in battle waiting on those bars. The worst example is Final Fantasy 9.

Ridcully · Mar 22, 2018

I think the decision to move away from it and desperate aping of action games marks a clear regression in the genre. FFXV is strictly worse than XIII in the depth of its mechanics, game feel, and encounter design.

Danjin44 · Mar 22, 2018

Ridcully said:
I think the decision to move away from it and desperate aping of action games marks a clear regression in the genre. FFXV is strictly worse than XIII in the depth of its mechanics, game feel, and encounter design.

I personally hated FFXV's combat. This the first time playing action RPG that felt like I wasn't fully in control of my character. I really wish either turn base or full on KH style combat.

Narroo · Mar 22, 2018

You know what? You're an ass OP. You're just gloating over people missing a genre they like, no one wants to listen to that.

Airola · Mar 22, 2018

sponk said:
I prefer turn based combat. I agree with OP saying it often devolves into pressing the X button again and again, but I really just like the "thought" of being in control of my party. Actions happen when I decide them to happen and not automatically. While turn based combat has its flaws, I don't remember a single action oriented combat system in RPGs, that did things better then a turn based system. Quite the opposite, it's mashing the X button constantly while numbers pop up that you can barely read because of how fast they fly by and how flashy all the effects are. I also want to control every party member in the game. It disconnects me from the characters if they are doing "their thing" without being influenced by my actions.

Worst offenders are the games where the cast constantly has to comment the actions by sayin "ugh" and "iaaahhhh".

This post has the truth.
The bolded part is the truth.

The combat system ruined Xenoblade games for me. I liked almost everything else in them but I lost interest to both games (the Wii and Wii U games) because of the combat.

cartman414 · Mar 22, 2018

The Sane Psycho said:
Maybe more devs should add something spicy to the combat like the timed hits of Super Mario RPG/Paper Mario/Mario & Luigi, the combinations of Chrono Trigger, or the rock paper scissors type effectiveness of Pokemon.

The RPS from Pokemon quickly grew tiresome IMO.

Big0Bear · Mar 23, 2018

I love turn based. I’m getting sick of all the mmo ish games. Love turn based combat with crazy magic and special moves. I didn’t like ffxv Because the combat Felt like an mmo but that’s just my feelings on it. I do like XBC2 and P5

Breakage · Mar 23, 2018

There's something endearing about the old-school feel of turn-based combat. I just don't like the chaotic nature of real time battles in JRPGs. It feels mindless, especially with all those numbers and status indicators flying around.

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I’m glad turn-based combat in JRPGs has lost popularity

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