Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
If SteamDeck was PC gaming's main dev platform, it would be true.
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PS6S Budget Model Rumored at $350-$550 According to MLID
- Thread starter Merline
- Start date
Tobimacoss
Member
I am well aware, but it still isn't beating the Steam Machine let alone PS5 in GPU compute. Yes, it will effectively produce better image in many cases due to newer advancements. If they can do slightly higher clocks, it could reach 7 Teraflops.
Canis = 16 CU RDNA 5
Series S = 20 CU RDNA2
Steam Machine = 28 CU RDNA 3
PS5 = 36 CU RDNA2
Xbox Ally X = 16 CU RDNA 3.5
Tobimacoss
Member
That's exactly what PS6S is, the Canis chip that goes in the handheld. 16 CU RDNA5 GPU, 24 GB LPDDR5X RAM, 4 Core Zen 6C CPU plus 2 Zen 6LP cores for OS.
People assumed Sony wouldn't mandate handheld support, but they will 100% mandate support for a Home Console. Canis will have mandatory support regardless of what happens.
That's a 16x upscale which is very hard to do without image artifacts/blur. Upscale cost is also based on output resolution, so if we assume 1080p upscale FSR5/PSSR3 is around 2ms on Canis then 4K upscale would be about 8ms.
Even with higher clocks from a docked configuration it's likely 5-6ms minimum, so devs would need to do extra optimization for docked config just to hit the same FPS as handheld mode.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
7 TeraFLOPs mean exactly what? I mean RDNA 2 in consoles is doing single issue FP32 and later are doing dual so now what?
FLOPs are useless measure.
Just multiply CUs by max clock and adjust generations per IPC increase.
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Why would Sony divert chips for the handheld to try and sell a second home console at the same time they have have a main home console(PS6 Orion) in a mobile first world? Its not like TSMC has enough capacity for all these chips. It will just lead to all sorts of marketing issues, production line and developer issues. I think Sony is focused on one mobile device offering 1080p gaming on the go at 30 fps and one next gen home console running games at 4k 30- 60 fps. That is much much easier especially considering that there will likely be a midgen pro console
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Support for higher end systems has never been better for pc.
Tobimacoss
Member
Because Orion is too expensive, and Handheld won't sell as much as a cheap home console could. You take away the screen, battery, controller components of a handheld, simply put the internals inside a small TV box, that makes for a decent entry level console. Good enough for the casual userbases.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
They might if they end up with lots of binned Canis that blow past their wattage budget? But yields on 135mm² SoC can't possibly get tgat bad. LOL
Huh, I always assumed Sony would mandate Canis support.
And I was always planning on buying one so... cheers to Sony
Hmmm, Its not going to happen because most displays(TVs) now are 4K, for a home console you need it to target 4K unless you think they are going to use Canis to run next gen games at 4K which I highly highly doubt. Sony will just have anyone that wants mobile gaming or cheaper entry into next gen get a 1080p mobile device. A home console using hw meant for 1080p gaming is much much worse than the Series S situation. It will just be a marketing, economic nightmare. And basically it will get zero development support since devs will first build on the base PS6 devkit then get the game running in "low power" mode for the portable targeting 1080p at 30 fps. The primary development hw for the whole gen is the base PS6 console, the idea is since we live in a mobile first world, the portable will sell well so if it doesnt sell well what would incentivize devs to keep on developing for the "PS6 lite"? Unless the PS6 lite outsells the base PS6 Orion which would be another issue if it happened. But looking at how poorly the Series S performed I wouldnt count on consumers buying a PS6 lite that cant even run 4K games over the PS5 pro
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I think this is the gap in some of MLID's analysis, he underestimates the Software Development angle. So I'm not surprised he's pushing the PS6 lite angle but thats just his view not an actual product Sony is going to ship. Because Sony has to look at market segmentation, production lines, software hardware support, consumer trends. Releasing two consumer products at once is already going to be a tougher job. 3 at the same time is asking for it. I dont think developers would be very enthusiastic about 3 new Sony devices unless the requirements are super sharp and barely change. Which never happens on any serious project. Its not as easy as just putting the Canis APU in a home box and then its done.
Switch 2 exists
Salty Pickle
Member
If the Series S came with ~16 gb of ram it would've been fine.
Luckily this time around they will stuff it with enough ram so it wouldn't be another Series S situation.
Tobimacoss
Member
Exactly. Canis is more powerful than Switch 2, Series S, more powerful than Xbox Ally X, almost as powerful as the delayed Steam Machine but more advanced upscaling/raytracing. Only thing beating Canis other than the big consoles would be Magnus AT4 based handhelds or entry level consoles with 24 CUs, but they won't reach its price points.
It should be fine. A $349 Canis TV box, ($299 during sales) would be massive for casuals.
Bojji
Member
SteamDeck is fully optional. PS6 HH may or may not be forced on devs by Sony.
Shogmaster
Sloppy seconds
Even with 5M base, SteamDeck is more like PC dev afterthought. LOL
I'm sure there will be a strong coercion at the very least for PS6P support. LPM for new PS5 games are pretty much a mandate is what's been insinuated by leaks.
riko
Member
It's an estimation from BoM. The question is always how much margin Sony will want. Historically the margin decision is made VERY close to release.
midnightAI
Member
They'll be PS6, why would they move away from that?
One thing MS has completely fucked up on is the naming of it's consoles, it's completely confusing for buyers (especially moms buying Christmas presents). Just number the damn things, Nintendo isn't much better
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midnightAI
Member
Until Sony says so we don't know either way, and I don't think it will have mandatory support I think they'll leverage what they have done with Portal to support all games.
ComboBongo
Member
According to MLID, Sony might be working on a cheaper PS6S type console alongside the main PS6.
The idea is basically a cut down version of the same APU used in the PS6 handheld, just without the screen and battery. So more like a small traditional living room console focused on efficiency and cost rather than high end performance.
If this turns out to be real, pricing could land somewhere around $350 to $550, making it the entry level option in a possible three tier setup. PS6 as the premium machine, a handheld in the middle, and this budget box at the low end.
Honestly it feels like Sony does not really have much of a choice here. If they want to get back to something like 100 million+ consoles sold again, they will probably need a cheaper entry point like a PS6S. A single high priced flagship console alone just will not be enough to reach those mass market numbers.
It feels a bit like Sony going back to a PS4 style strategy again, pushing aggressive pricing to expand the ecosystem and keep momentum going.
How do you watch that, listen to his speculative ideas about a home console with the Canis APU (he's speculated about this many times before) and then post it on here as if it's a rumour?
Miles708
Member
Weak PS6? I'm good with my underused PS5, thanks.
1000$ PS6? I'm good with my underused PS5, thanks.
Can't make a new console at a competitive price? I'm good with my underused PS5, thanks.
Not my problem. I have other stuff to do than care about the margins of a mega corporation.
1000$ PS6? I'm good with my underused PS5, thanks.
Can't make a new console at a competitive price? I'm good with my underused PS5, thanks.
Not my problem. I have other stuff to do than care about the margins of a mega corporation.
Physiognomonics
Member
I don't believe it. The handheld will already do this job plus having a screen to compete against Switch.
The era of cheap and weak fully home machines is over, a screen is needed in those machines nowadays.
They better manufacture PS5 using a 3nm die, which they'll probably do anyways and it will be their last "cheap" fully home console.
The era of cheap and weak fully home machines is over, a screen is needed in those machines nowadays.
They better manufacture PS5 using a 3nm die, which they'll probably do anyways and it will be their last "cheap" fully home console.
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J Required
Banned
What about clocks, what about RT HW?, what about ML capabilities?.. did you just focus in one stagnating element of GPUs (raster) to prove a point?
Cmon man you are better than this. Lol
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Bojji
Member
RT and ML will matter much more in the future, but rirght now still 90% of games (and over 95% of console games) are raster only.
J Required
Banned
They do matter alot TODAY! Look at Switch 2 (with limited ML) vs Series S
Cains will be a monster vs Switch 2 with more advanced features.
Tobimacoss
Member
Not sure what point you are trying to make. I already said it would have superior raytracing and upscaling capabilities than all of those. But as KeplerL2 stated in last page that the device can't clock too high no matter the TDP. I mean, Canis would make a great entry level console/streaming box if price can be around $349. Sony should allow 4k/120 Orion streaming on Canis, that should cover most headaches regarding mandatory support, it would have AV1 hardware decoders.
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Bojji
Member
It looks to be about 2x Switch 2 in all aspects.
Series S may lose in some games with image quality, but it absolutely destroys switch 2 in performance, both in CPU and GPU raw power.
KungFucius
King Snowflake
If they truly are going to have a handheld, just make it dockable and that's you second sku. You could go with a version of that without a screen and separate dock for maybe 100-150 less. I mean why not? It really depends on how they execute this dual spec setup. Seems to be working fine with the Pro. This would likely add a handheld mode that is reduced from the docked mode but that should be a very straight forward difference.
If they truly want PS6 to be the best place to play, they need to provide reasonable options for all playstyles. I also would really appreciate being able to use my PS5 controllers. I have so many fucking controllers in my house, Sony, MS, Nintendo, 8bitdo, maybe Steam controller2, and a draw of discarded ones.
I'm probably in for a dockable handheld and one of the consoles depending on performance and probably what I can score a preorder for.
If they truly want PS6 to be the best place to play, they need to provide reasonable options for all playstyles. I also would really appreciate being able to use my PS5 controllers. I have so many fucking controllers in my house, Sony, MS, Nintendo, 8bitdo, maybe Steam controller2, and a draw of discarded ones.
I'm probably in for a dockable handheld and one of the consoles depending on performance and probably what I can score a preorder for.
J Required
Banned
I don't believe this rumor one bit, Playstation 6 lineup should be:
PS6P: Handheld
PS6: Stationary console.
Both MUST play ALL PS6 games.
Sony can release Pro model down the line but for launch, this should be it. They shouldn't confuse developers with multiple SKUs configurations (I don't buy the scalability thing) we are talking consoles with lower level access not PCs.
PS6P: Handheld
PS6: Stationary console.
Both MUST play ALL PS6 games.
Sony can release Pro model down the line but for launch, this should be it. They shouldn't confuse developers with multiple SKUs configurations (I don't buy the scalability thing) we are talking consoles with lower level access not PCs.
No wonder we get the shit we are getting when people like you call DLSS, FSR optimization tools. Pathetic
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bitbydeath
Member
I don't believe it either.
It'd be a lot more powerful than the PS5, yet cheaper than the PS5?
The only way it'd work would be if they discontinued PS5.
It'd be a lot more powerful than the PS5, yet cheaper than the PS5?
The only way it'd work would be if they discontinued PS5.
It all depends on the prices.
A 599$ handheld and a 799$ console with very little room to cut prices in the future given current market realities is going to shrink their market to definetly less than 100m users.
Mainstream isn't going to buy at those prices regardless of the games.
If they want something to reach these people they need to figure it out at launch.
It makes sense to replace the old PS5 with something targeting a 399-499$ price offering similar power but with modern features.
It's easy to do that using the handheld SOC as a basis.
twilo99
Member
It's much easier to implement new ideas when you have the majority of the market share…
If Sony does a series S it will be largely celebrated and it will sell very well.
Tobimacoss
Member
You do realize MLID is the one who has provided us 95% of the specs regarding Orion, Canis, and Magnus. He has seen documents that led to his speculation.
Nothing is confusing for devs, it would still be two PS6 optimization targets for devs.
Where do you get that it would be a lot more powerful than the PS5? The handheld is roughly 60% of PS5. But the TV box could go up to 70%, and much more power efficient.
PS5 will likely be discontinued production and sale.
J Required
Banned
They don't have to sell 100m PS6s .. they would still have huge number of active PS5.
That's the same strategy as Microsoft's "we have a platform for those who can't afford our new hardware, stick with your outdated hardware"
Yeah I mean it will work in the first two years but they are risking to lose those people.
Having a cheap model for those that don't care about portability based on the handheld hardware makes a lot of business sense if games will have to support the handheld anyway.
If the handheld is like the Switch and they can launch it at 499$ then the cheap model could be redundant but this thing will be a high end handheld launching at 599$ best case.
They have a hole to fill and either they do it at launch or they'll be left hoping these people will be happy to stick with PS5 forever indeed, again not a good forward thinking strategy.
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GoldenEye98
posts news as their odd job
Honestly I think they kinda have to do this. I suspect very large chunk of consumer want a non-expensive traditional console. Neither the handheld or reg PS6 will be that.
Also if it's just taking the guts of the handheld and putting it into a box...there is going to be economies of scale benefits there for both models.
Also if it's just taking the guts of the handheld and putting it into a box...there is going to be economies of scale benefits there for both models.
bitbydeath
Member
It would be using all the latest features (like RDNA5) making it a lot more efficient than the PS5 and has a lot more RAM to boot.
Tobimacoss
Member
Correct, but it's still not more powerful. It doesn't need to be. Most indies, AA games would probably run and look better on Canis, which compromise 96% of games anyways. And the AAA games could vary based on certain things.
lastmessiah
Member
Funny watching all of this "speculation" that a Sony handheld (which likely won't even happen) is going to be some "next gen" (which doesn't exist) device that plays "PS6" games. I won't even bother bringing up the power envelopes and limitations of handhelds/portables.
Miyazaki’s Slave
Gold Member
Pricing model already exists.
899 to 1049 for the actual console.
599 to 699 for the portable and the PS down spec edition.
We will not be seeing sub 500 new consoles from Sony or MS going forward.
899 to 1049 for the actual console.
599 to 699 for the portable and the PS down spec edition.
We will not be seeing sub 500 new consoles from Sony or MS going forward.
StereoVsn
Gold Member
The main question is how much better would PS6 S be vs PS5? For majority of people keeping PS5 and not buying this PS6 Lite would likely be the better move unless it's a significant difference.
If this has handheld internals it's likely to be weaker than PS5 on GPU side.
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